Blake Bell's Blog, page 6

My interview with Josie DeCarlo P3

We've come to the end of our celebration of the late Josie and Dan DeCarlo (and what a better way than with the above 1940s piece by Dan; an elaborately-drawn envelope for, no doubt, another love letter to Josie). She will live on in memories and in Dan's artwork, immortalized as the Josie in Dan's creation, "Josie & The Pussycats". Here's Part 1 and here's Part 2. Part 3 finished off the original interview, done for their chapter in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002, and adds the follow-up questions at the end. RIP Josie...

Josie DeCarlo P3taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for  "IHave To Live With This Guy!"

BB: Stop me if I'm being insensitive here, but financially,with no pension from Archie, are doing okay? Are you and the grand kids doingokay?JD: It's a little better off because we have theguardianship of one of our granddaughters. It will be three years that we haveJessica. That was difficult because it was like starting life all over againwith a teenager. It's very nice at times, then at other times it can bedifficult because times have changed.But it's not easy because of adifferent situation, which I hope will go well on Tuesday. I never applied formy citizenship papers because I never understood the need. I was married to anAmerican; I was living in the country that I felt was mine now. I was anAmerican but it wasn't down on paper.Then I went to work, I raised thechildren until they went to college and then I went to work and time went byand I would always say, "one of these days I have to become an American" andtime would pass. It's only last year that I say that I have no more excuses. Iwant to be an American citizen and I applied but times have changed. You don'tbecome an American citizen as easily as was fifty six years ago when I couldhave got my papers right away.It took one year. It was the beginningof March, a year ago, that I applied for my citizenship. They told me that itwould probably take a year and a half to two years before I became a citizen.That is very difficult right now, for me, because I am going in for aninterview on Tuesday. I don't know when I will be sworn in but until I am notsworn in, the money that we have has to be put in trust, otherwise I'm going tobe taxed fifty percent.The American people, every timesomebody passes away, the tax is 25 percent and it's double for me because I'mnot a citizen. So that is a really big worry for me. If it goes well Tuesday,they'll tell me that I'll be sworn in soon. I'm going to find out someinformation. They told me it might take three weeks to six months. Theycouldn't give me an exact time so I don't know. If it takes too long, the moneywe have, has to be put in a trust fund, in a government trust fund. So I willget taxed only when I am a citizen.
BB: So when Dan past away, any moneys that werein his name or under your name or under both of your names?
JD: Under his name but he had a will and the willwas that his possessions were to come to me. That's when the trouble comes in.
BB: So any funds that were available, all thesudden were frozen to avoid that double taxation? Would he get a G.I. Pension?
JD: No.
BB: From being in the war I would have thought...
JD: No, just the social security, both of us -him and I.
BB: But you guys were able to pay off the housebefore hand?
JD: The house is paid off yes. But there arestill the taxes. The taxes have gone up since we live here. The bank has openedone account for me so we have some money to survive. We have to actually waitto see what happens and then I just want to know how long it's going to take tofind out what happens to the money and when it will be available.
BB: So at the same time you're dealing with thesuddenness and the shock and then the government of the country you've lived infor sixty years is not exactly helping out.
JD: And we lived by the law. We paid our taxes.We did everything we were supposed to do. Actually there is no exception foranyone - you just have to go through the red tape.
BB: So you've had Jessica with you there sinceDan passed away? How much of a help is that?
JD: Well, I don't know if it's a help. I'm a helpto Jessica. She's a wonderful child but she's a teenager.
BB: How old is she now?
JD: Seventeen.
BB: You've, more or less, raised her for the lastthree years?
JD: The last three years were an adjustment tomake on both parts because I was raised very strict so I expect certain thingsand, for her, she went through terrible times so she's had to deal with allthat.
BB: Were you more of a disciplinarian than Danwas? With James and Dan Jr., were you the disciplinarian of the family?
JD: She was too young to remember when her fatherdied. When James passed away, she was only six years old. After that she had aterrible time with her mother who had a problem.
BB: We don't have to go there if you don't wantto go there. I don't want to make you uncomfortable.
JD: Then she lost her grandfather. It's difficultfor that child.
BB: I can't imagine. Even though my parentsdivorced when I was at a young age, I at least felt that I had that foundationof love and support. No matter what kind of troubled times there might of beenI always felt that if I fell that somebody would catch me and that was a bighelp, as I'm sure you and Dan have been to her.
JD: Yes, and still today, I want to be here forher. I just feel she's too young to really be on her own. I want to make surethat when she makes a decision, that it's time for her to leave when it's timefor her to leave. But I'm going to do everything in my power to try to get herto understand that here she has a roof over her head, and that I love her andam concerned about her future.
BB: So, keeping Dan's memory alive; you said youwere going to go to conventions and this lawsuit is still going to be pursued,as you say, for the future generations. Do you see the other project you werediscussing... was there a name to that project with the three girls living inthe lower-east side?
JD: It was called Jesse. We felt that becauseJessica could not contribute to the making of the book, we gave the book hername.
BB: So you're planning on developing that?
JD: I don't know if I can. Who would draw her?
BB: There are people who were very inspired byDan's work. Like I said, Batton Lash was a huge fan of Dan's work.
JD: If I could find someone and they would haveto be approved by Dan Fogel to see. Actually, I'm in contact with Dan and weare trying to find a way. Because if there were someone to draw, we wouldgladly make it come true. I think the idea is wonderful.
BB: Who exactly is Dan Fogel for the record?
JD: He's not an artist. He is in his own rightbut he does have all the books, he's not a collector either. He sells a lot ofstuff at the convention.
BB: Like comic books and original art?
JD: Yes, right. So he has a lot of knowledge ofart but he just can't draw.
BB: How did you guys meet up?
JD: At a convention.
BB: He was a big fan of Dan's? And he lives kindof in your area?
JD: No, he lives in California.
BB: He was helping out on this Jesse strip?
JD: He was the one who was going to launch it.There was a room where people were invited to come and listen to thingshappening in the art world. That's when there was like a meeting of Dan, DanFogel and his partner - a few other people were there - and they were askingthe public some questions, how they felt and wanting to have feed back fromthen to see what they thought about the idea.
BB: Dan Fogel was the backer of this project?
JD: Yes.
BB: It would be great if something could come ofthat.
JD: Yes, this is what Dan Fogel and I willdiscuss now, if we could find an artist who wants to take over the art. Christycan draw but I don't think she could carry on the cartoon. She very gifted andvery artistically inclined. She works on so many projects. She works with beadsand flowers and she can draw also. But I don't think it would be easy for herto write and draw and she's very good at writing.
BB: Do you socialize with other artists' wives?
JD:  Webelonged to the NCA, which is the National Cartoonists Association. All thecartoonists when they get together, it's like they "click" and they can't leaveone another. You can't pull them apart. They have seminars and so they could begone sometimes the whole day and all the women are there alone.So we had a meeting and the wife ofthe new president that year say to us, "I would like to ask all of you what youladies would like to do while our husbands are busy at their seminar." And wesaid, "I don't know." She said, "oh well I don't know," and she made somesuggestions. I raised my hand and said, "I have an idea, let's have grouptherapy," and everybody laughed. We complain about the same things. "Let's washour dirty laundry together!"
BB: You are all sisters really, you all have thesame types of stories?
JD: "They work too many hours, they do this, theydo that." The few complaints that we had I thought that we should share it anddiscuss it.
BB: I guess Lindy Ayers was at the funeral, wasshe not? You guys know each other fairly well?
JD: Yes.
BB: Were you always at the same tables together?
JD: Not always at the same table, no, but becausewe've had enough time to talk to each other. When they are together, the wholegroup is like one because they click. They admire each other. There is nojealousy among artists. They admire each other's work. It's such a feeling ofadmiration. They give advice to one other – "I'm using this kind of pen, andthis kind of ink - they talk shop all the time because the most important thingin their minds is their work.
BB: Whom did Dan admire? Of whom did he speak sohighly?
JD: He first admired Norman Rockwell. He even dida painting of Norman Rockwell because he wanted to be an illustrator at thebeginning of his art school.
BB: Did that ever bother him that that didn'thappen for him or was he pleased that he made such an impact? Because he mademore of an impact with Archie than he would have ever made, I gather, as anillustrator.
JD: Yes, I agree with you.
BB: Frankly, more people know of Dan's work onArchie than probably Norman Rockwell.
JD: It also stems from the cartoons that he drewwhen was stationed in England. We still have all these cartoons. All thesesituations that he was experiencing, it started right then and there. Itstarted with the war because maybe he felt that there was something specialabout that war that he was in. He was young and he just had to express himself.
BB: Did he talk about the effect? Was he inbattle a lot or was it mainly because he was an artist and he didn't have to gointo battle at all.
JD: No, he wasn't in battle at all. He was mostlya draftsman. He drew pin-ups for the nose of the planes.
BB: Were there other comic book artists that headmired the work of?
JD: Well, I couldn't really say one name inparticular. He loved all type of hard work. He loved to go to the museum. Soit's hard to say whom he admired. The only one I ever heard him talk about wasNorman Rockwell.
BB: When he was working from home, would youdeliver the artwork? Would you take it to the post office? You were thedelivery person?
JD: Yes. Oh yes.
BB: Because Lindy would talk about the samething. If Dick took it into the city, when he was taking it into Timely comics,that was an afternoon wasted because that was an hour or two hours away fromthe drawing table. So you were the delivery person.
JD: That's right. That's what I meant about whatwe were complaining about when we're together. And also we do all the driving.
BB: That can be really rough, sending it in bymail. Was there ever any times where a job was lost?
JD: No, not really. If it was lost, it was fine.Not that I ever remember that anything was ever lost for good. But I lost a lotof work from Dan. I left a portfolio in a taxi that we were taking to aconvention in New York - a value of 4000 dollars of work. Actually, he alwayssaid it was his best work. It was never found.
BB: Oh no! When the conventions start rollingaround, you guys are almost partners in terms of your the sales person outthere, he's drawing-
JD: I felt terrible. I went to every policestation in New York that day. One fan of Dan's went with me because I was sosure that somebody was going to return it because all the work was signed. Danhad just bought a new portfolio so he didn't have his name on it.Naturally, we learned throughexperience that if you take a taxi that you must ask for a receipt. On thereceipt they have the name and number of the taxi and you could get in touchright away with the cab. But I didn't know that. I paid him. Dan was alreadyout of the car and I before I realized the taxi was already gone.
BB: You realized right there on the street?
JD: I kept calling for weeks just to see if itwas at the police station in the lost and found because Dan did the same thingone time. He left his portfolio but he was more fortunate because it was sentback to him.
BB: He left it in a taxicab too?
JD: I don't remember where he left it.
BB: How supportive was he when you left it in thecab? Was he like, "I've done that before, don't worry about it."
JD: I thought he was going to be so furious. Thisis one thing I'm not going to be able to get away with. He's going to get soangry with me but no, he said, "it's done - it's done. If it's gone, it'sgone." He understood that I always had so much in mind. I try to always makelife much easier for him. I take on more than I should.
BB: That's a common theme among a lot of artists'wives. What's something you would have taken upon yourself that your referringto here?
JD: I know that Dan had gone through so much withhis health – the care and the time he had to take for that.
BB: So you're talking the later years then?
JD: Yes.
BB: Who was the person who took on the householdfinances back in the fifties and sixties?
JD: Dan always did that.
BB: He felt comfortable doing that? A lot ofartists are so focused on creating that a lot of the wives have to end uppicking up the other things around the household, things maybe normal 9 to 5erswouldn't have to do just so the husband could create and draw.
JD: Yes, it's the same thing in replacing thatbulb, or trying to find a door that doesn't lock anymore. You know, all theselittle chores that men sometimes had to take on.
BB: So you had to do more of that just to allowhim to draw?
JD: Definitely.
Follow-up taped Sunday June 9th, 2002, by phone from New York for "IHave To Live With This Guy!"
JD: When he was going to Art School, he said theguys would yell after him, "you are wasting your time, DeCarlo!" He didn'twaste his time.
JD: They used to get together in Pennsylvania atFred Waring's - "The Man Who Taught America How To Sing!" - Estate. He wouldinvite all the artists once a year and Dan won third prize in the golftournament. I went down with Dan all the time and got to meet Jackie Gleason.He was exactly the same in person as you saw on the screen. He was a very funnyguy. He liked to drink, too! In between working at home, he would practice his putting.
BB: Is there one cute story about Dan's fans? Aspecific story about a fan of Dan's that "warmed his heart"? Do youremember a specific fan letter that Dan treasured and did he tell you why hetreasured it?
JD: A couple of fan letters Dan saved in hisalbum. One was from his nephew, for whom Dan had done a cartoon, and it said,"Dear Uncle Dan, thank you for your moose picture. I am in cub scouts. How'sAunt Josie. I show my moose picture to my friend and he likes it. Yours truly,Michael." And then on the back, he put, "because my brother is too young, hecould not write to you, so I'll make him sign."            Thingslike this, Dan kept. He used to get SO much fan mail, and couldn't havepossibly kept them. There was another nice one from a girl. She sent Dan apicture and said, "Dear Dan, I was so ecstatic and thrilled when I opened thepackage from you. I know you are busy, so I was happy to know you remember me.I love (and she put 'love' all different ways) the pin-up and the Betty andVeronica story. It is really a special honour to own this item. They are now mymost treasured possession. Thank you for making a dream come true. I just foundanother old Josie from February 1968. Pepper was still around, and I lookforward to your stories and covers. Sometimes I think my daughter like thecovers the best. It was certainly a huge point in my life to meet you. Myfriends are tired of hearing about it." That was from 1997, when he went to aMuseum with an Archie Group.            Therewas a woman who took art class and she made a stain-glass window of Betty andVeronica. It took her a year and then she gave it to Dan about five years ago.It's on the door of his studio. It's takes up about a third of the door. It'squite big and she has Betty and Veronica down to their wastes. She even putreal earrings on their ears. She was inspired so much by Dan's work that shecouldn't keep it for herself.An art teacher in Seattle, a Mr.Hatcher, would teach his group of students (around nine to fourteen years old)cartoons. When we met him in Seattle, he took the children on Sunday as a fieldtrip to meet Dan to have him talk to them. When Dan went to the hospital forthe first time, in the winter of 2000, for his pneumonia, they all drew himsomething, all the drawings in a big envelope, and sent him a get well card. Istill have all those cards.When he passed away, they sent memore condolences. A 14-year-old girl, in particular, is going to be a greatartist for her age. She sent a letter and picture of a little girl crying, herhair covering part of her mouth and eyes, and the tears are coming down. Theletter said, "When you lose someone, it is like your life falls apart. Cloudsseem to cover you, but really a person never dies in your heart. As long as heis there, he will never leave. The love in your heart stays strong and purealways, and the dark clouds shall disappear and the sun will shine through. Behappy, for he hasn't truly left you. He's here shining through you."He would just be happy to read aletter, and sometimes I would have to grab them out of his hand before he woulddiscard it. You can't keep everything.            Ireally became friendly with Lindy Ayers. The conventions were all new to me. Ididn't know what would happen, or what I would have to do. She took time tohelp me and show me the easy way to set up the tables. We did a lot oftraveling together.            Wewere stuck two days in an airport trying to go to Detroit, stuck in a bigstorm. The two artists would discuss business and start sketching. Every twohours, we would go to see if it was going to be the next plane, and by 11pm,they told us there wouldn't be any next plane and to come back at 5 a.m.! Welost one day of the convention, doing sketches, and when we arrived we werevery tired having to set up.            Lindymade things easier for me, and even now I still give her a call when I havequestions to say, "what should I do about this?" She taught me to pack a littlesnack when going to conventions, and now I pack some crackers whenever I go.
BB: You say, to communicate early on, you had touse dictionaries and cartoons. Are there any funny stories that came aboutbecause of the language barrier?
JD: He would do cartoons and would try and writethe captions in French! At least he was trying! When I met Dan, I gave him apicture of me when I was 16 years-old, just as the War was going to start. Hewrote on the back, "Jo Jo Dumont, age sixteen-and-a-half - still no sign ofbrains, Dr. Dan."
BB: You say Dan was a shy guy early on? Is therea story that would symbolize this?
JD: When we met, his shyness came from meetingpeople out of his country. He was more cautious. He was just studying everyone.He would ring my doorbell and I would open it, but there was no one there. Ialways had to look out because he would always step aside to hide. His shynesswas superficial and he quickly outgrew it.            Forthe rest of his life, he used to love to tease the ladies. When he passed someof the ladies he knew, he would poke some of them in the back with his finger,but go so fast that they would turn around and not see anybody! On the cruise,when we had the costume party, he had dressed like a safari hunter with theshorts, the white hat, and cacky pants. He had a gun with a cork on it, andwould shoot the cork into all the ladies' derrieres! He never got slapped inthe face once!
BB: Is there a specific story about the FedericWertham and the Comics Code Authority during the '50s and how much turmoil itcaused?
JD: Dan changed his style. He couldn't not drawthe voluptuous women of Humourama. Dan went to Archie and started to draw theteenage girls, so it didn't affect him as much. We felt it a bit at thebeginning, but it didn't really last. People would ask questions and would wantto know if comics were really that bad.
BB: What kind of music would he listen to backthen when drawing?
JD: He loved Frank Sinatra and Linda Ronstadt. Hefound it was music he could listen to and work at the same time. He liked DeanMartin, and jazz – mostly popular songs that were easy to listen to whenworking. He listened to music not loud, but always in the background. GeneColan would be making them fly!
BB: Any more stories about Vincent and Dan asartists?
JD: Vincent was in the Korean War. When he cameback, Dan said, "you can draw – you are good. We should work together." Danwanted him to learn so he said, "I'll teach you." Vincent never went to artschool, like Dan did, but they were all artistic in his family, like hisfather.
BB: Can you relate some examples of Dan's senseof humour?
JD: When he was a teenager at home, he had fourgirls to tease and his sisters said he was always making them laugh. He was theolder brother, and Vincent was the last born. I think Vincent could have reallybecome a good artist, if he hadn't died so young.
BB: Any other stories about his days working onArchie?
JD: When he first starting working for Archie,Dan would go into New York once a week to the offices. When they moved toMerrimac, Dan would go to Archie at least every other day. He never workedthere – he always worked at home.            Danhad a studio outside of the home when the kids were young, and then moved backhome. He had the studio with Rudy Lapick was inking for Dan because he wantedhim to right there to supervisor. The inkers sometimes could sometimes be verygood, and keep the line like the pencils, and others would not follow. Dan wasalready concerned about that and he thought Rudy would do better if Dan wasright there.            Dan'sstudio was about a fifteen minute drive from our place – maybe about fiveminutes more for Rudy because he was in Yonkers. It was above an art supplystore.            Whenhe would go to Archie once a week to bring the art there, he would socialize abit. Some of the artists would go have a bite to eat. That was Dan's night out!J            Hewould go in every other day because he was working at a much faster pace.
BB: You say "I was always surprised, how canyou always draw something different everyday? How did he do? Coming down in themorning and having to look at a blank sheet of paper and having to putsomething down." Did he tell you how he came up with ideas all the time?Did he do something to inspire himself?
JD: He always had ideas. He would think of ideaswhen he was eating his breakfast. He didn't wait to be face-to-face with thepaper. Sometimes he would voice what he was going to do. He also loved to workwith a good writer when they understood each other. He loved to work withGeorge Gladir. Same thing with Stan Lee. When they worked together, they understoodeach other.            Whenhe was working for Archie, he would get full scripts. He did write sometimes,but he felt that was keeping him up during the night! He was not meant to be awriter, as he prefered to draw.
BB: You say "Well, he realized that hedidn't want to work for them any longer. They gave him that terrible lettertelling him that he was no longer needed. But it's also the fact that he wasbeginning to get very unhappy about what was happening." What was hespecifically getting unhappy about at Archie?
JD: He never really got that much recognition. Hewas getting paid, but he was creating not just Josie, but plenty of newcharacters. He was their man, their most important artist. There were someother who were very good, also, but Dan was also coming up with new ideas, andnot to be recognized after so many years working with the company, it wasdisappointing. Particularly when you don't have even a pension. My job wascertainly not as important as my husband's and I got a pension.            Theygave Dan that letter because he was voicing his displeasure. He was makingwaves. On the day he got the letter, he had already discussed with me before hewent, and said, "Josie, I think today is going to be the day. What do youthink?"            Isaid, "Dan, I've always let you make all the decisions about your career. I cangive you my opinion, but I can't tell you what to do." He said, "but how wouldyou feel?" and I said, "it's not going to change anything between you and I. Ifyou have something to say, say it!" I was very supportive because I knew whatmy husband did for that company.            Hewasn't going there to say, "I'm not going to work here anymore" but that he wasexpecting something more.            Thatwas the day they gave him the letter. They were prepared to give him theletter. They knew he was coming. He did think something might happen, thatthere might be fireworks, but who would have an idea after so many years, to doit so cruelly. When Dan came home, he had to be sad, but he didn't want to showit. I was sad for him. He was worried about all responsibilities because wewere raising a teenager. Dan always felt very responsible for all of us.            Itwas cruel! Dan was already getting on in years. It was the same at the funeral.They didn't send any condolences. I don't care what occurs between people –sometimes you must do what you are supposed to do. Not a word of condolence,and from Victor, just one card – a store-bought card, signed. We receivedhundreds and hundreds of cards and letters and people took time to writeletters, but not Archie Comics.            Victorwas the middle man. Goldwater and Michael Silberkleit.
BB: Can you tell me the story about when youdecided to sue Archie? How much influence did you have? What obstacles did yourun into? Any specific stories about the hardships you faced with the lawsuit?Was there one particular person who supported you?
JD: We didn't really think of suing right away,but we said we have to find a lawyer, to see what our rights are. We werehoping for a percentage on the merchandise. Maybe also a little bonus forcreating the characters. We received no severance pay, nothing.            Iwas supporting him completely because, at that point, my husband needed to dowhat he felt he had to do. In the back of my mind, I was worried. It's the wearand tear on people, but it's probably the same for them, since it's not overfor either party.            Thefans and all the articles were a big help. That's when we started to go toconventions. That was very good for Dan because they would come and say, "it'svery unfair what they are doing to you. We feel bad for you." It was very goodfor Dan to think so many people were behind him. People would come to Dan for asketch and stand there and watch him draw.            Danhad no problem having someone stand over his shoulder when drawing. The kidswould join him in his home studio, and say, "Poppie, why don't you do this?"Dan said, "they think they're better artists than me!" Dan liked all theircriticism because they wanted to feel part of it.
BB: You say, "I raised my hand and said, 'Ihave an idea, let's have group therapy,' and everybody laughed. We complainabout the same things. 'Let's wash our dirty laundry together!" Any otherinteresting stories about "the same things" you and other wives wouldhave to go through married to an artist?
JD: It's funny that the husbands want us to go tothe conventions, but then we don't see them because when we get there, theartists stay glued together!            Dantook care of all the bills, and it is difficult for me now because I have to doit. But if something was broken, I had to try to figure out who I was going tocall to come and repair. Dan was not a handy man. I would say to Dan, "if weturn this faucet off..." and he would say, "no, that won't do it," and I wouldsay, "yes, I'll show you!" In the meantime, he was vert smart since he wasgetting me to do it! "Let's put a chair against that until the repair mancomes," and he would say, "Okay!" and fly out of the room, so as not to getinvolved. Fortunately, he had a lot of good childhood friends who he would getto help out.
BB: Do you remember the worst instance where hewas feeling creatively frustrated with a piece of work? What was the work thatyou remember giving him the most frustration?
JD: Once in a while, he would call me in and Iwould have to hold an object, or bend in a certain way for what he was doing.It's very difficult to work with hands. If someone in the story was carryingsomething, he wanted to capture what it looked like to wrap your fingers aroundsomething. It coudl have been a vase, or a book. Everybody has a different wayof holding things. "How would you hold that?" he would ask me.
BB: When you would go on vacation, would he takea sketchbook?
JD: No, but he would draw on all the tableclothsand we'd come home with this material! He would sketch a building he saw.Whenever we went out for dinner with the children, he was constantly sketchingon paper napkins.            Oncein a while, I would have feelings of neglect, but when he would start to sketchlike that, the kids would join in and sketch too, and I would be picking up allthe pieces of the 'masterpiece' the children were doing. He would always askthe waiter, "can I borrow your pencil?" and they would sometimes say, "if youwill sketch me!"            Wehad this wonderful trip in Canada with Ida and Joe Edwards, one of the threeimportant artists at Archie (with Stan Goldberg). Joe said to me, "I don'tthink Archie understood the importance of the three of us." They should havesent those three men places to promote.            Somebodyhad got in touch with Joe in the mid-'90s – a man named Paul from Edmonton –and he wanted to buy as much artwork as we would sell. We met him in New York,and he invited us in his home, and we had a great time. They took useverywhere. We went to Toronto, the CN Tower. It was so nice to have themalmost treat the artists like celebrities when the men felt they had so littlerespect in the office.
BB: How often would Stan and Joe and Dan see eachother?
JD: When the office was in New York, they wouldall go in once a week. When they moved up here, it was difficult to make thetrip because they lived in Long Island.            Danwent more often because they gave more deadlines to Dan because they knew hewas close to the office, and if they had a rush on something, they would callDan, and he would go. Sometimes, I was a little annoyed with that. I said,"you're in the middle of doing something, and they're interrupting you." Theothers got away without having to put in as many appearances.
BB: What was Stan Goldberg like?
JD: You them together and they glue toeach other. At the museum in Long Island, it was wonderful to see themtogether. There was no jealousy amongst the artists. They admired each other'swork. They would exchange ideas on how they do things. Stan is a littleyounger, and Joe is not feeling well, and is probably not working very muchright now.            We'dsee them at the Christmas parties, and then they stopped them. First, the wiveswere invited to the party and then that all changed.

My interview with Josie DeCarlo P2

Yesterday, we posted Part 1 of my interview with the late Josie DeCarlo. Josie was the basis for her husband Dan's fictional comic-book rock band "Josie & The Pussycats". The above photo (click to enlarge) is Josie in full pussycats attire on a cruise with Dan. Below is P2 of three of the 18000+ words compiled for their chapter in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002. I haven't even looked over this, so I'll be reading it with you for the first time in about 10 years (part 3 tomorrow)...

Josie DeCarlo P2taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for  "IHave To Live With This Guy!"
Blake Bell: Now when he was working at home, when thedoor was closed you wouldn't go anywhere near to his workplace?
Josie DeCarlo: It meant, "don't disturb" when his door wasclosed.BB: Did he listen to music when he was drawing?
JD: Yes.
BB: So that wasn't a distraction? He didn't needabsolute quiet? He could work and still have background music going? I'm alwaysinterested in the process an artist goes through.
JD: I think it's mostly because when you have athought in your mind, and you want to continue it, you don't like to beinterrupted because it could change all the way you're thinking.
BB: But would he come out to you sometimes andsay, "look at this, I'm having a problem, what do you think?"
JD: He just came out to have his lunch. But atthat time, no, he most likely waited for me to have the finished process beforehe would ask me if I see something that needed a little change or somethinglike that.
BB: Would you be focusing on the artwork or wouldyou be focusing on the story or both?
JD: It was both. It was the whole thing. That wasjust my impression. I didn't always think that I might have always been right.It was a feeling, yes I like it or maybe, it was something I could see for Dan,I would mention it. But most usually, whatever I saw that he did, his work, Iliked. I am his biggest fan actually. Whatever he did I loved. I loved hisimagination. I loved his quick wit. There were so many things - I thought, letthe man do what he wants to do. He was in charge of himself. That was a dreamhe had and he wanted to make sure that it would come true.
BB: Was he secure in his ability to do the work.Was he a confident guy or was he, "I don't know if this is working, is thisfunny?" What kind of temperament did he have in that regard?
JD: He was confident of his work.
BB: Sometimes artists are always insecure abouttheir work.
JD: No. This is why Dan talks so much to youngpeople, to young up-and-coming artists. "Please stay with it. If you have adream, believe in your dream" and he always wanted to make sure that he talkedwith the young artists to encourage them.
BB: He's been working on Archie and obviouslyit's a big hit. Do you remember the day when he came home and told you thatthey were selling Archie to Hanna Barbera - that it was going to be on T.V.tomorrow and that they had not consulted Dan and they weren't going to cut himin for a piece of the profits?
JD: Yes, well I thought it was very unfair.
BB: That's pretty early. Obviously everything iswell documented in the last few years of his legal struggles but even back thenhe became quite aware of not creating these charters but other people profitingfrom them when it should have been a shared thing.
JD: Exactly. Because you know what they did theyreally went into merchandise. Dan had done the artwork and he was paid but foreverything else, Dan's ideas, were used.
BB: So right from the start, he had frustrationswith his creations being used and making money for other people when he wasn'tgetting his proper share of it?
JD: Yes he did. He did but because he loved todraw he continued to draw. It was not just Josie - he also created Sabrina. Hewas constantly working on new characters - Valerie, Melody.
BB: I was going to ask you about Melody. Did hebase a lot of his characters on parts of you? We know Josie and the Pussycats,but Melody, a musical character, sounds like you in a way.
JD: Yes, and yet I don't relate to it that much.
BB: I think the French language itself is a verymusical, with the cadence and everything. Is that something he pulled from you,the way he added the musical notes into her voice.
JD: It could be because actually I am a musician.I study violin for many years. My whole family is a family of musicians.
BB: When did you start the violin, as ayoungster?
JD: Yes, as a youngster. Before the war. The warended my study. I already had four years of music lessons. My father's amusician and my sister's a musician. We all are. In fact, my father had his ownband. And he was so excited and fascinated about the American Jazz.
BB: I was going to ask you about some of hiscreations. Do you remember when he first comes to you with Josie and says,"look I've created this new character?"
JD: Yes. It didn't happen exactly like thatbecause we were going on a cruise. I had a friend, a French girlfriend, who wasso beautiful, she made me a costume and that was the pussycat costume. On thecruise many times they had the little carnival night. When I talked to Danabout it, I was thinking of having this cat costume - the cat with the spots.He thought it was a good idea and when I came in with the costume he actuallydecided that it should be made a little bit sexier. I had a hat with a point onthe forehead, cut around the eyes. He thought it was very nice but it coveredmy whole head and then he decided that we would just use the ear. When we hadthe whole costume together that's when Josie was created actually with thestyle of this costume.
BB: And who was this friend you spoke of who madethe costume for you?
JD: Her name was Ette. She was actually the wifeof a man that Dan had grown up together and was friends. He had also married aFrench girl and we became very good friends. That's how it all start, with thecostume. I went to the hairdresser and came in with the bouffant.
BB: Would he go and draw that out right away?"Wow, that's the picture I have in my head for a character and run right awayand draw the character?"
JD: Yes.
BB: I believe it was created for United Featuresfor a strip and then it was shelved for that Barney's Beads thing? It was funnythat he would shelve that to work on another strip. It was almost like atreasure chest sitting there waiting to be opened. Around that time, once Josie'sabout to come out, how many times is he using you as a model? Like, "I want todraw you for a certain scene in a comic book?"
JD: No, not really. It's all his imagination. Heloved to draw girls so I don't think he needed a model. Although he did sometimeswork with models in his early years. But no, he had a tremendous imaginationand because he loved to draw girls it was something that he actually finallygot most excited about drawing.
BB: It's funny, I was talking to Adrienne Colan,Gene's wife and he would draw such beautiful women as well, and I would say,"did you ever get jealous of all these beautiful women he's drawing all thetime and his like for drawing beautiful women?" It was interesting, she had agood laugh over that and she said, "no, I was his wife and I always feltsecure" and there was never any problems in that regard and it was the same waywith Dan?
JD: Very much the same way, yes.
BB: Do you remember the story behind him creatingSabrina and the first time you knew about that characters existence?
JD: Sabrina, I don't know very much alreadybecause he worked very closely with George Gladis, the writer. Together I thinkthey very much put Sabrina together. I don't remember that much of thedevelopment of Sabrina. It was at one point Valerie was called Pepper in Josieand it was changed.
BB: Why was that changed?
JD: Because at the time I don't think they likedthe idea of having a black girl called Pepper. They thought maybe it would beoffensive. I don't know.
BB: That's one of the few black characters incomics at the time. Do you remember any reaction to that because there was nota lot of black characters in comic books?
JD: Well, I thought it was great of them tointroduce that. The last thing that Dan, his last project, introduced a lot ofSpanish and Latin American people because this is what life is today. He wasjust working with the times I think.
BB: Now, Dan Jr. and Jimmy, now they ended updoing some penciling and inking as well. How big of an influence was theirfather on their desire to be artistic.
JD: No, no, no, they were artistic themselves,but in different ways. They didn't like the idea of working for so little moneyin comics. Dan Jr. has his masters in fine art and loves to paint and Jameswent to the institute of technology and he loves to do sculpture. So theydidn't have much interest but sometimes they had to pay the rent. Once inawhile they would work and do they cartoon and help their father because theywere looking for a little extra money. It's the most difficult thing to breakinto modern art and fine arts. Also Dan Jr had one of his paintings in theMuseum of Modern Art in New York. He is doing well, but you just don't sell.
BB: Once you pass away you sell, I guess. Thevalue seems to go up and they seem to only get appreciated once they're gone.So their careers and inkers and pencilers, for Dan, were just asides.
JD: When they did draw some comics, they had alsothere flare for fashion in comics and that's when I stepped out a littlebecause Dan Jr. was very worldly. He had traveled all over the world andstudied at the University of Rome. He also had a great, great flare forfashion.
BB: How big of an influence were the kids onkeeping Dan up to date?
JD: They did have a great influence, yes. It waswonderful, again at the dinner table, to have those three men discuss and sharetheir ideas. Of my marriage, it's something that touched me very much to think,the closeness of the three of them.
BB: Dan also had his brother, Vince. I'minterested to hear stories about him being Dan's assistant and inker in thesixties and being a part of that whole Archie look. When did that happen?
JD: And that was without any schooling to learnhow to draw. It was just natural.
BB: How did he start working for Dan?
JD: Dan thought that Vincent had the makings ofan artist also and he encouraged it and Vincent did very well. Butunfortunately, he passed away at an early age. He died of lung cancer. The two,their relationship was naturally very good and it effected my husband a greatdeal - baby brother, you know.
BB: How much younger was he?
JD: Vincent was 38, I think, when he passed away.
BB: How much younger than Dan was he - ten yearsyounger?
JD: Oh, more than that.
BB: So he really was a baby brother.
JD: He was the last born. Dan had four sistersand one brother.
BB: So out of high school Vincent started workingwith Dan?
JD: No, he worked with his father in landscaping.From there Dan would give him samples and ask him to ink them and sort of guidehim. Dan really felt that he was so good that he decided that they would worktogether for awhile.
BB: Back in the sixties when Archie was in itsheyday, was there any connection between the fan, the reader, and the artist?Do you remember having any sense that there were hundreds of thousands ofpeople out there reading these things?
JD: Well, yes and no. We knew there were fansbecause we would get fan letters all the time but we never realized the amount,no. I don't think it was as great as it is now. I think more and more peopleare beginning to recognize cartooning as a form of art. It wasn't recognizedthat early in Dan's career.
BB: Before comic book conventions came aroundwould Dan get a lot of fan letters in? Was it related to his Archie workmostly?
JD: Yes.
BB: He had that unique thing working for such anicon like Archie that even the super hero artists of the time, of the sixties,didn't really have because they were just kind of starting. But Dan's artworkappealed to so many people, so many ages. I gather he had a better sense of whowas out there reading. Was he one who was encouraged by the response to hiswork?
JD: Oh sure. And also as the years went by it waslike a study of people who continued to keep in touch. It was not somethinglike receiving one letter and then it was the end. It was like a continuationof receiving a letter from the same person – "I saw your work in that book andI liked it."
BB: Did you ever talk Dan in something or talkhim out of something? Like a project?
JD: No.
BB: He worked pretty consistently for Archie allthe way through.
JD: Yes, I was always amazed at how he never ranout of ideas. I was always surprised, how can you always draw somethingdifferent everyday? How did he do? Coming down in the morning and having tolook at a blank sheet of paper and having to put something down.
BB: Do you remember periods where he would sufferwriters block or artists block? Like, "oh geez, I can't think of anythingtoday."
JD: I don't think it was ever an issue. Maybewhen that happened he would go play a game of golf.
BB: Did you ever see him over the years, jumpinto a project that you thought was wrong to jump into or no?
JD: No.
BB: In the later days he would do Bongo Comicsand those types of things. Did you ever think, "Gee, I don't know if you shoulddo that" or "that doesn't sound right?"
JD: No, because I thought if he wanted to do thatit was up to him. In fact, I liked the idea because it showed that he was soversatile.
BB: So you were raising kids as you were, thatcan be a rather expensive venture. When he's doing Archie and you talk aboutDan Jr. going of to University, what's it like to work for somebody who's anartists and you never know...There's no health benefits?
JD: Yes it's very insecure. There was no pension.From time to time a bonus. But Dan was very productive so he managed to get thetwo boys an education. That's what he was working so hard for, too.
BB: A lot of the wives I've talked to felt that insecurity.What if one of the kids gets sick? What happens if I get sick? Did that play onyour mind a lot in those days or was it just Dan's passion and will...?
JD: It did. Actually they did have coverage atArchie at one point, health coverage. It was not early in his working days. Itcame late.
BB: Now when you say late, are we talkingeighties, are we talking seventies?
JD: I would say eighties.
BB: I got the feeling with your sons, they wouldlook at Dad and say, "that's not a secure way to make a living. I'm going totry something else and go to university and still maintain an artistic quality"but did they learn from that? Is that one of the reasons they didn't get intocomics?
JD: Yes. They used to think that their fathershould not work for so little money. They say that he was great but underpaid.
BB: We spoke of Pepper. Was that based onsomebody you guys knew?
JD: No, it was Ginger. Ginger actually, a friendof one of my son's college friends.
BB: So Ginger was based on somebody you knew butPepper was not? Pepper was just somebody out of Dan's imagination?
JD: Actually, the look of Ginger was very muchthe same with the glasses and the short haircut.
BB: What's it like to live with somebody who'saround all the time because they work from home? What are the positives, andthe negatives if there were any?
JD: We were living well enough to know that wedidn't have to be concerned with putting dinner on the table like during thewar.
BB: I just meant what is it like to have somebodyaround 24 hours a day. That can have some interesting positives because youwere around the person you liked to be with but then you could also feelsometimes like, "geez, we never get away from each other." Was it just a joy tohave him around at home as opposed out at the office all the time?
JD: It was sometimes a joy but it was to a point.When we did have something to do, when we had plans to go out with friends, itwas difficult to pull him out of that room! At that point, I was always goingback all the time, reminding him, "it's six thirty, it's a quarter to seven,it's seven o'clock. We're meeting them at seven thirty, Dan!"
BB: You're first comic book convention. Do youremember the first one you ever went to?
JD: Yes. It was really an experience for mebecause I had never really met the fans. I never know, really, how I wouldreact. But it was very easy since they were there to see Dan and I feltcomfortable about speaking with all of them and actually enjoyed it.
BB: Do you remember approximately when your firstcomic book convention was? Was it in the seventies, the eighties?
JD: Oh, no it was later than that. I would say itwould probably be '85. I didn't go to San Diego right away. It was in New York.
BB: Was it Dan's first convention? Did you guysgo to the first one together?
JD: No, he went many times without me beforethat.
BB: What was his reaction to the first comic bookconvention he went to?
JD: He went with some of the people from Archie.
BB: That must have been quite the experience. Didhe come back and talk about having hands on contact with the fans and gettingthat direct contact?
JD: Oh yes. Other times there were so manywonderful people working with Archie who were very big fans of Dan. They madeit easier for him by going along with him because it's very difficult at aconvention to sketch and to talk to the fans. You have to have someone elsewith you. They were very supportive of Dan and they helped him a lot when theywent along.
BB: There was almost a school at Archie, wasn'tthere? The owners would always hold Dan up and say, "here, draw like Dan. HereDan, teach these guys, bring these guys along." It is that a fair assessment?
JD: Yes, I would say yes. Some would come andbring their work and ask Dan what he thought about and ask him for advice.
BB: Whom do you remember from the Archie days,from the company and those who worked there. Did you socialize with any of thepeople, any of the artists who worked at Archie?
JD: Yes we did.
BB: Who would be some of those? Do you rememberanybody in particular?
JD: Well, we would socialize with...Paulineand...oh dear, I don't have these memories since Dan passed away. I may have dosome research.
BB: Speaking about your first comic bookconvention and it's your first time in seeing all these people and the effectthat Dan's work has had on them. What are some of your memories of a comic bookfan?
JD: It was most unbelievable for me. I know thathe was a good artist and I know that he was receiving praise but just towitness it was a different story. It was very exciting to see the reaction ofpeople. They wanted to see and meet him.
BB: Did that give him a sense of rejuvenation?Because if you do this long enough and it can seem like you're just doing itbut then all the sudden you get that kind of face to face contact and it can bealmost a regeneration.
JD: Yes that's right. I've decided to go all theconventions this year and will take the grand children along with me because Ihave that need of seeing everyone again and talk about Dan again. I was inOrlando a few weeks ago and it was very comforting to me when the fans came upand talked about Dan because they made me feel good. It was very comfortingbecause they came with nice words. For me it was important and I want to keephis memory alive. I don't want to let go just like that. I want to keep his namealive.
BB: In the last ten years, would he get a lot ofcommission work from fans? I know he would do a lot of sketches at conventions.
JD: Oh yes.
BB: How much time would he spend doing theSimpsons or Bongo Comics and how much time would he spend on doing commissions?
JD: It's hard to say. It's hard to keep track. IfDan could not draw something at the convention because time was running out, orsome other reason, he would do some commission work, yes. The last two years itwas a little bit easier to work on commissions because he was not on Archie'sstaff anymore.
BB: What was that like, not being a staff artistanymore?
JD: Well, he realized that he didn't want to workfor them any longer. They gave him that terrible letter telling him that he wasno longer needed. But it's also the fact that he was beginning to get veryunhappy about what was happening.
BB: And that's do to all the money being madeover the movies and the T.V. Shows without getting any part of it at all eventhough he was still working for the company at the time? When you take on a bigcompany like that in a lawsuit, that's a big decision. Looking back on that,what are you thoughts about that? Was that right to take them on in thatregard? Did you get a lot of support from the industry?
JD: Yes we did, so I thought Dan must be doingthe right thing because I feel whenever you think you're right you have tofight for your rights.
BB: That was something he was passionate about -morally making a statement that companies like that should be sharing in theprofits with the creators? Otherwise who's going to create for the company ifthe creator is not going to see a share?
JD: The fans would give him a lot of supportsaying, "I hope you win your case, it's terrible what they're doing to you."That was very good for Dan because he realized that even if we don't win thecase, because it's still in litigation, we felt that it is good for Dan to knowthat his fans felt that way. They gave him a lot of support.
BB: Was it a crusade for him? Was he able togather strength from it?
JD: Also the fact that quite a few companies cameforward to say to Dan, "we're not going to leave you without work. We're goingto give you some work." He worked for Bongo and Elvira. He did quite a bit ofother things when he stopped work for Archie.
BB: Well that's great to hear because a lot ofartists get left on the scrap heap, as they say, but he obviously was thoughtof so highly and his work was thought of so highly, that other people came andwere willing to pitch in to help. He was able to get other work in that regardbecause if one job goes and sometimes that job can be very difficult one.
JD: Dan just started. He wanted to do a book ofhis own. Finally, he say that, I have to do that and that's when he start tocreate new characters which are now just on paper but never got any further.Christie, our older granddaughter, was writing the stories.
BB: What kind of characters were they?
JD: They were three girls who were living in the lowereast side, Manhattan, and the story was revolving about their lives sharing anapartment and their different view on life and also their way of living. One,that will always staying with me, she loved beautiful clothes, that was alwaysin trouble with her credit cards and the other one was based on something else.It was going to be very exciting.
BB: Was he going to self publish this or wasthere a publisher interested?
JD: Well, yes there was. Actually it wasintroduced at the convention in San Diego. Dan Fogel was the backer for thebook.
BB: How did that come about? You had like alawyer handling this kind of thing for you at that point?
JD: No, because first they had to prepare andwork on the idea. Then when everything would have been together then the lawyerwould come in and probably not do the same thing that already happened withJosie. Make sure things were on paper. To this point, we haven't reallyabandoned the idea. That's all up to Dan Fogel. He wants to do things with whatwe have. He would like to frame the characters in a very good... in a moreexpensive frame so it would be put in...it would not be for the conventionpeople but for the...
BB: Like an art gallery?
JD: The gallery, to be in the gallery.
BB: How far did this get? You spoke of it beingon paper. Were there actual pages drawn for the book?
JD: No, no, just the model sheet.
BB: The character designs?
JD: Yes, the character designs.
BB: Who were these characters based on? Were theybased on real life people that your granddaughter and Dan knew?
JD: No, no that was strictly Dan's idea butChristie fell into the story rather nicely because she's twenty six years oldand they wanted to do something that would have Christie using the languagethat the kids of our time are using - a little more modern.
BB: She was going to be the scripter?
JD: Yes, yes.
BB: So that was his dream to produce a book?
JD: It was wonderful also because Dan Fogel lovedthe way she wrote. That was also a plus because we say now that Dan is doingthe drawing and Christy was doing the story writing it was kind of exciting forus again. It was an exciting time.
BB: Did Dan ever see any of his original artwork?Was he getting his original artwork back from Archie?
JD: At one point, yes, and then at one point itstopped.
BB: And then it stopped? They decided no to giveit back to him?
JD: It was always like begging to get it back.
BB: That's too bad. In the later years of a lotof cartoonists, that can make up for an appreciable amount of income - originalart.
JD: That is one of the reasons why we were ableto go to the conventions because he had some of the work, the originals, thathe could sell.
BB: To try and do a lawsuit, that can take a lotof your financial resources, as anybody who has ever confronted the legalsystem can attest to. How does one maneuver through a lawsuit like that andkeep one's head up? Was it a constant source of frustration for you and Dan tohave to do this, or were able to put it aside and deal with it when it was timeto deal with it, when a decision would come up?
JD: Well, at times we would do that and at othertimes we would also feel that if Archie had wanted to cooperate a little bitbetter, a little bit more, this could have been settled a long time ago becausewe weren't looking for millions. The lawyers' fees are pretty high, so we feltit was a question of stubbornness on their part because they could have settledwith Dan.
BB: It's too bad that it had to happen like that.
JD: Yes, but our lawyer is very optimistic andhe's still doing it for the grandchildren's sake and he doesn't want to abandonthe litigation - he wants to keep fighting.
BB: Does that have an effect on ones health goingthrough a lawsuit like this? Dan had the colon cancer in the mid-nineties andhe survived all that and came through it. If you've conquered cancer you canbasically conquer anything, but does fighting a lawsuit does that take effecton ones heath?
JD: Yes, I would believe that it had an effect.It was beginning to have an effect on his life, yes.
BB: It was funny, when I saw him in November atthe convention, you wouldn't have thought anything of that. I don't know if hewas shy but he was so busy working all the time, drawing the whole convention.It's funny -there's you and Lindy and Dick and Dan and those two guys would bedrawing away. You and Lindy would be the ones meeting all the fans and sellingall your wares there just to give them time to be able to draw. Is that prettymuch what life is like at conventions for you? Let Dan draw and I'll handle thetable?
JD: Yes.
BB: You must have met a lot of interestingpeople?
JD: Well, because I felt that Dan would ratherdraw than talk.
BB: What would you say was the biggest thrill ofDan's career?
JD: The biggest thrill really, it was Josie,because there were so many things that put us together. He created Josie and hehad me in mind. That makes me feel good to think that he got so excited aboutputting this together. Because it was like, well, that's some of his family.
BB: Was Josie your favorite thing that he workedon? Who was your favorite character that Dan ever worked on?
JD: I would say that I always liked the Archiecharacters. I thought they were great. The two gals were Betty and Veronica,they were great but there was still nothing like Josie.
BB: When that movie came out, did that make itbittersweet? What were thoughts when the movie comes out?
JD: We didn't like the movie. We went to see themovie because we wanted to be able to give our opinion to people who ask usabout the movie. It was nothing like the cartoon. When they had the cartoons onTV, that was fun. But, no, the real life movie, I was not impressed at all withthat.
BB: Did Dan have any say in that at all? Was heever asked for his opinions with regards to the movie?
JD: Yes, but he felt that it was almost like theyused every space in the movie for special effects, showing Coca-Cola. It wasalmost like advertising, a commercial. They were not always in their costumes.They were in street clothes also.
BB: Why was Dan so shy? Because on the page, itcomes out that he was this laugh a minute individual, but you would be sosurprised looking at his work that he was so shy.
JD: He was only shy during the early part of hislife. He didn't stay shy. He came out of that. He was very easy-going and alsovery funny. He was able to get along with young and old. He was not shyanymore. I think I changed a little bit of that on him.
BB: Because you were more outgoing than he was atthe time, you brought him out of his shell a little?
JD: Yes.
BB: Did you ever meet Wally Wood? He was the onethat was at Tower. He was the famous artist from the '50s, EC Comics and thenDan did Binky. Do you remember Binky at Tower in the mid-sixties?
JD: No. You see, there was a part of our lives,also, when I went to work. I went to work as a consultant in cosmetics and Iworked for 26 years. So there are a lot of things that I heard about but itdidn't really stay with me.
BB: When did you start doing that?
JD: I went to work when the boys left forcollege.
BB: So, you had a desire to get back to work anddo something once they had gone?
JD: Yes, and also to add to our income.
BB: Do you get a pension from Archie?
JD: No pension from Archie - nothing at all. Igot a pension from my work. I work for Lauren Taylor. I was consultant incosmetics for twenty-six years. I retired from that.
BB: So you actually get a pension for all thestuff you did but for all the stuff he did he doesn't get a pension. How do youlook back on the comic book industry then as one of the wives? Do you look backand say, "thank god Dan loved it so much because they didn't treat him verywell or they don't treat artists very well?" Is that a fair assessment?
JD: At the time, at the beginning when he went towork for the company, I didn't think they treated him that badly. It's justthat at the end of your career when you know that you can't maybe draw foreverthat you would want a company to give you the reward for all the years that yougave them. He gave forty-seven years! They were the best years of his life tothat company.
BB: What was Richard Goldwater like back then.Did you socialize with him at all?
JD: Yes.
BB: What was he like?
JD: He was friendly. We got along with him. Wewere on friendly terms.
BB: Was he a funny guy?
JD: No.
BB: What about Richard Sr. back in the old days?Do you remember Richard Goldwater Sr. at all?
JD: They were funny. The old timers were funny,yes.
BB: So now you're looking forward to going to theconventions?
JD: I am, yes. I have that need.

My interview with Josie DeCarlo P1

I hate waking up to sad news. Saw a mention on Twitter yesterday and Mark Evanier confirmed it - Josie DeCarlo, the basis for her husband Dan's fictional comic-book rock band "Josie & The Pussycats", has gone to be with the Lord

My interaction with Josie was borne out of my desire to include her in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002.

I was interested in lining up a diverse list of spouses, from all eras and walks of life, and wanted to feature Dan and Josie mainly because Dan's work was outside the superhero genre. In fact, you could make the argument that Dan's work had been seen by more people than any artist connected to the book.

Dan, of course, was the star Archie Comics artist for decades until 2000 when he decided he deserved a cut of all the money Archie Comics was making off his work (a live-action movie of Josie & The Pussycats was released in 2001 - some projects deserve to fail miserably) and went to war with the corporation.
After coming up with the concept for my book at the 2001 San Diego Comicon, I was able to close the deal with Josie and Dan at a November 2001 convention in New York City. You may not have guessed it from looking at her skinny frame, but that was one strong woman, filled with French passion and conviction...and a strong determination to support and further her husband's career and legacy.
How strong was she? A month after we all met in NYC, Dan passed away far too early, the added stress of a long, draining legal fight not helping. I still remember mulling over that next call to Josie about her participation in the book. Was I being insensitive even suggesting we continue? But, as I said, this was one strong lady and, when we spoke, she absolutely insisted continuing, again focused on continuing her husband's legacy.
And this strong lady had stories to tell! Not just about Dan, or her and Dan, but about an amazing life lived prior to their meeting that no doubt built that strong foundation that Dan so relied on throughout his life and career. Josie came out to the San Diego Comicon in 2002 and was on my panel for the book (a couple of months before publication) with Ann Eisner, Deni Loubert, and Jackie Estrada and Josie stole the show with her harrowing tales of growing up and her fabulous love story with Dan.

(Here's a pic for the ages: Dan on the left, flanked by Jeff Smith of Bone fame, someone unknown over Josie, then Sergio Aragones and Will Eisner on your far right at the San Diego Comicon 2001. Click to enlarge.)


It's terribly sad to reflect on how many of these I am writing, having posted the Adrienne Colan chapter when she passed away last year. We've also lost Muriel Kubert in 2008, as well as husbands Will Eisner in 2005 and Ric Estrada in 2009. Praise God for those who remain in good health and we wish them long lives.
So let's celebrate Josie DeCarlo's life a little differently. Her story is so impressive, and I have 18000+ words (34 pages of single-space text!) from our conversations together, so I am going to publish the whole interview, versus the chapter in the book. Generally, I've preferred to go with a revised version of the chapter, because I added in a lot of context, but I so love Josie's story that we'll let her tell it, in three parts starting tonight. Lots of talk about Archie, of course, but also around Dan's time working with Stan Lee, and for Martin Goodman's Humorama magazine. Click on the "Read more" to view the entire text.  RIP Josie...
Josie DeCarlo taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for  "IHave To Live With This Guy!"
Blake Bell - I'm speaking to JosieDeCarlo on Sunday March 17th from her home. Josie, I was first interested intalking a little bit about your family background, where you grew up and whatit was like to grow up in Belgium, if that's exactly where you grew up?

BB: Did you dabble in arts at all when you were in high school orbeforehand?
JD: No, I don't remember much. The only things that I remember are verysad. One experience was when my grand father died. He was killed by a train onChristmas Eve and that changed my life in a way. I was so very spoiled by themthat when I went back to Belgium to live with my family, I was not accustomedof having to have discipline and a disciplinarian father.So it wasn't easy for me to make the adjustment.However, my grandmother was still there with us, so she was the strong one whowanted to make sure that she wasn't going to let me go. I managed to, at theend of the school week, still go and spend my weekends with her. So it was avery, very close relationship with my grandparents.
BB: What's it like when you're a teenager and you have to move back inwith your parents? That's a rather unique relationship?
JD: With the War, I feel now that I was cheated out of my teenage years.At sixteen, that's when you think that you are going to have a good time and itwas not like that at all. So when we were invaded, I was like everybody elsewho had that same idea, running, trying to get to the south of France becauseeveryone wanted to evacuate due to the fear of having to live under Germanoccupation.
BB: Do you remember those first moments when all the sudden everything ischanging because you were being invaded? Do you have memories from that?
JD: That I remember very clearly. Those four years of war, I don't thinkI've forgotten one incident because the bombs were dropped in my own town. Theminute they were dropped it was contagious - the people panicked.Those who had a car were fortunate. No, we didn't have acar - we had bicycles. We left our home on bicycles. It was difficult to reachthe point that we wanted to reach because we were constantly mixed with columnof soldiers and there were detours all the time. It took about ten days toarrive at the point where we were bombarded again so badly that we were buriedin a house.The English forces came to dig us out and then, fromthat point on, my father realized that there was no point in going any further.Every time we went a few kilometres, the Germans were doing the same thing. Hesaid we're just going to have to stay here and it was in the north ofFrance. He decided there's nothing we could do anymore. We came to close todeath at that point to go on any further.He realized also that it was almost impossible, so whenthe German came in, my father said, "you have to hide because I'm going to seewhat they do and how they behave and then maybe you'll come out from thehiding." There were all the terrible stories that we had heard in school fromwhen we studied what had happened during the First World War. It was implantedin our minds, all the atrocities of that time. So we just said we'd see whathappens that day.There were the columns of the Elite soldiers. They lookstrong - they look very good. They didn't seem to bother anyone, so my fathersaid, "I think they are anxious to win this war so they not going to bother todo the same things they did during the First World War."Sure enough after all the Elite went by they left behindall the elderly men who just occupied the town. They were nicer. They didn'twant the war anymore than we did.Finally we waited there for about a week until we weretold we could go back home and that's what we did. When we arrived back home,we realized that the few bombs that were dropped in our own town, and weredropped before we left and there was nothing else that had happened from thattime until we came home.From that point on, for the first two years, because ofpropaganda reasons, the Germans seemed to be sort of friendly. Still we werealways on our guard. Then the last two years were horrible. It was a questionof we could not do anything anymore. We were always threatened if we didn'tobey their rules there would be reprisals. They would come to a movie sometimesand if somebody did something to aggravate them they would say, "you, you, youand they would take you away and nobody ever saw those people again." So it wasfrightening.It was also difficult as far as putting food on thetable. You had to try to go to the farms and buy the food on the black market,trying to mix that with the things that we would get with the stamps and justtry to survive.
BB: Did you have any idea what was going with regards to the Holocaust?
JD: Not at all. No. We weren't even aware that there were so many peoplewho were in contact with the BBC and tied to the underground to really fightthe war in a different way. It was a different war, something that nobody wasprepared for. The French had the Imaginary Line and they thought that it wouldnever be crossed, but the Germans went around it!
BB: Do you remember liberation?
JD: That was very exciting.
BB: Tell me the story of that day when it happened.
JD: When the Americans came in, first of all, everyone was so excited.Everyone was on the street, singing and drinking and getting the American agood bottle of wine that maybe had been hidden from before the war. TheAmericans had arrived and from that point on We felt so sure that we were safe.It was not exactly so because there was the Battle of the Bulge. It was inDecember. Everything again, at the time, made us think we're still not as safeas we think.
BB: When the Americans came in that day, did you have any sense that theywere coming?
JD: Yes we did always get some news but we were never sure if the newswas accurate. So we never felt that safe anymore.
BB: Even when the war was over, did you still have that sense ofnot feeling safe, like something could go wrong at anytime? It must have beenlike they talk about September 11th here. There was that age of innocencebefore hand and now everyone's kind of looking over their shoulder. Was thatthe sense that was going on at that time?
JD: No, not really. When the Battle of the Bulge ended, they surrendered.So we knew at that time, they were finished. We felt safe. Then the good timescame in. We rejoiced in that we finally felt free. We were able to go out andthat's when I met Dan.He arrived in Belgium at the end of January and he waswith the Air Force and he was stationed in London all those previous years, forthree years actually. When they arrived, everyone was trying their best tocommunicate with them.They were at the street corner and my cousin, Georgette,passed by and they were trying with a French dictionary to find a place thatthey wanted to see and they called her. They say, "Mademoiselle, come here."She helped them in finding the place they wanted to go.She, just like many other people, invited them to comefor coffee. She said, "I have a cousin, I will ask her to come and my motherand I would like to have you visit." People did that. They invited the Americansoldiers for a home cooked meal or just to show our appreciation. To show ourexcitement we would always do something for them to make them feel that weappreciated all they had done. So they did.My cousin came to ask my father if I can go there and hesaid, "Well, my daughter didn't go out with Germans, she will not go out withAmericans. They have men passing by and I don't believe that she should begoing." But she insisted, "it's for my mother's sake. It's only for a nicechat" So he let me go.Dan and Eddie, his friend, for dinner invited us. Myfather sort of calmed down a little bit and let us go. This was also the timethat Dan and I began to know that we were meant for each other.
BB: I was reading an interview that Dan did for The Comics Journal and hedescribes it as a blind date. The two of you, you and Georgette, walked up toEddie and Dan and you said, "I'm going with the small one."
JD: Yes, "I wanted the little one."
BB: Is that a true story?
JD: Yes that's a true story.
BB: You liked him right off the bat?
JD: He said, "she's mine. The little one is mine." And I was his for 56years.
BB: What were your first impressions of him?
JD: Well, he was already funny although we could not communicate verymuch. He was already managing to make me laugh at certain things that I thoughtwere what he said. He learned French very quickly. From the beginning, he wasdrawing cartoons to make me understand what he was trying to say to me, whichwas fun.
BB: How much English did you speak at that time?
JD: Oh, very little.
BB: So he would draw cartoons to bridge that language barrier.
JD: To communicate, yes, with the dictionary and the cartoons.
BB: So you guys met and you hit it off instantly? You knew you liked eachother right away?
JD: Yes and also it was wonderful because everyone in the family felt thesame way. They loved Dan. He was at our home all the time. My father hadaccepted him, so there was no problem anymore. We knew that we could date, wecould have fun. It was just great, after going through what we had gone throughfor four years.
BB: Was he a shy guy?
JD: He was. He was. Yes.
BB: Were you more out going than he was?
JD: I think I was, yes.
BB: So he stayed there, didn't he, an extra six months in Belgium, justto marry you?
JD: Because he asked me if I would come to the United States because hehad enough points to be discharged but I didn't like that. I just didn't feelcomfortable coming to a family I didn't know and leaving my family. It was abig thing, being far away. So I told him it would be a better then if he cameback and thought about it, and I would do the same. But he decided to re-enlistand to give us time to marry in Belgium.
BB: What was the name of the time you were living in?
JD: Charleroi.
BB: What would you guys do on a date? What would you guys do in thattown? What was available to you?
JD: We would go to the movie; we went to the opera; we went to the pubsand had some drinks; we went to dinner sometimes and also from time to time wewould go to the Officers' Club for learning the Jitterbug.
BB: What kind of movies were you guys seeing? Were the American movies orwere the French movies?
JD: They were French movies, yes.
BB: So he would have to go there and, they wouldn't have been subtitled?
JD: No, I think the best way to learn is through the movies. I felt thesame way when I came to this country. When I start to learn English from goingto the movies.
BB: Do you remember any specific movies, from when you first got there,American movies, that were you favorites, or any movies stars that stood out?
JD: I only remember the opera. We went to see Carmen. I knew that at theend of the opera, when everybody was clapping, Dan and Eddie were clapping, itwas "Carmen est mort!" I knew they meant Carmen died! But the movies, I don'trecall.
BB: How long from when you first met him before he asked you to marryhim? How long was the courtship?
JD: We met in January 1945 and we were married in February of 1946.
BB: So you're over here and he stayed specifically behind to marry you?How difficult then was it for him to then leave and go home?
JD: Well, he knew that I was going to follow. He came home actually,three or four months before me. It was fun because at least he was in New York,waiting for me at the port.
BB: Did you guys write letters back and forth?
JD: Oh, yes.
BB: And you were you able to communicate better then by the time you gotmarried?
JD: A little more but not perfectly. I still don't think that I speakEnglish perfectly.
BB: That must have been scary to think, once he had gone, that in threeor four months you're going to be moving to an entirely different country, anew society, a new continent, a new way of life, and a new language. Do youremember feelings of apprehension or were you just, "I want to get back to Danbecause I love him so much?"
JD: That was my first interest was to come back to Dan because we were soanxious to be together. That also was there, that it was frightening a littlebit. At the time when I left my family there was no airplane yet, so theythought, "my god, there she is leaving. When are we going to see each otheragain?"It was a mixture of excitement and happiness. I'dmarried the man of my dream and also coming to a family that I had a feelingwould accept me and were happy about Dan bringing back home a war bride.However, it was a little frightening at the beginning. It took me three yearsto feel comfortable. In three years time, I began to meet all Dan's friends, thepeople that he grew up with. When I made friends, life began to change for me.
BB: You came over by boat obviously. You came into Manhattan, is thatcorrect?
JD: Yes. It was a shock because every time we showed the Americanssomething that was quite beautiful, in architecture or something, they wouldsay, "but we have that much bigger in the United States."     We would say, "my goodness.Everything they have is much bigger than what we have." We sometime thoughtthey were exaggerating. Then when we came here, we said, "oh my god, it'strue."
BB: It was just you on the boat, coming over by yourself?
JD: No. We were on a boat with five hundred war brides.
BB: Wow, 500? That's interesting.
JD: Fortunately, I had a friend from home - a very close friend - we metat the train station without knowing we would be going to the same town. Wewould be living in the same town. So that was also very nice.
BB: What were your first impressions of seeing New York City from theedge of the boat, or your first day in New York City? What were yourimpressions?
JD: We didn't really stay in the city. He just came to pick me up. All Icould see was all those big buildings. Everything was just so big. I wasn't inNew York very long, but the minute I knew enough about New York, I was very,very drawn by going to this big city and seeing New York. I was fascinated withNew York. And I still am.
BB: What was one thing that fascinated you? Do you remember one place youliked to go to in Manhattan over all the others? Was it the Statue of Liberty?Was it Battery Park?
JD: The Statue of Liberty was the most, since it was a gift from France.We saw her coming in, from a distance. The first of five years of our marriagewas sort of difficult because I gave birth to twin boys. Dan, at that time, wastrying to make a brake in the art field, so it was rough. The five first yearswere very rough.I decided that the best thing for us would be for me toget back home with my two children, my two babies, and let him work on hisportfolio and to this day I feel that it was the best thing. It seems cruel atthe time that I was leaving him so soon, but I think it was the best thing Iever did for Dan. It was giving him a chance to work and concentrate on hiswork because he had a dream.He wanted to be an illustrator first. That's what hethought. Then he went into the comics. And I could tell that there would be noway he could try to be concerned about his family and also work every night,all night to build up a portfolio. That was exactly what I thought at the timeand I still feel today that it was the best thing I did.I stayed with my family for something about six monthsand then one day I received a letter saying, "please come back! I got a job!"
BB: How long after you had the children did you go back to your family?
JD: They were a year old. Actually, they were not quite a year old.That's why Dan decided maybe my idea was good to go because I would not have topay for the babies to travel because they were not yet a year old yet. I wouldonly have to pay a half fare each when I came back because we had no money. Wehad no money. He gave me the little bit of money he had. He gave it to me to goon the trip.I was so thrilled and so thankful that he understood theneed that I had to go back home and tell all this to my family. I wouldcorrespond with them but I just wanted them to see my babies.
BB: What were your impressions of comic books before you met Dan? Did yougrow up with comic books?
JD: Oh yes. We have wonderful artists in Europe, or so they arecartoonists. Tintin - the French Comics.
BB: Herge?
JD: Oh yes, we grew up with comics also.
BB: So the notion that he got into comics was not even an issue then?
JD: No. The only thing, I think that in Europe, they gave more respect tomore the comics. Here, the books are in soft cover. In Europe, they are in hardcover. So the children take care of them. They keep them. They hold onto them.
BB: It's not considered disposable as much as it is here. Now, when youcame over for the first time was he already working for Timely Comics?
JD: No, he was actually for Humourama at the time. He was spending mostof the day, one page...
BB: Gag strips?
JD: Yes. At the time it was drawing very sexy woman. And then afterHumourama, he went to Timely Comics.
BB: How does he go to work for Timely Comics?
JD: Well, his sister saw an ad in the paper, told him about it. He wentand they hired him immediately. They loved his work. He worked for Timely forquite awhile - Millie the Model, My Friend Irma -
BB: He was hired as a staff artist, wasn't he? He was on the payroll, asopposed to freelance.
JD: Yes.
BB: Did you ever go up into the Timely bullpen up in the Empire StateBuilding?
JD: Oh, yes.
BB: What do you remember about that and those offices? It would have beena big room with a lot of people working in those offices up there and I guessStan Lee would have a...
JD: Everyone was friendly. I always find very easy to adjust to live inAmerica because there is not as much protocol as there is in France, in Europein general. The Americans feel at ease, no matter where they are and I feltthat so it was very easy for me at the time. Even though I didn't completelycommunicate well yet, I know that they understood.
BB: Do you remember Stan Lee? Did you meet him right off the bat?
JD: Oh, yes and we became very, very close friends with Joan, his wife,and Stan Lee.
BB: What do you remember about the two? Do you have any funny storiesabout Stan and Dan and Joan?
JD: They made a good pair, Stan Lee and Dan. Stan had a great sense ofhumor and Dan also but one was funnier then the other one would put it down onpaper. In other words, I would say, Dan understood Stan Lee's humour.
BB: What about Joan? Tell me about Joan and what she's like.
JD: Joan made her guests very comfortable. She was very vivacious womanand she had loads of pets. Every time we were invited to there home for dinner,she would always say to me, "you are going to take one of my poodles home." Iwould say, "Oh I would love to," because the poodle took a liking to me. Theminute I arrived she was on my lap until I left.Every time we would leave she would say, "well next timeyou have to take one home one with you." Then finally one day she came with thevelvet coat, the rhinestone collar and she gave me Josie. She had two - she hadJosephine and Napoleon, one white one and one black one. She gave me Josie. Andisn't that a coincidence? The dog was called Josie and I am Josie.
BB: That's hilarious. That's funny because I interviewed her for thebook, as well.
JD: She was a marvelous hostess.
BB: She's can tell stories. You can see the actress in her. Now, do youremember anybody else from that Timely Bullpen that you would have socializedwith?
JD: There was Mel Lazarus. He was always a sometime part of the group.
BB: What was he like? We always try to get an idea of what these peopleare like because some of them are not with us obviously.
JD: Mel always had a great sense of humor. They all get along very well.They all had fun together.
BB: Do you remember meeting Al Jaffe?
JD: All Jaffe I remember, yes.
BB: Other than Joan and Stan, would you socialize with the othercartoonists in those days?
JD: Yes. We stayed pretty much with the group.
BB: So who else would have been somebody you would have socialized within that group?
JD: Then at one point, it was at the time that Stan and Dan had the WillyLumpkin strip, we joined the NCS. Then that opened the door, again, for me alittle wider because it was now a different feeling. Dan was already making aname for himself. It was fun to be amongst so many other cartoonists, all thosebig name cartoonists.
BB: So who do you remember from that group?
JD: I remember one of the ladies that I adore was March Divine. She wasthe secretary up there and at the time... oh gosh. It's hard to go back so farback.
BB: That's why I say, in the future, if you remember anything you canfeel free to write it down.
JD: Yes, I could also look in my book to see what the time was. I knowthere were so many big names that I was having fun going around with my book,asking for their autographs.
BB: So when you first moved over you were living in Dan's mother's house?
JD: Yes.
BB: There were like ten people in six rooms. What's it like to be someonewho can't necessarily communicate as well and to be living with so many peoplein such a tight space?
JD: It was crowded. We were crowded. Fortunately, because they wereItalian, I was able to communicate a little bit with my mother in law. Theywere so many words similar.It wasn't easy, because all the soldiers coming backfrom the war were all looking for an apartment. We couldn't find an apartment.After I came back from my trip to Europe with the babies, Dan had the job, thenwe were lucky and we found an apartment and we moved out. We then began to havea normal life.
BB: Just so I can get this clear, when you came over he wasn't workingfor Timely and then when you went back to stay with your family and the twinsare almost a year old, that's when he started working for Timely?
JD: No that was prior. I went back with the children prior to...
BB: Prior to working for Timely?
JD: Oh yes. That's when he wrote the letter to me and said, "come back;I've got a job."
BB: I read The Comics Journal interview that almost makes it sound likehe had found the job at Timely, then you came over for the first time. So, I'mglad that's cleared up.He had four sisters. Did that have an influence on thedirection of his artwork, in terms of the humorous aspect? Where did he developthat knack for humor?
JD: He does have that knack, yes. They had jobs so...
BB: Did he pick it up from his mother, father, what are the origins of -
JD: His wit?
BB: Yeah, his wit - his sense of humor.
JD: Well, his father was artistic. His father made many statues becausehe was landscaping. He was very good. I think I would say his father.
BB: His father was a funnyman?
JD: Yes he was.
BB: So that's where he picked it up - his ability to communicate humorinto visuals?
JD: It was very hard for me to understand a sense of humor. It's lookingback and trying to remember what made everybody laugh. At the time I didn'talways understood.
BB: When you do come back with the twins and he has the job working atTimely drawing all those strips we talked about like Millie the Model and my FriendIrma, what is a typical work day like in the household? Is he an early riser?
JD: Yes, he was always an early riser. But never left the studio until hethought that everything he had to do for the day was finished and also that hewas pleased with it, satisfied with what he'd drawn. He would get up sometimesin the middle of the night just to take a look again on what he draw to see ifit was exactly what it had to be.
BB: Would he work from nine to five and still work in the evenings?
JD: He was a workaholic. But when Dan put the pencil down, he was allours. And he was able to entertain all the time, play with the children. Inever had problems putting my children to bed because they would run to bedbecause dad was going to come and tell them a story.
BB: Did he live with these characters that he would draw? Could hemaintain some separation from his work? When you guys would go on vacationwould he bring his work?
JD: No. No, he didn't take his work on vacation, no. He would leave it athome. Also, he loved to play golf and that was his relaxation. He wouldsometimes work all night because he had played a game of golf.
BB: Was he a workaholic because he had to draw so much to take care ofthe family or did he just love the work itself?
JD: Maybe a mixture but mostly because he was a workaholic because heloved his work. His work was his passion. I think it's the same with all theartists. They must work to earn a living but the main thing is their passion.
BB: I think the best ones have that passion. I think a lot of peopleespecially back then, considered it a job. They didn't really consider it anart form. But someone like Dan who had a natural talent, he was able to developthat passion. I think you can see that in the work. Now, do you have funnystories back then about your communication problems? You told me one about thepostman and about the drawings to communicate and help you along those lines?
JD: When we were together here, there was not anymore problemscommunicating except sometimes I would need his help to still explain things tome.
BB: But you picked up English pretty quickly once you'd hit the States?
JD: I did.
BB: Do you remember the whole Comics Code Authority and Frederic Wertham?Dan's not doing superhero work but did that still impose on your life?
JD: Oh, yes.
BB: What do you remember about that time?
JD: I always thought that it was wonderful that there were so manydifferent types of art. There was a different type of art and I was notaccustomed to seeing that. So I was very impressed with all this diverse workfrom other artists.
BB: Did you ever worry about comics because the industry came under quitethe attack?
JD: Yes and at the time it was scary.
BB: Because that threatens your very lively hood so you remember thatpretty well. Some people don't. Some of the wives said it never really affectedthem. But others would remember the children going to school and not wanting toadmit their dads drew superhero or horror comics because comics were lookedupon in a bad light in the early fifties.
JD: I think, that's when Dan began to change his style a little bit also.He didn't draw...I guess he could not anyway with the Code. He begins to draw,when he made the move to Archie, just before that. And they were not quite assmall voluptuous, but still sexy.
BB: So what are some of your favorite strips from the fifties when he wasworking at Timely? Like Millie the Model or My Friend Erma, the Genie strips?Did you look at a lot of his work in those days?
JD: Always. Dan had a flare for fashion and he liked my opinion.
BB: So you would help him in terms of giving him input into his work?
JD: Yes. Not as far as the drawing but as far as the fashion, yes.
BB: Obviously Dan being a man, you might be a little more hip to thefashions and the trends of the day. So were you a big help to him in keeping upto date?
JD: I think I was, yes. I would do research for him sometimes.
BB: What kind of research - in terms of the clothing styles?
JD: Yes, in terms of the clothing styles and sometimes he would take asketchbook and would go to the high school and wait for the kids to come out tosee what they were wearing. He was always really up to date with the fashion.
BB: So during that time in the fifties, he worked from home all the time?
JD: No, he had a studio at one time.
BB: How long did he have the studio for?
JD: He had a studio because he had someone who inked. He was doing thepenciling but he wanted the man who was actually inking for him right there. Hedidn't want any change in his line. I'm so happy about that because so manypeople have said to me about Dan, about the clean line. I'm so happy that hemade sure that it was kept that way.
BB: So what of those strips do you remember of the Millie the Model? Doyou remember having favorite ones back then that he would do?
JD: Millie was good. My Friend Erma was very good too.
BB: What one was your favorite?
JD: I never really have any favorites. I liked them all.
BB: My Friend Erma was based on a radio show. Do you remember meeting anyof the cast members or having any oversights from the company?
JD: No.
BB: Dan was allowed free hand to-?
JD: At that point raising two kids, the twins, was enough for me. Ididn't always meet all these people.
BB: Do you remember the first time he came home with artwork and it wasArchie related?
JD: I thought that was good for Dan because, again, it was a change inwhat he had done up to that point. It was involving teenagers which was, at thetime, very important because everyone was beginning to understand that thetimes was changing. They were beginning to be concerned about the environmentand all.
BB: But the rates at Archie were pretty low, the page rates?
JD: Yes.
BB: Did Dan have to work that much harder?
JD: Yes. He had to do more pages. Dan is probably one of the men who drawthe most pages. After we'd moved into an apartment and he had an intention tobuy a house so he drew, drew, and drew.
BB: How much stress does that put on a marriage? It's not like a nine tofive person who leaves and comes home. Did you feel left out in some respectsbecause he's got to spend so much time drawing to keep up?
JD: Well, not really because when he put the pencil down he was entirelyto us and then his time was with us. He never changed that. He kept doing thatall his life. "Don't bother me when the studio door was closed." I couldunderstand that. If the pencil sharpener was going a lot, non-stop, then he wasreally busy. But at night time, at dinner time particularly, when we were alltogether at the table there was always so many laughs and he always made up fornot putting his complete day into his work.
BB: He did a lot of album covers as well for the Archies. Did those pay alot better? Do you remember?
JD: They paid better but still not enough.
...to be continued

Ditko Archives v2 out in Spanish today!

God's blessings just keep raining down on my life in 2012. Just found out today that my Unexplored Worlds: The Steve Ditko Archives v2 book has not only been translated into Spanish, but is out in stores today (under the title Mundos Inexplorados: Los Archivos Steve Ditko v2).

Diábolo Ediciones is the Spanish publisher and if they sound familiar it is because they also translated and published Strange Suspense: The Steve Ditko Archives v1 in December of 2010. Click here to view the publisher's listing for volume one that has 3 pages of pre-code Ditko in Spanish!

Perfect timing is this as we ramp up for the English publication of Mysterious Traveler: The Steve Ditko Archives v3 in May! Click here to pre-order it from Amazon.com at 38% off the cover price. Click on the image below for a larger version of the front, spine and back Spanish cover to v2, which you can purchase at Spain's Amazon site.

Bill Everett Archives v1 in comic stores this week

Amazing Mysteries: The Bill Everett Archives v1 hits comic-book stores this week (although, in true comic-book fashion, some slipped out to the East Coast last Wednesday, and it doesn't hit bookstores and Amazon.com until next Monday).

It's 240 pages of all Everett Golden Age goodness featuring rare and never-before-reprinted work from titles such as Amazing Mystery Funnies (1938), Amazing-Man Comics (1939), Target Comics (1940), Heroic Comics (1940), and Blue Bolt Comics (1940). Join us in Toronto on Wednesday, February 29 at 7pm for the Book Launch Event hosted by The Beguiling.

The reviews are coming in and are superlative regarding the production of the book, and reveal the fascination of watching Everett's style evolve. Oddly enough, some of the reviews use language that contradicts the expressed purpose of how I organized the book - by "action hero" versus strict chronology. In other words, I included works of Everett from 1940-1942 to highlight the change in Everett's style in 1940 to that well-known slick, polished style, so that readers who buy this, or the subsequent, volume would have a sampling of his work from 1938-1942 to compare.

If I had gone strictly by chronology, you would have only seen the more raw material from 1938-39, plus you wouldn't have a sampling of virtually all of Everett's creations in each volume. Alas, I don't envy a reviewer's workload when it comes to absorb 240 pages of this volume plus every other product that came out in the given week. Rest assured, though, that while the first half of volume one is Bill's comparatively raw style, you do get a huge sampling in the book's second half of his more polished work. Volume two will also take this to the next level, as it will include his super-rare 1950s romance and adventure work for Eastern, plus some unexpected Everett goodness! Here are snippets of the reviews to date:

Comic Book Resources - "What's exciting for me about this book is watching Everett develop as an artist and storyteller and figure out the medium in relatively rapid fashion. His lettering, clunky and stylized in his initial Skyrocket Steele story, quickly more straightforward and easier to read. His composition becomes more assured and dramatic. He clearly starts thinking of the page as a unit and not a bunch of unrelated panels as they stories start to seem less cluttered and more refined.

Publisher's Weekly - "This volume provides an illuminating look at the artist's numerous attempts at catching Sub-Marineresque lightning in a bottle for a second time."

Comics Bulletin - "For fans of comics from the dawn of the comic book era, this book is an indispensable gift from Blake Bell and Fantagraphics."

Booksteve's Library - "Presented chronologically, one can witness Bill's design skills develop by leaps and bounds even as his storytelling skills just seem to have come naturally to him. Compiled by Blake Bell, author of the still recent Bill Everett biography, who provides some insightful text and art samples throughout, fans of Golden Age comic books in general and key artists in particular have a treasure trove here similar to Vanguard's recent Wally Wood volume. Lots of fun, colorful stories with some of the best artwork of the late 1930's and early 1940's."

Michael T. Gilbert - "The reproduction is absolutely superb, shot from the original comics but really cleaned up nicely. It's truly a pleasure to look at, and Blake's insightful commentary on Everett's life and career is fascinating. Early efforts like Amazing-Man and Skyrocket Steel, reprinted here, display Bill's early efforts when he was still learning the ropes. But even then Everett had an uncanny knack for telling an exciting story with unexpected twists and fascinating characterization. For my money, Bill was as great a writer as he was an artist (and more's the pity he wasn't encouraged to write more of his own material in the 60s!). This is the collection hardcore Everett fans have always wanted to see, but never dreamed they would. The incredibly rare stories in this book aren't as slick as say, Lou Fine or Will Eisner, but the stories themselves are really terrific and very readable."

Scans of Bill Everett Sub-Mariner B&W origin story

We hope you'll join us for the Bill Everett Book Launch on Wednesday February 29 inToronto for Amazing Mysteries: The Bill Everett Archives v1. We'll be featuringsome dazzling early work by Everett in my brand new slideshow on theSub-Mariner creator, as well as on Steve Ditko. (Mysterious Traveler: The Steve Ditko Archives v3 went to theprinters last week! Out in Q2!)

Perhaps the most dazzling piece of Everett artwork fromthe early Golden Age of Comics (Everett produced work during this period from1938-1942 before going to war; he started up again in 1946) is the originalorigin story for the Sub-Mariner. Most people remember the 12-page story incolor from Marvel Comics #1 in 1939but, prior to owner Martin Goodman commissioning that first book, Everett hadalready worked up the original 8-page version for a movie theatre promotional giveawaycalled Motion Picture Funnies Weekly.It was produced by the Funnies Inc. shop (i.e., a studio of comic-book creatorsthat packaged comics for publishers unwilling in these early days to have theirown stable of paid employees) that Everett had formed with his editor at Centaur Publications, Lloyd Jacquet (where Everett started in 1938 doing comicsthat we feature in the Everett Archives). Copies of MPFW only surfaced in the 1970swhen Jacquet passed away.
Motion PictureFunnies Weekly #1 had a color cover, but the interior was B&W, and ledoff with Everett's Sub-Mariner origin story. Click HEREto view scans of the entire issue (thanks to author Sean Howe for the link), including the back cover drawn by Everett promoting Funnies Inc.'s desire to encourage similar business for the shop.Read through the message board thread and you'll learn a lot about the historyof this key comic book (which we discuss in great length in my Fire & WaterBill Everett biography). When the story was "reprinted" in Marvel Comics #1, Everett expanded it by four pages (the originalart to page 12 is featured in the Everett Archives v1) and attempted a coloringprocess that, in print, didn't yield the desired results. Seeing the story inB&W only highlights Everett's place in the absolute top tier of creators duringthe Golden Age of Comics. (Creators, notjust pencilers, since Everett was a five-tool player, to use a baseball analogy).
My favorite panels from the story include that stunningbottom panel on pg 2 (the first shot of the diver underwater) and I've alwaysbeen in love with the "grace" of the final 4 panels of the followingpage. Page four features the Sub-Mariner crushing the head of the diver -hardly the plain jane origins of a garden variety superhero! On page 6, I lovethe way he portrays the Sub-Mariner, his mother and the Emperor; such fluidityin that line work. Once Everett gets down to the business of pumping out the strip, andhis other work for Funnies Inc., on a monthly basis, we don't see theSub-Mariner portrayed in this fashion again. And, of course, we get to seehistory clarified in that last panel on pg. 8 - April 1939 and "continuednext week", removed for the expanded version (12 pgs) in Marvel Comics #1. The historical importance of MPFW can never be underestimated, in terms of writing the history of Marvel Comics, the company.
As we point out in the Everett Archives v1, Bill's stylein 1938-39 is very raw and dynamic, compared to this first Sub-Mariner story,until 1940 when that "polish" for which he became famous kicks into high gear onstrips like Hydroman. But you can clearly see from these scans why Everett wasconsidered a prodigy. He had artistic talent in spades before he entered comicbooks and it shines through in the original origin story of the Sub-Mariner in B&W.

My Ditko article in San Diego Comic-Con 2012 Annual

I hate "sitting" on cool stuff. It worked for me when the editor of the Marvel Masterworks series couldn't get my Dr. Strange introduction approved in time for inclusion but, this time, I was on needles and pins for months waiting to spill the beans on the Ditko excitement found in this year's San Diego Comic-Con 2012 Annual. I was hired last November to write a 2000-word piece on Steve Ditko's contributions to the Spider-Man book and character for the Con's show piece publication. It's the 50th anniversary of Steve Ditko and Stan Lee's creation that first saw print in Amazing Fantasy #15, and the Con is all over it in their 80-page annual. (Perhaps prompted somewhat by the new movie starring the guy from Never Let Me Go, Andrew Garfield.)

The Annual has a print run of 135,000 copies (probably making it the most widespread publication I've been included within). The book is squarebound, on lovely matte-finish paper and shipped in a polybag. The Con introduced the publication last year and it was a great success. You can also read and download it online at the Con's website. The Annual also features a piece on the John Romita era by Tom Spurgeon, he of the super-blog Comics Reporter. If you see me at this year's Con, stop me and say hello.
(Thanks to Ben Towle - cartoonist supreme at www.benzilla.com - for the above scans.)

Bill Everett Archives v1 Toronto Book Launch Event

On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 7pm, The Beguiling (Toronto's finest book store) is hosting a book launch for the release of my latest book, Amazing Mysteries: The Bill Everett Archives v1. It looks like the book will make its way into stores on the Wednesday prior, so there will be plenty of copies available for purchase!

The event features a book signing and exclusive slide show entitled "Bill Everett and Steve Ditko: Before the Sub-Mariner and Spider-Man" (as we also preview the third volume of my Steve Ditko Archives series, out in April). Join our Facebook Page for the Event.

The event is being held right next to The Beguiling at The Central (restaurant and bar), 603 Markham St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada. All those who attend will receive a signed Everett Archives v1 tipped-in bookplate by me!

Bill Everett created the Sub-Mariner (the first anti-hero and mutant of the Marvel Universe), and co-created Daredevil. "The Bill Everett Archives v1" reprints for the first time Everett's earliest work in comics from 1938-42 featuring his creations Amazing Man, Hydroman, Skyrocket Steele and many more!

Steve Ditko is the co-creator and original artist of the Amazing Spider-Man, but produced an entire library worth of work in the decade prior. "Mysterious Traveler: The Steve Ditko Archives v3" debuts in April and focuses on Ditko's stellar work from 1957 for Charlton Comics.
 
More information on Amazing Mysteries: The Bill Everett Archives v1
View the Bill Everett Archives v1 promo press sheet for more information on the book, published by Fantagraphics Books, Inc.

Pre-order from Amazon.com or directly from the publisher, Fantagraphics Books Inc.
 
Listen to me talk about the Bill Everett and Steve Ditko Archives series on Inkstuds.com and Collected Comics Library.

Watch a video preview below and read a 23-page excerpt featuring three Hydroman stories!

Satanic Torture in the Secret History of Marvel Comics

Last week, we announced that my upcoming collaboration with Dr. Michael Vassallo, The Secret History of Marvel Comics: Jack Kirby and the Moonlighting Artists at Martin Goodman's Empire, has expanded from 168 to 300 pages. This is to accommodate the tons of imagery by the top artists at Marvel of the 1940s and 1950s that we continue to uncover since we announced the book last November (still on track to debut in July at the San Diego Comicon).

What is even more intriguing, however, is the content of some of that imagery. Remember those quaint comic-book covers from the 1940s that featured light "bondage" with women tied up by a villain as the hero rushed in to save her? Well, apparently, as an artist finished the latest issue of, say, Captain America, they then took their pens to something a wee bit more extreme.

Below is a handful of illustrations from just one issue of a Martin Goodman pulp, Mystery Tales, from 1940. (Another connection to the Marvel Comics of the 1950s – Mystery Tales was a comic book that had a 1956 issue featured on the TV show, Lost; an issue that featured Steve Ditko's second story for Marvel.)

These make even those 1960s Eric Stanton/Steve Ditko bondage (and temperate sexual sadomasochism) collaborations look like children's books. The material below is not representative of all the imagery in our book, by any means, but it is a sub-genre that can't be ignored because it's not just limited to one issue or one famous Marvel artist.

Remember Stanley Kubrick's last film, 1999's Eyes Wide Shut , and that scene with Tom Cruise entering the mansion where all that open sexual intercourse is being played out amongst the upper crust of Manhattan? Below, that "Yield, Lovely Maidens, to the Blood-Master" double-splash page makes Kubrick look like Garry Marshall! Scantily clad women forced to jump off a raised, fiery platform, destined to be impaled by large spikes laid out in front of tables of laughing rich guys? "Get behind me, Satan!" indeed.

We posted these images (click to enlarge) because, as happened sometimes in those days, they are unsigned and Michael Vassallo, our art expert, is leaning towards Jack Binder. Binder was the creator of the original Daredevil character (the non-Marvel version), and older brother of comic-book writer, Otto Binder. Please use the Comments section below to weigh in with your opinions.

There are other images in the book not featured here by famous Marvel artists that display women being whipped, scars visible all over their bodies, an inch away from death by demons and zombie-like figures in human form; the extremes between the innocence of the Golden Age of Comics and this wing of Martin Goodman's empire makes you understand why we called this book, The Secret History of Marvel Comics...