Mark Leslie Lefebvre's Blog, page 29

Episode 165 – Rude Awakenings from Sleeping Rough

In this special shorter episode of the podcast, Mark talks about a book that he has published via his Stark Publishing imprint written by a friend who found himself homeless in London, England.

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Mark shares the origin of the book and why he is publishing it, as well as some of the mechanics and logistics surrounding the distribution of the eBook and print editions.

He also reads an excerpt from the chapter “Down and Out in London.”

Rude Awakenings from Sleeping Rough

Peter C. Mitchell

Hardcover ISBN: 9781989351413
Print ISBN: 9781989351376
eBook ISBN: 9781989351383

Links of Interest:

Rude Awakenings from Sleeping Rough (Universal Book Link)Rude Awakenings (Hardcover – via Author, Author)Rude Awakenings (Paperback – via Author, Author)A Different Drummer Bookstore (Burlington, Ontario)Patreon for Stark Reflections

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 164 – Reflections on The Creative Penn Podcast Episode 517

This is a special “Reflections on Other Podcasts” style episode.

Mark reflects on Episode 517 of The Creative Penn Podcast, where Joanna Penn interviews Holly Worton.

The description from that episode, which is highly recommended that you listen to is this:

How can you prevent self-doubt and fear from blocking your creative expression? What if you’ve built an audience for your books, but then you want to change direction? Joanna Penn discusses these issues and more with Holly Worton in Episode 517 (November 23, 2020) of The Creative Penn Podcast.

Holly Worton is the author of 17 nonfiction and self-help books about business mindset and personal growth, as well as on walking and the wisdom of trees and nature. She’s also the host of the Into the Woods podcast.

Prior to the episode’s main content, Mark shares comments from previous episodes, a word from this episode’s sponsor . . .

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You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

Mark also shares a personal update, which includes:

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Progression on NaNoWriMoThe launch of the OBSESSIONS anthologyPublishing another book (unexpectedly) – Nocturnal Screams Vols 1 to 8The forthcoming release of RUDE AWAKENINGS FROM SLEEPING ROUGH by Peter C. Mitchell



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Links of Interest:

Episode 517 of The Creative Penn Podcast: Business Mindset and Pivoting Your Author Career with Holly WortonThe Creative PennHolly WortonMark’s NaNoWriMo ProfileEpisode 163 – Getting a Creative Edge with Mickey MikkelsonEpisode 32 – Hybrid Author Publishing with C. C. HumphreysKobo Writing Life NaNoWriMo Promo (use coupon code NANO2020)Obsessions: An Anthology of Original FictionRude Awakenings from Sleeping RoughMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 163 – Getting A Creative Edge with Mickey Mikkelson

In this episode Mark interviews Mickey Mikellson of Creative Edge Publicity – a boutique publicity firm specializing in arranging events such as book signings, library or school presentations, online and print media opportunities, and many other events related to the arts in general. Mickey and his firm are advocates for both the traditional and independent artist.

Prior to the interview, Mark shares some recent comments from listeners, a personal update, and a word from this episode’s sponsor.

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You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

In their conversation, Mark and Mickey talk about:

The last time Mark interviewed Mickey, for the Kobo Writing Life podcast in Calgary at When Words CollideWhat Creative Edge Publicity does and how they work with authors in terms of setting up interviews, chats, appearances, articles, etc, since 2016How it had been Robert J. Sawyer, Mickey’s first traditionally published author, who introduced Mark to MickeyHow Creative Edge Publicity went full-time in September 2020 and doubled their client base in less than a monthHow Mickey got into the businessThe typical services and connections that Creative Edge offers to their clientsThe reality of not being able to guarantee sales, but working on long term building-blocks of opportunitiesSome of the differences now that this business is operating full timeThe rewarding experience of getting to work with highly intelligent and creative individuals on a daily basisThe difference between a publisher’s in-house publicist and an independent publicistMickey’s preference towards creating and continuing to build a relationship with an author who is a client, versus short-term, one-off projectsThe ability to continue to publicize back-list titles versus the three month window of publicity that comes with traditional publishingThe first conversation with potential clients in terms of determining the fit, which is typically one hourHow Mickey signs authors not based on the content of their books, but more on their personality and how they might fit well within the larger team of clientsThe perspective of the entire client basis of Creative Edge being a team or extended familyThe typical budget range an author working with Creative Edge would be looking atThe results-based charges currently used for billing clientsThe value of attracting a reader-based audience versus a mass media based audienceSome of the misconceptions authors have about publicists

Links of Interest:

Creative Edge PublicityFacebookTwitterMark’s NaNoWriMo ProfileEpisode 162 – Happy Accidents with Joshua PantallerescoEpisode 161 – NaNo No-No’sEpisode 133 – Anatomy of a Rebel with Sacha BlackEpisode 155 – Rebel Reflections with Guest Host Sacha BlackEpisode 145 – Leveraging Your Author IP and Hybrid Publishing with Robert J. SawyerEpisode 004 – Optimizing Your Author Brand with Robert J. SawyerKobo Writing Life NaNoWriMo Promo (use coupon code NANO2020)Kobo Writing Life Podcast EP 97 – (Mark chats with Mickey, Robert J. Sawyer, and C.C. Humphries)Mark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections



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Mickey Mikkelson is the founder and brain child behind Creative Edge Publicity. 

Graduating from the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology with a Marketing Diploma, Mickey has been in the book industry since 2006 where he started as the Special Events Manager in St Albert, Alberta for Chapters/Indigo, the largest bookstore chain in Canada.

Ten years later, he formed Creative Edge Publicity, an aggressive boutique publicity firm that specializes in advocating for both the traditional and independent artist. Realizing there was a direct need by authors for publicity, Mickey tailored his firm to obtain media for indie authors initially and then spreading out to promoting works by traditionally published writers as well. 

In the four years that Creative Edge has been in existence, Mickey has managed to sign some of the top talents in the literary industry including multiple award winners, signing New York Times Bestsellers, and has been able to get indie authors various levels of success with many of them becoming international bestselling authors while working with the Creative Edge brand.

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Below is an automated transcription of the interview segment of this episode.

(The transcription has not been human-verified)

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Mickey. Great to see you again.

Mickey Mikkelson: Nice to see you again as well, Mark. Thanks again for bringing me on your podcast.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: It’s been so long since we’ve chatted. I think the last time, uh, the last time I was able to actually interview you for something was probably for the Kobo writing life podcast.

Mickey Mikkelson: We did a live chat.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: You gave some tips and marketing advice for authors, and that might’ve been what, three years ago? Four years ago. Yeah. Uh, when words collide, right? 2016, 2017, something like that.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah. 2017, I think. Yeah, maybe 18. It was a few, it was a while back. Yeah.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: And we’ve been in conversation and, uh, and you’ve actually, uh, you’ve actually put me in contact with some great authors, uh, that I’ve had on the podcast. But I’ve been wanting to have you on the podcast and realize, uh, all these years later, I still haven’t. So I’m so excited that we get a chance to chat.

Mickey Mikkelson: Well, thanks for doing this. I’ve been on pins and needles myself going over this, so it’s good. Awesome.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So, uh, for, uh, for my listeners, just, uh, let them know.

So what is creative edge publicity and, uh, and your background getting into this. Yeah,

Mickey Mikkelson: We’re focused for writers. Initially we started with indie writers, homely, um, and then we got into some provisional writers, but we’re all about building our clients brands. And it’s all about books, obviously, authors and such.

So we’re, we’re setting up interviews, podcasts on international scale radio TV as well. Book reviews. Um, all genres, we’re not John or specific, although 50% of our clients are probably in the scifi fantasy game. Oh really? But yeah, but end of the day, we, as to non-fiction authors, um, we have some New York times best sellers.

We have multiple award winners, international debt sellers as well. And we’ve been doing this since 2016. It’s uh, Been very, very successful overall, so

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: excellent. And I’m trying to remember, there was a really awesome smart person who said, Oh, Mark, you’ve got to meet Mickey. And I can’t remember it might’ve been an author who had been working with you.

Uh, of course I, I, I draw blanks, but it was just like, Oh, you guys have to connect. Uh, and I remember that was a pretty exciting time. It was at, at, in Calgary. Uh, when words collide

Mickey Mikkelson: was that Robert shades Sawyer, he was probably Rob,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: you know, Rob the linchpin. Who’s always connecting people. Right.

Mickey Mikkelson: Well, I’ve represented him since 2017.

He’s been like a huge advocate. So it wouldn’t surprise. And he did that. Oh, that’s, Rob’s

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: one of your clients

Mickey Mikkelson: as well. Oh, cool. Yes. Yes.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Bestselling order of Canada chase. So here.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah. He’s he was my first traditional client actually, and it just blew up from there, so, Oh, wow.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh, so, so a lot of the stuff that Rob has been doing, you’ve been working on with him, like for his last couple of book launches and things like that.

I imagine.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah, quantum nights, the first book we started off, this has been from there as well.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Well, that’s really good. Cool. So, um, you mentioned, uh, creative edge publishing started in 2016, but as I understand it, it was just recently 2020, um, that, uh, things changed, uh, the, in terms of the growth of, of creative edge.

We

Mickey Mikkelson: went full time in September, end of September, we made the decision to go full time and be more aggressive in the marketplace. Um, I was in the corporate world for eight years and situations come up and this opportunity came up and I took the plunge and we went from 40 authors to over 16, less than a month.

Wow.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: And so in the middle of a pandemic, I’m going to give the cause you’ve been doing it for a number of years, obviously had 40 clients, some huge successes there. And then it was like, let’s, let’s let’s step off the ledge and see what happens

Mickey Mikkelson: that must’ve been.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah, it was, it was nerve wracking, but I talked to my wife and my sat down with my family and we had a decision about it and it just came about, and we’re now full-time and we’re growing.

It’s great.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Fantastic. That is awesome. So how did you get into you, uh, this business now, you, you mentioned the creative edge. You work exclusively with authors, so you’re not working with musicians or other creatives. You’re working specifically with writers, authors. Um, how did you get into this business?

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah. So just to clarify, I have one musician that I work with. Oh, he’s an author, but he’s an author. Oh, okay. His name is Jackie. Jackie M joiner. He’s a number one billboard saxophonist. And he wrote an OSI five block. And so he signed me based on the fact that we’re promoting is his writing more so to his music.

But just to clarify, um, I started 2016, was working in the corporate world. A girl I work with her name is Miranda. Oh, Surely it’s the little chiclet book called, um, shit up tits out. And we got together and we talked about stuff when we were on the road in Alberta, working together and meeting our corporate clients.

And I said, cause I used to work at chapters. I said, let me help you promote you. And so we did, we did a, a Western Alberta tour together. I got a little bit of media coverage and then the word got out specifically in Calgary because that’s where I was going at the time. But we’d gone out. People ask me if I could do some same things for them that I was doing for her.

And for a little business and that’s how it all started. And now we have 60, 60 authors to date today. International media connections, huge conglomerates with a lot of book festivals and, uh, yeah, it’s good.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Wow. So I want to, I want to go back to this. I’m very curious to talk about your connections in the media and all that.

Cause that’s a really exciting thing for authors. So you were working at chapters now just to clarify for listeners who are outside of Canada and may not be familiar with this large book chain. Um, so it is a, is a ma major book chain. What is your role at chapters related to marketing? And was that something that you took on like passion?

Mickey Mikkelson: It was the Alberta Centennial, and my manager at the time asked me to set up some book signings for my store and st. Albert.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Okay.

Mickey Mikkelson: And we got 21, I got 21 authors the week of the Alberta Centennial to come to our store and do book signings. And so that’s, that’s how it all started. And actually that’s where I met Robert jury, sir, the first time, because I reached out to him and he came to my store for a book signing.

So I had a little bit of experience working with authors from that aspect. I didn’t imagine that that experience would eventually get into this. But, but it has, so, yeah. Oh,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Wow. In terms of, in terms of the services that you do for authors, so you talked about the media connections and interviews and stuff like that.

What’s a typical, what’s a typical thing that an author will come to you and say, uh, Hey Mickey, I need creative edge to do this, this and this. Like, what are some of the things they end up doing for the authors?

Mickey Mikkelson: Uh, initial interviews when I’m signing a client, I’ve had half my clients, so you’re going to get me on Allen.

And of course that never happens because she doesn’t do interviews first and foremost, but I mean, in all seriousness, um, We’re we’re building out a platform and we’re building their brands and I never guaranteed sales and never guaranteed media coverage because you just can’t guarantee those things.

But I’m all, I’m a big believer in building blocks and I’m a big believer that small opportunities as you’re building your media resume will lead to mid-range opportunities. And then ultimately large range opportunities. And I’ve seen this multiple, multiple times. So when I’m talking with authors, I’m asking them what their passion is.

I’m asking them what they want to do at their book. And I want to do these determine whether or not those opportunities are going to be real and feasible. So if that makes any sense.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh yeah. I love that. And I love the fact that you look at it like building blocks because. And everything’s cumulative, right?

Some of the little things that you do today, uh, get discovered by someone else down the road. And, uh, lo and behold, after spending time and effort like yourself, after spending four years building this business, you finally got to a place where you could feel comfortable, uh, going full time, uh, and then thus expanding the business into something larger.

Mickey Mikkelson: Absolutely. That’s true. Yeah. I’m

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: curious to know, how are you, how are you finding this now? Like any, any differences specifically from going from part-time to full-time

Mickey Mikkelson: were funny. I have more time to leverage the connections that I’ve got both from a media aspect and a book connection aspect. And so I’m not as stressed out.

I’m not up wants still up at four in the morning, which is what I’ve been doing for years. But yeah. I’m not as stressed, trying to, trying to balance what’s happening in the corporate world and trying to balance this during the day, I’ll take author phone calls. I can take off their texts. I can, I can do those things and have the freedom to do that.

So it’s been very good because I’m have more time to be more effective and pinpoint certain opportunities for certain people. And, and it’s been a lot better from that aspect, for sure.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Curious about, um, the, the passion that drives you, uh, in this business in terms of, uh, eh, how, how that might have changed or grown over the year.

Mickey Mikkelson: It’s just been so rewarding. And I said this a few times in other areas, but it’s so rewarding to work with. I say it like this. I get to work with some of the most highly intellectual. People and creatives out there on a daily, daily basis. And when I get media coverage or I get a book review for them, it’s a five star.

It is so rewarding to know that I’m the one doing that for these people. And that, that to me, you just can’t put a dollar value on that. You can’t put anything else on that. It’s okay. I can’t even explain the feeling I get when I’m, when I’m doing something like that. I mean, I work with like huge people, like New York times bestseller, Tosca Lee.

And when I get her on something and she calls me up and says, thank you, Mickey, for doing this, it just. You can’t put a price on that. Awesome.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That’s so fantastic. So, uh, what are some of the things, um, that, um, an author should consider, who is looking at hiring a company like creative edge to kind of reach out to media contacts for them, as opposed to trying to go, uh, on their own.

Mickey Mikkelson: I think that authors have done or have an understanding of what publicists do. We know what the traditional publicist, the in-house publicist that typically they’re going to work or new release for three months, and then they’re going to stop. Um, I’ve developed a process where I’m promoting the back list.

Just as hard as I’m promoting the new releases and we’re doing that on a year end basis. So the, the traction should never, never, ever fall. And I think that authors need to understand that it’s a, it’s a commitment. It’s not only a time commitment to do these things and get this media coverage and do all that.

But it’s also an understanding to be professional when they’re out there to understand. Why we’re doing what we’re doing and the marketability and, and really, they should understand what they want to do before they even look at hiring a publicist because at the other end got a direction of what they want to do.

I can’t help them if they throw me a book in a week and I say, my books out in a week, what am I going to do with that? That’s a week before the launch. I can’t do anything with that. So. That’s just one area for sure. Okay.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: From an author’s perspective, do you, uh, do authors hire you for specific projects or is it like you take on a client for X amount of time?

How does, how does that relationship typically work?

Mickey Mikkelson: I’ve had a lot of authors ask me about one-off project. And I’ll be honest, Mark. I tend to shy away from those because publicity and marketability, it takes time to build that up. And if I’m working on a two month or three month project, all the efforts that we’ve done and building that up for three months after three months, it’s, it’s typically gone.

It’s. You’re, you’re not going to build anything off of that. So I signed my clients on a year basis. Oh, that’s how the contracts were written up with auto-renewal at the end of that, the end of that year, but I’m not really looking for, and I use the word commodity all the time. I’m not. In the, in the market for, for working with people who are, are commodity based.

I want long-term relationships because that’s what I’ve built with my team, as well as my, the media. And so that’s, that’s the bottom line. I mean, If it was a mainstream author and they wanted me for a piecework project, I might look at that, but I typically don’t. I prefer relationships. That’s where we have the marketability for.

So,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: well, I like that. Yeah, because when you’re looking at that and it’s, it’s very much, I would say the way that an agent or an editor looks at an author is they’re not just buying a book from them. They’re they’re there. Creating a relationship with the author because they want to be in this for the long run.

It’s like, I’m not just worried about this next book. You’re going to write, I’m worried about the next five books you’re going to write and how we’re going to build you up and build up your brand. So,

Mickey Mikkelson: uh, that’s,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: that’s great. I love that, but,

Mickey Mikkelson: but how does, uh, so an author,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: obviously it’s most likely starts with one because somebody contacts you and says, I have a book coming out in.

Six weeks, three months, six months, two days, uh, whatever.

Mickey Mikkelson: Uh, it usually starts with that, but then it’s

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: like, okay, here’s what I can probably do for your book launch, but then here’s the longterm plan. And that’s where you look at probably their author brand in more detail. Building up, um, like what their, um, their, uh, the look and feel so that when, when you contact media and the media goes to their website, I imagine that they actually have something that’s going to

Mickey Mikkelson: catch their eye.

Yeah. I mean, and I mean, when we’re promoting authors, we, we do send out press releases as well. And we on a book launch itself. I individualize every press release. So I’m not just E blasting our release out to 600 or 400 or 300 contacts. I’m drafting up 400, typically 400 individual emails catering to those specific media pieces and individualizing it for, for, for more success.

That’s the first element of what I’m doing. Secondly, we’ve also been able to strategize and. Set up, um, set arrangements with some media places. So for 20, 20, 21, we’ve already got at least I think 30 schedules full schedules made for next year with, with, with eye areas. Um, there’s a UK radio station, the interview, one of our clients every single week.

Um, yeah. So that’s what the kind of things that we’re doing. Right. And it’s all about collaboration and connectivity. So,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: yeah. Fantastic. I, I kind of liked that long-term relationship because it actually allows you to build upon those things over time. Um,  uh, and again, it’s so much, uh, I mean, one of the things from traditional publishing, I have had publicists assigned to me from a traditional publisher

Mickey Mikkelson: and they’re great to work with.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: But they only really care about my book. Oh, a month

Mickey Mikkelson: before

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: or so. I mean, I know they’re doing work ahead of time, but usually a month before release and the month of release, and then I disappear off of their

Mickey Mikkelson: radar because they have

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: all these other titles that they have to focus on, et

Mickey Mikkelson: cetera. Exactly.

Which is why true much like yourself, which is why traditional authors will reach out to me. I mean, that’s how I signed Tosca Lee because they were only doing work for her book for three months and then they stopped. Whereas I’ve been doing, I promoting her latest geology for over a year and a half, and we’re still getting opportunities today.

So that’s, that’s the, I guess the VIP’s man, right?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh, that’s a, that’s fantastic. How, how. How does the relationship work? I’m just kind of, I’m kind of curious. So, uh, author goes to your website, sees that you have something, is there like a Q and a, is there an initial meeting you have before you decide it?

I guess it’s a two way thing, right? Like they decide they want to work with you and then you decide, can I actually do stuff for you? Or, I mean, there must be cases where you’re like, I don’t know if I can actually help

Mickey Mikkelson: you. Does that come up? It does. So every client that I sign her, every author who reaches out to me and usually through word of mouth or a client referral or, or some, or sometimes a media referral.

But I typically will have a conversation with that author for a boat, an hour to find out what they want to do, how they want to do it, whether or not I’m going to be a fit for them. And then of course the pricing piece comes up as well. So we talk about that as well, but it’s typically an hour long conversation to make sure that there’s a connection because I don’t, and I’ve said this before, but I don’t sign authors based on the strength of what they’re writing or their books.

I sign authors on their personality and how well, I think I can work with that individual. And more importantly, Are they going to be a fit for my team? Because what one author does in an interview basically affects 15, nine other people. So if that makes any sense. Oh yeah, that’s

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: true. Because if you set someone up and it’s a really bad experience, then the producer of that radio show, it’s probably like, ah, no, no, no.

Mickey sent me this other person and I don’t know if everyone else is like them.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I mean, we’ve, we’ve developed a huge community. I mean, our team is our team and if you don’t fit within that team, you’re not going to have success with us. Is the relationships going to end badly?

And then I’m going to be looked down upon because it didn’t go well, and I don’t want that to ever happen. So, um, yeah, we have a long, we have an hour long conversation. Usually once that author signed as well, hallmark, I’m usually having a conversation with every member. Usually within a week to every two weeks to make sure that we’re on track with everything we were doing.

So the communication never, never stops.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah, I can imagine. And I imagine that’s so much easier, uh, now that it’s, full-time rather than trying to relegate that to work evenings and weekends and things like that.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah. I mean, it’s still, there’s a little, still a little bit of that, but not as much as there used to.

I can, I can now watch football on Sundays and I’ll feel guilty about it.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So what, what is, um, budget wise for an author who’s considering, um, you know, working with someone like creative edge, what’s a, uh, range that an author should be

Mickey Mikkelson: considering. I can’t speak to what other PR firms are charging. Um, I I’ve heard some horror stories just based on clients that I’ve signed and those, those dollars are in the thousands on a monthly basis.

Um, typically I won’t obviously broadcast my full fees, but because of privacy and respect that, right. Working with creative edge, you’re probably looking in the ballpark between 300 and $500 a month. Max. Um, the one thing I will say is we’ve structured our, our projects and our contracts to say that if I never book an author, anything they’re not paying me anything.

I don’t take a monthly retainer up front. Um, all the opportunities are based on what I’ve booked for them. So all the emails I’m sending out, the press release, draft, all of that. I don’t get paid for any of that. I get paid on what those authors are booked, but on average, an author, yeah. On average and authors typically paying between one 50 and $300 a month.

Okay today, now that could change down the road, but

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: yeah, of course. And that’s going to change over time as, um, as a, as other circumstances change that makes it, but that just kind of gives an author an idea of what it’s. And so I’m really curious about that. So you’re doing a lot of the groundwork.

You’re doing a lot of that legwork. So if you’ve sent out, for example, if I can follow this path, you’ve sent out a bunch of press releases. You’ve signed an author because you believe that, you know, working together can be a great experience. And you’ve got a specific media that you’re going to be pitching because you think that would be a good for them too.

Um, and you, and you pitch a bunch of these things and you get a bunch, uh, maybe you get some nibbles or whatever, but nothing gets booked. Does that mean that all that work you’ve did you don’t get paid for? Uh, and the author only pays if, if they’ve landed like a radio interview or, or maybe a newspaper article or something like that.

Mickey Mikkelson: That’s correct. If they don’t get it, they don’t get booked for the opportunity. They’re not paying for the opportunity. So it’s, the results are not

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: necessarily sales cause you can never guarantee sales, but the re the results are actually getting, uh, getting in to get the interview, getting in, to be, uh, to be in, in whatever that media

Mickey Mikkelson: is.

That’s right. So it’s really important from my side to build those media relationships, to ensure that we’re, we’re getting coverage. And we’ve done that, um, in a number of different areas,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: I’m the, I’m the head

Mickey Mikkelson: interview. I set up all the inner wall, all the creative edge interviews for top shelf magazine, and we’ve got a set arrangement with them.

We set up all their book reviews as well, but we’ve done this multiple, multiple times with different vehicles and it’s been successful. So. When an author says, can you guarantee me interviews? I probably can. At this point now it’s not going to be Fox news or a CVS, but it’s going to be reader base bloggers.

Right. That are going to attract readers who are going to buy those books. So yeah, it’s successful in that aspect.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That’s fantastic. So, so the media you’re dealing with is, uh, is print, right? So magazines, newspapers, online, um, radio podcasts, uh, I guess video as well, like video, um,

Mickey Mikkelson: Yep. Yup. And I mean, I’ve worked with some authors.

Who’ve told me, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m established, so you’re going to get me on Forbes and Huffington post and all these big places I’ve signed those clients. I could probably get them on those places, but the opportunities they’ve gotten with me have not been those places. They’ve been more reader focused.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Right. Right.

Mickey Mikkelson: And, and they’ve actually sold more books as a result of that, because now it’s not just the general public that they’re seeing exposure on, but it’s the reader public and the readers are the ones that buy books. Yeah,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: and

Mickey Mikkelson: that is true because

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: big media may reach a number of people, but a very, very small percentage of the population actually reads.

So, so that, that doesn’t make sense. So focus, instead of focusing on the big splash, you’re focusing on very specific targeted where, where you know that there’s going to be readers there. Wow. Exactly. I like

Mickey Mikkelson: that. And with that too, to that point, though, with that, you’re building your media resume. So as you get more and more of those onto the resume piece, places like CBS and CTV are seeing that I’m like, Oh, well this person’s done this so we should bring them on because obviously.

There’s interest. So that’s happened multiple times. Oh,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: that’s fantastic.

Mickey Mikkelson: So,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: yeah, again, yeah. I love that building blocks longterm. It’s not like a quick flash in the pan sort of thing. What are, what are some of the misconceptions that writers, uh, you, I’m sure you’ve encountered writers that have misconceptions about what, what a publicist does or what your, what your firm will do for them.

Mickey Mikkelson: There’s a misconception that all publicists do is take money up front and not work with authors to get opportunities. Okay. Um, it’s frustrating because I can’t over 10 times I’ve had author interviews and they’re very, very guarded, especially when it comes to the price piece, because they’ve worked with a publicist who they spend a lot of money on.

And that publicist didn’t get them anything. And so I’m up against that as well. Um,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh, okay.

Mickey Mikkelson: Yeah, if that makes any sense. Um, so that’s, that’s the stigma around what we do is that we’re all about the money, but we’re not about to get, get you opportunities, which is why I priced the way I price, because then there’s no risk from that author piece.

Right. As well.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Right. So, yeah. So for example, if, if, uh, if you take on a client and that would be, let’s say an average of 300 to $500 a month, or something like that, that’s only in the months where there was actually some action. There was only some, some, some, some bites, uh, to, to go back to, you know, fishing routes.

So

Mickey Mikkelson: not just,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: not just putting the lines in the water, but the actual getting a bite.

Mickey Mikkelson: Okay. That’s right. So we are going to get minerals. Sometimes we’re going to get. Um, tuna. Sometimes, sometimes we want you to be a whale. It really depends on where works and the fishing analogy. Cause I like that.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah. It depends on the specific bait that you put specific and unique to the media and the author in question

Mickey Mikkelson: exactly a hundred percent.

That’s good. Uh, what are some of the

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: strategies related to pitching, pitching a book or an author to the media? What are some of the things that you have to consider when you’re, when you’re doing that?

Mickey Mikkelson: I think that, that question really, it really depends on what, what the author brings to the table. First and foremost.

Um, someone like Tosca Lee, who’s a New York times bestseller and has won multiple awards this year for her latest duology. I mean, that pitch is going to be a lot different than in indie author who just wrote their first book and we’re, we’re trying to get them stuff. So. I, I think that’s where you gauge the smaller opportunities versus the medium opportunities.

And as you get more small opportunities, medium and large opportunities will come. So the pitch really depends on what the author is bringing to the table. And in fact, um, in one instance I had an author. Her name is Catherine Hudson. She wrote a book that she got a lot of five-star reviews line, but she wasn’t working with me at the time.

So we essentially relaunched her book a year later. Um, and we did that formally with a press release. All of that. The book became an international bestseller. Wait a second.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: And the book had already been out for a year. It wasn’t a new release, but it was the, it was the push to actually, well, a book you’ve not read as a new book.

Right,

Mickey Mikkelson: right, right. Yeah. So the book was out for a year. It had some reviews. Didn’t get a huge amount of traction, but it’s now an international bestseller cause we relaunched it. Um, she’s been featured in curve magazine. She’s been featured of file seven 17, which is the biggest site by site. There is fan wise.

Um, and we, and we did that. So that’s the kind of thing like being inventive and thinking outside the box. Right. Oh,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: that is, uh, that is awesome. So, uh, questions I know that listeners have is you’re currently taking or looking at considering nucleus right now.

Mickey Mikkelson: Always, always, never ends. It never ends.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That’s fantastic.

So

Mickey Mikkelson: where, where can,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: uh, authors who are interested in creative edge publicity? Where can they, where can they find

Mickey Mikkelson: you online? So my website is www, um, creative dash. I just thought services. And, um, my contact info is there. I’m on Facebook, I’m on Twitter at mm, creative. And, um, you know, I represent 60 people worldwide.

So. Facebook, all that good stuff.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Awesome. And I trust you will send me those links so I can include them in the show notes. It’s dark reflections.ca. Awesome. Well, Mickey, I’m really excited to go check this out. Thank you so much for, for sharing the details, uh, in the background for creative edge.

Mickey Mikkelson: Well, thanks.

Thanks again, Mark. For having me on it was so, so much of a blast.

Episode 162 – Happy Accidents with Joshua Pantalleresco

Mark interviews Joshua Pantalleresco, the host of Just Joshing, an Aurora Award Winning podcast that features Joshua interviewing authors and other creatives and business people about life, the universe, and everything.

Prior to the main content, Mark shares comments from recent episodes, shares a personal update, welcomes a new patron (Connor Whiteley) and a word from this episode’s sponsor.

This episode is sponsored by:

You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

In their conversation, Mark and Joshua talk about:

How Joshua could sum up his career as one great big accidentThe books and authors Joshua loved reading, and the novel he wrote when still in high schoolJosh’s start interviewing people for a comic book websiteHow working for one of his heroes led to a great moment of trial and tribulation for JoshuaHow a miscommunication about an interview Josh did with Robert J. Sawyer led to his recent podcastThe fact that chocolate chip cookies were initially an accident – and look how they turned outHow creating and sharing actually helps others to keep creating and sharing themselvesHow staring down the Grim Reaper can humble a person in a very real wayThe strength that it takes to be open and vulnerableA few things that Joshua is afraid of and something he is trying out that he has always wanted to doWhat makes Joshua ruthless and brutally honestReflections on the bad experience he’d had with a hero of his that he worked withPerspectives on optimism, realism and cynicism

After the conversation, Mark reflects on the benefits that come with being willing to take a risk.

Links of Interest:

Joshua Pantalleresco’s WebsiteJoshua on TwitterJoshua on InstagramJoshua on YouTubeMark’s NaNoWriMo ProfileEpisode 161 – NaNo No-No’sEpisode 160 – Growing, Experimenting, and Collaborations with Mark DawsonKobo Writing Life NaNoWriMo Promo (use coupon code NANO2020)Mark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections



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Joshua Pantalleresco is a writer, poet, podcaster and freelancer. His Podcast Just Joshing is a three time Aurora Award Winning Finalist and one time winner.

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The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 161 – NaNoWriMo No-No’s

In this episode Mark shares some tips for NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month), as well as an overview of his previous NaNoWriMo experiences, sharing the errors, the mistakes, and the failures he has made along the way.

Prior to the main content, Mark shares comments from recent episodes, a personal update, and a word from this episode’s sponsor.

This episode is sponsored by:

You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

[image error]Mark’s NaNoWriMo Progress so far in 2020

[image error]Overview of previous NaNoWriMo projects

[image error]The “Commune” poster that Liz created for Mark’s NaNoWriMo 2015 project.

Links of Interest:

Mark’s NaNoWriMo ProfileEpisode 160 – Growing, Experimenting, and Collaborations with Mark DawsonEpisode 100 – Another Publishing Industry First with Mark DawsonEpisode 146 – Finding Yourself in Our Song with Meaghan SmithKobo Writing Life NaNoWriMo Promo (use coupon code NANO2020)Meaghan SmithRude Awakenings from Sleeping RoughMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 160 – Mark Dawson on Growing, Experimenting and Collaborations within Publishing

In this episode Mark catches up with Mark Dawson to see how his publishing collaboration with Welbeck has been going as well as to find out about some new writing and publishing projects.

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This episode is sponsored by:

You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

Prior to the interview Mark shares the following:

Comments from recent episodesA welcome to new patronsA personal update that includes:Short story writing deadlines (2 target hits with 1 to go)Recent media appearances related to a new book (and the fact that it’s Halloween)The song Mark commissioned from Meaghan Smith for his fiance Liz’s 50th birthday to go with the artwork commissioned from Josh Vogt.  (Both called “Wonder Woman”)A recent music parody Mark created inspired by “The Monster Mash”

In their conversation Mark and Mark discuss:

How the role of “writer” is Mark’s prime passionThe way Mark protects his writing time despite wearing many hats in the industryRecently hiring a PA (Personal Assistant)The importance of having a team that he can trustMark’s daily ritual to ensure he gets writing done every dayThe office Mark has rented that allows him to get writing and podcast work doneHow a change of scenery can be helpful to writingHow John Milton often leaves a place in worse shape when he leaves itThe multiple influences that went into the creation of the John Milton characterThe way that place, news items, and other factors combine for Mark to create a scenario to drop Milton into to watch how he interacts and reacts in that situationHow Mark avoids the “Murder She Wrote Conceit”How traveling to a conference often negatively affects his writing productivityThe release of The Cleaner in hardcover from Welbeck Publishing and the impact of the pandemic on that.The planned release of the mass market version of the books and the next book in the seriesThe “After School Detectives Club” books that Mark is collaborating on and how it was inspired by his daughterHow Mark shares what works and what doesn’t work with various publishing projects and experiments he tries outWhat Mark is looking forward to for the last two months of 2020Some of the forthcoming courses Mark’s company will be releasingAnd more…

After the interview Mark reflects on the larger perspective of the industry and how an author like Mark Dawson, who has already sold over 4 million copies of his eBooks still has such a gigantic untapped market of readers to reach who have never heard of him.

Links of Interest:

Mark DawsonSelf Publishing FormulaEpisode 100 – Another Publishing Industry First with Mark DawsonEpisode 159 – Many Roads of Creativity with Sarah Beth GoerEpisode 105 – Location Based Storytelling with VoiceMapEpisode 146 – Finding Yourself in Our Song with Meaghan SmithKobo Writing Life NaNoWriMo Promo (use coupon code NANO2020)Meaghan SmithCTV News Sudbury (Mark’s interview on Oct 26)Sudbury Star ArticleSudbury Dot Com ArticleHamilton CHML Article About Virtual Ghost WalkVirtual Ghost Walk Downtown Hamilton (VoiceMap)Mark’s Hamilton Public Library Reading – BrowsersMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections

Mark Dawson has worked as a lawyer and in the London film industry. His first books, The Art of Falling Apart and Subpoena Colada, have been published in multiple languages. He is currently writing three series. The John Milton series features a disgruntled assassin who aims to help people make amends for the things that he has done. The Beatrix Rose series features the headlong fight for justice of a wronged mother–who happens to be an assassin–against the six names on her Kill List. Soho Noir is set in the West End of London between 1940 and 1970. The first book in the series, The Black Mile, deals with the (real-life but little-known) serial killer who operated in the area during the Blitz. The Imposter traces the journey of a criminal family through the period; it has been compared to The Sopranos in austerity London. Mark lives in Wiltshire with his family.

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Below is an automated transcription of the interview segment of this episode.

(The transcription has not been human-verified)

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Mark, welcome back to the Stark Reflections podcast.

Mark Dawson: Hello, glad to be here.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: I’m always curious because people in our spaces, we know Mark Dawson, right? We, we hail Dawson as the, the master who, who leads and leads the way for so many authors. But. I’m always curious to know when you’re out in public with normal folks, not, not creative people and writers and then stuff like that.

Now let’s, let’s pretend this is pre pandemic time. So there’s no mask on your face or any of that other stuff. But, um, when you’re out in public and people ask what you do, what’s your sort of like your elevator line or what’s the two, two or three lines that you, that you share?

Mark Dawson: Yeah. When I tell them I’m a writer, that’s kind of what I that’s my.

I have a few businesses now as, as, as you know, um, and if you made me pick one, it would be that one. So, um, if I had to, I’ve said it before, if I, someone told me I’d never be able to sell another book again, I would still ripe because that’s something that I’d love to do. So that, that would be the one that achieved.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So that’s always the, uh, yeah, because you do wear so many hats, but writing is your prime passion.

Mark Dawson: Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So with that being said, um, Because you do so many things, you, you, you basically help writers. You, you have a whole team dedicated to supporting the industry and other writers. How do you maintain your writing time or how do you protect your writing time?

Mark Dawson: Well, you’ve kind of answered that. I mean, that, that, that’s how I do it with a team. So I wouldn’t be able to do a lot of the SPF stuff, anything really outside of writing if it was just me. So, um, the, the kind of the writing side of things. So the, the books that I write that is really just me there isn’t anybody else?

Um, I’ve got a VA now. Actually, no, I’ve got a PA now. Which is a reasonably recent hire. So she helps me with bits and bolts where she’s, she doesn’t have any experience of, of the industry. So I’m very slowly giving her little things to do that will teach her, um, what I do. And she’s, she’s taken one of the, you take the one Oh one course, the SPF course.

So kind of the foundation course. So that’s, that’s quite helpful, but yeah, in terms of, um, how I, how I managed to keep rising it is to have a really good team that I trust. Um, so James. And John and Tom and the rest of the team who, who operate SPF, that enables me to take a strategic view of that business and to be able to, um, you know, see, I know where we need to go and I’ll tell them and they trust me and they’ll go and do it.

And, and it’s worked very well. And that enables me then to concentrate, at least in the mornings, maybe for an hour or two after lunch, on, on writing, um, and marketing my own stuff.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Cool. So let’s, let’s look at the typical Mark Dawson day now, uh, just, uh, for people who are just listening to this, not, not looking at the video you were in your office.

I think the last time we interviewed, uh, it was late at night for you. So, uh, you were in your home, but you’re in your office now. Um, is that part of the, the, the Workday for you? How does it, what does a typical weekday work

Mark Dawson: look like for you? Yeah. So I have two little ones as well, so I’m, I’d get up at six.

Um, and, um, I’ll get the kids up, get them their breakfast and started doing a few little chores around the house. Um, Losing my wife usually takes them to school. So she, she takes him off at eight. O’clock get some school, I then walk the dog for an hour. Um, so that’s my kind of my exercise time, a bit of podcast time, or maybe just thinking time is, you know, I’ve always had my best ideas when I’m walking.

So I’ll take a scout for an hour, get back to the desk about nine o’clock. Um, and then I’ll, I’ll usually start writing. Um, so the, the morning is usually is either writing fresh stuff, editing, um, or, or just kind of. The creative side of things, I would typically wouldn’t do anything else after anything else beyond that?

I don’t answer emails. Try not to get onto social media or the internet too much, or that’s not one of my strengths I can easily be. Um, uh, procrastination is, is quite tempting for me, so I can easily fall into that trap. I’ll then have lunch. Um, and then sometimes oftentimes I’ll come into the office here.

So, um, okay. I have a couple of rooms in Salisbury, um, in an, you know, an old, old building where I have peace and quiet, no one really comes in here apart from me. Um, so this room here is where we do the podcast. So I’ll be speaking to James, but later on in that camera, you can see behind me will be, I’ll be turning around and facing that way in that room.

There is a slightly larger rewear. I have a standing desk. Um, and, um, I’ll, I’ll typically do. The writing or, or, um, emails. Um, I dictate emails now. So I often come in here and I have, uh, I have dragon, which just enables me to we’re three miles, much faster, um, and you know, ads and the kinds of things that I can do standing up, um, rather than sitting down, constantly on writing.

Um, and I finish between four 30 or five most days, and then that will usually be it. I don’t work in the evenings. I don’t work weekends.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Brilliant. Brilliant. I love that you protect your family life too, right?

Mark Dawson: Well, yeah, absolutely. That’s, that’s important. There’s not much point in, um, in doing what I do if I don’t see my kids and my wife, so I don’t, um, I’m pretty.

Careful to make sure that that doesn’t impinge. And also it’s not necessarily also a choice because the kids are quite young. They’re eight and six and they don’t care what daddy does. And you know, I can tell them not to go into the office and they’ll completely ignore that. And, um, yeah, so it’s not really, I don’t have a choice really when it comes to that, but I’m, I’m fine with that.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: But is that, is that also a mindset thing or where you go into the office? It’s good. Obviously you’re paying rent there. Therefore it’s an investment, therefore you better get better. Damn well come up with something.

Mark Dawson: Yeah, it think there’s a bit of that. I mean, it’s not that expensive when I know I’ve probably rented this place for about three or maybe four years now.

And, and. It’s 4,000 pounds a year. So maybe $6,000. It’s not, Oh, wow. That’s actually really money. Wow. Yeah. It’s not a huge amount of money. I mean, it’s supposed to be, you know, it’s two rooms, basically. It’s not, um, it’s nothing swanky or fancy or anything like that. Um, And it’s not necessarily a money thing.

It is just kind of a change of scenery thing. I tend to get a little, I can get a little bit bored in the same place. Um, and it’s quite nice to be able to come in here at the standing desk is really cool as well, and just different environments. So this is kind of. My correspondence desk. If you like, where I’ll do emails and you do podcasts next door, we’ll be up to the desk up.

I usually started the, in the office. I’ll put the desk up. I might do some writing. Um, I might run some ads, check how ads are performing, that kind of thing. Um, so it was just kind of different places. And changing places regularly keeps helps me to keep fresh and to just keep doing the, doing the work.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So I have to ask, because, uh, you talked about, um, when you’re walking the dog, sometimes you don’t have anything in your ears, like no podcasts or whatever, you’re actually using that for ideas and thinking.

Does that mean that you dictate? I know you don’t dictate your writing, but you dictate any of the ideas that come to you.

Mark Dawson: No, not normally. I’ll sometimes I’ll very rarely I’ll, I’ll dictate it, email to myself and, and send that with within notes. Sometimes I’ll open notes on the phone and just jot something down.

But usually I remember things, you know, I, I had, um, I’ve just finished the, or at least I thought I had finished the first draft within the, what, the 18th Milton book. And it had a very, very bleak ending. Um, and I was quite pleased with it on Friday, but then I, what was I doing? Well, just reading something about another, another series that I like.

And. And also thinking some of the bad reviews I’ve got is that when Milton does things, at least in the early days, he often leaves things in a worse position than them. He found them. And whilst I think that can be realistic, it’s also a bit of a downer. Um, and, and I just, I reconsider, I was like, I just want to think about now that I don’t think that is the right, that is the right way to end this book.

Um, so a character who was going to. Wasn’t going to make it is now in the process of being resurrected. And, um, and, and Milton was about to do something that would have, would have been completely in character, but would have been quite a negative change for him. And I’ve decided that, that this might not be the right time because it would come to the end of the book.

It’s not a happy way to end it. And, and it’s kind of. You know, he’s come along and made things worse again. So I’m going to change it. So that, that doesn’t, that’s not the ending of this book and we’ll kind of hold that for another time.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So you see, this is, this is, this is fascinating to me because a lot of readers who love, uh, Lee child’s Jack Reacher.

Are our fans of John Milton, right? Like people like they can’t get enough of, of that kind of character. And they’re very similar, right. Uh, characters. So what, what Diane Capri, who, you know, friend of ours as done, she’s friends with Lee child and she’s, she’s written the hunt for Jack Reacher series, which follows along the mess that recruit leaves behind these FBI agents on a sale.

So I’m almost thinking it’s like, Well, there needs to be somebody on the trail of Melton. So

Mark Dawson: there’s a whole

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: opportunity here for some, for some ingenious person.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. Yeah. That’s an interesting idea. Now. He said he does make messes now to get them, but he’s getting better.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Okay, that’s good. He’s well, he’s, he’s growing as a character, of course, 18, 18 novels.

And he’s going to have to have grown up a little, right?

Mark Dawson: Yeah, exactly.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So 18 green books with Milton. I want to talk about that. So as a, as a, as a creator, uh, I, I don’t think Milton was your first, uh, but probably probably one of the characters that resonates with you. I know you have other, other characters in that universe.

Uh, but that’s probably one that resonates with you. I th I think you remember, uh, I remember you talking about how he was partially inspired by the equalizer.

Mark Dawson: Yeah, there’s tons of, there’s tons of integrations for Milton, but he was not necessarily the Denzel Washington equalizer. The original

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: yeah.

Mark Dawson: Yes.

Show from the eighties. Yeah. So that, that was, that was a big influence on me. I used to love that as a child when I’m just about old enough to be able to watch that and enjoy it and how it was in 15, 16, especially younger, um, and enjoyed that. And so there was a bit of that. There’s a bit of the, kind of the gritty.

Daniel Craig casino, Royale bond. Not really so much any, I don’t put it like the films after casino Royale, but that one I’ve loved. Um, yeah, it’s a bit of that. Um, and obviously, you know, I’m a writer. We, you know, we we’ll we’ll um, Put little bits and pieces of our own experience into our characters is it’s in, in the table already.

So there’s, there’s certainly plenty of myself in, in Milton and, and other people that I know and I’ve known through the years. So it all kind of meshes together and, and, and, and his character is fairly well formed now. Um, so he’s, um, he’s going to have a consistent idea of what he would or wouldn’t do in certain circumstances.

He is growing, it makes mistakes, but tries to do better. And I think that’s, that’s why readers have stuck with him. So well,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So I have to ask them at this point in time with almost 20 books in, in Milton’s universe is have you, did you have in mind any of the story arc things that are happening or do they, or have you plotted this out or have you pants the series?

Mark Dawson: No, I, I, I didn’t imagine that it would get to, I didn’t know that I’d ever write more than one, so I, I hadn’t, um, I wasn’t confident enough that they would be an arc that I could plot out. So, and the, this kind of series episodic series doesn’t really have an arc. And it’s kind of the easy thing with when it comes to Milton is, um, I understand him as a character and I know what his motivations are and what he would want to do in certain situations.

Um, I then look at the news and I see interesting things I think would be, I’d love to write about all places I’d like to kind of visit virtually or physically, and then. I have an idea of place. I don’t have an idea of a storyline I’ll drop melted into it and then see what happens. And that’s, I can do the reason why it’s 18 books deep is because it’s, there’s always something to write about.

So, you know, it could be anything that the newspapers are full of ideas for this kind of series with injustice and, um, People going up against, and I’ve done books on, um, people smuggling from Cali to the UK, you know, people trying to get into the country and, and having people dying in the channel cause they can’t cross from one to the other.

Um, and I’ve done books on politics. I’ve done arms dealing. Um, I’ve done, um, kind of all kinds of things and, and not necessarily, I’ve always tried not to do the beaks sweeping. Must save the world tight narrative, which Lee child is occasionally stumble into. And those are always my least favorite of those books.

But I think you can only, you know, you can only really do that once, you know, if reach was prevented. I don’t think there was one, but where he there’s nuclear weapons involved and he gets 48 hours of home and what it’s called now, but one of the early books and, um, The scope feels too broad for me.

Whereas the kind of the scope I like is closed in it’s very personally, it doesn’t involve, um, vastly powerful gangsters. It often involves gangsters who are terrorizing a city block, um, where it just feels more personal. And, and, and, you know, I don’t expect Milton is not going to go in and, um, and take down, you know, North Korean dictator.

That’s not really what he does, but he might go in and, and. The last book that was published involved, uh, um, an autistic child, autistic teenager, who bought a van and auction and then finds himself being chased by various people who also want the van. So it’s really, it’s a closed in kind of narrow focus, but those, they feel much more dramatic.

Incredible to me.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Well, yeah. I mean, cause you, you then avoid what I like to call it. What is it? The, uh, the murder she wrote conceit where this really, really small town has like the highest murder rate in the world

Mark Dawson: then. Yeah,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: absolutely. Yeah. Otherwise it was like, Oh, well Milton saved the world yet again, every week there’s a new, there’s a new thing.

That’s good. Yeah. And that, but, but, but he also is on the move too. So that allows you. The opportunity to explore different regions and stuff like

Mark Dawson: that. It’s so it’s so much fun to write cause he isn’t stuck in one place. Each book is set in a different place. And so this one I’m writing now is set in Bali and in Tokyo.

Um, so two fun places to write about it. Yeah. Oh, you’ve been crashing all

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: the places you’ve been to, right?

Mark Dawson: Yeah. Yeah. That was a tax deductible, of course. And that, that was, um, There was a conference invited with 20 books. So Craig and Michael were kind enough to invite me to speak there. So that was a, and that was a while ago.

It was a couple years ago, but he’s only, now that I’ve, I’ve been able to think of it, of a story that would involve a visit to.  um, and the next bit will be in the outer Hebrides. So it, you know, kind of in the North of Scotland so I can go anywhere. I want, as long as I can think of a reason why Milton would be there.

Um, I can set them anywhere I want, which keeps it fresh.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That’s fantastic. So I have to. Uh, I have to say, because you’re in demand as a speaker, as a, as a, you know, an icon of our industry, uh, sharing info and resources with people. Um, the pandemic, obviously, I mean, it was just coming into play as you were doing a massive conference in London that I was not able to make it to.

I was worried about getting stuck in London because we had, uh, tickets to the Dominican Republic and I didn’t want to be. Stuck in quarantine and miss my, we didn’t go on the vacation as well. So I missed it anyways, but, but I remember it was just at the, at the, at the, at the cusp of this. And I, I know we would have seen each other at Novelis sank just a couple of weeks ago.

Um, so obviously you’re not traveling. Has that actually allowed you more

Mark Dawson: time for writing? Um, I guess so probably, I mean, just in the sense that if I go to Florida at, for Nick, I won’t write for a week from then if I go to Vegas for the 20 columns, again, I wouldn’t write for a week because there are lots of other things, even with the best intentions.

If I say I’m going to write in the morning at a conference, I won’t, because I go to some Pete speech, I’m going to go on the beach less than I’m not going to be, pretend to fool myself. I’m going to go for a run on the beach. I’m going to get one of those. Cabanas and sit down and read for three hours. So, um, yeah, I, I see he’s at least added at least a couple of weeks, extra writing time.

And also that I haven’t had to do preparations, so I always try to, you know, give as good a presentation as I can. And that’s not, I can’t just wing that. It’s gotta be a bit of prep involved in that as well. And then maybe that’s another couple of days worth of work, so yeah. And I’ve, I’ve probably had more time now.

Um, But at the same time, I miss not me. I have to go to those places because you know, it’s always really good fun to hang out with other writers. And it also recharges the creative batteries to be around others who do what we do. Right.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Well, so I have to ask because, cause I know you Vegas and, and uh, and, and st.

Pete has Melton ever appeared in any of those places

Mark Dawson: he’s been to Vegas. Um, he has been to Vegas twice, actually, I think, but he’s not been to some pizza beach. Um, I have been thinking about writing. I saw bloodline the kind of Netflix show, which was. Pretty good. Um, and it’s set down in the keys. Um, I quite like the idea of something down there, so, you know, maybe he’ll be going to folder in the knottiest.

There we

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: go. I can recommend some great breweries down there. If you want them to interact there.

Mark Dawson: I thought you might’ve had to say that.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So, uh, we, we were talking a little bit about, um, um, the last podcast, uh, this historic groundbreaking, uh, deal. You signed with Welbeck for Milton, where in a nutshell, They had the rights to the print books, you maintain all the ebook, audio book rights, et cetera.

And there was no advance where normally an author of your statute would be a six or seven figure advance for, for, uh, for books like that. But there was no advance and you guys did a pretty equitable split on that. Um,

Mark Dawson: yeah.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That was episode 100 of this podcast, a very landmark in, in two different ways. I think, I think it was a significant move forward in, in publishing, but now it’s been 10 months, uh, nine months since, since the release, roughly.

Uh, cause I, unfortunately the launch happened because this was. Bookstore and, and distribution in airports and everywhere, except the world changed as the books were starting to come out. How, how has that

Mark Dawson: gone? It’s actually going quite well. So the, the, the launch first book with the cleaner, the hardback version was, I think it was the 25th of June.

So it’s been, um, obviously we were planning it as three lockdown and I mean, planning for longer than that, but we were doing work through lockdown and yeah. We weren’t sure. Um, there were some, you know, should we postpone it? And I, my view was initially let’s just put it back a year, so we’d release it June, 2021.

Um, but the, the guys at Welbeck are much better at this than I am. I mean, I wouldn’t even, I’m not even. In the same conversation when it comes to selling print books in stores. So they, they kind of held their nerve and they, we had, it’s not, I haven’t given them the rights it, what we’ve got is it’s a joint venture.

So yeah, it’s a little different from a normal deal in that. We’ve, you know, I. My contribution to the joint venture is the IP and their contribution is well, you know, money, expertise, um, all the things I can’t do right. And things that they’re very good at. So we, we had jazz and they said that I think we should, we should go for it because the.

And we waited. We had two weeks before we could have pulled, we could have pushed him and, um, things were starting to open up. So I think, um, the stores in the UK had opened, again, things like travel stores, which they would have been. We had a big order for air site books, bookstores, and they were all shut.

So that, that was kind of off the table, but they had got placement in the main supermarkets in the UK. Um, which was, it was the main thing. Um, and. They said, I think we should, we should go for it. And just, you know, they were absolutely right because when the bookstores opened, we were the second week after they opened the first week, there was a rush of people who wanted books.

Uh, and the second week that continued and I saw some stats on it, not too long ago that this, this quarter for bookstores has been really strong, good people. Wanting to buy books. So, um, it was the right call. Um, but it would have made the wrong call. Um, so it was, that’s a good, that’s a good, um, lesson there and you know, you’re going into a deal like this.

Part of the reason for doing that is because you want to take advantage of someone else’s expertise. And there wouldn’t be much point in doing the deal. If I had it, I said, I don’t want to, I don’t want to follow your advice. I want to push it. So they work. They was absolutely right on that.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: I think, I think that that speaks to, uh, the, the business acumen that you have in approaching the writing and publishing business as, as, as, as knowledgeable and worldly as you are, when it comes to ebook sales and analytics and, and, and ads and all of the things that you help people with, you recognize that this, these guys know the distribution channel annals and, and that in a way that you know you and I couldn’t talk now.

So that’s,

Mark Dawson: that’s

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: fantastic. Yeah. I’m curious though, as a, as a, as a writer, are you now getting fan letters from a different type of reader that is only discovered you in print, but still, probably hasn’t picked up any book?

Mark Dawson: Um, yes, but not. It’s weird. I mean, I’ve in the back of the print book, which is to on YouTube on the back of the book here, um, there is an opportunity, you know, in the way that I would recommend.

All offers should do this. And they’re eBooks. There is a, there’s a message from me, inviting people to join the maybe list and they get a free ebook. And so there’s a separate list so I can track how many people come in through that route. That’s the only way that they could get onto that list is by buying that book and seeing that in the back.

I think there’s been 11 people who’ve taken that up and that’s wow. That’s right. They’re print. Yeah. They’re print readers. Exactly. And in terms of, I mean, so 10 out of, I’m not sure exactly how many have been sold now. It’s probably I’m, I’m guessing here. So I wouldn’t take this. I wouldn’t say this is gospel, but it’s around between eight and 10,000 a hundred thought in terms of copies sold, and Tony have 10 just indicates that that particular method, which works extremely well for digital readers does not work.

Really at all when it comes to print. So I’m going to have to think about another, another way to tie those fans to me in a way that I can reach them in the same way that I would with, with, um, uh, ebook readers.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Although it’s part of me wonders. How many of your rabid fans go? Oh my God. I knew hardcover. I can now start collecting my favorite author.

Put, put them on my shelf. So they’re like, yeah, I’m already on his list. I don’t need to say like there’s none of the there, right?

Mark Dawson: There’s been hundreds of those hundreds of readers, both UK and us have bought copies because we signed them as well. So they have a signed hardback. It’s a really nice cover.

It’s just a nice thing to have on the shelf. And so hundreds of readers have done that, but they would be in a big minority competitive readers who are reading this for the first time he’d go into as Dell or Tescos. And see, the hard back that they can have is five pounds was the prize, which is really competitive.

Um, because you know, the, the way I’m, I’m completely with down with, well Beck’s opinion on this is that I don’t, I’ve sold 4 million eBooks, something in that kind of ballpark. Um, but for most readers, Most people don’t know who I am. They have never heard of me before. Um, especially people who buy print.

Um, so we, we wanted a really attractive price in the same way that we have, you know, those kinds of, you know, 99 cent first in series, because you want to, you’ve got to overcome some natural resistance there from readers who might not have heard of you before. So same principle, um, as far as we can see, it’s worked pretty well, but, um, in order to, you know, getting them on the list, I’m going to have to be more creative.

I think.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Well, cool. So that’s the first one in the series. So I’m, I’m glad things are going well. So that means that this is going to continue so that those collectors can start to get the other books as they roll out. What is the release schedule? Has that changed at all?

Mark Dawson: Or. Um, no, no, it hasn’t really. So the, um, the hardback came out in June, the, the mass market paper back.

So there’s a paperback edition of this book comes out in towards the end of December, um, with, so with a kind of a Christmas push and then we get the chance to effectively relaunch it early January. So it gets to two bites of the cherry there. So it’s already, um, We’ve had big orders from, um, the same kind of people, supermarkets, um, stipulated Smiths, which is one of the big chains here.

Um, they they’ve taken quite a few, um, books, which is great. They’re going to be similarly aggressively priced. And then the second book in the series comes out. Um, I think it’s April or may or something like that in, in hardback. So again, another I’ve seen the cover for that one. It’s also gorgeous, black and yellow really stand out.

Um, And that yeah, that, that comes out in, um, Q1 end of Q1 Q2 next year.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh, that is fantastic. Well, congratulations. That is really, really cool. Now, um, prior to starting the interview, you were telling me that, uh, there was a, a sort of a new, uh, another new thing because you’re always growing, always learning new things, another new sort of, um, collaborative project that, that you’re, uh, you’re starting to focus on and maybe towards the end of the year,

Mark Dawson: Yeah.

So we’ve got a kit, a kids book. I need kids series called the afterschool detective club, um, which, um, is something that I wanted to do for awhile. Um, and it’s, it gives me the chance to show my daughter is very interested in, in reading and writing. And she likes the fact that I’m a writer. She wants to be a writer when she grows up.

And obviously that will change when I’m, I’m not cool anymore. She weren’t born anything to do with anything I’ve ever done. So

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: it’s still cool.

Mark Dawson: Well, I’m still cool at the moment. Yeah. That won’t last much longer, I think. Um, but I, to

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: tell you about that,

Mark Dawson: um, yeah, you’re going to give it a try to do something together.

Um, and so I had an idea, um, I, um, put out a call in the extra community for people to want to work with me on something. And a guy called Alan burrows who is a really good, um, kids writer. Um, Was keen to have a go. So we, you know, I had an idea, um, for kind of a general idea. He came back with a plot and then he he’s written the book, um, will then get changed a little bit in the edit.

So I’ll, I’ll start to be more involved in the edit. Um, and then we’re thinking about launching it, um, probably at Christmas time, um, at least in ebook and on print, on demand in time for Christmas, um, to try and build up some momentum. And then with the benefit of those sales behind us as a kind of a proof of concept, then I will look next year at getting physical copies into stores.

And there’s a, I love to do all entirely myself. Um, so that’s an option. Well, Beck might be interested for, they are interested. So that, that would be another potential way we could get into stores or there’s a kind of a halfway house. There are some businesses where there’s one person in particular who, um, would act as like an independent sales agent and would then go to the stores, sell the book in and, and we would be in charge of, you know, offset, print, run, and, and pricing.

And. Cover design and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, w we’ll see, it’s, um, it’s interesting opportunity, I think. And also it’s a good chance to, you know, there aren’t that right? One of the questions I get quite a lot is does advertising work for kids books? And do, can you make, uh, make any kind of decent living from writing for kids and publishing digitally?

And I know that you can, because we’ve had people on the podcast who’ve done really well. Um, and so I’m going to try and I’ll give it a shot. Maybe I can, maybe I can’t play it will be fun to give it a go.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: I love, I love that you do this because it’s PA it’s a passion project. It’s something like, like the stories that you enjoyed when you were 16 years old and just wanted to give that joy to other people.

It’s the same thing for, for your daughter and for other readers. And then you’re going to also help other writers understanding more about the business. I love that multi-dimensional. Uh, aspect to it.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. Because I’m, I’ll be, I’ll be able to about whether it, you know, cause one of the things about having a podcast is that, you know, and we took everything that we’re doing on it.

And so people know this is happening. Um, I’ll post about it in the Facebook group and it might, if it works, I’ll say what I think has worked. If it doesn’t work, I’ll say I’ll be honest. I didn’t work. And this is what I think I did wrong. Um, so, and hopefully people. Can see the mistakes I’ve made and maybe then avoid those ones and make some ones from themselves.

You know, that’s the, that’s the plan.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: That’s fantastic. Uh, so again, uh, there’s about two months left in 2020. What, what are some of the things that you’re looking forward to in the next couple of months?

Mark Dawson: Well, so, I mean, there’s loads going on. I mean, I’m, I’ve got the new Milton books called Ronin. That’ll definitely be out this year.

Um, probably November. Um, I’ve then got to write a second book in my Atticus free series. So I’ve got a pretty good idea about that. So I want to get onto that. Um, I’ve got. I had a German translation out last week and I’ve got another two to come this year. And then I think another six into next year. I mean, those are going amazingly well.

Germany is despairing. Great. I’ve got German, um, uh, audio books starting to be recorded. This year, um, and I’ve got what else? Um, I’ve got a new deal with my audiobooks now with WF houses and tool. Um, so, um, we’ve got a standalone coming up with them. I’ve got a book with, um, audible studios that I, I there’s just tons, tons, and tons of this stuff.

Um, you know, going on and it’s fun, you know, try sometimes it can be a little bit precious sometimes, but most of the time it’s, it’s just fun. This is kind of always what I wanted to do. To do so. Um, I like to keep as busy as I can. First on the SPF side, we’ve got some, um, One, Oh, one closes as we record this tomorrow.

Um, but we’ve got a call, a new course on editing, which is excellent. Um, we’ve got, um, what else have we got? We’ve got some short courses of very, very competitively priced, sub $20 courses. One of the velum, one on word count productivity. We’ve got Gwen Hernandez who he wrote Scrivener for dummies is doing a Scrivener course for us.

Um, and so those, those will be coming out over the next. Three or four months. Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s busy. Oh, hello books. I didn’t mention that as well. So we have a new, uh, Oh, that’s right. They’re another company we just thought, yeah, we’ve got time. Let’s say a new company. We’ve got something else coming out towards the end of the year as well.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So I have to, I have to comment. So, you know, when you think about like dog years, uh, in terms of how much time can be, and I was going to say in the, in the publishing realm, we’ll call these Dawson years so that in one year, Do most people do in four or probably 14. So

Mark Dawson: just, uh, just having good people and I couldn’t possibly do half the stuff that I didn’t have a good team around me.

So it’s, um, you know, kudos to them. Really awesome.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Awesome. Mark, where can people find out more about Mark Dawson, more about self publishing formula, all this stuff you got you’re into.

Mark Dawson: All right. So, uh, the books, um, is it Mark J dawson.com and, uh, anything on kind of the teaching side of things, courses and the podcasts.

You can find that at self publishing formula. Awesome.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Mark, thanks again for hanging out with me.

Mark Dawson: My pleasure.

Episode 159 – Many Roads of Creativity with Sarah Beth Goer

Mark interviews Actor, producer, audiobook narrator, and singer Sarah Beth Goer.

Prior to the interview Mark shares comments from recent episodes, a personal update, and a few words about this episode’s sponsor…

You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

During their conversation, Mark and Sarah talk about:

The fact that this is Sarah’s first appearance as a podcast guestWorking with Erin Wright on releasing her romance novels in audiobookHow and when Sarah got started in audiobook narrationThe reality of trying to be an actor in LA – including the difficulty of even getting an auditionSarah’s determination to get at least 200 rejections before giving up on this pursuitThe importance of understanding your goal of having your books in audioOther suggestions to authors on strategies for determining whether or not its worth investing on audiobooksWhat Sarah wants every author to know about licensing their audio rights to a publisherThe original of where Sarah got the “bug” for actingDetermining that she really had to do acting for her soulComing to terms with the doors that are open for you and the doors that are closed for you, and walking through the doors that are open instead of banging your head on the doors that are closedHow audiobooks are an actor’s medium – where an actor can’t be limited or typecast by how they look, for exampleThe comparison of a one-hander, a play performed by a single actor with being a single narrator of an audiobookWhy Sarah highly recommends the audiobook for Charlotte’s WebThe converted and sound-proofed/sound-dampened closet that Sarah records in within her homeHow Mark met Sarah while looking for narrators for the audiobook for his Obsessions anthologyThe way Sarah gets new clients
– Different genres that Sarah likes to work on as an audiobook narrator and what she looks for in a collaborative writing partnerThe deeply satisfying experience of creating the feature film THREE ROADSThe resonance of a specific scene in the film that was created in an ad hoc fashion of collaboration between the actors ad libbing with suggestions from the directorSarah’s penchant for ad lib film creation, but why they didn’t use that for THREE ROADS (other than a few short scenes)Behind the scenes of the “little details” put into a feature film, such as the “scene within a scene” of a fictional movie two of the characters are watchingThe mind-boggling realization that every single thing seen on a television show or movie was painstakingly created, designed, or placed by someone responsible for thatThe challenging reality of the fact that the cost to just distribute this film and would most likely far outweigh the funds that would be earned off of itThe cross-training of working on multiple collaborative and creative projectsAnd more

After the interview Mark shares a reflection about Sarah’s conviction to stick it out until she tried 200 times, as well as the need for disruption in the film industry.

Mark also welcomes new Patron, Kevin Partner.

Links of Interest:

Sarah Beth Goer’s WebsiteSarah on TwitterWonder Woman ProductionsPink Flamingo ProductionsLyric AudiobooksEpisode 157 – A Conversation with Jeff Elkins, The Dialogue DoctorMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections



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Sarah Beth Goer is a member of acting unions SAG-AFTRA and AEA. Her feature film THREE ROADS, which she co-wrote, starred in, and produced, won BEST WRITERS at the LA Femme International Film Festival in 2019.

Sarah is also an audiobook narrator with over 100 titles under her belt. Notable works include Harper title The Unteachables (named in January 2019 an Apple Books Must-Listen), Disney Hyperion title The Devouring Gray (which placed on Barnes & Nobel’s 20 most anticipated YA debuts of 2019), and Night Music – which Audiofile Magazine called “an exquisite listen,” deeming Goer’s performance “dynamic,” and “noteworthy” as she “successfully capture[d] the raw emotions of first love muddled by racism and greed.”

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 158 – Kate Tilton on Helping Authors Succeed

In this episode Mark interviews Kate Tilton about the work she does supporting and helping authors be successful.

Prior to the interview, Mark shares shares comments from recent episodes and social media, offers a personal update, and says a word about this episode’s sponsor…

You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

[image error]Mark and Kate in NYC at Book Expo America – 2013

During their conversation, Mark and Kate talk about:

Meeting for the first time at the basement in the Javitz Center in New York at Book Expo AmericaHow Kate got into the book businessThe way that interacting in social media led to Kate falling into the role of author assistantKate starting in the book business when she was still in high school and always being an “old soul” her entire lifeThe fact that Kate has always been a “How” person who likes to figure out processes and how to make things workThe challenges of “re-identifying yourself” within an industryHow Kate helps authors make decisions within publishing based on what’s best for the author and what’s best for each bookThe important role Kate plays in terms of keeping her author clients accountableThe value of focusing on humans and relationships and connection for a broader perspective of marketingThe mistake that most authors make in thinking of social media as a marketing or sales platformThe way that Kate’s own use of social media has changed over the yearsQuestioning certain “givens” of business such as “you have to keep increasing the incoming revenue”The importance of having someone as a “thought-partner” in the business of writing and publishingHow two different people collaborating can come up with ideas and processes that are far better than they ever would on their ownAdvice that Kate would give to her younger self

After the interview, Mark reflects on accountability and the human connection element of social media, particularly as it relates to how he and Kate have stayed connected over the years.

Links of Interest:

Kate Tilton’s WebsiteKate Tilton on Social Media:TwitterInstagramFacebookEpisode 157 – A Conversation with Jeff Elkins, The Dialogue DoctorMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections



[image error]

Kate Tilton works with authors of all publication paths, from New York Times and USA Today bestsellers, award winners, and six-figure authors, to pre-publication authors, to authors somewhere in the middle. By standing beside authors as a partner, Kate turns scary and overwhelming things like marketing and finding an audience into tools that can be used to make an author’s dream a reality. She achieves this mission with one-on-one partnerships with authors, free resources available on her website, and so much more.

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Below is an automated transcription of the interview segment of this episode.

(The transcription has not been human-verified)

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Hey, Kate, thanks for hanging out with me today.

Kate Tilton: Thanks for having me.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: It has been a long time. When was the last time we saw each other in person?

Kate Tilton: Yeah. Um, NINC. So what was that November? That long.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah, but it feels like three years ago. Right? So September last year. Yeah.

Kate Tilton: Yeah. Yep.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah. And prior to that, it was probably I’m guessing we probably saw each other at, uh, RWA, BEA things like that over the years.

Kate Tilton: Definitely BEA, I haven’t been to RWA. I’ve heard really good things, but yeah, I think we first met at the VA many, many moons.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah. We met, I’m pretty sure we met in the basement of the Javits center in New York. Um, I was at my little mini Kobo Writing Life booth.

Kate Tilton: And someone came up asking about, should they go directly to Kobo or not?

I’m just like, of course it’s so easy. And you’re just like, well, It depends. So yeah, that I remember that.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah. Always, always, always that wishy washy answers, like, well, every author has their own reasons why they want to go direct or use an anchor.

Kate Tilton: And now I do the same thing. So I guess I learned,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: yeah. So I know things have changed for you over the years since we, we w Oh my God.

Was that 2013 or 14 that we first met?

Kate Tilton: Probably. Yeah.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: And I know things have changed for you, but I want to, before we get into how things changed, I want to, I want to ask, uh, so you can share with people, how did you get into the business of writing and publishing?

Kate Tilton: Yeah, so I I’ve always been a reader, uh, ever since I was a kid books were huge for me.

Um, and. You know, Twitter was a thing. So I think I started a Twitter account back then 2009 didn’t know what I was doing. It was just like, well, I have a smartphone now I can do it. So, okay. I’ll I’ll join. Um, but I, I connected with some authors, um, one being Heather Brewer who actually discovered through an artist that I followed.

Who’s now a writer. So it was kind of funny to hear like the whole story of, um, actually don’t even get into this usually. But, uh, as a kid, I was really into art. So as part of this art website, so that’s how I met Marie Lou, who at the time was working as an artist in video games. And she was writing how to publish yet, but she did the trailer for eighth grade bites, which is the first book and how their series and I loved it.

And that’s how I found Heather and loved the book, uh, was following her on Twitter. And she happened to post one day that she was looking for an assistant. And I was a teenager, you know, 17. So it was like, well, could it be a virtual assistant? And she hired me for the job, which is I think the biggest surprise of the story.

And so I really fell into it and have been working with authors ever since.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So I want to go back to that because when I met you at Bea, uh, you, I mean, first impressions are a huge thing. And my impression of you was this. It really knowledgeable industry insider. And you, were you still in high school at the time when I met you?

Kate Tilton: No. Cause I started, it was my senior year of high school when I started, so I think we met Joe in 13. I was in college

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: college. No, but again, you would think, I think it’s valuable. I think for writers to think about is, is the way that you came across is you were very professional. You were very personable.

And my impression of you was, you know, high end professional person that you want to trust you want to work with. Right? Like that, that, that was, I should say. I want to say easy to trust, want to work with, um, to get stuff done. And I think it was the way that you carried yourself. I’m not sure. Where did, where did you pick up on, on, on those skills?

So early

Kate Tilton: on. I think it’s also personality. Um, I always been, people think I’m older, so I just turned 27 a couple of days ago. And some people were like, what? You’re 27. So I’m like, yeah, yeah. I’m been an old soul all my life. I remember being in like junior high and someone thinking I was in college and I’m like, I just am this way.

Um, You know, even my own mother will be like, Oh, you’re such a mother telling me to buckle up and put on sunblock. And I’m like, I just, it is what I am. It just is. But I always look at, you know, a business is one I’m passionate about it. Books have helped me through. You know, really hard times in life and a lot of loneliness.

Um, so I always want to do the best that I can to help authors write more books that that’s really the end of the day. It’s like, I want them to feel empowered, to be able to put more work out there. Cause I want to read it.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Awesome. You know, if we make the world a better place. So, so thank you for that, because that was, it was, it was incredible when, when you know, I’m only now realizing.

Yeah. Wow. She was still in college. This was, this was her first, probably professional, uh, job. Uh, and, and so you were a writer’s assistant at the time. What was it that appealed to you apart from being able to help writers so that they could have more time to work on their books?

Kate Tilton: And for me, it was something that I really like fell into.

Um, what I always liked is I like being able to help people. And for me, it’s like always been about doing the things that, you know, maybe someone’s not as good at so that they can and do what they’re really good at. So for a writer, right? Like you’re the one who’s gonna write that book. No one else is going to do that for you.

Well, there’s tons of other things that go into it behind the scenes. So you’ve got administration where you have your marketing, where you have just overall strategic planning. And for me, it’s always been to have a partnership with the author. So I don’t know if you ever heard of like a Simon Sineck start with Y yep.

Okay. So, you know, I’m really a how person, I like figuring out how to make things work. So an author comes to me and they’re like, I have this idea. And then I figured out like, okay, here are the steps we’re going to take to make that work. Or, you know, I have this thing I want to do with my mailing service.

Like. How, how did that, how do I make that work? And I’m like, I do that. So you don’t have to think about it, you know? And that’s, I enjoy that, that, that brings me a lot, um, a lot of joy.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Cool. And then, uh, I know, uh, prior to the official interview, we were just touching base about the, um, the, the change and the evolution.

Of moving from, you know, virtual assistant with a writer to taking on more of a mentorship, uh, coach, uh, support, um, consultants. Although we, we think that’s kind of a dirty word sometimes or just right, but. We were talking about the challenges of re identifying you. I mean, my challenge was nobody could pronounce LaFave.

So I said, Oh, just my last name is pronounced from Kobo. And so, you know, forever known in, into a lot of people in the industry is Mark from Coldwell. But then when I left Kobo, Oh no, what happens? You know, Mark the artist formerly known as from Cabo or, or, you know, Mark to digital. Right. So there’s always that sort of perception.

So you had to undergo that. Transformation. And how long did it take, and I’m just curious about some of the struggles that you encountered.

Kate Tilton: Yeah. I would feel like I’m still going through it, you know, and it’s been a couple of years and a lot of it was thinking about like, what comes next? Uh, you know, when I started, I was in high school, so I didn’t have to make a ton of money to do my job.

Right. There was no bills to pay. Um, but as you get older, right, like now I have a house, I have a mortgage to pay. Um, So it’s not that I want to start charging authors tons more money. It’s really just like, I want to make sure I’m working enough that I’m meeting, um, my bills and I didn’t want to get another job.

You know, like this is my job working with authors. This is my day job. Um, Because that way I can devote myself to studying and learning and being able to help. So for the last couple of years has been trying to figure out like, what’s that transition? You can only go so far as just an assistant. People will only pay you so much to just do what they consider administration work.

So it’s okay. Um, You know, how can I still be helpful and make sure that I’m making the income that I need to, that I could still do this. So it’s been a couple of years. So just a lot of thinking about it and trying to figure out like what’s gonna work for me. Um, you know, anytime you get into business, they’re always will say, well, you need to stop doing hourly services.

You need to start offering products or you need to like charge, charge more or hire people. Right. And for me, I’m like, well, hiring people, then your job becomes to manage them and help them do the work. So you’re not doing the work anymore. You are helping enabled them to do the work. That’s a whole different position.

Uh, I won’t say that I’ll never do that, but it’s not where my heart is right now. Um, the other thing was like offering a product. I don’t love writing. I don’t love it. I don’t have that spark. I can do it. I’m not awful at it, but I don’t love it. Um, so I’m like, I don’t really want to go and like, try to write books that will help authors.

You know, that’s not going to be fun for me. It’s not going to be fulfilling for me. Um, I thought about, okay, look doing a course, but what always kind of hit me with that was that it’s. So everyone’s journey is so different. So if I offer a course like that might work for, you know, 50% of people, but then for others, it’s not going to be what they need.

So that’s kind of where I land good on that one on one consultation work, I’d already been doing it. Um, you know, while I was doing my system stuff for their clients and. I really, I love having those conversations with authors. I find there’s like three main types of authors that come to me and they’re all, you know, different situations.

So you have the new author who comes into publishing, you know, in recent years and is just overwhelmed. There’s so much information out there. There’s so many options out there. They don’t know what offset printing is versus print on demand and what’s Ingram and what’s create space, create spaces and exist anymore.

They don’t know that because he went

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: about it. Cause it’s all over the internet.

Kate Tilton: Yeah. So it’s a lot of like, okay, like let’s take a breath and let’s figure out what’s gonna make sense for you. Like, do you want indie published? You want to get a traditional publisher? Um, you know, I mostly work with indie authors.

I have a thing against traditional publishing for some people that’s going to be what’s best for them. For some books, it’s going to be what’s best for it. So I really want to like, let’s first talk about that, make sure you’re on the right path for you. Um, so those conversations are always really fulfilling.

Um, I had one of the other day and she was like, Oh wow. You’re so encouraging. Like, I feel so much better. Like I can actually do this and not just like, have to pay people to do it for me. And I’m like, like, yeah, you’re like, you can get this. We all start somewhere. Um, so like, you know, being able to cut through kind of the noise and get them feeling confident again.

And then I have other authors who will come to me who are just stuck there. People that have been pushing for a really long time and they just. I had that kinda like fear of missing out or kind of overwhelm of just like, well, you know, this experts, so they should be doing Facebook ads and this one, so this should be doing BookBub ads and this one, so they should be doing this.

And I hate all that. So like, what do I do? So it’s like, all right, like let’s, let’s talk it through, what are you actually going to do too? Because I think, you know, it’s, there are like courses you can buy that will tell you, like, we’ll do this thing, but if that doesn’t fit your personality and what you really want.

You’re not going to do it. So it doesn’t really help you. So let’s find out like what you’re really going to do. That’s going to get you where you want to go. You know how, uh, and then I have, um, you know, like authors who want someone to keep them accountable. So they they’ve been doing this a while by themselves or they’re, or they’re new at it, but they know that they have someone checking in with them.

They’re going to do what they said. They’re going to do. So I’m just that person who’s like, Hey, you know, you said you were going to write this section, like, what’d you do, you were going to do this marketing thing, did you do it? And it’s a lot of brainstorming. So I really enjoy working with, with these kind of collective authors.

Yeah,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: that, that, that can actually be really, really fun. But I’m curious when, when you’re doing the transition, so you had clients where you were their virtual assistant and then you were moving. Was it a, Hey, I need to let you know that I’m transitioning. Did you have to grandfather people in, because you know, you have such a good relationship and, and it’s, it’s relatively easy.

Cause, cause you know each other so well, like how, how did, how did that whole thing work out?

Kate Tilton: Well, this is why I feel like it’s still a transition because I’m not going to, you know, any of my clients, who’ve been my clients. I’m not ditching them. I’m not saying

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: so you’re actually sticking with them. It’s not like, Hey, I’m not in this business anymore.

I’ll try and find you someone else.

Kate Tilton: No, yeah, I’m, I’m still in it with them. And I enjoy that because it also keeps me involved in the process. So I’m actually doing the work as the exchange and still figuring things out. Right to

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: add new options and things like that. I’m familiar with them.

Kate Tilton: So I’m still uploading books for clients and still working on strategy there.

And it’s, I like the balance, but for me, it’s knowing that, you know, one, even clients that have had for many, many years, right? Like I’m also a lot younger. So I look at this as like in the future, right. They’re going to retire before I retire. Oh yeah. Yeah. So it’s kind of that. Yeah. Knowing, like I’m not going to completely change and try to suddenly get all these consultations where that’s completely my income and I don’t have to work with authors in this basis, but it’s knowing that, you know, when I do podcasts and when I write new things, like I have to then be pitching myself as like, this is what I’m offering now.

I’m not offering new people. What I used to do. I’m shifting focus and that’s been hard. It’s been hard.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Well, you also have to contend with people like me who may be sending you referrals without realizing that you’re not taking new clients in that area that you’re

Kate Tilton: doing. Yeah. So it’s a lot of people will find you that way or they’ll be like, Oh, I think you just do marketing for authors and sell their books.

And I’m like, no, that’s really never. Then what I do, I help authors figure out what they want to do to sell their books.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: You know what people want to call it marketing. I know a Reedsy insisted, for example, when they wanted to be listed there, they said, you, we need to list you as a marketer. And I’m like, no, no, I don’t do marketing.

That’s that’s that’s dirty. That’s I don’t do marketing marketing. No, no, I don’t.

Kate Tilton: That’s also hard about it is, you know, because. It can be marketing, right? Marketing can be about focusing on connections with people, right. It doesn’t have to be this dirty word. It doesn’t have to be uncovered, you know, it can’t, and that’s always been my thing, right.

It’s like, let’s make marketing something that you enjoy doing because that’s when you’re going to have success. And that’s, what’s also going to. Stay with you over time. Um, and it’s not to say things like doing Facebook ads or whatever are necessarily bad or evil. They just change very consistently.

Right. Right. And some people enjoy that. Like that’s a challenge to them. They enjoy the technical side of things. Awesome. But there are a lot of authors that don’t, they don’t enjoy that at all. So I’m like, if you focus on humans and connection, part of it, like that’s also why you’re writing books, right.

Is that someone can read them. So you have that connection with a person, right. It can be fun. It really can. Um, but there’s also that message inception of like, Oh, well you just sell books. And it’s like, that’s no, really what I do. If you’re not involved in the process, like there’s not a lot I’m going to do, that’s going to change that for you.

So,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: so let’s talk a little bit about social media, because I know, um, you, you know, social media, you assist authors with social media and, and I know that your approach is treating it like relationships, not like a marketing platform. Is that that’s, is that about

Kate Tilton: right? Yeah, I guess it’s treating it like it’s not a sales platform.

Cause I think that’s the, one of the big misconceptions I see authors have as they’re like, well, I signed up for Twitter and I tweeted all this stuff about my book and no one bought it. And I’m like, yeah,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: sorry, I don’t mean to laugh, but, but yeah, you hear that every day, right?

Kate Tilton: Yeah. It’s it’s social media.

And I think people forget the fact that the social aspect of it. Uh, and it’s also changed a lot. I was just talking to someone before this, about how you know, right now it is a lot more triggering. Right. You go on and people are really, there’s just a lot of anger and it’s a different world than it was.

But for me, social media has always been just a way to connect with other people who had similar interests. I was living in an area where there was not a lot of people who cared about books. You know, it’s not like I could go out to an author event. We didn’t have a bookstore. Yeah. So social media, the internet was a way for me to connect with people who had similar ideas, who enjoyed similar things.

And that’s always been the point. Social media is a vehicle. If it’s not working for you, if like Facebook is the devil to you, like, okay, don’t use it, use something else. The point is figuring out how you’re connecting with people. So some people that’s email, they meet people in person, they have their email address.

They nurture those relationships. They don’t use social media. That’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with it. There’s nothing wrong with using it. Well, either you gotta figure out what works for

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: you. So I have to ask. So, um, how do you, uh, you know, the brand of Kate Tilton, how do you use social media and how does it work for you?

Kate Tilton: It’s changed. It’s changed over time. So I used to be super active on social media and I’m definitely not as active on social media. Um, and a part of that was because of how it’s changed over time. Um, I used to run a Twitter chat, which I really, really loved. Um, you know, I was able to connect with authors and it was really about to me about education, right?

Like let’s learn about something together. Um, so now a lot of how I connect with my authors is through things like this, doing podcasts, or sometimes writing guest articles, even if I don’t love the writing process. Um, and I’m still figuring out exactly how I want to approach, especially with this kind of transition.

Um, you know, I think for me, probably email is going to be a lot more, more important, right. Um, I also really like Instagram and I went through a phase of trying to just post like really cool book pictures. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work and it’s also then connects me with readers, not necessarily often.

So it’s that kind of like, okay, maybe I’ll switch it up. I haven’t quite decided yet. So, yeah, you kind of see me feel like go through my social media and be like, Oh, like I’m still there. Um, and I still always like to check and I always try to be positive when I’m on social media. You know, if someone posts something, you know, posting a selfie or posting a picture of their book, like be that person saying, congratulations, because it’s hard, it’s hard to put yourself out there,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: not point of the one thing on the cover that bothers you or

Kate Tilton: whatever.

And, you know, it’s. I just find sometimes like people are reaching out on social media, they’re putting themselves out there. It’s like reaching into a void. And I’m like, if I can spend 10 seconds to just say, like, I see you, you have value. Why would I not do that? You know? Um, so that’s kinda my approach now to social media is I, I get on, I check, I try to leave some nice comments for people.

Awesome.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Awesome. Um, how do. People find you like, is it referrals mostly, uh, how does, how does that work for you as you’re, as you’re evolving?

Kate Tilton: Yeah, I think a lot of it is referrals and also from podcast interviews. So, you know, we just did the draft digital interview back in March. And then I got released as a podcast.

I’m writing articles for different sites. I still have guest posts that I did from years ago when people will find me that way. Yeah, it’s not uncommon for me. If I have someone coming in for a call, there’ll be like, well, I was just looking up, you know, like help for office and your name kept coming up everywhere.

And like, yep. Yep. Cause I, I try to write and share about this wherever I can. Um, cause a lot of it was when I came into the industry, it wasn’t that there wasn’t other assistance. It was really that they just didn’t talk a lot about it in public spaces or with authors. Right. Um, you know, I couldn’t find a lot of articles about working with an assistant.

So, and even now I still have authors who think they have to do it all by themselves and I’m like, that’s not how. Anything really works. Like we’re not designed as human beings to be alone, uh, you know, companies and everything. Like they don’t do it all alone. Um, so trying to, and that’s, I think part of my reinvention, it has been like, let’s talk about how to work with people.

Uh, I like reading a lot about business books, so now trying to. Take the information and apply it to the author industry. Um, or I guess the publishing industry. And it’s, it’s an interesting transition because for some people that’s kind of like revolutionary of like, Oh, I don’t have to do it alone. Like I can hire someone to help me me with this.

Um, And it makes sense. I mean, cause I have the same thing where, you know, you get so close to things that sometimes you’re stuck thinking the column sometimes limiting beliefs. Okay. So, you know, for me, one of mine had been, I have to grow my business. Like you have to grow the revenue every year. And I thought like, you know, I was, I just believed that.

And then someone pointed out like, you know, do you have to. Maybe your goal for the year could be to refine something you’re already doing and make it better. Right? Like I have been having this conversation with clients, telling them the same thing that you just told me. And I couldn’t see it because I was too close to it until you just said that five seconds, like listening to me ramble, and then was like, you know, maybe that’s a limiting belief for you, Kate.

And I’m like, you’re right. You’re right. Um, So I, I like that part of it is, you know, as authors, you know, there is the practical services, you can hire your editors, your cover designers, your formatting, but there’s also that if you’re looking at this as a business and you want to be able to grow, sometimes you need someone to be your thought partner, someone that’s going to be able to point those things out to you that you’re just too close to see and what they say, you’re going to be like, Oh, obviously, or they’ll say something and that will, you know, spin a whole bunch of ideas for you.

That, that one, you know, thought brought. So I enjoy that collaborative relationship and I hope to share that with more authors.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: And I think that’s one thing that hasn’t changed. Right? It’s as you’ve always valued that collaborative relationship and just, uh, you know, pivoted into a different

Kate Tilton: yeah. And a lot of it comes from the perception.

So to me, an assistant, I mean, to me, labels don’t really matter all that much. It’s really about the person and what they’re going to do versus what they’re going to say. Um, But the perception of assistant can be very varied. A lot of people tend to think that, well, it’s just, it’s just someone that does what you tell them to do.

Right. And sometimes that is exactly what the relationship is, but that’s never been what it is for me and a part that’s because of my strengths of like, I like. Taking something and making it better. So I like relationships where an author might have like, well, this is how I do it, but they’re willing to have me say, well, what if we changed this?

And often through that conversation, we’ll work together and find a way that neither of us thought of, but together. Well, you know, we uncovered this new way of doing something that’s even better. And I love that. That’s always super satisfying.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Yeah. It’s greater than the sum of its parts. That sort of thing, where you’ve come up with something that would not have been possible without like, you know, peanut butter and chocolate are great on their own, but they come up with this magical taste together.

So how have things changed or that you’ve recognized either in the industry and the author community in publishing since. Uh, you know, the, the, the life all three in world changing event so early.

Kate Tilton: Yeah. It’s interesting. Cause I think a lot of people, um, assume that it means a lot of people are writing and I’m going to be super, super busy.

And currently I’m not, I’m not that I’m not busy at all, but there hasn’t been like this massive increase. Right. But I always say like, you know, publishing is slow in a lot of aspects, so. You know, I have conversations with people at other businesses, you know, other business owners and for them, it was very immediate.

COVID hit the shutdown happened. They’re closing their businesses for two weeks, figuring out how we’re going to pay our people. How are we going to stay afloat? Right. That’s not what happened for me or for my authors. Right. People are still buying eBooks, still buying books, still reading, but you know, things shift.

So, you know, you have a delay and say getting your audio book out there on the market. Um, or any kind of production delay. So you were counting on that launch to help you with your income for the year. And it’s like, well, now we have to delay it. Um, you know, our editor is got sick and can’t do it. So that’s where it’s been a lot more, um, of an effect.

I think, uh, the, the authors have had a lot easier time. Not say clearly easy but easier than traditional authors, uh, because for them, right, you have actual warehouses and in those delays, eBooks didn’t quite have that same hindrance. Um, so I think I’m very blessed in that way. Most of my authors are indie authors are hybrid.

Uh, so, but it’s, it’s definitely interesting to see that shift. So, or other companies, other industries, you know, they’re getting back to more of their status quo, normal, you know, I’m having some where it’s like, I’ve had certain authors that had to leave because of finance issues that were weighed late, but it was because of what this happened.

It took a lot longer for it to catch up. So. It’s it’s interesting.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Definitely interesting. Now what’s, what’s one thing that you would want to go back to tell Kate who was still in high school and was on Twitter and saw this opportunity. What what’s some sort of advice you would go back and maybe tweet at her.

Kate Tilton: That’s pretty that Kate passed Kate, probably to make sure that she still had a life outside of her job. Uh, that’s definitely, um, I think the, the hardest thing that I had to learn, um, was that my identity is not just my job, uh, and part, because my personality, like, I tend to go really hard, whatever I’m doing for work.

Right. Um, it comes more naturally to me than anything else. Uh, but it means that I have to pay more attention to the other things. Right. So,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Because you have long, you have long been self employed basically from the beginning.

Kate Tilton: My life. Yeah.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: So you never had to go nine to five in an office. You worked remotely, you traveled, you know, I met you at BookExpo America and Nanc and places where you went to interact and engage with people.

So chances are by default, you didn’t just check out 35 hours. I’m done. Right. You probably, Oh, wow. I worked 80 hours this week and I’m still not done because maybe, maybe because you enjoy it, but also because there isn’t that divisiveness, like I’m going to get on the train and going to the city or anything like that, right?

Kate Tilton: Yeah. It’s figuring out how to put boundaries is definitely a struggle. And especially when I was in school, um, I remember like, especially in college, I was doing. Um, part of college virtually. So I had times where I literally had a sheet of paper with minute by minute, what I had to get done that day. So like, you’re going to wake up at this time, you’re going to eat, you have 10 minutes and then you’re going to go in and you have to do this reading, and then you have to do this work for a client.

And if something took longer like an assignment, you know, I thought I’d only need an hour. And really it took three hours. Like you’re going to take that out of your sleep. You know, so it was a transition. I’m very glad to be done with school. Um, and trying to find a more healthy balance because, you know, just because I can work long hours doesn’t mean that that’s going to be good long term.

Um, and that’s, yeah, that’s also a transition and it’s something that I see authors also struggle with when they have day jobs. Um, part of why I like doing the one on one work versus just like a here’s a course and go and do this method. People are different places. You know, I have some that are retired.

Their workflow is a lot different than someone who has kids at home, um, or someone that has a day job and the writing is their side hustle, you know, so we get to take that into account. And, uh, that’s personally why I enjoy doing the one-on-one versus just general teaching.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Oh, excellent. Excellent. So for people who are looking for that support, uh, wherever they are in their author journey, how can people find out more about you online?

Go

Kate Tilton: to my website, Kate tilton.com. That is where you get, find all the information about my services. Um, how to contact me also, you can check me out social media. So it’s K the number eight Tilton and that’s same everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and I do respond when people message me or contact me on social media.

So don’t hesitate to reach out.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: Excellent. Okay. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today.

Kate Tilton: It’s a pleasure.

Episode 156 – The Stark Reality Facing Authors

In this solo episode, Mark shares the content that is normally reserved for patrons of the Stark Reflections Podcast in a “Stark Reflections on Other Podcasts” episode.

In this episode, he shares clips from two other podcasts that he listens to, then reflects upon the things discussed.

In this particular case, both episodes include the stark reality facing authors.

Prior to the main content, Mark shares a personal update as well as a word from this episode’s sponsor…

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You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

In the main segment for the episode Mark reflects upon clips from:

Sell More Books Show Episode 330The Career Author Podcast Episode 144

Links of Interest:

Sell More Books Show Episode 330 – Clear Strategy, Full Data Sets, Can’t LoseThe Career Author Podcast Episode 144 – Technology & PublishingMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Episode 155 – Rebel Reflections with Guest Host Sacha Black

Rebel Author Takeover Special Episode!

In this episode Sacha Black, host of The Rebel Author Podcast, takes over the Stark Reflections Podcast, renaming it the Rebel Reflections Podcast as part of celebrating the 1st anniversary of her podcast (Sept 25, 2020).

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY SACHA!!!!

Prior to the takeover, Sacha temporarily hands control back over to Mark, who reads comments from recent episodes, shares a personal update, and also a work from this episode’s two sponsors….

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You can learn more about how you can get your work distributed to retailers and library systems around the world at starkreflections.ca/Findaway.

A motivational show for all the creatives out there with an inner rebel. Listen for interviews, industry news, tips, tricks and tools to help you take your creative business to the next level. Learn more about the Rebel Author Podcast.

In this episode Sacha poses the questions on the following topics which both Mark and Sacha answer:

Favorite rebel in historyFavorite literary rebelWhat have you learned since you started podcasting?What have you learned about yourself since starting podcasting?What’s your favorite thing about podcasting? Why do you think Rebellion is important?What kind of rebel are you?A DAD JOKE…

Links of Interest:

The Rebel Author PodcastEpisode 133 – Anatomy of a Rebel with Sacha BlackEpisode 154 – Memories of and Reflections on T S PaulEpisode 144 – 10 Tips for Winning with Wide PublishingMark’s Canadian Werewolf SeriesThis Time Around (Book 0)A Canadian Werewolf in New York (Book 1)Stowe Away (Book 1.5)Fear and Longing in Los Angeles (Book 2)Findaway VoicesBooks2ReadDraft2DigitalWide for the Win Submission FormPatreon for Stark Reflections

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Sacha Black is an author, rebel podcaster, speaker and developmental editor.

She has five obsessions; words, expensive shoes, conspiracy theories, self-improvement, and breaking the rules.

Sacha writes books about people with magical powers and other books about the art of writing.

When she’s not writing, she can be found laughing inappropriately loud, sniffing musty old books, fangirling film and TV soundtracks, or thinking up new ways to break the rules.

She lives in Hertfordshire, England, with her wife and genius, giant of a son.

The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

Below is an automated transcription of the interview segment of this episode.

(The transcription has not been human-verified)

(Time stamps in [] are not indicative of the time in the overall episode, but in the interview portion of the episode)

Sacha Black: [00:00:00] So hello, rebel reflectives. My name is Sasha Black and I am taking over Mark’s awesome podcast because I reached a one year anniversary in my own podcasting journey. And Mark is the King of reflections and. That’s a time to reflect on, um, your, your podcasts in your journey than at a one year anniversary.

So I’ve got some questions that I’m going to throw at Mark today, and hopefully he’ll let me answer them too. Wait, wait. No, he will because I demand to answer the questions too. So shall we kick off?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:00:37] Well, I thought I thought I was going to ask the questions back to you. Cause that’s just part of being a rebel.

Right. Cause I’m learning from you as well, right?

Sacha Black: [00:00:43] Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. But what we’ll do, we’ll do it to him free. Okay. So very first question. Who is your favorite rebel in history?  

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:00:55] Now, this is probably related to the fact that I just finished listening to white fragility. And I’ve been thinking a lot about black lives matter movement

Sacha Black: [00:01:04] and

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:01:05] about Rosa Parks.

No, no. Did you get this

Sacha Black: [00:01:09] really?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:01:11] When I think about Rosa Parks, she doesn’t just represent quiet resistance, two bullshit. Um, and. I just, I thought about what she did and how small it was, but how big a thing it was. But also the, the other thing, because as a, as a, as a white male, I’m very, very, very privileged as a white, straight male.

I have all the privileges that you could possibly have. And, and, and I’m tall. Like I have everything except hair, but when I think about that, I also think it’s also women’s power. Right. So she represents more than one kind of thing. That’s a part. So you had Rosa Parks too. That is hilarious.

Sacha Black: [00:01:49] Yeah, that is hilarious.

But, and actually funny enough for a lot of the same reasons. So to me, I wanted to pick a woman. So I always knew I was going to be picking a woman, partly because, you know, female power, um, Well, I’m a bit of a rebel at it’s at it’s, you know, when you’re out of a history and I’m a woman. So I was picking a girl also for very similar reasons to you, the, the act of not giving somebody your seat on a bus is actually a very small act, but.

Because of who she was and because of her skin color, she changed the world. And that is what I love about those small acts of rebellion. Whilst the physical act of not getting up might be a small thing. It just ballooned into this enormous revolution that changed the world. And that is. It’s just the most perfect depiction of power and the power that each individual has.

And that’s why I love her and her rebellion act. So yeah, I can’t believe we chose the same one

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:02:57] Separated at birth. I tell you.

Sacha Black: [00:03:01] Okay.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:03:02] So rebellious twins. That’s what it is.

Sacha Black: [00:03:04] Yeah.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:03:04] Yeah. Well, I’m going to ask the next.

Sacha Black: [00:03:06] Oh, okay, cool.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:03:08] So who’s your favorite Literary rebel.

Sacha Black: [00:03:13] It’s so hard because there are. Yeah. So I actually have like a huge list and I’m not going to tell you the whole list because obviously we just need to keep it small.

And, um, so I’m going to pin it down to three and I’m going to give you the reason. So the first one is Justin Richardson and Peter Parnell, and they wrote an tango makes three, which is a kids, a book, all about unusual families. Specifically in this instance, LGBT families now this book. Oh, bond and like, so ready state.

So many countries yeah. Caused chaos. And yet the. Act of creating a story about difference and about different families gives people like me, who is, who is, um, you know, on the LGBT, uh, in the LGBT world with a child, uh, it gives my son something to feel connected to, and to feel community and to feel seen.

And so I think there’s no better rebellion than, um, something that gives people connection. So that’s why I chased them. The next one is Judy bloom. And so she was one of my favorite authors as a teenager, as a young teenager and her books, all for sort of middle grade and young adults. And they covered what seemed to me like extremely normal topics, but to lots of people that are very, very controversial.

So, you know, they cover things like religion. Um, Uh, like menstruation musterbation sex falling in love. Um, and because of that and because they talk about them so openly and honestly, and, um, you know, lots and lots of people have, um, Taken, uh, I can’t think of the word they taken a issue with her. Oh, so, and so she is one of the alumni with Stephen King.

Um, and there’s one other that I’ve now forgotten. She is one of the most fanned authors in America. And so for that reason, like I was picking up on the last one, super controversial. Because she has not written amazing in my humble opinion, but E L James, but I definitely feel like, you know, some people are going to be unhappy with this, but I don’t care because I’m a rebel.

Okay. So E L James wrote the 50 shades of gray, um, series. She rebelled because it was fan fiction. Like fan fiction is not supposed to be super famous or in millions and millions of pounds and get, you know, film rights. Um, and of course it’s the quality of her prose, but I am praising, but it’s the, the rebellious act that she inspired across women.

So because of her and, um, Have books all around, you know, sort of soft erotica, um, because of those books and because of the Kindle, uh, being very popular at the time she created a revolution and an empowerment in women’s sort of sexual confidence. And I think that is spectacular to give a whole gender confidence and empowerment.

And I love that. Wow. How about you?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:06:31] That is good. I love that. Uh, you, you, you, you rebelled against the question and gave three or like here’s a list.

Sacha Black: [00:06:39] I know. I’m so sorry.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:06:40] I either was confused by the question or rebelled against the question. Cause I didn’t go with authors, although off the top of my head, if I want to think about rebels, literary rebels, I would say Scott Sigler and Merlin Lafertty.

Cause there are two of the first authors who, um, Uh, buck the trends and, and moved into prove that self publishing could work and, and giving away your, your stuff in audio, for example, to sell books. And then they both got big publishing contracts. So an early podcasters that I admired. So, um, but when I went with, and, and, and there was no contest here, even though there’s so many fictional characters, that’s what I thought you were going for a fictional.

Sacha Black: [00:07:18] Ah, okay.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:07:21] Peter Parker Spiderman. And I know he doesn’t seem to be a rebel, however, he’s a vigilante, but he’s also a geeky nerd. Yeah. I still feel like the geeky nerd who, you know, like just no friends or whatever, can’t get a girl. That kind of thing. That was my, my persona, you know, I’m in my fifties, I still feel like a Kiki 14 year old who had those amazing powers.

And put on a mask to hide his identity, but when he puts on the mask and this is something that I’m using in my own fiction now is I’m understanding why he was such a cocky smartass when he put on the mask because, um, he, he became a different. Type of personality. He became that, that, um, you know, wise cracking, I mean, Deadpool takes it to a further brilliant, extreme, like in the same Marvel universe.

But for me, so much of my entire life is based on modeling Peter Parker with great power comes great responsibility, but then also being able to put on that mask and fight for good in a society where you know that yes, there are law enforcement officers and there’s the law and stuff like that. But sometimes you need.

To you, you need to do to rebel in order to protect people in order to help a society and stuff like that. So, so Peter Parker, uh, just central to my central to my life. Oh, I love,

Sacha Black: [00:08:45] I love that. I love Deadpool as well. He is literally one of my favorites. Like probably unsurprisingly. You want to have like favorites, but, um, yeah.

I love his movies. Um, but yeah, I liked that. And also I liked that you took a different stance on it because I wasn’t expecting that. So, yeah. Good. We’re up Elliot? Um, is it me? It’s me now. Isn’t it. Okay. So what have you learned since you started podcasting?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:09:11] Oh, God, what haven’t I learned that, uh, the reason I, the podcast is to continue to learn, like getting to talk to people like you and, and, and just understanding as many different perspectives as I can.

Um, uh, yeah. Well, what have I learned? I’ve probably learned more in the two plus years, uh, since I started well, my own podcast, but I’ve been podcasting before then. I’ve probably learned as much from the podcasts as I did in the previous 20 years. Of working in the business.

Sacha Black: [00:09:42] How about you? Have you

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:09:43] learned in one year anniversary?

Sacha Black: [00:09:46] Yeah. So I could give you, I could reel off a list of like, you know, I’ve learned technical things. I’ve learnt website things, I’ve learnt distribution things. I’ve learned little things about how to pitch people and reach out to people and all that stuff. But, um, I’m not sure. Any of those really capture the thing that has meant the most to me, which is that I can do it.

And I was so terrified for so long. And I know lots of listeners will be wanting to start a podcast and be like me from a year ago. And I genuinely didn’t think I was capable. I didn’t think, um, Organizationally. I didn’t think technically I’d be able to do it. I didn’t think, um, time-wise, I’d be able to do it.

I didn’t think, um, I just, I put stock barriers in my place, you know, and told myself I couldn’t before I’d even tried and. I think that’s the biggest thing I can say to listeners is if you love listening to podcasts, if you listen to Mark all the time, you listened to, I don’t know, Joanna Penn, for example, all the time.

And it’s something that you adore, you love audio, then just give it a go because Ali thought I couldn’t do it either. So yeah. Um, what I’ve learned is that podcasting is not as scary and terrifying or as difficult as you think it might be.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:11:10] No. Good. Good. Yeah. And you probably learned that there are people.

Out there that you don’t know that are going to benefit from the things that you know. And I think the other message I like to share with my listeners regularly is you’re an expert in something that you have knowledge and insight, you’re the best person to write your book because you’re the only one who can do it.

And you have insights. No matter where you are in your writing career, that can help any other writer, including Daniel Steele, Stephen King, James, any of those authors, right? Joanna Penn, you know, who we see as a goddess, right. In our, in our realm. Um, she learns from people who haven’t yet published a book, you know, and if, and if, and if those masters can learn, why can’t

Sacha Black: [00:11:56] we?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:11:58] Yeah. Mmm. Okay. What have you learned about yourself since starting podcasting?

Sacha Black: [00:12:05] So, yeah. I mean, those questions kind of blended for me, which I didn’t mean them to intentionally do. Yeah. Well, I will, I’ll rebel a little bit. So there is one other thing. Um, and it’s so silly, but I, which is why I’m going to tell you.

So, um, I am still. I, I apologize in advance for saying this, but I’m still shit scared of telephone calls. Oh my God. I hate them. I absolutely hate telephone calls and apparently

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:12:34] Actual telephone machine calls, not video calls?

Sacha Black: [00:12:37] Yeah. So this is the difference in my head. These calls, these Skype calls for podcasting don’t count.

I don’t know why, because it’s automated. I should be actually terrified to speak to completely new people, um, on zoom or whatever for a podcast. But when it comes to the phone style, I will avoid calling call centers. I will avoid. Calling my mom, my brother face up. Yeah. So apparently it’s, I don’t know why, but yeah, this is what I’ve learned for myself.

This is what I’ve learned about myself. I thought I would get over my fear of talking to people on the phone. Unnamed people. Nope. I can do a podcast still. Can’t do a phone call. What about you?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:13:16] Oh, um,

I, I’m not surprised to learn this. But I’ve always been a procrastinator, but I think so. I have not in a weekly podcast since the first week of January, 2018, regardless of what’s going on in my world, it could be heavily deathbed food. Whatever’s going on. I have not missed a Friday sometimes I’ve not posted it till noon on the Friday.

Normally I post them Thursday night and then yeah. You know, midnight that I have them roll over and it doesn’t matter how early I record things. I could have five or six episodes in the bag. I’m still not producing it till late on Thursday. And it’s kind of like, well, I never early make plans for Thursday night.

Now when I’m traveling and stuff like that for work often I’ve recorded stuff from hotel rooms. I have pre recorded, some things I’ve done, you know, all kinds of stuff. Uh, so I think I, what I learned about myself is that I don’t think I will ever. Ever resolved my procrastination issues, what I do know about myself and, and I, and I played to this strength is I work to deadline.

And, and this is just, you know, and so if my deadline, because I’ve made a commitment to, to who’ve, I made the commitment to, well, yeah, well to my listeners. Right. But I mean, really, I mean, it’s not like they’re going to get upset if it’s a day later, I miss a week or I decide to take a vacation or something.

But I think the deadline is so critical to me, which is why, you know, I’ve got two books right now that I haven’t written that are up for preorder for early 20, 21. I got to help. I write them. I know I’m going to. Right. So I think, um, I think I’ve just reaffirmed the fact that I’m never not going to be a procrastinator.

That’s just, that’s my super power.

Sacha Black: [00:14:59] I love that. Um, but the thought of having to do it in a hotel room gives me hives.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:15:06] But the audio doesn’t come out that well. Right? Cause you, you can’t control the sound as well, even though I’ve, I’ve traveled with the little mic I’ve I actually have a little bag, which it’s all like it wraps and protects it to travel with it.

I’m thinking I get in the second, like just for travel because I don’t have to disconnect it from the mic, like the arm mechanical arm.

Sacha Black: [00:15:24] I love it. Okay. What’s your favorite thing about podcasting? I

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:15:30] think my favorite thing is hearing from somebody. That I have never met, or maybe only met in passing quickly at a conference somewhere and hearing that, uh, an interview I did with somebody or a reflection I made that had actually.

That it actually helped them. That, that, that it actually inspired them. I mean, honestly, honestly, I know it’s, it’s why we write, we write to touch people, not, you know, not in an easy way we write, we write to touch other lives, our, our, our stories and, and we’ll will resonate with somebody emotionally.

It’ll do something, it’ll lift them up. It will bring them down, whatever it is we want them to do. And when I learned that something that I spent time and energy and love and passion on when I learned that it actually helps someone else. That powers me, that fuels me. And that’s my favorite thing. How about you?

What’s your

Sacha Black: [00:16:22] it’s kind of similar. I would say. So I love that the conversations that I have with, um, very amazing people in the industry, every single episode will produce a golden nuggets. So it doesn’t, you know, within that 60 minutes, it might be one nugget. Sometimes it’s 10 nuggets, but. And also that every lesson, I will take a different nugget from it, but I love that these big conversations create these tiny, um, uh, you know, uh, what’s the word epiphany’s almost that can change an author’s whole career trajectory.

And I love that. I get to share that and give that, you know, that’s something that we give and put into the community, um, and that they, and I. I guess also the people do come back and say that, but, you know, I have spoken to so many people that have quite literally changed the direction that I was going in.

They’ve given me, you know, huge, um, huge craft improvements just from these tiny little nuggets and, um, yeah, that, you know, I can help other people by creating these in these conversations. That’s what I love the most.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:17:34] That is awesome. That is awesome. Um, And for me to ask you a question, Sasha, why, why do you think rebellion is important?

Obviously it is important, but why is it important?

Sacha Black: [00:17:50] I think that rebellion is so deeply entwined in creativity that they are almost one in the same. And I think that every single creative. Is a rebel because the act of. Bringing something out of nothing, the act of putting your thoughts and your words and your story and your spin out into the world, which may or may not, um, uh, you know, make people happy.

They may be, they may hate your side of the story. They may love desperately love your side of the story. I think every single word that we put out there is an act of rebellion in a sense. I also. I think rebellion is so important because it is at the root of all change. So, you know, we wouldn’t have an indie community if it weren’t for the small acts of rebellion that led to people, um, publishing independently.

So I think rebellion is at the root of everything good in this world. Um, so yeah, like I think it is everything. It is, it is everything that we need to, to solve all of our problems in the world.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:19:09] Yeah. I mean, I agree when you go back to biological, you know, our species wouldn’t exist if not for rebellion at the molecular or biological level, as, as mutations and adaptations said, movie changed and became something bizarre and strange and new and unique.

So, yeah, I honestly agree. And I think, um, so much, so much good can come out so bad too, but so much good can come out of that. And there’s also this, um, Without rebellion, it’s complete compliance. And one of the, I think when, when, when I reflect back on my university years, I, you know, I, you know, I took English language and literature.

So one would one would assume that I learned a lot about the masters and about, you know, the writer, literature and society and all of those things. But what I really learned, the, the, the biggest takeaway was critical thinking. Not to just accept something that I’m told, but to actually analyze it, it didn’t understand the source of where it’s coming from.

So I can try desperately, especially in these divisive times. I know where I stand, but I am also very aware of my own confirmation bias about everything. And so I try to look at it and say, why did I like that? Oh, because it confirmed everything I believe then. Okay, sure. But why else did I like, what about it or why didn’t I agree with that?

Well, because of this, Oh, do I need to read more? Do I not understand this? And I think rebellion and critical thinking are critical because you have to understand why the change is necessary in order to move forward, potentially. So, yeah, I mean, very similar to your reasoning there.

Sacha Black: [00:20:45] Why do you think as a society, we are so compliant.

I mean, this is completely ad hoc, you know, prepared you for this, but why do you think we are

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:20:56] well, I’m Canadian, so it’s very much, I just a people pleaser. Right. I just want people to be happy and not be upset and right. So, so oftentimes you just kind of go with it. And again, I, I mentioned just. Finishing reading and white fragility.

And, and, and, and I recognize all of those times was that I was compliant because I just wanted to save the feelings of another white person. Because if I had said something, it would have interrupted and made everyone uncomfortable. Well, dammit, why didn’t I do that? Why did I perpetuate the supremacy, uh, in, in a small, I’d see, it sounds like, and again, not seeing us as bad people, but why did I do something like that?

Or why didn’t I speak out about sexism or any of those things? So I think, I think those little rebellions, which bring us it’s kind of discomfort can cause growth. Hmm. And so, uh, I, I reflect on times when I had been called out for things I had said, and didn’t realize it had been offensive to someone else.

Uh, and I appreciate desperately the courage that the person who called me out on it said, even though I can go, I’ve got to look back 30 years and think of something that somebody said to me and I went, okay, Oh, I, I didn’t take that the right way. I need to contact them and apologize and thank them for calling me out on it.

It took me 30 years to figure out what I said was wrong or how I had approached it was wrong. So I think, um, yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s important.

Um, we’re getting deep here.

Sacha Black: [00:22:25] I know we are, but I think it’s so important because you know, I genuinely think that we are. Bread as a, as a people to be compliance because there is protection and numbers, you know, stay with the pack. Um, but you never see a successful person. Um, as part of the pack, they are, they are, they always stand out.

They are always were about rebels. They are always leaders. And therefore, you know, you have to embrace your inner rebel if you want to make it. But, uh, so I guess this, and I think it’s my question. I forget who’s doing what now, but, um, I, I think this leads us to the final question and I don’t know my answer to this.

Um, but what kind of rebel are you?

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:23:18] Aye. It’s funny. I don’t know what kind of rebel I am, but, but I, but I understand in, in the publishing industry, I have consistently looked at the way things are and said, this is bullshit. It does not need to be this way. What if it were this way? And I honestly think that how I’ve gotten to where I’ve gotten.

Not that I’m anything big, but how I’ve every single step in the evolution of where I’ve gotten to in this industry has been not being satisfied with the way things are that we need something in place. And so the type of rebel I’ve been as I’ve questioned the status quo and yet not just punched against it for the sake of breaking it, but punching against it with a goal to make things better.

Or to change things in whatever small steps, whether that’s using print on demand technology, whether that’s using, uh, digital, um, uh, I mean the very one of my very first acts that I can remember was, uh, being the manager who wouldn’t sit on his hands, being the manager who wanted to be able to do every single task that he assigned.

To a staff members. To me that was really, really critical that I could understand what they were doing. Um, self publishing, my first book in 2004, when all of my friends who were full time, authors making a living off this is don’t self publish. It’s the best way you can ruin your career. And I said, I’m doing it.

And here’s why, but I had reasons it wasn’t just because I was being pigheaded it’s because, because they had already been published in small press magazines. And so they’d already been edited. So they’re already been curated. So I kind of had that stamp of approval. But people tend to want. That’s what publishing is for a lot of authors who are already successful independently.

So I think I’m the kind of rebel who, who, who makes those small steps or wants to make those small steps to, uh, to make things right? Or what about, what about you, have you thought about what kind of rebel who you actually are? Just troublemaker.

Sacha Black: [00:25:09] Yeah, I think I was a born troublemaker. Um, is there any hard for me because I’m not sure if I was a born rebel or if I was made a rebel.

Um, and, and that’s why I find this a hard one to answer because. Part of me would like to think I’m a quiet rebel. So I do lots of small quiet acts of rebellion against the system. But my experience through my life is not that my experience is, and this is why I’m not sure if I was made a rebel, I didn’t fit in because other people didn’t let me fit in.

And. You know, I wasn’t white enough to be white. I wasn’t Brown enough to be Brown. I wasn’t, you know, anything, I wasn’t straight enough to be straight. I wasn’t gay enough to be gay. You know, like I’ve never quite fit into any box or any group. And therefore other people have. Made me, uh, well, you know, I, I don’t want to be like a woe is me, but I have never been in any of those communities or groups.

And therefore that has pushed me to rebellion because, well, you know, if you’re not going to include me, then, you know, give you the birdie and I’ll go and do something by myself, you know? And so I know. I am. So I think I fully embrace rebellion and every single kind of form reverse psychology works really well on me.

You tell him you got to do something. I’m going to go and do it. So, yeah, I think I am the, I am one embodiment of rebellion. I am rebellion in all its forms because I don’t fit in any group, particular group, you know, a box ticking box. I don’t, um, Any rule that’s placed on me throughout my life. I have always made a point to try and break.

So even though I would like to think I’m a quite rebel or you think I’m probably already loud rebel. Um, yeah, so I haven’t got as, as, uh, um, generous rebellion, you know, I, I don’t think I’ve necessarily ever, um, I haven’t done what you’ve done and gone down the route of trying to make things better for other people.

I think I have, I think I was. Both formed a rebel and made a rebel. Um, you know, I don’t know whether you believe in fate or whatever, and, you know, perhaps I could have gone a different path, but I didn’t. I embraced, I think the carrot that was well, the, the, you know, the bit of me that was born a rebel. Um, yeah, I don’t know that I have a, uh, A a as kind stories as you, but I want to Dodge it because I didn’t get one last time.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:27:56] Well, I just want to say congratulations, happy anniversary. Um, and, and it’s very, uh, it’s very, very obvious listening to you talk about the rebel that you are, why you chose the brand. I think it’s, when I think about that brand, it is so perfectly fitting for, for you and what you do for, and actually ironically, You don’t recognize this, but what you are doing is your helping other people by that rebellious spirit, by sharing those, uh, those perspectives.

And by and by, by boldly declaring those things, you’re helping empower other authors. You’re probably just not recognizing that. So thank you for that.

Sacha Black: [00:28:36] Oh, that means a lot. Thank you.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:28:40] I think about the mountain. That you have climbed and the mountains that you help, other authors and other creatives climb.

And did you know that jokes about rebels who scale mountains? They’re uh, they’re not just funny. They’re hilarious.

Sacha Black: [00:29:09] I loved that

it was a good one. I liked it. And then I got caught funny. I’m literally crying. I can’t believe you crafted it. Uh, about rev. Rebel is the opposite end. There’s a whole joke. Uh, between me and my wife, because I don’t understand jokes ever, unless they’re yeah, no, I just don’t get checked. I’m that person?

Yeah, the conversation has moved on and five minutes later, I will laugh when I finally worked out what the joke was, which is why I love that joke. So much because they’re always a play on words, which is why I can understand that. But, um, yeah,

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:29:51] that explains why, why? Right. Because they’re in your wheelhouse, right?

Sacha Black: [00:29:54] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I say thank you for that. You’ve made my day.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:29:59] Awesome. Well, again, congratulations. And I’m taking this damn podcast over at least temporarily to say Sasha, where can people find out more about you and the rebel author podcast?

Sacha Black: [00:30:09] Oh, okay. Yes, of course. So, um, such a black.co.uk. That’s a Sasha with a C a if you’d like to interact with me, then Instagram is your best bet.

And I am at Sasha black author, and you can listen to the podcasts basically on any podcatcher. I I’m pretty sure I’ve now got distribution on anything. So just type in the rebel author podcast, and you should find me

Mark Leslie Lefebvre: [00:30:31] awesome. Thanks for taking over.

Sacha Black: [00:30:34] Thank you. Uh, wait. No. Yes. Two, right. I will take over forever.

Okay.