Raissa Rivera Falgui's Blog, page 4

Philippine Children's and YA Books that Could Have Great Sequels

Because I've been busy finishing the sequel to my book, in between dealing with family epidemics, I didn't get to post much in my social media about children's books in July, National Children's Book Month. Anyway, in my country this is National Language Month (Buwan ng Wika) so I think it's still appropriate to be writing about children's books, which after all are important in promoting language and culture.

Shelving some of my kids' books, I got to thinking about sequels. Series books are extremely helpful in developing the reading habit in children. I've seen this in my own kids and others. Children especially get obsessed with particular characters they can relate with. Luckily, this trend is increasing in the Philippines. Adarna, my publisher, published several companion books last year, including a prequel to Supremo, a sequel to Si Janus Sílang at ang Tiyanak ng Tábon (a planned series), a companion book toRobert Magnuson's Mr. Beetle's Many Rooms, and a new installment of Pilandok.

Quick definitions: A sequel is a book that continues or tells what happens after a story, a prequel what happens before, a companion book uses the same characters or setting (such as a fantasy world created for the story) but is completely separate from the earlier installment. But putting two or more books related in any of these ways already constitutes a series, though the term is normally used when there are more than two books. The Narnia series contains a combination of these. It actually started with The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe. Some of the books added later were sequels using the same children as characters (Prince Caspian, the Dawn Treader), there's also a prequel and several companion books that use the setting but don't have the kids or Aslan in them (The Horse and His Boy, for example).

Anyway, once a child likes a particular character or story, he/she will tend to seek out similar ones. So do grown-ups, but it's in children that this tendency is especially valuable since their reading capabilities and habits are still being formed.

Here's a list of my suggestions for books that a series can be built on.

1. 'Eto na Si Kulasa! (Here Comes Kulasa!) by Becky Bravo.
The first book I picked up which I wished had a sequel. Kulasa is something like a Filipino Ramona Quimby, getting into all sorts of scrapes, which is probably why after rereading her Ramona and Junie B. books my daughter sought it out for a reread. She's an obvious character for a series. The title even sounds like it's introducing a series (with companions like Nandiyan na Si Kulasa [Kulasa is There Now] and Nasaan na si Kulasa? [Where is Kulasa?]) .

2. The Great Duck and Crocodile Race by Robert Magnuson.
Duck and Crocodile are so much like Mo Willems' Elephant and Piggie. But the things they do are even more over the top. I'd love to see them in something to do with water--they're swimming creatures, after all! How about Duck and Crocodile Make a Splash--because those two sure do!

3. Supremo by Xi Zuq. While I liked its prequel Pangkat Papaya, I still wanted to know what happened in the play mentioned at the end of Supremo. Two books aren't quite considered a series. Besides, these books would make a great contribution, being targeted to middle-schoolers and particularly boys, who tend to lose interest in reading at that age.

4. Two Friends, One World. There's a lot more that can be done with these two friend, one who is blind and one who is not. It would be interesting to see them in other settings, doing things like going to school or watching a movie together.

5. Una and Miguel by Lilldeshan Bose.
The strength of this brief teen romance is its characters. The unconventional Una is especially charming and sympathetic. It would be nice to see how their relationship grow and to see how they deal with other problems such as Una's cold parents.

Because most Filipino authors focus on developing story, not characters, it's not so easy to think of books that can take off into series. But I do hope more Filipino authors ride on the trend. Coming up with a series not only helps to sell books, it helps to sell reading.

The Delight of Humdrum Details

As I reach the last two or three chapters of my novel, I find that I don't have trouble writing when it comes to the exciting parts. What I do have trouble with are the scenes of humdrum everyday life, moreso if they're of contemporary life.

Yet these relatively boring bits are necessary, I realized. Victor Hugo I believe once said that the quiet moments were just as important as the dramatic ones and I think I know why now. Life is made up of more times like these than the thrilling ones.

A good analogy is a relationship. The courtship phase is exciting--surprise presents, first kisses, extravagant gestures--but it's the everyday things that make up the real fabric of your life together. I always wonder about those relationships in books where the couple gets together when the guy saves the damsel in distress. Just because a guy is heroic is no guarantee you can live with him.

My having trouble writing such scenes may tie in with my difficulty in making small talk, at least with people I don't really know. If I do really know a person, I am quick to make small talk, which is not really small to me, because I do really care about the little details of their lives--their family, their work, their favorite movies and food and such. And that, I realize, is what I have to do when I don't know how to proceed in filling up the details of daily life. Take the time to get to know the characters more. Right now I'm writing a scene set around Christmas, so I decided to reflect on what presents people were giving and getting. I think this will help to get things moving along again.

I'm finding checking a calendar when I get stuck to be helpful. I always checked timelines when I got stuck in writing historical scenes and always found something that I could build upon. Well, it works for everyday scenes as well. What's after Christmas? New Year's, Chinese New Year, prom season, Valentine's--all of which are relevant to my characters and story. And just thinking about what people do at such times helps me a lot in coming up with the small details I need to develop and embellish my story.

Reframing Woman in a Frame

I recently gave a talk in a friend's class on children's literature about issues in historical writing. One interesting question brought up was what would make topics in Philippine history would make good historical fiction.

A few students were familiar with Adarna's YA historical books set in important periods of history, like Martial Law. Most, however, did not know there was Philippine historical fiction for kids. To be sure, there isn't much. Apart from my own book and the series I mentioned, there's Enrique el Negro and May-i by Carla Pacis and Isang Harding Papel by Augie Rivera.

But, playing the devil's advocate, I pointed out that some of these might not be considered stories in the strict sense. They are fiction because not enough about the characters and actual events is known to write a factual story, hence gaps are filled in by the writer's imagination. But very often situations and places are just described by a character who is on the fringes of things and does not act to resolve the conflict.

To be honest, now and then I still wonder if I was right to let my creative writing class talk me into changing the ending which I felt was "more realistic" given the culture of the times. But while talking about the ideals of children's lit, I realized the new ending was the better one, because I forced my protagonist into direct involvement with the Philippine Revolution--in a small way, only, perhaps, but it was still, one student said, empowering, and realistic given the ways most actual women and children contributed to the efforts of the Katipunan. And by doing so her character was uplifted to focusing on national concerns rather than remaining fixated on her smaller personal issues.

So I'm glad I gave this talk. Also because it has started me thinking about my historical writing projects again. Among my unfinished manuscripts are a sequel to Woman in a Frame.

Writerly New Year Resolutions

I didn't join NaNoWriMo because I couldn't decide what book to write. I wrote a short book that could be read by my husband's junior high students so I guess I'm off the hook when it comes to my promise to write a book he could use in school. Getting it published is another matter. I'll see to that, but publication is not something I can promise.

So now I've finally decided that I'm ready to write my ballet middle-grade novel, with my daughter in mind. That is my first resolution. Probably a few pages every weekend till summer vacation, now that I'm teaching.

Another is I promise to submit to contests. I don't promise to write anything new, but I do seem to have some old stories that will do for the contests shared with me by my friend Gill. http://www.dystopianstories.com/writi...

And I promise to follow up on my submissions, something I have rarely time for, so will probably wait for summer vacation again.
That's plenty for resolutions as a writer, since I have resolutions for other aspects of my life. I will keep them--there is no try!

More? - Post-Holiday Reflections.

This may be our most excessive Christmas holiday yet. My daughter got overloaded with new dresses from one grandma and dolls from the other. Of course they'll tell you three new dresses and three dolls are not too much. And I have to admit we bought her about seven new books. My bookish husband and I don't have much time to shop, so when we do, we tend to go overboard. We also discovered a lot of the space stuff my son is into this year, so he got three Guardians of the Galaxy toys. The baby was given two rattles by each grandma plus I don't remember what else. Such is the problem when too much stuff comes at once.

The number of presents they get is all the more overwhelming since one of their grandmas gives them "twelve gifts of Christmas"--which means they have twenty new items already even before Christmas Eve! The baby is not included yet, so next year, it will be thirty-six presents, plus! My mother-in-law does not limit herself to one major gift each. Of course they love it, but it concerned my husband and me. When my eldest was baptized, I proposed to my family that we wait till we've seen her presents from other people before we buy our own presents for her, to avoid duplication. I follow this practical policy on birthdays as well. But I am the only one. The grandmothers feel gifts are central to the occasion. Despite our hints that we don't want stuff to be the focus.

While holiday shopping we discovered the book More. It's the picture story of a mouse and a magpie who collect stuff from a junkpile and end up unable to carry all their stuff. The story is told in far less words in the book, appropriately. Perhaps it was finding this book that encouraged us to reduce our purchases, taking out a book that we had once borrowed from the library and such.

I made it a point to read this book to my preschool son when he was looking for still more Christmas presents to open. I understand his wistfulness at not receiving nearly as many presents as his teacher dad and grade-schooler sister, whose has almost triple the number of classmates, and who the grandmas tend to get more excited about buying girly stuff. She is the opposite--once she's opened a few presents and gets excited about them, she settles down to try them out and forgets to open any others for a while.

I'm not sure the lesson sank in yet. He cried because we wouldn't let him bring home his new Play-Doh set from Grammy's yet because he had a big container of blocks from her to bring home. And with all his other toys, we thought the Play-Doh was already excessive, not to mention messy.

Actually, he is not the only one who can benefit from the book's lesson. Back in November, I said that I didn't need to go shopping for my kids' presents. I still had a lot of stuff in my closet I was keeping for them.

So what happened? There were toy sales. And with three children, if you have that special find for one, you feel you have to get as much for the other.

I partly blame the retailers. Some years you can hardly find anything nice. This year we saw so many cute clothes and unique toys. I have already issued a new t-shirt ban but still they each got one or two that were, according to the grandma who bought them, irresistible.

My mother-in-law told me not to worry about the dolls, though. She would buy a shelf for them.


Santa was wiser. Santa had enough for two stockings each for the older kids by November. Some of the things had been in our closets for a year or more, waiting for the right time. Including a 15 peso (30 US cent) book about Wise Men from outer space, A Cosmic Christmas. The only stocking item bought in December, originally chosen for my son, was a tiny skateboard, which cost less than a dollar but she has now decorated beautifully with glitter pens. Oh, and the baby's cute bobblehead dragon just like one from the corner thrift shop.

Strange, but I don't even remember the Santa stocking presents except for those, the Junie B. paperback with Junie B. Jones and the Yucky Blucky Fruitcake and Junie B., First Grader: Jingle Bells, Batman Smells! (P.S. So Does May.) and my son's Max And Ruby Maxs Christmas. These are the things that really engaged my children and became memorable.

Don't get me wrong, I think most of the stuff they got was great, and really suited to their interests. The trouble is having so much of it ALL AT ONCE. Spacing it out over twelve days is not enough. My son wants to open and try everything out right away. My daughter also gets pretty excited about gifts when she first sees them. But with fast-paced gift-opening and using, do they even remember who gave them the present? Often they forget, defeating the purpose of gift-giving in the first place. It's supposed to be about expressing love, not about cluttering our house with more things.

The avalanche of presents is supposed to help make Christmas special. But too much and the holiday becomes all about presents. And that saddens me. We had none of our usual outings to see lights this year. Only Disney on Ice. Too many activities is tiring too, of course; what is needed is a balance. I wanted to have twelve days of special activities--many at home--instead of twelve days of presents.

I admit I'm disgruntled too at being overshadowed. Aside from those two in her stocking, my daughter has not even looked at the five other books we got for her. And on Christmas night, she stationed her dolls on one half of our bed and wouldn't let anyone move them to make room for us to sleep.

I would take her attachment to stuff more seriously if I didn't know that she gets obsessed with a new thing for a week or two, then forgets about it. Which is why I think it might be better to have more occasions for presents to space out the giving.

Except the way the grandmas are, that won't be a solution. They won't spread out what they give so much as buy more for each occasion!

Perhaps there is no solution other than to let the kids enjoy their gifts but let other things take priority over gifts. Focus not on the blocks and Play-Doh but the fun they had playing with the toys with their cousins. And after the holiday excesses, quietly clear away all but their favorites to take out on other occasions.

As Writers Grow Older

It's always a shock to me and see a photo of a writer whose work I enjoyed as child or a teen and see he or she has white hair. It's an especial shock with someone like Judy Blume, who captures a kid's voice so well--and it turns out she's a grandmother! And in fact was already a grandmother when writing the last Fudge book.

The past year, I've found out that one of my favorite writers from my tween to teen years just died last year: Zilpha Keatley Snyder. I had been revisiting her books and discovering a few I hadn't read before when I decided to google her biography and learned I was just over a year too late to write to her about her books that I'd just read. I was glad that I had messaged her on Facebook about five years ago. She was actively writing still just a few years back, in her early eighties, as was Beverly Cleary, who wrote the last Ramona book, Ramona's World, which fittingly is one of the best, in 1999--and so far she is still alive at 99 years old!

That is the kind of writer to aspire to be. It's not all about collecting awards and accolades. I remember reading the saddest interview with Austregelina Espina-Moore while doing research for her biography. How depressed she sounded. Once she had been a very popular writer and won international awards. But for many years she had suffered crippling arthritis and was unable to write.

Writing for young people may well help maintain a youthful spirit in writers. Not all writers maintain their touch into old age, though; sadly one of my favorite writer's last few books were only passable. That is why the quality of Ramona's World amazes me--it has the same character as most of the earlier ones. Robert Cormier wrote a short but stunning novella, The Rag and Bone Shop soon before his death at age 75, Lloyd Alexander wrote the exquisite The Rope Trick when he was just a few years older.

I do write for adults, but I'm inclined to think, given the examples, that there are more health benefits in writing for young readers. They are more inclined to write fan mail, for one thing. Maybe it's because teachers encourage them to, but I've had several casual messages from readers in my Facebook accounts. Only one adult has ever directly written to me to praise me for my writing, though--and that was for an assignment in grad school! Positive reviews are good for mental health and help keep one motivated to write. I think it's because children are less wary of sharing their opinions with others.

But more than this, it is the frame of mind that writers for children and teens are expected to adopt. And that is to stay hopeful.

Well Robert Cormier is one exception. But then, he didn't live nearly as long as Beverly Cleary, did he?

Since I've just had a son, I'm going to have kids and teens in my home until I'm nearly 60. By which time I will probably be on the verge of having grandchildren! As broad as my interests are, I think I will probably be writing mainly for young readers for the rest of my life, assuring I will have the readership of at least four: my three boys (husband included) and one girl.

Writing as a Job

My daughter's guidance counselor asked me to give a career talk. Now I normally enjoy talking about writing but as a job? Unlike other writers I have heard speak I do not have a strict routine. My writing routine is imposed by what I'm writing. I spend most of the day mulling over my stories while doing housework. In the early stages, I don't write anything at all. Once I've fleshed out my characters and have a good idea how the story should begin and end, I start writing. Well, sometimes I start without the end in mind. But when I do that I risk taking forever to complete the story--as what happened with my Adarna book Hating Kapatid. It took me three years to think of an ending!

For Love Among the Geeks, I was able to produce a chapter every single day. This was when I had only two children. My daughter was in the first grade afternoon class and my son not yet in school. This sounds like it would make it harder to work but not really. I could let my kids sleep until eight, so I could write from 4-8 am. I had no school lunch to prepare--I just threw packaged snacks in the lunchbox. The rest of the day I wrote on and off between doing other things and I would plan the next chapter in my mind as I fell asleep at night.

Now I wake up at four and I have to feed a baby and fix two school lunches. Yes, I can write after, but being unwillingly roused from sleep is different from being awakened by the excitement of a good idea. When I go to the computer with nothing in mind, then I will dither. That's why I'm on fb now!

I do have one rule I adhere to and that is I must always do something related to my writing when I'm at the computer. It can be research or editing or adding to character profiles. So if I filled in a time sheet I could enter those activities as time spent on my job. Hmm, maybe having an actual time sheet is not a bad idea.

I never miss a deadline for commissioned work, though, even if I don't work according to schedule. I try to set aside a couple of days to work on an article, a few days before the deadline. A deadline not only pushes me to work, but is something respected my family, which will make them pitch in to help more. But the only one who would respond to a general, "I need time to write" is my husband.

The thing is, I feel a greater need now to show my daughter that I do work and earn money. Recently, as my husband and I were discussing who could go to her PTC, I said I would have to as Daddy could not get out of work. "But you don't work, do you Mom?" she said. I pointed out that looking after the family was work and going to talk to her teacher was one of my mom jobs.

When it came to the actual PTC day, I learned she was acting lazy in school. I can't help thinking that her perception that I don't work and I just do whatever I want when I want to may be a contributing factor.

So maybe logging in time is a good idea. So my daughter--and others--can see how much time I have to spend to create a new work. What do you think?

Filipino Word Play--a Possible Book

I love puns in any of the languages I have the slightest facility in. This often shows in my writing, most notably in my new adult ebooks Always Onlineand Love Among the Geeks. I'd long ago contemplated writing a children's book in Filipino with wordplay, starting with bulol (speaking in a garbled way) and bul'ol (a native figure used in superstitious rituals).

I was reminded of this when we were in the car and my daughter started telling us about a legend, in Filipino alamat, which she pronounced accenting the second syllable, like salamat minus the s. So her storytelling got interrupted while we corrected her pronunciation and she complained about why words that were similar in spelling had to be pronounced differently. We speculated that it had to do with word origin. Salamat, I know because of the boxes of cereal we buy that are made in Malaysia, is from Bahasa. Alamat, we confess, we don't know. With English, it's easy to find the origin of any word through the website Etymonline. I wish someone would come up with a Filipino version. I will have to ask our Filipino teacher neighbor, who edited Florante at Laura: Edisyong Tapat kay Balagtas (Florante and Laura: Truest Edition to Balagtas's Vision); Filipino (Translation), when he wakes up.

Lacking any data, I surmised it came from the word alam (know) and lahat. Since these stories are oral tradition that are known throughout a community, it made sense to say they were alam ng lahat (known by all). Lahat has a strongly accented second syllable, so it makes sense to emphasize this in a truncation of the phrase.

At home, I did a search online but came up with nothing. Even my Alternative Alamat: Stories Inspired by Philippine Mythology doesn't have any explanation as to the roots of the word.

Because of lack of resources, my speculations on the Filipino language often go no farther than speculation. I remember when I asked my household helper to use a thermometer given by the hospital when I gave birth. When she used it on my daughter, she told me there was something wrong with the LCD display. So I went to get our old, expensive thermometer, muttering, "Mumurahin lang ito." (This is really cheap. Mura is Filipino for cheap, but also "curse" or "swear." And given my annoyance, I reflected that both meanings were appropriate at the time. But why does the word have these two meanings? Google it. You won't find out.

I really wish there was a Filipino authority on language who wrote about it as engagingly as Richard Lederer does with English. Lederer's books deal with errors in language, puns, homonyms, and etymologies, for the most part presented with humorously. While my parents were English teachers and therefore I naturally inherited from them facility in English, Lederer's entertaining books motivated me to develop a stronger grasp of grammar and style rather than to just speak and write correctly because *sigh* my parents said so. It also developed in me a fascination with words which manifests itself not only in a love of puns but also a sensitivity to the nuances of language that is essential to a writer. It helps not just to intuit a word is right or wrong but to be able to articulate why. Besides, Lederer never interrupted my train of thought with a lecture on correct use of language. As we did with my daughter.

Right. I should go to bed so I'll have time in the morning to hear her retell the alamat (accent on the final syllable) that she learned in school. And then I can pass on the role of educating her in Filipino etymology to my neighbor.

Maybe he can write a book explaining words; the most I can do is do the word play that will stimulate interest in words. But if the answers aren't accessible, fascination with the Filipino language will easily turn into frustration.

Mighty Girls in Science and Math--Where are They in Fiction?

I was just reading this morning a Time article questioning the lack of female role models working in the fields of math and science depicted in Hollywood films. Of course Hollywood still does a much better job than the film industry in my country (more on that in a later post). And it's true they are few enough. It's worse for children's films. Too often in film and fiction, the tough, smart, scientifically and mathematically inclined girl goes the way of Up's Ellie: She grows up to give up a career in any STEM field for homemaking.

It's the case for A Wrinkle in Time's Meg--When does she ever use her prowess in math in any of her adventures anyway? The first two books in the series focus on repairing her character flaws. Never does she make use of her mathematical genius and worse, when she grows up her brothers are a lawyer, doctor and scientist and she is a housewife assisting her scientist husband.

I loved science when I was a kid; so does my daughter. I have always read a lot of science articles and I find a good grasp of scientific principles is a great help in my writing both sci-fi and nonfiction. My current freelance writing gig is for a health magazine but I found it equally helpful writing for Baby Magazine, as I often had to interview doctors. I've even found it helpful in editing a book on herbal remedies. Just because you don't have a career in the field doesn't mean it isn't going to be helpful to you to understand math and science. And girls who have a real talent in it need all the encouragement they can get.

Unfortunately, scientists in books, television shows and movies are almost always male. There are a few charming exceptions. Meg's mother is a beautiful and brilliant chemist. She's actually an inspiration to me even though I don't work in the scientist; her depiction shows how to juggle career and homemaking. The movie Meet the Robinsons shows also a woman scientist married to a man, but why do they have to make her look weird? That's hardly encouraging to girls.

I've been racking my brains to think of works like these to introduce to my daughter. Smart girls in books are almost always detectives. But hardly anyone grows up to become a detective. Suzy Austin in Madeleine L'Engle's Austins series is into science and wants to be a doctor. Unfortunately she is a secondary character with a tendency to be abrasive and hence not that likable.

Being aware of this, I made a conscious decision to create more female characters who are proficient in math and science. In "Summer of Sand and Sea," the story I submitted to an anthology to be published by Ateneo Press next year, the protagonist is a teenage girl who is planning to be a marine biologist. In my recently completed Kabanata novel, Black and Blue, the female protagonist is proficient in both aikido and math. They are both protagonists in romances, which I feel is important too. One reason girls shun mat and science in their teens is they are afraid being good at these will be a turn-off to boys.

But I have yet to think of such a story for a book for younger girls. I have a book about a young ballerina in mind for my next girl book project, as this is another of my daughter's interests. But I really would like to encourage her proficiency in science and encourage her to work harder in math. I have a story in mind about a STEM proficient boy, intended to fulfill a promise to my husband who teaches junior high. If anyone can suggest a good story for a girl's book about such a character, I would be very grateful.

My NaNoWriMo Dilemmas

It's National Novel Writing Month--but I just finished a YA novel last month! I am burned out and deserve a rest.

On the other hand, I have two ideas for middle-grade novels to work on, plus an unfinished YA novel, which is unfinished all because my husband didn't like the male protagonist. The changes for that should be minimal; I have a pretty good idea what to revise. But hey, it's not National Novel Revising Month. Okay, I admit, I just don't feel like working on it now. Much as I love the premise, it's kind of a depressing one to work on (about a feral child). This was also my problem with the last novel I wrote under my Kabanata writing fellowship. It's easy to write on a depressing topic when you are depressed, which is why I made the most headway in that book in the first month recuperating after giving birth, when I was, if not actually depressed, hormonal and lonely. But if you are happy, you don't want to immerse yourself in unhappy thoughts.

So perhaps I should start the middle-grade novels. Now I have to decide if I have to write the one with a male protagonist in junior high or the one with a female protagonist. I tend to be more motivated to write about girls, especially since my daughter can read books up to the fifth grade level. I badly want to write a book for her. Best Christmas present! On the other hand, I still owe my husband a book that he can use for his students. Since he's moved from teaching fifteen-year-olds to teaching thirteen-year-olds, the YA book I wrote with a sixteen-year-old male protagonist is no longer appropriate! Why do I make promises like this? I have such a guilt complex I can't bear to break a promise. And besides, my husband is the one who's harder to buy a Christmas present for. The only trouble is he's a bit more critical than my daughter. What if he disapproves of my male protagonist again? I might be better off buying him socks.

November isn't ideal for novel writing in this country, as far as I'm concerned, anyway. I can see why it's good in the West. Cold, wet, perhaps even snowy, it's best to stay in. Here, though, the rains are just tapering off. Everyone is already getting ready for Christmas. The thought that a manuscript would make a nice Christmas present is a motivator for me. But actually the best months for novel writing is October, with the semestral break and relatively cool weather. Looking back, I realize I actually complete most stories in October. Including one that I've just posted on Wattpad.

I did write a 10,000 word middle-grade book for the SABA in four days. That's at about the rate of ten pages a day. I'm not even sure how I managed it now. I started on a weekend and my kids were home sick for a couple of days following it. And we lived on instant soup and hot dogs and beans, which fortunately my whole family loves. Plus lots of pizza provided by my father and brother-in-law.

So, four days times two is eight. If I make these books twice as long, that will be sixteen days. Subtract two hours from each day, because I need to nap, cook meals, feed baby, and supervise homework. Add four more days to make up for those thirty-two hours. So I could actually write two middle-grade books in twenty days. Or at least I could try. :) Now I only have to decide which one to start with.