Jennifer Crusie's Blog, page 315

The Three-Goddesses Chat: Book Soundtracks

This is the fifth in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Most writers have discovery methods, techniques they use to brainstorm their stories and keep them in the world of the book. The Three Goddesses favor soundtracks and collage, so these next two chats are on music and pictures. Today's topic: Soundtracks.

Jenny: So let's talk about brainstorming. You both use soundtracks for your books, right?



Lani: I start with the soundtrack, because listening to music and saying, "Yes," or "No," to a particular song helps me narrow down my story. It helps me know what I want out of it, when a particular song harmonizes.

Jenny: When you say "narrow down a story" do you mean plot? Or mood?

Lani: It can be anything. I'll hear a line from a song that works and think of a plot point, but mostly, it's tone. It keeps me on track during those early days when I tend to be all over the place.

Krissie: Yes on tone. Mood, tone, whatever.

Lani: It also really helps me when I'm feeling the story sag, to add new songs and cut old ones that aren't working. As I get to know my book better, the soundtrack changes. It's kind of an evolving, living thing.

Jenny: Do you pick songs for individual scenes, or for the book as a whole?

Krissie: I get plot points out of lyrics. Sometimes it will clarify characterization. Certain songs will really crystallize who a character is. Which got weird when I went through a spell of mainly listening to j-rock. No words that I knew. Not even fuckin' sale.

Lani: Can be either. I'll pick some songs to represent a character, a scene, a setting, a moment. It depends. I always pick a "credit roll" song, that happy ending song that keeps me connected to the happy ending I'm shooting for.

Krissie: Oh, I love that idea. I've had it happen, of course. But never consciously. There was a fleetwood Mac song for the end of my first series romance. "Back in the Highlife Again" or "Roll with it" by Stevie Windwood. That looks wrong. Oh, Winwood.

Jenny: I tend to do character themes. If I can find a song my character connects to, it helps me get into her head.

Lani: Music often plays a huge role in your books. I remember all the Dusty Springfield.

Jenny: Yeah, Dusty was huge in Welcome to Tempation because their mother had played Dusty all the time, so it was a connector.

Krissie: And Fleetwood Mac in Crazy for You.

Jenny: That was character again, it was what Nick used to seduce his dates.

Krissie: It's really nice when a character can connect to music. Mine often do. I finish a draft and I often turn something up and dance.

Lani: I finish a draft and fall face-first into my desk. But that's just me. I had characters dance to a Sam Cooke song that I had in my soundtrack; that was a fun scene.

Krissie: Must have been "You Send Me."

Jenny: Terri Clark has a great song called "Easy on the Eyes" that goes "Easy on the eyes, hard on the heart," and "if you told me some lies it would be like old times," but the music is peppy and irresistible. I used that for Cash in Lavender's Blue

.

Krissie: I had characters fuck to Sexual Healing .

Jenny: Oh, good, actually using a song in a scene. Let's talk about that. What characters in what books to what songs and why?

Krissie: The heroine was doing a good job resisting the hero until "Sexual Healing" came on. Then she was lost.

Lani: The music is huge for discovery. I build a soundtrack and listen to it while doing the dishes, the laundry, knitting, driving… anything I can do kind of on auto-pilot. I make sure to think of the book while listening to it, and then the soundtrack bonds with the book, and any time I hear those songs – boom, back in that world.

Krissie: Let's take turns to make it easier on Jenny.

Jenny: Let's pick a topic to make it easier on Jenny. Discovery, character themes, actually using the music in a scene, and whole story themes. Does that sound good?

Krissie: Sure. I just told you how using a song in a scene worked for me. I had my 1930s couple dance to "I Can't Get Started" (great song).

Jenny: Which book?

Krissie: But the "Sexual Healing" drove the action (so to speak).

Jenny: WHICH BOOK?

Krissie: HOUSEBOUND.

Jenny: Thank you. Do you want to start with Discovery since that comes first? Then move to characters which is a more focused kind of discovery?

Lani: Sure, that sounds good.

Krissie: In my romantic suspense there isn't much time to listen to music. The heroine might think in terms of a song but they seldom get to turn on the radio. . . Sorry, I was already typing that. I'll be good.

Jenny: LOL.

Krissie: You want me on discovery?

Jenny: So you use the music to build the world, Lani? Absolutely, Krissie.

Krissie: I'll wait.

Lani: Songs have an incredibly strong associative power. When I was in college, I took a sound design course where the teacher told us we couldn't use familiar songs. The idea was, if it was a very popular, overused song, people would already have associations with it, and it would muddy your soundtrack.

Jenny: Oh, yeah, I agree with that.

Lani: So, using that, I pick one or two songs I know, but not too well. They can't already have associations. Then I listen to Pandora for the kinds of songs I'm looking for, and when I stumble across one that's right, I buy it on iTunes and add it in.

Jenny: I use the iTunes Genius picks the same way.

Krissie: And yet I find a bunch of my music from soundtracks. Particularly those songs that play toward the end of a TV show. It's usually reflecting some emotion that strikes a chord with what I'm writing.

Jenny: TV shows can be great for that. Joss Whedon was good at picking not-well-known artists and songs. That's how I first found Michelle Branch.

Lani: Anyway, by using unfamiliar songs, I can "stick" them to the book easier, and then if I listen to it when I'm in Discovery or writing, it connects with the book world, and brings me right back in. The Carmina Burana is a great piece of music, but it's so overused that it can only work ironically now. You have to be careful about what you use.

Jenny: The key for me is that the music puts me back in the book. But I'd never thought about the importance of unfamiliar songs for building a brand new world.

Lani: Anyway, now, whenever I hear a song from a soundtrack I've used – boom, back in that world. I never re-use music, either; if something belongs to a particular book, then its power is already used up. So I need to find fresh music each time.

Jenny: Yeah, Dusty always puts me back in WTT. Well, the Dusty songs I used there. I used her for D&G, too, but different songs. I recycle some. But never for characters, only for a particular mood for a particular kind of scene.

Lani: I used "Lady Magic" by Ben Taylor for D&G, and now it brings me right back whenever I hear it. I kind of love that. Shopping in a store and a song comes on, and you're back in that space. It's like visiting with an old friend.

Jenny: That always makes me think of Daisy in D&G, too.

Krissie: Hmmm. I reuse songs. I probably shouldn't. But when you're writing a series it just makes sense.

Jenny: I recycle some. But never for characters, only for a particular mood for a particular kind of scene.

Krissie: Yes, recycle for mood.

Lani: No, you should do what works for you.

Jenny: Well, use again for a series, absolutely, Krissie. I'm reusing stuff through the four Liz books. But that's the same world and the same characters.

Lani: Same world, same characters, you're good. Krissie, you have a separate group of songs for sex scenes, right?

Krissie: Yes I most certainly do.

Jenny: Don't we all?

Lani: I don't. I have songs for that book, and that's it. New sexy song for a new sexy book.

Krissie: The funny thing is, one of my favorites is completely embarrasing. But it does it for me.

Jenny: OOOOOH, TELL US.

Lani: Oh, I know that one. You played it for me on the ride to Columbus.

Krissie: No, not "Closer," Though I do love that one.

Lani: Oh. Well, what's the embarrassing one?

Krissie: "Closer" is the one that says "you let me penetrate you, you let me violate you … let me fuck you like an animal … your sex I can smell … you bring me closer to god." That's NOT the embarrassing one.

Jenny: Oh, good.

Krissie: It's "Music of Passion" by Yanni. [hiding head in shame]

Jenny: Oh, THAT kind of embarrassing. Hey, my go-to song is from Sugababes. I'm not judging.

Krissie: But "Music of Passion" is soaring and lyrical. I use the Sugababes song too. You told me about it.

Lani: Yanni? Well… you know, if it works for you. Have no shame. Okay… I'm gonna go listen…

Jenny: I didn't tell you about Yanni.

Krissie: It moves. It starts slow, and then it builds, and then falls back … Got the right dynamic.

Jenny: Must have been Lani with the secret Yanni stash. Like porn, only not.

Krissie: You or Lani did. We brainstormed sex soundtracks once. No, not the Yanni, the Sugababes song.

Jenny: Oh, yeah, I'm responsible for Sugababes. I remember that sex-song brainstorming session. As I remember, you both laughed at my picks.

Lani: I have no secret Yanni stash. I'm listening to it now, though.

Krissie: It just works.

Lani: I love iTunes. Hey, if it works, that's awesome. And you know, it's not bad.

Jenny: Ooooh. I'll listen, too.

Lani: It's "Reflections of Passion."

Krissie: It's romantic sex. Not raunchy sex. Because good sex is both romantic and raunchy or maybe great sex. Good sex can be either.

Jenny: (listening to Yanni) You know, that's not the way my characters have sex. I wouldn't have picked it for yours, either, Krissie.

Krissie: My characters have sex all sorts of ways. Usually by the end of the book they make love instead of fuck, and then the song works. Earlier on "Closer" is closer.

Jenny: Yeah, the Yanni song builds, but I keep seeing Ariel with the sea splashing against her rock. I think I need something with a heavier beat. More pounding.

Krissie: I think it came out before Ariel. But yeah, Yanni is an embarrassment. But I connect it with sex.

Lani: Which Sugababes song? I'm fascinated by the sex soundtrack.

Krissie: "Too Lost in You."

Jenny: Lani, you don't have sex scene soundtracks?

Lani: Nope; my soundtracks are for the book. I might have a song that represents the sex, but I don't separate it out, and I don't reuse. But that's just me.

Krissie: Oh, "Night in My Veins" is a great one too (the Pretenders). Very Spike and Buffy.

Jenny: "Hallelujah" is another one for me. I know, weird. But it's incredibly hot. "Layla." Especially the acoustic. "Concrete and Clay."

Krissie: Jesus. "Hallelujah"'s a weeper. Can't imagine that for sex.

Jenny: Slow intense sex? I can.

Krissie: I'm trying to remember the FM song that's great for sex.

Jenny: He did a song about oral sex that's hot, too. Hang on. "Light As the Breeze."

Lani: Leonard Cohen?

Jenny: Yep.

Lani: Yes, "Light as the Breeze." That's sexy.

Krissie: That didn't do it for me.

Jenny: Although I love KD Lang's version of "Hallelujah" more, it's not as hot.

Krissie: Interesting how we all react so differently to music.

Jenny: It is.

Lani: Well, it's very individual.

Jenny: I think it's reflective of how different our books are. What we're drawn to as the juice of the story.

Lani: You have to find what works for you, what gets you in the zone of the book.

Krissie: Indeed. And what can stimulate the story

Jenny: The thing that says, "THIS is my story," is the same thing that says, "And THIS is the song." In fact, sometimes the song says it first. Tell Me Lies was essentially a novelization of "Thunder Road." Funny how some of that stays with you long after the book is done. That's when you know it was really powerful for you.

Lani: And you really have to listen to a lot of music, and wait for that, "That's it!" moment. Once you assemble a handful of those, you're set.

Jenny: "Some of Your Lovin" and "I Only Want To Be With You" are Welcome to Tempation songs forever.

Lani: "Wreck of the Day" by Anna Nalick is A Little Ray of Sunshine for me. Brings me right back.

Jenny: Yes. I use the music more specifically, too. Like songs that become connectors for people. "Hallelujah" for Liz and Vince. "Birdhouse in Your Soul" for Liz and Peri.

Lani: Yeah, you do. I remember you using "She" by Elvis Costello in Bet Me. You use music as very strong references within a story. Oh, and you used "What Love Can Do" by John Hiatt in Wild Ride. You really do that a lot.

Krissie: I started long ago with soundtracks. Made one for Night of the Phantom (1991) with a cassette mix.

Jenny: Wow, you were an early soundtracker. Yeah, I like using music in a scene.

Krissie: That's because I was (and am) a music junkie.

Lani: Oh! Cassette mix tapes! I remember those!

Jenny: Music characterizes. It's like the places your characters live, or the animals they have, or the friendships they make.

Lani: It really does. I don't use it specifically as often, though. I always worry that if the reader doesn't know the song, it'll throw her out. For me, the music is all about reaching that tone, accessing the things that I love most about the book.

Jenny: Sometimes music just sticks to a book because of character and tone. There are three Pink Martini songs in Liz.

Krissie: Sometimes my songs are obvious and direct, sometimes they're more subtle. For instance, for Night of the Phantom (available in Anne Stuart's Out of Print Gems or whatever they call it) I used "Music of the Night" from Phantom of the Opera and "Beauty and the Beast" from Stevie Nicks (before the movie of B&B came out). Other times it's just a line or the mood of the song.

Jenny: Overall tone then? Not individual moments?

Krissie: Individual moments as well.

Lani: Sometimes it's individual moments. But for me, I use the soundtrack to keep my eye on the big picture. I can get lost in the moments as I'm writing; the soundtrack helps keep me grounded.

Krissie: Like in Housebound.

Lani: Soundtrack is for character, backstory, setting, mood. If there's a song for individual moments (like Sam Cooke's "Nothing Can Change My Love For You" in Crazy in Love) it's pretty rare for me.

Jenny: For me, it's mostly about the moment. I use the music to arc the character, too. Liz drives into town to "Bigger Windows" but she leaves to "Don't Hold Me Down."

Krissie: Oh, it wasn't "You Send Me?" Good for you.

Jenny: Oh, the lesser-known song. That's such a good point.

Lani: Nope, wasn't "You Send Me." I love Sam Cooke, and that's good, but not my favorite.

Jenny: Also, too famous, right? Sam Cooke is the best.

Lani: A song that's too well-known carries too much weight on it. "Carmina Burana," "Stairway to Heaven," "Born in the U.S.A." They're muddy songs, soundtrack-wise.

Krissie: I'm just remembering. Back in 1984, I had a sound track for Against the Wind. With the obvious song, plus a lot of Bruce Cockburn's Stealing Fire CD. In fact, lemme tell you a story. I was trying to decide what to write. Should I work on something I knew would bring me money, or should I drop everything and write one more Ice book for free. And I got in the car, turned on the radio and "Lovers in a Dangerous Time" came on. I shrieked with glee. You don't often get such an obvious answer from the universe. I use a lot of Warren Zevon, of course. For mercenaries and desperate people.

Jenny: I love it when that happens. Leap and the song will appear.

Krissie: You know, I don't agree with you, Lani.

Lani: About what?

Krissie: If a song means something to you, like "Against the Wind," then it works, whether it's obvious or not. Same with "You Send Me." Of course, the question is, do you name it or just hear it in your own head.

Jenny: I like the idea of kind of muddy songs. But if I have strong associations with a song, though, I can't use it.

Lani: Right, for you. If it's not already overused for you, and it still carries power, then it's fine.

Krissie: I more often hear the songs but don't name them. Jenny names them.

Jenny: I'll never use "I Only Want To Be With You" again. It's muddy with WTT. Or maybe "tagged" is a better word. Tagged with WTT.

Krissie: Yeah, my association with ATW is my book.

Lani: For me, some songs are too strongly associated with other things in my life, and I can't use them. So, for soundtracks, it's really about what works for you. For me, muddy songs carry other associations into my book, and that screws with me.

Krissie: Hmmm. Interesting. Don't know if that happens with me.

Jenny: Same with names. Somebody on Argh suggested I call the You Again hero Adam. And it's a good name but I can't. It's too strongly tagged. I think music is the same way.

Krissie: Oh, so true with names.

Lani: I had a soundtrack for A Little Night Magic, which I was writing during my divorce. At a certain point, those songs became more about my divorce, and I had to do a whole new soundtrack. That's what I'm talking about.

Krissie: I can see that happening.

Jenny: Right. The tag has to be to the story, not to anything else. Although I suppose you can re-tag.

Lani: And well-known songs tend to bring those associations. If those associations work for your book, that's fine, but it's a danger. At least for me. I need new songs for a new book. You can re-tag; that's what happened to my original ALNM soundtrack. But it takes a lot of persistence and effort, and I'm too lazy to re-tag a song.

Krissie: I love satellite radio for hearing new songs that get my brain going. I've picked up so much new stuff from Sirius.

Jenny: I tend to get my new stuff from the genius recommendations in iTunes and from TV and movies.

Lani: Krissie, absolutely. Satellite radio, Pandora, iTunes Genius – it's wonderful how much access we have to new stuff.

Jenny: I've done key word searches in iTunes. That's always interesting. "Ghost."

Krissie: I listen to a couple of the diverse channels, the Spectrum and the Loft. I hear great stuff that can stimulate all sorts of plot and charcter ideas.

Lani: But I don't listen to regular radio anymore, so I really depend on Pandora to find me new stuff.

Krissie: Though it's hard to write down the name with I'm watching the road.

Jenny: I wrote down a bunch of stuff on an envelope on the way back from NJ. Then I couldn't read the envelope.

Lani: Voice recordings. If I'm driving, I use my iPhone to record a voice memo.

Krissie: iTunes Genius doesn't work for me because my taste is too broad. Same with Pandora. I listen to it for enjoyment (and they had an interesting Angel channel when I didn't hav e iTunes on this computer) but they aren't as diverse.

Jenny: And now iTunes Genius thinks I like Yanni.

Krissie: Heh heh heh.

Lani: Well, maybe you will like Yanni. And mimes. That'll learn you to tease Krissie.

Jenny: You have to say this for her: she doesn't allow public opinion to sway her. Yanni and mimes.

Krissie: You betcha. I have no shame.

Jenny: It's interesting that as a story drifts and changes as you write it, the music has to change. I thought Liz was going to drive out of town to the same song she drove in on. But the book changed.

Lani: I love that she enters and leaves on two different songs. It's a nice way of using music to get something across.

Jenny: I think so, too. They're similar, but the focus is a little different. She's angry driving in and thoughtful but happy driving out.

Lani: Diversity is really key; getting to songs that can access all the corners of your book. It's a wonderful way to use music to tell the story.

Krissie: I've been lazy with soundtracks recently, since I've been writing series books.I think I need to do more books specific one instead of recycling.

Lani: I sometimes scour soundtracks that already exist. The soundtrack from 10 Things I Hate About You was good for the current book, and the song lists from Grey's Anatomy work really well when I'm looking for something more emotional. Grey's Anatomy song lists from the individual episodes get me a lot of music.

Krissie: Grey's Anatomy has some great stuff.

Jenny: Life had some great music, but then they changed it for the DVD. Soundtracks help me so much. Well music in general helps when I get tense, but when I really get blocked, playing those songs and seeing the scenes they go with in my head really opens things up.

Lani: It helps for me to have a creative hobby I know really well – like knitting socks – to keep my active brain occupied while I listen. Soundtracks are great for discovering while doing chores like dishes and laundry, too.

Krissie: Here's a question — do you actually listen to the soundtracks while you write? With words?

Jenny: If it's a song that's playing during the scene, yes. Just listening to the whole soundtrack of the book, no.

Lani: Yes, I listen to the songs while I write. Not always, and less now than before, but I usually do.

Jenny: That thinking-through-the-book time is when the soundtrack really helps.

Lani: I listen to the soundtrack over and over while I write, just shuffle it and repeat.

Krissie: Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. As you know I'm addicted to High Focus so I switch over to that if I'm getting distracted.

Lani: I use High Focus, too! On occasion, when I'm really having trouble, I use that. I need something to block out the rest of the world, though, so I can go into my own space to write.

Jenny: I usually write in silence. I need to hear the words in my head. But if the music is actually in the scene, then it helps. It's been helpful in the series, too, because when I find a song that's going to be good in the later books, I put it in that books playlist. It's another way of note-keeping for the sequels.

Lani: The soundtrack is my crutch the whole way through. And when I need new energy, usually about halfway through, I weed a little and add a little, and it really helps.

Krissie: I'll tell you one danger of soundtracks. I used Richard Thompson for Nightfall almost exclusively. For other things as well. And I react so strongly to his music, so powerfully, that I wonder whether my emotional reaction to a scene I write is because I hear the music, and that the scene isn't really that powerhouse a scene. I just sort of vibrate to RT, like to a tuning fork. He's MY music.

Lani: Hmm, I've never worried about that before. Will now, though. Thanks.

Krissie: No, I don't think it's true, Lani. I just worry.

Jenny: Whoa. I hadn't thought of that. Wait a minute. I don't have anything called High Focus. What is it?

Lani: It's a concentration audio by Kelly Howell/Brain Sync.

Krissie: I swear by High Focus. God, I love it. It's supposed to get your brain waves moving in a certain way. At worst, it's white noise that helps you concentrate.

Lani: It's basically white noise, but it helps separate me from the rest of the world. Of course, my world is full of kids, so there's a reason I need to separate.

Krissie: I've also found some other creative/concentration stuff on the internet that I like. My creative brain just clicks in when I put it on. I've probably been using it 15 years.

Lani: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there that work with certain brain waves, and I'm not sure I buy it, but white noise/relaxation/classical music helps when I just need to clear my brain.

Jenny: It's ten bucks on iTunes, but if you both like it, I'll bite.

Krissie: Yup. Whether you buy the brain waves thing, at least it's white noise.

Jenny: Ten bucks for white noise? I'll pretend I believe in the brain waves.

Lani: It's white noise that does voodoo to your brain waves.

Krissie: I use Increase Creativity too. I listen to them on a loop. You know how fast I write, and I use High Focus. Try it.

Jenny: Yes, ma'am, I will try it. Now tell me about the way you've used music in one specific book.

Krissie: Okay, On Thin Ice. It was years since I'd done an Ice book so I had a lot of new stuff. I used to hate "Roland the Headless Thompson Drummer," but that song worked for On Thin Ice, since my hero is part mercenary. I listened to (don't judge) "Sober" by Kelly clarkson, a great strong, mournful song, for my strong heroine. "Windows are Rolled Down" by Amos Lee was movement. I used a bit of Tom Waits, the obvious "I Hope That I Don't Fall in Love With You," and "Hold on." Never used him before, but he fit with my world-weary hero. Tom Waits when he was world-weary, Richard Thompson when he was cynical.

Jenny: I was going to say, that's a dark soundtrack, but that makes sense.

Krissie: You remember what I write, don't you?

Jenny: I never thought of looking at a soundtrack as a compilation, but that really nails your book. Do you use mostly male artists since your books are so male-centric?

Krissie: I had Katy Perry and "Fireworks," definitely my heroine.

Jenny: Oh, "Fireworks" is a departure. That's very positive and cheerleader-y.

Krissie: My heroine's a powerhouse.

Jenny: Good theme for her, then. There's an innocence to that song. It's very youthful. It's too young and optimistic for anything I'd write.

Krissie: One of my darkest, sexiest books, Into the Fire, (which is brilliant and much under-apreciated) was written listening to Sarah McLachlan. That's even where the title came from. That and J-rock. "Fireworks" had the right mood, the exuberance I needed for a certain part in the book as Beth was coming into her own, claiming herself.

Jenny: So it fits the character of your heroine. Young and optimistic. You like young heroines usually, don't you?

Krissie: No, it fit her journey. Late twenties/early thirties usually.

Jenny: It's a virginal song, if you will.

Krissie: My heroines tend to be emotional virgins. "Everybody's got to Learn Sometimes" (the Beck version) is also key to that book. The mournful tone of it. But we have to end with triumph. And there's humor. You need songs that reflect the humor in a book. Or I do, since you noticed how dark my soundtrack was.

Lani: What songs did you use for humor in On Thin Ice?

Krissie: I'm looking. Hold on. "Chaiyya Chaiyaa." And Van Morrison's "Sense of Wonder."

Lani: Oh, neat. I love Van Morrison. Used him in The Comeback Kiss.

Krissie: Not funny songs, but fit a funny mood. Plus Richard Thompson is hysterical in a very dark way. Plus Warren Zevon's funny. "Lawyer's Guns and Money?" Perfect. "Chaiyya Chaiyaa" is from The Inside Man (the Clive Owen movie) though there are lots of versions. It's Indian.

Lani: I've never thought of Richard Thompson as funny. I go to Jason Mraz and the Barenaked Ladies for funny. It's great, a really fun energy.

Jenny: I love "Lawyers Guns and Money." You need a few light songs to balance the dark. Like I need intense songs to balance the light.

Krissie: Yup.

Lani: Yeah, me, too – finding the intensity is always a thing for me. Although now I'm listening to Richard Thompson on Pandora and I see what Krissie's talking about.

Krissie: So that's what I used for On Thin Ice. For historicals it's a little different (neither of you write them, of course)

Jenny: How is it different for historicals?

Lani: Do you use period music?

Krissie: A bit. I've got a great cd of Georgian Regency dance music which I listened to when I wrote a dance scene. Give me a second and I'll find my soundtrack. I've got some opera, I've got "Not Pretty Enough" by Kasey Chambers which you hated but is sooo my heroines and sooo not yours.

Jenny: Me or Lani?

Krissie: You. I also listen to Immediate Music, which sounds like soundtracks. Apparently they do music for trailers. I don't use hard rock for historicals. I'll use a lot of Celtic music.

Jenny: Not hard rock for your rakes? I thought that would be an obvious tie, but too much of an anachronism probably.

Krissie: Oh, there's a great one that really clarified a hero. It's "Golden Golden" by Silly Wizard, and it's about being afraid to fall in love (of course).

Jenny: That's your hero.

Lani: There you go.

Krissie: The words and the music really clarified my somewhat muddy hero, and I was just listening to the song for fun.

Jenny: I think that's the key to music and writing: the clarification.

Lani: The music kind of fills in the edges.

Jenny: Pulls you back to the center of the character and the scene.

Krissie: "Golden Golden" is a new song. There are a lot of Celtic musicians who write new stuff that I've used, like the Cranberries, and October Project. I use those. It's such a joy when you find a song that does that. I find that I can waste time though, looking too hard for the right song and never being able to find it.

Jenny: But finding the right music is like being handed a lifeline to the story. Lani, how about you? Tell us about the soundtrack for a book you did.

Lani: I had one song by Eric Hutchinson, "You Don't Have to Believe Me," that became the theme for A Little Night Magic.

Krissie: You know such different music than I do, Lani.

Jenny: Love that. It's kind of the non-musical theme of the book, too.

Lani: There was the literal reading of, "No one's going to believe this," along with that bouncy element that was just Liv's personality, from top to bottom. Then I was watching Private Practice, and a Katie Costello song came on, and I discovered her, and she was the bulk of the soundtrack from there. Really quirky and interesting and vulnerable; love her.

Jenny: I will have to check her out. So specifics. Tie the music to the book. You don't do character themes, you said.

Lani: I do character work with it. But mostly it's tone, mood, emotional moments. There's a song by Missy Higgins, "Unbroken," which is this very defiant, you-will-not-keep-me-down song that was great for when Liv picked up from her dark moment and decided to keep fighting. I also have a song by Jill Scott, "Hate On Me," which was Davina's theme song, since she'll do what she has to do and to hell with anyone in her way.

Jenny: What's the love theme? Don't you usually have a love theme?

Lani: I'm looking through my list… hang on…

Jenny: Krissie, do you have specifics tied to scenes in the book that you want to talk about?

Krissie: Not really. My books tend to be divided into acts, and songs for for certain acts. Like "Hold on Hope" from the Scrubs soundtrack and "How to Save a Life" were for the trip down the mountain. The period at the mission was mournful music. The boat more upbeat, the period ins spain action music. They didn't have Yanni sex but then they didn't have Nine Inch Nails sex. There's was more Chris Isak Wicked Games sex. And Sugababes sex.

Lani: I don't think I had any one particular love theme; I had a few songs that represented that relationship. "Isn't it Lovely" by Katie Costello, "Smile" by Uncle Kracker, "Stupid for You," by Marie Digby.

Jenny: I'm all over the place on the soundtrack, but I think mine is more about relationships than anything else.

Krissie: Examples?

Jenny: There's a pair of Pink Martini songs for Liz and Cash that'll be in the next book: "And Then You're Gone" and "And Now I'm Back."

Krissie: Great titles.

Jenny: They're light in tone which is what I need or Cash just becomes a jerk and you don't see what Liz sees in him.

Krissie: Are they meant to reflect each other (to Pink Martini, that is)

Jenny: I think they were. But they're perfect for Liz and Cash, very upbeat and funny, no real emotion there.

Lani: What do you have in your soundtrack for Liz? Is there a love theme for her and Vince?

Jenny When she's with Vince the different times, it's Elvis's "Such a Night" and "Hallelujah" and the fallback Sugababes. I don't have a single love theme for them yet, but I will.

Krissie: Dare I say it, but I don't care about Liz and Cash, I care about Liz and Vince.

Jenny: Yeah, I know, but Liz has to get by Cash before she gets to Vince. And Cash is really central to all four books. He was her first great love so he has to be on the page and he has to be there in contract to Vince, as a foil.

Lani: Well, if she needs to make that connection to Cash, then she needs it in her soundtrack. Otherwise, he becomes cardboard, and he's a big thing for Liz.

Jenny: It's that curse of the Old Boyfriend. If he's awful, she's an idiot. If he's immature and she's grown past him, then it's understandable. And the Pink Martini songs sell that.

Krissie: Oh, I think one can be blinded by hormones.

Lani: Or if they're just not right for each other.

Jenny: They were right for each other fifteen years ago. Pink Martini is frothy. They did the Coupling theme song and I love that. But I like characters choosing their own music within the story, too, because that characterizes them.

Krissie: I like that idea too. I'm going to work on that. Having a theme song for my characters. My trickster hero is so different from the other angels and yet I haven't given him his own music. I've just been falling back on my angel soundtrack. I see fun work in my near future.

Jenny: Like Liz says she's not getting married until she finds a guy who will let her have "My Life Would Suck Without You" as a wedding march, which means not only that he can't take a wedding ceremony too seriously, he can't take his music too seriously.

Lani: There you go.

Jenny: And she has "Birdhouse In Your Soul" as her iPhone ring, so that's what she ends up teaching Peri when they're stuck outside the bar. (Peri's 12). And then later on, Peri makes up her own words to "Birdhouse" and sings them back, and Liz gets her a blue canary nightlight. So it's all character. I think Liz's theme is "Don't Hold Me Down" although that seems a little on the nose. Oh, and at the third turning point when she's pretty much lost everything, I play CeeLo's "Fuck You." I love that song.

Lani: I need to freshen up the soundtrack every now and again.

Krissie: It's one of those things I worry about — that I'm just trying to avoid writing. I don't trust non-word-producing work. Stupid, I know, but I'm stuck in that rut that only new words count. Revisions sort of count, but not really.

Lani: Yeah, no matter how good the work is that I'm doing, if I'm not producing actual new words, I always feel like a fraud. That's why I'm usually in a good mood when I'm that phase of it.

Jenny: I find that more stuff like this I do, the easier it is later to get back into the book. It's been interesting doing this soundtrack because I keep finding music that I have to move to later books. So I'm keeping the whole four book arc in my head musically because it has to be cohesive.

Lani: I think Lily Allen is going to be the music for Stacy.

Jenny: Oh, she's perfect for Stacy. Terri Clark has been really good for Liz.

Lani: Okay, now I'm listening to Cee-lo. Stacy's gonna need that, too. Boy, I'm glad we did this!

Jenny: LOL. CeeLo is good for EVERYTHING. Anybody got anything else to say about soundtracks? We need a closing line before we move on to collage.

Krissie: God bless iTunes.

Lucy March's A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin's Press on January 31, 2012.



Kristina Douglas's Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.



Jenny Crusie's You Again and Lavender's Blue will be out from St. Martin's Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody's guess.

Pinteresting Idea

So Mollie, who is a genius, emailed me and said, "Are you on Pinterest?" And I was because Lani and inkgrrl had harassed me until I joined. I was pretty much just sticking stuff up there without a plan, but Mollie said, "You should put up a board for Liz."

Now that was interesting: A board to stick pictures on that inspired me for Lavender's Blue. I told her to give me twenty-four hours and then I'd get back to her, and I've been working on it for about an hour now, and I'm liking it. It doesn't replace collage for me, but boy howdy does it give a picture of the book. The only problem is, I can't find where I found some of my pictures. So I'm hoping if I post them in this blog post, I can put them on the Lavender's Blue Pinterest board. Because really? This is easy brainstorming and a great way to get into Liz's world.

For example, this is Liz. She's blonder than this and she's wearing the sunglasses Molly gave her, but this is Liz. Great book cover potential, too.

And this is the Your Name Here Bear:

And the Easy Bear:

Here's the bridesmaid's dress Liz says is going to make everybody look like a float in the Rose Bowl parade (all the bridesmaids are stacked, so those flowers are going to be . . . prominent).

And of course, Veronica:

Okay, enough about me. If you're hesitant to collage, you can definitely pin. Pinterest: for collage-aphobics everywhere.

Edited to add: It worked! I can pin from the blog. Here's the Lavender's Blue Pinterest Board.

BEST COVER EVER!

Brace yourselves . . .

Mollie says the title means "Kissed By All the Good Spirits."

Rant: Leave Paula Deen Alone

I've had it with Anthony Bourdain. Yes, he's funny and he's a terrific writer, but he's also an ill-informed hypocritical jerk. My least favorite comment from him was on Twitter:

"Thinking of getting into the leg-breaking business, so I can profitably sell crutches later."

Yes, Paula Deen clearly deliberately developed diabetes so she could sell drugs. Oh, wait, you didn't know she had diabetes and was fronting for a drug company? Okay, let's start over.

Paula Deen is the queen of Southern cooking, a woman who never met a fat she didn't immediately sprinkle sugar on, the author of the recipe for deep-fried butter (no joke, you add cream cheese to the stick). She is also diabetic, something she found out two years ago and failed to tell anyone. Why? Because it was nobody's damn business but hers.

Oh, but critics say, barely concealing their glee at her butter-and-cream downfall, she's been dishonest since she's still doing high-fat cooking without apology. She got diabetes because of the way she cooks, so it's criminal for her to keep slinging out those high fat recipes, let alone shill for the Big Pharma company she's just signed up with. She's dangerous and unethical and money-grubbing and . . . and . . . she cooks with too much fat! Or as Tamara Dietrich of the Daily Press put it:

Celebrity cook Paula "I Love Butter" Deen just announced she was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes. The real news? What a shocker it wasn't. Slap enough hamburgers, fried eggs and bacon between two glazed doughnuts, call the monstrosity "The Lady Brunch Burger," and sooner or later it'll catch up with you. Sort of like a coronary. Or karma.

Except being overweight does not cause diabetes. No, really, it doesn't, look at the medical research. Most overweight people do not develop diabetes. Some very slender people do. In fact, research shows that while fat does not cause diabetes, diabetes may cause fat because of something called a thrifty gene. So some people out there could eat Paula Deen recipes twenty-four-seven and never ever develop diabetes. They're probably going to stroke out or die of a heart attack because that food is not healthy for you, but they're not going to get diabetes because of Paula's hamburger-between-two-Krispy-Kreme entrees. (This is also why you shouldn't imply to diabetics that if they'd eaten better in the past, they wouldn't be diabetic now. Trust me as a newly diagosed diabetic, it only makes us want to kill you and bury you in butter fat.)

Also, and I could be wrong here because I've never watched Paula Deen (although full disclosure, I bought her toaster), I don't think she ever held up her Twinkie Pie and said, "This is health food." Unless people have been living under rocks, they already know that high fat food is bad for them. And yet we eat french fries instead of baked potatoes, gulp down milkshakes instead of ice water, and head straight for the chocolate cake instead of the nice piece of fruit your mother wants you to eat. We do it because those things taste good, because they're comfort foods, and if we do it too much, they become uncomfortable foods, so we shouldn't do it too much, but that doesn't mean Steak N Shake is evil and irresponsible even if every person who works there is diabetic. It's about choice. We get to choose. I choose to avoid the deep fried butter, but I don't think my aversion to it means that nobody should have access to it. And I don't think the fact that I can't eat most of Paula Deen's cooking (and now she can't either) means that it's wrong for her to tell people how to make it.

But mostly, I'm appalled at the glee with which people are piling on Deen with headlines like "Paula Deen's Big Fat Secret." We've already covered the inaccuracy–you don't get diabetes because you're fat–but take it beyond that to the part where people are exulting over the fact that this woman, who as far as I can see is a pleasant, fun-to-watch, nice person who's never taken to Twitter to make fun of anybody, has just been diagnosed with a incurable disease that could have major complications down the road for her. If she'd been diagnosed with arthritis or cancer or been hit by a truck, people would sympathize. But because she wields a stick of a butter like a baton, people are rolling in the fact that she has a serious illness. There's a sense of superiority there that is as distasteful as it is misplaced since I seriously doubt that all of the people snarking at her have given up fat, sugar, and alcohol and can therefore stand on the high ground and throw whole-grain spitballs at her.

Especially since diet does not cause diabetes.

Which brings us back to Bourdain, who eats anything he wants (as well he should), drinks like a fish, and has had in the past a self-confessed serious hard drug problem. Why this icon of do-anything-he-damn-well-pleases (and again, good for him) has decided that it's okay to trash Deen for her high fat recipes strikes me more as elitism and paternalism than it does honest, well-thought-out criticism. If we're going to be punished for dietary indiscretions in the past, Bourdain is due for some serious medical jail time, although not diabetes because diabetes is not caused by diet. The hypocrisy is troubling but not as much as the reason for it: Paula Deen is a happy, middle-class, over-weight, middle-aged woman who has no claim to culinary arts. The woman deep fries butter, for Christ's sake, of course a food snob like Bourdain is going to sneer at her. But taking advantage of her medical condition to gloat is just being a lousy human being, and unfortunately he's got a lot of company.

Of course, what Bourdain's really mad about is that Deen is taking a big pay off from a drug company to promote a diabetes drug. She's making hay off a bad harvest by monetizing her condition. And since she has a fervent fan base who will buy anything she slaps her name on, pushing a diabetes drug is exploiting humanity. Or something. But what if this drug is the best thing to ever happen to diabetes and she's getting it to people faster? Even if it's just a drug that's given her really good results, that's a reason to recommend it to people. So in that case, is he trashing her because she's making money from the recommendation? No celebrity endorsements? If it's not a good or necessary drug, and Deen knows it, then yeah, she's slime, but I haven't seen any discussion of that at all, nobody's even looking at the drug. (For the record, it's been used for awhile, it seems to be effective, and it's useful as an alternative for those who cannot use the very popular and effective Byetta.) Instead, they're saying, "Paula Deen tells people to cook with fat and that's why she has diabetes and now they're going to get diabetes and then she'll make money because they'll buy the drug she recommends."

First, fat does not cause diabetes.

Second, people have free will, they get to choose what they cook and what they buy.

Third, there is no reason why she shouldn't make money from a celebrity endorsement. Hell, if I could turn a profit on my diabetes, I would.

Fourth, people should stop being so damn pious about food. It's food. Yes, it has a big impact on your health, but so does exercise and environment and heredity and the randomness of the universe which means you could get hit by a bus the next time you step off a curb. So you look both ways before you cross, and you don't eat Twinkie Pie for breakfast every day, but you don't get smug about it and you sure as hell don't use food piety to beat up on a woman who is dealing with an incurable disease with grace, humor, and a keen eye for the bottom line.

Leave Paula Deen alone. Fat does not cause diabetes.

Thank God My Friends Don't Gloat

Susan Elizabeth Phillips just cleaned out her office and sent me a picture of it to show that she is once again superior to me in every way. I love her, but I fail to understand why she thinks a clean office is a good thing. She's never going to find a rough draft on there that she suddenly knows how to fix because she lost it at exactly the right time. She's never going to have everything she wants right under her fingertips (and elbows and keyboards) because she's put it all away. She's never going to have the delight of finding a half-eaten Snickers bar just when she needs it most. Really, is there any point in working in a place like this?

I think not.

Over on Re-Fab . . .

Cross-Post Note: One of the many benefits of ReFab is that I don't do personal whines here on Argh any more. OTOH, you are my people, and as Lani said when I waited to give her some information about what was happening in my life, "YOU TELL PEOPLE THESE THINGS." So there's a whine over on ReFab, which is also where I'll continue to talk about stuff like health and houses and shampoo so as to keep Argh safe for posts about couches and obscene inns and–what was that other thing? Right–books. You can go anywhere you want in the comments, but I'm restricting my post whining to ReFab. Feel free to ignore the Very Bad Weekend post. It's not very interesting.

Coming tomorrow on Argh: Susan Elizabeth Phillips gloats about her clean office once again. Other people send me pictures of their grandchildren, but not Susan . . .

I Want This Couch

This couch. I want it.

And this one, too:

I need more fun in my furniture. I need some funiture.

The Three-Goddesses Chat: Heroes

This is the fourth in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Lucy and Jenny tend to write heroine-centered books (heroine as protagonist) like Lucy's newest book, A Little Night Magic, in stores on January 31, while Krissie tends to go for hero-centered books, as in new series about fallen angels, The Fallen (Raziel, Demon, and Warrior, out in April 2012). So once again we got together in our Three Goddesses chat room to talk about what we know about heroines, heroes, and protagonists in general. Today's topic: Heroes.

Lani: Heroes. What's essential in a hero? You know, a lot of the same things I look for in a heroine. I want him to be smart, brave, have a sense of humor.

Jenny: Smart, strong, vulnerable, sense of humor.

Lani: Flawed. Vulnerable. I think there are certain things that just apply to characters in general.

Jenny: I like a hero who's not looking for a relationship so the heroine can blindside him. So independent, too.

Lani: But for a hero, I really need him to be strong. I like the idea of a guy who can hold his own against a really strong heroine.

Jenny And I love a smart-mouthed hero who can hold his own with a smart-mouthed heroine. Nick and Nora. Walter and Hildy.

Lani: Absolutely.

Jenny: Confident but not arrogant. Doing good work at whatever he does. Competent.

Lani: Absolutely, competent. I love smart, too. That matters a lot to me.

Krissie: Agree with all that.

Jenny: Goals of his own, not just there to follow the heroine around. Good in bed. Sue me, I'm superficial.

Lani: And I like sensitive to a certain degree, which is where I think I vary from you and Krissie. You like your guys a little harder-edged, I think.

Krissie: My heroes seem to have a little more community than my heroines have. Which is interesting.

Jenny: Well, they're sensitive underneath.

Lani: Good in bed is not superficial. Although everyone needs a little schooling when you're in a new pair….

Krissie: Oh definitely good in bed. the equivalent of the glittery hooha.

Jenny: A little higher and to the left. The glittery WHOA-oh. Never mind.

Krissie: chuckle

Lani: Right. Even with people who are good, you need a little training, because everyone's different. So I like a hero who can take direction.

Jenny: Especially one who asks for directions.

Lani: As long as he's not constantly asking. "Is this it? Is this it?" Not attractive. I like a hero who lets the heroine be strong, too. Who doesn't feel intimidated by what makes her incredible.

Krissie: Vulnerability is interesting. Tricky to show it in a stone cold killer. Or someone who's determined to be a villain, like the hero in To Love a Dark Lord, which just came out in e-form. But you do see vulnerability, in the music he plays.

Lani: Oh, god, I love To Love a Dark Lord. That book was so good.

Krissie: Smooch. It was definitely one of my best.

Lani: But he was really vulnerable, when it came down to it. His determination to sidestep that vulnerability highlights it beautifully.

Krissie: He's so bad.

[I took us off course here by talking about the sex in Lavender's Blue because I was having troubles with it. So there's a chunk of discussion missing here because I cut that out. But then I made a point I wanted to make about heroes right after that, so I left that part in. Vince is the hero in Lavender's Blue.

Also you should know about this part because we refer to it later:

Krissie: Did you know they let me get away with an inn in the Rohan books called The Cock and Swallow? heh heh heh.

Jenny: LOLOL!

Lani: The Cock and Swallow!

Jenny: Only in a Stuart.

Krissie:

My editor didn't notice until it was too late.

Jenny LOL again. I'm dying here.

Lani: Your editor didn't see it?

Jenny: I know. Cracks me up. Who could have missed that?

And now back to the chat.]

Lani: So, Krissie, tell us about your hero in Warrior.

Jenny: Wait a minute, one more thing about Vince. The problem is, there are a million characters in here because it's mystery (suspects!) and Vince at the moment is just The Cop. So I have to characterize him in some visual, concrete way. Liz has a passion for diners. Vince, she finds out, lives in an old diner he's rehabbed. That really turns her on. I think the places heroes live say a lot about them.

Lani: I love that.

Krissie: Oh, he lives in an old diner? That is fabulous!

Jenny: So I think if the hero is not the protagonist, you end up doing with him what Krissie does with her heroines, defining him in relationship to the heroine. Liz loves diners, Vince lives in an old diner.

Lani: I know, I love that it turns her on. Liz's relationship with food is orgasmic. Her description of the burger vs. the sex pretty much says everything about her.

Jenny: Liz hates liars, Vince never lies. Liz is tired of taking care of everybody, Vince is the cop who takes care of the town. The hero kind of develops in the heroine's wake.

Lani: Right. That makes sense. The protagonist is the anchor, and everything else flows around that.

Jenny: Who he is turns her on, including the place he's living. He kind of is that diner.

Lani: Yeah, I think that's true. And a great way of developing that character.

Jenny: So Krissie. Heroes? They're your protagonists.

Krissie: In the latest Angel book the Archangel Michael is trying to lead the Fallen in a fight against the bad armies. He's a bit of a martinet — he looks a little like Paul Bettany in Legion – buzzed hair. Lots of tattoos that moves around his body. He never bonds with any women, he refuses to drink blood. He sleeps in what looks like a monk's cell, on a narrow bed. He denies himself everything. And then he's told he had to marry the princess in the tower . . .

Jenny: I'm seeing angry sex coming up.

Krissie: . . . who's kept there by an evil witch.

Jenny: Love that.

Krissie: There's so much sex in this book my editor asked me to cut one scene. Sigh.

Lani: LOL, wow. Does your editor know you?

Jenny: If this is the editor who missed Cock and Swallow, she may not be the best judge.

Krissie: No, different editor. But the sex really moves and changes. It starts straightforward. then becomes more involved, angrier, emotional …

Lani: You really don't pull any punches when it comes to the angry sex, or the emotion.

Krissie: The final love scene has him drinking her blood. The final connection. The ultimate bond. Usually neither of my characters really want to have sex, but they can't help it. So there's a lot of anger there. Neither of them want that connection. So they're drawn to each other but hate that fact. They think it will lead to their destruction.

Jenny: Lani's characters always want to have sex. There must be something wrong with her.

Krissie: Really?

Lani: I love that irresistible pull. Just not in courtyards.

Krissie: When didn't they have sex in the courtyard? Oh, Dogs and Goddesses. Okay, just no courtyards. So my heroes usually have a mission. And the heroines either get in the way of the mission or become a tool in the mission. And then eventually a partner in the mission. It's the arc, like in sex. Conflict. My heroes often tend to kill people — I don't know what that says about me.

Jenny: You know exactly what that says about you.

Krissie: I write Men Who Kill and Women Who Love Them.

Jenny: So your protagonist hero has to have a mission. What else does he need?

Krissie: They can be brutal, very practical, unsentimental. They've got a very dark sense of humor. Often more than the heroine. But then, she's way out of her depth so it's hard to find things amusing.

Jenny: Your heroes are always very powerful. Dukes and archangels and such.

Krissie: Jo Beverley and I argue about honor. She thinks a hero should be honorable. I think a hero makes his own code, and sticks to it. It might not be anyone else's idea of honor, but it works for the hero.

Jenny: (typing at the same time) I think he should have his own code. I don't think it has to match other people's ideas of honorable. Oh, there you go. GMTA.

Lani: I agree about a hero having his own code.

Krissie: And of course you need to make sure the reader accepts it.

Jenny: Right. Which depends a lot on the charm of the hero. How much the reader admires him on the page. I dealt with that with the con man hero.

Krissie: Yes. Some are charming, like Killoran in To Love a Dark Lord. Some are a little grim, like Michael. Some are in between.

Jenny: Plus it gives you a really good arc. Like Moist in Going Postal. Once he realizes what he's done to people, his own code demands that he make amends.

Krissie: Yes, my heroes are always The Tallest Man in the Room.

Lani: A neat idea; The Tallest Man in the Room.

Jenny: A good trait in a hero.

Krissie: Though occasionally they can seem ordinary, like Peter in Cold as Ice. He's a gray ghost when she first meets him. Totally forgettable. But that was part of his stock in trade. what an odd phrase. never thought of it before.

Jenny: I was going to say, the real Peter isn't forgettable, that's his mask. The Scarlet Pimpernel.

Krissie: Yes. God, I love masquerade scenarios. And trickster heroes. Just adore them. Much more interesting than a hero who is what he seems.

Jenny: Well, sometimes. Sometimes the hero who is what he seems is just what the heroine needs.

Krissie: Yup, Michael is pretty much what he seems, but with a softer core. He's strong and powerful, but she's a match for him.

Lani: I like a hero who is what he is, but I can appreciate the trickster, too. Depends on the story.

Jenny: If the rest of her life is chaos, the strong guy standing quietly in the middle of the storm is a good, good thing. I think again, for me, it depends on the heroine.

Krissie: My Cain (in Rebel) is a trickster. So is Killoran in To Love a Dark Lord.

Lani: Yeah, and there's something incredibly romantic about the calm guy you can put your back up against. But again, that's for us who define our heroes through our heroine.

Jenny: So Krissie would reverse engineer.

Lani: Krissie, you define your heroines through your heroes; Jen and I do it the other way around.

Krissie: Absolutely! The title character in The High Sheriff of Huntingdon is interesting, because a charming trickster hero who really is what he seems to be. And vice versa.

Lani: So for Krissie, the hero can't just be the strong guy in the middle of her storm, he has to be the storm.

Jenny: I loved that novella.

Krissie: In On Thin Ice I actually started with the heroine. I knew who the hero was — part of the Committee, and I knew he'd develop as I wrote. But the heroine was the interesting one. Why was she down in South America, doing what she was doing?

Jenny: That's interesting. You started with the heroine.

Krissie: What her past was, why she reacted as she did. I loved that heroine.

Jenny: So what this comes down to, then, is that you start with your protagonist and the love interest develops from that?

Krissie: Absolutely. I think.

Jenny: So really, developing a heroine and hero aren't that different for you?

Krissie: Hold on, let me cogitate.

Jenny: Sure.

(twiddles thumbs)

(whistles)

(does crossword)

(gets out vibrator)

Krissie: No, it always seems to start with characters. Sometimes it's the situation they're in, but it's still the protagonist which makes sense. Characters are the most important aspect of fiction.

Jenny: Absolutely.

Lani: Well, I think that's how we all do it, isn't it? Jenny and I start with heroines, and Krissie usually starts with heroes, but one is the main protagonist, and the other is built around that.

Jenny: I guess I always thought your process must be different because you're hero-centric, but it isn't.

Krissie:

No, they're not that different. because some of my books are heroine centered . I think On Thin Ice might be heroine-centric.

Lani: Right, but a protagonist is a protagonist; they're essentially built in the same way.

Jenny: It's still who powers the book, and then what kind of character could kneecap that protagonist with blind passion and never-ending love? So it's function that determines how the characters are built? Lani, does that work for you?

Lani: I think so. One drives the plot, that's who you start with. But the building process is pretty much the same.

Jenny: Around the character who has the motivational fuel to drive the plot.

Krissie: The Devil's Waltz was heroine-centered as well. So was Ice Storm (about Isobel). Luscious heroes, but it was more the heroine's story. In fact, Warrior might be a little more about Tory than Michael.

Jenny: She's the one with the most to lose?

Krissie: They both have their lives to lose. But she starts with nothing and gains everything. He starts at a better place so it seems more about her.

Jenny: Good call on making her the protagonist.

Lani: But he's the one who's driving the action, though, right? He's pursuing her?

Jenny: He's the one with the goal?

Krissie: He helps her escape. And pursuing … well, she's driving the action by running.

Jenny: But it's her desire to escape, it's her goal, that drives the plot?

Lani: I thought he was going after her to pursue the prophecy, which makes it seem like it's his story. But if she's trying to escape and he's her means, maybe not.

Krissie: And then they both driving the action because they're both on the run.

Jenny: Both stories are possible, but you have to choose one to be dominant.

Krissie: It becomes love and cherish Tory (as well as save the world) I think her goal is stronger. His goal has always been to lead the army of the Fallen.

Jenny: Okay. Big goal.

Lani: Well, there's a close run between primary and secondary protagonist. Sometimes, if they're both driving the plot, it comes down to who has more to lose. Who has more at stake.

Jenny: Or who the reader cares more about.

Krissie: Tory wants freedom, life, love, everything she's been denied, and she'll fight for it. Tory has more to lose. Michael is a soldier who know death is part of his job description

Jenny: Sounds like a Bob Mayer hero. I always loved those heroes.

Krissie: Love Bob's heroes.

Lani: They're great heroes.

Krissie: In Warrior it's hard to say who the reader cares more about. Michael is gorgeous, of course, and tied up in knots.

Jenny: At The Cock and Swallow?

Krissie: Tory helps untangle those knots, making him vulnerable, which he's never been in his existence.

Jenny: Sorry. I'm having trouble letting go of that one.

Lani: Well, it's a big one.

Jenny: You didn't say that. In front of Krissie?

Lani: It's low-hanging fruit.

Jenny STOP THAT. Jesus, the visuals. LANI, TELL US ABOUT YOUR HEROES.

Lani: Besides, it doesn't matter what I say. Krissie will find a way to make it sexual. It's part of the fun of being around Krissie.

Krissie: No one realized, many moons ago, when I wrote a book called Museum Piece, that it had three meanings. About the museum piece being stolen, about it being a piece (book) set in a museum, and that the heroine who worked there was a piece of ass. When I told my editor she blanched. I'm so hard on editors.

Jenny: Blanched. Good word. I just giggled.

Lani: LOL.

Krissie: It is a great word, isn't it? I love words.

Jenny: It's like Beavette and Buttheadia in here. LANI, YOUR HEROES.

Lani: And which are you? You keep going back to The Cock and Swallow. Don't pretend you're better than us.

Jenny: I used to go to The Cock and Swallow. Now I do crafts.

Lani: Well, you gotta sublimate somehow. Okay. My heroes. My heroes tend to be strong beta types. Dependable. Smart. Funny. I like the strong man in the middle of the heroine's chaos, helping to guide her through.

Jenny: You do like beta heroes. And Krissie likes alphas. I like snarkas.

Lani: I do. That strong, sensitive guy you can put your back up against. I find that incredibly romantic. Especially because my heroines are usually in such chaos.

Jenny: Protagonists in chaos are a good thing.

Lani: I did write one hero-centered book, The Comeback Kiss, with Finn. I loved Finn. A former bird-thief trying to grow up and do the right thing, and of course it all goes south on him. But mostly, it's heroine-centered. What I liked about Tobias in A Little Night Magic was how he was that strong, silent type.

Jenny: He really is. You can count on Tobias. I love that in a hero.

Lani: He would make personal sacrifices for the greater good, for Liv. She loved him loudly – with proclamations – and he loved her through his actions. I loved that he expressed himself through what he did, not what he said. He wasn't a talky guy.

Jenny: There's something about that guy who's there when you need him. Remember Freddie in Cotillion? Talk about a beta, but boy was he there whenever Kitty needed him. I loved it that Tobias fed her. That's huge. Luke pouring coffee for Lorelei.

Krissie: Well, hell, we all love a hero who tells a plump heroine to eat more and hates when they lose weight. Epic female fantasy.

Lani: That's how I usually write my heroes. I'm stepping out of that comfort zone now, with the new book, but for most of my books, it's the strong, there-when-you-need-him guy. Yes, I love that he fed her. Liv had such a complex about her weight, and he just said, "Shut up and eat."

Jenny: Well, wait a minute. Cain may be a reluctant hero, but if he sees a problem, he's there.

Lani: Oh, no, Cain's different in that he's a little more chaotic than my typical hero. He's still there when you need him. I liked that about Tobias, too. He was badass in a lot of ways, a very dangerous guy, but very controlled, and he didn't need to show off for Liv. He let her be powerful, too.

Krissie: I like a hero you can depend on, a hero who can rescue you, even though you end up rescuing yourself. One who can grin at you over the pile of bodies you both dispatched.

Jenny: Different worlds. Lani wants a hero who smiles at her over pancakes and Krissie wants a hero who smiles at her over corpses.

Krissie: LOL! So true.

Lani: And both are good.

Jenny: Yeah, the buried badass. That's always seductive in a hero. "I'm calm now, but you wouldn't like me angry." NOT said to the heroine.

Lani: It's funny, considering the kind of stuff I write, how much I love Krissie's books. I think it's because she does stuff I don't do, and she does it so well. It's really fun for me. Cain's a little more trouble than most of my guys. And Stacy's a little more trouble than most of my heroines. It's fun watching them come together.

Krissie: We can be drawn to the stuff we don't write. Like I adore Susan Elizabeth Phillips (not to mention you two). I do not write like SEP.

Lani: Right. But there's some fun in looking at what you do and thinking, "How might I do something like that?" It's such a different take on a hero, and I love it. It's really got me thinking, now that I'm writing a more chaotic guy.

Krissie: My heroes are so extreme that it's always useful to considering using just a dash of them in one's heroes. They're a little too intense for most people.

Jenny: I think the big thing in writing heroes (or heroines if your books are hero-centric) is "Is this a guy I want Our Girl to end up with?" Because I think readers take ownership of the protagonist.

Krissie: Absolutely.

Jenny: So if the heroine needs a beta, they're going to want a beta, and if she needs an alpha, they're going to want the alpha. I think that's what happens in those books where the heroine has to choose between two heroes. There has to be one who's inevitable, given who the heroine is.

Lani: Right. It's nice to mix it up a bit, and to get what your heroine (or hero) needs.

Krissie: Yes. it's good if your alpha can have a beta side. and vice versa. Do you consider your heroes betas, Jenny?

Lani: Jenny's are quiet alphas, I think.

Jenny: I'm not sure what mine are.

Lani: Your heroes are in charge, but they're not interested in being showy about it, I think.

Jenny: I gave Vince a dicey past and an anger problem, so he may be veering toward alpha, especially since he controls the town. But somebody like Phin was pretty beta.

Krissie Yes. though in general that's not a trope (hate that word) that I'm fond of.

Jenny: I think they're repressed more than quiet. Lotta anger in those guys. It goes nicely with the anger in my heroines.

Krissie: Now I was gonna say Phin was Alpha. So was Davey. But a mix. Not a swaggering alpha.I really like anger in heroes. Smoldering, repressed anger. Turns me on for some reason.

Lani: I didn't see Phin as beta. How do you guys define beta and alpha? Is alpha about being dangerous? How do you see it?

Jenny: I think alpha and beta may be too reductive a way to look at heroes. It's like the madonna-whore dichotomy for heroines.

Krissie: Yes, it is, isn't it?

Lani: You know, I think you're right. I don't find it a really useful distinction. But it's what we've been working with in romance for a long time, so you kind of look at it and say, "I guess… beta?"

Krissie: And then you throw in the gamma hero … Whatever gamma is.

Lani I've never understood the gamma hero really well.

Jenny: Gamma: "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP if that's okay with you and doesn't violate your personal space." No, that doesn't work for me, either.

Lani: LOL.

Jenny: I don't think the alpha/beta thing is really accurate or useful.. I think my heroes are more complex than that, and I think yours are too.

Lani: I think so, too.

Krissie: God, I hope all our heroes are.

Jenny: Yeah, that "your" meant "Krissie and Lani."

Krissie: Alison Hart writes consistently gentle heroes that I adore. I like a hero who can tell you he's going to kill you but still be incredibly gentle when you fall apart (Finn in On Thin Ice).

Jenny: See, I'm still tripping over the "I'm going to kill you" part. I think that would be a deal-breaker for my heroines.

Krissie: I don't really mean that. It's "if you don't get your ass in gear and get down this mountain and the bad guys catch up with us then I'll toss you into the river." threats that he may or may not mean (he doesn't mean them) But he's a hardass who can be very gentle. I like that combination. When my heroine falls apart at the death of people she loved he pulls her into his arms and comforts her. And then never mentions it.

Jenny: You know really, at the end of the day, what we want in our heroes is what turns us on. Krissie wants danger, Lani wants a safe harbor, and I want somebody who can meet me head-on. I mean we all want all three, but our points of dick-and-awe are different.

Krissie: Yes. but in the end, we all react to each other's heroes with lust. Because we're all such good writers. And incredibly cool to boot. The writer can make it work, whether it's our fantasy or not.

Jenny: Is that because there's a little bit of all three in all of them? So we can find what we need in them all?

Krissie: I think so. The reader brings so much to a book, it's really a collaboration.

Jenny: It absolutely is. There were readers who didn't like Phin because they thought he was abusive. Just not their fantasy at all.

Lani: They thought Phin was abusive? Wow. I need to read that book again.

Jenny: He was a jerk in places.

Lani: The collaboration thing is true in general. There are people who are your reader, and people who are not. And that's okay; if you appeal to everyone, your fiction is watered down.

Krissie: I think a well-rounded hero has to be a jerk in places. because, after all, he's a man

Jenny: But a well-rounded heroine doesn't? Is it a male thing?

Lani: Well, everyone's an asshole sometimes. And who wants a perfect hero?

Krissie: Actually Sharon and Tom Curtis could write perfect heroes. But they're the only ones. And I guess they were flawed. They just seemed like golden princes to me.

Lani: But for me, stalking is a trigger. So if I read a stalker hero, it's going to bug me. But millions loved Twilight, because their definition of stalker isn't as strict as mine, especially because Bella loved it. So, it's just a matter of being a match to your reader, and people who are not your reader can find another great author who is.

Jenny: Yes.

Krissie: You should download Lightning That Lingers. It holds up.

Jenny: Okay, we're talking about writing our heroes. I'm over here herding ducks again. How would you sum up what we've learned from this, Dorothys?

Lani: I think that character's character, and what you want is a strong character, be it hero or heroine.

Krissie: There's no place like home?

Jenny: Click your heels three times and the perfect hero will appear.

Krissie: And you want your hero and heroine linked. Magic hooha or whatever. They complete each other, whether they like it or not, though it can take a while (usually the length of the book) for them to realize it.

Jenny: The irrevocable pull of the soulmate, no matter how unlikely. Thus the, "Oh, hell, not you" trope. Which none of us appear to be working with this time.

Lani: I love the idea of the love interest being the one that fits perfectly with the protagonist, flaws and all.

Jenny: But the protagonist has to gain enough self-knowledge to realize that. Character arc as an echo of relationship arc.

Lani: Right. It takes the situation, the problem of the story, to bond them together.

Krissie: Damn, I let the word "trope" out of Pandora's box.

Jenny: And now it's dancing all over the place.

Lani: I like the word "trope."

Krissie: Oh, I'm doing Oh-hell-not-you. I think I pretty much always do.

Lani: I don't, but I've got a variation on it now with the new book.

Krissie: I think we did good work here.

Jenny: Me, too. Although we talked a lot about sex. Maybe we need to do a chat on just on that. Coming soon:

Or maybe not.

Lucy March's A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin's Press on January 31, 2012.



Kristina Douglas's Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.



Jenny Crusie's You Again and Lavender's Blue will be out from St. Martin's Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody's guess.

Next week: Story Discovery Using Soundtracks and Collage.

Nerd Wars: Tournament Four

For those of you who knit or crochet [those who don't can stop reading now, sorry, read the Heroes post instead] and want another thing on your to-do list, I offer Nerd Wars on Ravelry. The brainchild of Raveler Eyeamelise, Nerd Wars is "A tournament of geekiness . . . a friendly crafting competition among different kinds of nerds." The tournaments last three months, with six new challenges each month testing your crafting imagination in six categories: Giving Geeks (charity work), Intellectual, Scientific, Technical, Nerd Culture, and Team Spirit. You can join a team or work as a freelance Ninja, but either way it's a perfect storm of geek fandom with yarn lust. If you love The Big Bang Theory, there's Team Bazinga. If you love Bones and NCIS, there's Team Squints. If you're a vampire-addict, there's Team Bite Me. If you're a Discworld fan, there's Team UU. There's also Team Hellmouth, Team Impala (Supernatural), Team Browncoats (Firefly), Team Pineapple (Psyche), Team One More Page (series stories), Team 1-Up (video games), Team Braaaaaains (zombies) . . . as I said, twenty-one teams, although by the time the new list goes up some of those might be gone and new ones added. Why I am mentioning this now? Tournament Four sign-up is today, January 15th. You can play any time as a free-lance Ninja–they're a very open-minded group–but if you want to play in a specific nerdery, go list your top three choices now. New tournament starts Feb. 1. If you've read this far, you're probably a knitter or crocheter, so you'd be making stuff anyway. Might as well knit a sonic screw driver cover (Team Tardis) or a jewelry pouch for The One Ring (Team Precious).

Nerd Wars. Because you like to make things with yarn and you've never really grown up.

The Three-Goddesses Chat: Heroines

This is the third in a series of Three Goddess Chats, brought to you by Krissie (aka Anne Stuart and Kristina Douglas), Lucy (Lucy March aka Lani Diane Rich), and Jenny (Jenny Crusie), who meet in a chat-room called ThreeGoddesses to talk about everything. Lucy and Jenny tend to write heroine-centered books (heroine as protagonist) like Lucy's newest book, A Little Night Magic, in stores on January 31, while Krissie tends to go for hero-centered books, as in new series about fallen angels, The Fallen (Raziel, Demon, and Warrior, out in April 2012). So once again we got together in our Three Goddesses chat room to talk about what we know about heroines, heroes, and protagonists in general. First up: Heroines.

Jenny: What do you think is essential in a heroine?

Krissie: Hmmm. Heroines need to have an inner strength. Can't be a dishrag. They need a certain bravery in facing life without being foolhardy or TSTL.

Jenny: Mine have to have a good sense of humor. They may be doing everything wrong, but they know how to cope with the world with humor. That's really important to me because I think it's a sign of emotional health.

Krissie: For my heroines, I need a certain amount of vulnerability as well. Some people think I go overboard with that, but it mirrors my own, and it's what I identify with. I think if you're vulnerable then being brave is even more of a risk.

Lani: For me, the heroine needs to be someone I want to spend time with. Usually, that means smart, funny, and with some variety of flaws or weaknesses that make her interesting. Depends on the story what those might be. I think all protagonists need vulnerability.

Jenny: So smart, vulnerable, fun to be with, good sense of humor? I think you're right on the vulnerability. That's what makes us attach to them, I think.

Krissie: And brave. Not just brave enough to face the villains, but brave enough to face the hero.

Lani: And brave enough to face herself. It's fun to give the heroine something to arc from, so that when she transforms, we're rooting for her.

Jenny: Pro-active. Not waiting to be rescued.

Lani: I like an active heroine; someone who's willing to go after what she wants, instead of being reactive and passive.

Krissie: Oh, yes. She's got to be able to rescue herself or at least work with the hero to rescue her.

Jenny: Flawed so she can grow, then.

Lani: Right; characters interest me in general via their flaws.

Krissie: Flaws are interesting. I may respond to their yearnings. What they secretly long for and think they can't have.

Jenny: I think there has to be a kind of charm to their personalities, too. Something larger than life.

Krissie: Yes, charm is good. But charm is an interesting trait. My current hero is charming, which is very dangerous. Charm can be deceptive. I'm charming, but deeply flawed.

Jenny: Maybe charm isn't what I mean. She has to be interesting. Not just because of what's happening to her but because of how she reacts and handles it.

Krissie: Yes, interesting. She has to have something that people respond to.

Lani: I love an awkward heroine; one who hasn't quite grown into herself yet. The core is there, but she needs to grow into it. I'm a sucker for growth, for a transformation story. I love those.

Jenny: Absolutely. That character arc is key.

Krissie: And warmth, maybe. I think people tend to respond to smart, brave, vulnerable people.

Jenny: Who make mistakes.

Krissie: Amen.

Jenny: I think she has to have gotten herself into the mess she's in. No getting hit by a plot bus.

Lani: I think a certain level of kindness is necessary. Maybe not kindness, but fairness; she can be a bitch, but not to people who don't deserve it.

Jenny: Yes. She has to be mentally healthy, which means no bullying, no making fun of people, etc.

Krissie: Mistakes are interesting. They're really interesting and necessary, but if they're too major I can't read a book. If the heroine has screwed things up so badly it can make me a little crazy.

Jenny: Right. Not learning is not attractive. I watched Morning Glory again last night. She screws up her relationship three times, but each time she goes back and says, "I screwed this up." And it's never the same mistake.

Lani: I think mistakes are great, but you have to understand why they do it, and yes – that they're not making the same mistake over and over again. A fumbling heroine can be fun and charming.

Krissie: Anyway, heroines who keep misunderstanding and making the same stupid mistakes drive me crazy. I like a heroine who betrays the hero at some point, and vice versa.

Jenny: I don't think I can do the betrayal thing. Betraying somebody you love is a huge red flag for me.

Krissie: Well, by betrayal I mean thinking the worst of the hero. Rejecting him instead of waiting to hear his side of the story. You'd write that, wouldn't you? Your heroines get righteously pissed and just turn off. That's a kind of betrayal to me.

Jenny: Isn't that a Big Misunderstanding?

Lani: In an early part of a story, as part of an arc, if it demonstrates her inability to trust, I see it less as a betrayal and more as a mistake, which is part of the arc.

Jenny: I don't know.

Lani: I think cold betrayal is a kind of tough sell.

Jenny: I do understand not telling the hero everything in the beginning. He's a stranger. Especially if he's given her reason not to trust him.

Lani: It's part of being the person she used to be, instead of the better, stronger person she's going to become.

Krissie: My favorite betrayal is in Nine Coaches Waiting. The heroine is hiding out with the endangered kid, and she hears the hero (son of the bad guy) calling for her and she doesn't say anything. If it was just her she would have gone to him, but she couldn't risk the kid. And the hero accepts that. The readers accept it.

Jenny: I accepted that. I think trust is part of the relationship arc, but she's not being snitty, she's protecting somebody.

Lani: I think stuff like that is forgivable early in the story, before she's learned what she needs to learn. I think betrayal is a strong word for it; she just doesn't trust him yet, and she makes a choice.

Jenny: Yeah, it's not like she said, "He's in the attic."

Lani: Betrayal is when you have someone's trust, and you break that trust. Tough to write in a heroine.

Jenny: Absolutely.

Krissie: In romantic suspense, you quite often think the hero is one of the bad guys. And a frequent Dark Moment is when she goes with the real bad guy, not trusting the hero and even given the real bad guy important information. Happens a lot in romantic suspense. Might even be a key element.

Jenny: Yes. You're right, Krissie. The Gothic is about being surrounded by men you can't trust, the whole patriarchy thing. And there's a strong Gothic element to everything you do.

Lani: Although in the third act, going with the bad guy instead of the hero… that might be betrayal.

Krissie: No, I'm talking 3/4 through the book and being manipulated into believing the hero is the bad guy out to kill her. And instead she'll tell the bad cop or bad spy where the hero is, thinking she's saving the world even though it breaks her heart.

Lani: I think in certain contexts, that can absolutely work. But it bugs me, I have to admit. At a certain point, I want them working together.

Krissie: Well, you know, I'm basically a gothic writer.

Lani: But you write such wonderful conflict in your romances, Krissie, and I've seen you do that and make it work.

Jenny: I think if she doesn't trust the hero 3/4 in, the relationship isn't working. (Duh.) By the halfway point in my stuff, I need them working together so that the reader sees that the relationship will last. Plus it makes the bond stronger.

Krissie: Whereas for me if they're working together well then the story is pretty much over. I write really tormented relationships.

Lani: Well, when Buffy stakes Angel at the end of Season 2, it breaks her heart, but it's what she has to do. That kind of choice is heartbreaking for her as well as him, and can be incredibly powerful.

Jenny: Yes, but Buffy isn't making a mistake. She has to do that. It's not that she doesn't trust Angel when he comes back, she does. It's a sacrifice, not a betrayal.

Krissie: Okay, I write betrayal, you guys don't. But I write harder-edged books. Most of my heroes are killers. None of your heroes are.

Jenny: Shane was a killer. Vince in Lavender's Blue was once a sniper.

Krissie: Oh, of course. But you know, they were sort of Bob's characters. I was thinking of your books in particular. But you're right.

Krissie: And yes on the Buffy scene. That's perfect.

Jenny: It's really not about the hero being a killer. It's about the heroine making the mistake. If she knows he's a killer and that makes her not trust him completely, that's not a betrayal or a mistake, that's being smart.

Lani: Well, with Buffy, it's not betrayal; she's forced to choose between her love and The Right Thing. That can be very powerful. Depends on how you define betrayal.

Krissie: But wouldn't Angel have considered it a betrayal until he finds out why she did it?

Jenny: That's not the point. The point is, did she betray him? And she didn't. So the reader doesn't think, "You, bitch!" She thinks, "Jesus, what a terrible choice, but you had to do it, Buffy." It's not about what the hero thinks. It's about what the reader thinks.

Krissie: Maybe I mean something that could look like betrayal to the hero. There needs to be a dark moment, a point where you think the hero and heroine can never get together.

Lani: Yes, I think so. It's making your heroine choose between two things she really wants, and that was incredibly powerful. And it is betrayal, actually; I take back what I said before. It's just justified. It's not petty betrayal. I think if the person I loved killed me, I 'd see it as betrayal, even if it was to save the world.

Jenny: If the reader thinks it's a sacrifice, she'll mourn with the heroine. If she thinks it's a betrayal, she'll cut the heroine loose. I did that with Cordelia. What she did was just too much a betrayal of Angel.

Lani: No, but betrayal is breaking the trust someone has in you. Angel trusted Buffy completely. And had no idea what the hell was going on. So, yes, I think there's a way to write betrayal that doesn't make someone a bad guy, especially if it hurts her as much as it hurts him.

Jenny: I still don't see it as betrayal.

Krissie: That's okay, let's move on.

Lani: I think it gets into semantics at a certain point; what we see as betrayal or not. If betrayal is always a bad thing.

Jenny Pasted from the dictionary:

betray |biˈtrā| verb [ trans. ] be disloyal to : his friends were shocked when he betrayed them. • be disloyal to (one's country, organization, or ideology) by acting in the interests of an enemy : he could betray his country for the sake of communism. • treacherously inform an enemy of the existence or location of (a person or organization) : this group was betrayed by an informer. • treacherously reveal (secrets or information) : many of those employed by diplomats betrayed secrets and sold classified documents. • figurative reveal the presence of; be evidence of : she drew a deep breath that betrayed her indignation.

See? Not betrayal.

Lani: To be disloyal. It's disloyal to kill the man you love, even if you're doing it for a good reason. Betrayal. It's just betrayal with a really good reason.

Jenny: No, it's not disloyal if what you're doing is what he'd do, too. And you know Angel would sacrifice himself to save the world. But basically, our ideas of "betrayal" aren't the same. For Krissie, a heroine who doesn't trust the hero is betraying him, right? And for me, a heroine who doesn't trust the hero is probably being smart.

Krissie: If it's after a point where she trusted him, yes. In the beginning of course she doesn't trust him.

Lani: If he's given her a good reason not to trust him, that's his fault.

Jenny: And given that Krissie's heroes are all killers, it is not dumb not to trust them.

Krissie: Hold on — I'm gonna find my handout about heroines.

Jenny: Especially if he's started the book trying to kill her.

Krissie: So true. If you think the man you love is gonna kill you, it makes sense to take off. Which mine often do.

Lani: This is true. I think it's something that works better in the types of books that Krissie writes, whereas for me, my heroines trust my heroes pretty early on. I like the working-together dynamic, that's fun for me.

Jenny: So it really comes down to, does the reader think she's right to still not trust, or is she rolling her eyes and saying, "oh, COME ON." And I think a guy who's tried to kill you doesn't get a lot of trust for a good space of time.

Lani: Well, he definitely has to earn that trust. But in that case, I wouldn't define it as betrayal.

Jenny: It's really the opposite of the Too Dumb To Live heroine who goes off with the serial killer. It's the Too Smart To Love heroine. And since we want our heroines to love, the question is really, at what point should she be trusting him? And that's gonna depend on the heroine, the hero, and the story.

Krissie

Absolutely on the Too Smart to Love. My Heroine Handout:

THE HEROINE: 1.HER ROLE a.IS SHE AN ANTAGONIST b.A HELPLESS VICTIM c.A VICTIM WHO FIGHTS BACK? d. A PEACEMAKER e.ORDINARY WOMAN IN EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES? f.OR AN EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN 2. HER LOOKS a. BEAUTIFUL b. PLAIN c. SOME DEFECT – i. TOO TALL …

Jenny: That's interesting. That's all heroine as defined by hero which makes sense since you write hero-centered books.

Krissie: Yup. Well, in the handout I started with the hero and this mirrored it.

Jenny: Mine would be something like, What does she want? What does she need? What is she afraid of? That kind of thing.

Krissie: And that's crucial, excellent stuff. Necessary.

Jenny: Because the "Is she an antagonist" in my stories would be an automatic "no" because she's the protagonist. But in your stories, the hero is the protagonist, so that's a damn good question.

Lani: Mine start with who she is. What are her strengths? What are her weaknesses? What really matters to her? Where is she vulnerable?

Krissie: I was talking about Dark Contemporaries, which for me are very much hero-centered most of the time.

Jenny: Your dark contemporaries are. Twilight isn't.

Krissie: Yes, it is.

Jenny: The thing is, my heroines show up in my head and that's where I start. So a lot of this stuff comes with the package. Although usually not "What does she want?"

Lani: We haven't talked about the heroine's looks, which I think is a big thing in romantic fiction.

Jenny: I try not to describe my characters.

Lani: I tend not to; beauty isn't usually a thing, but in a lot of romantic fiction, her physical appearance is really important. It's sometimes trite to say how breathtakingly beautiful she is; I love me an awkward heroine.

Jenny: I'm not sure physical appearance is important.

Krissie: I've written the occasional beautiful heroine where the actually beauty was a flaw and a curse.

Lani: Right now, part of my current heroine's thing is that she's breathtakingly beautiful, but she doesn't value it at all, although it's the first thing other people see in her. She wears shit-kickers and men's jeans and baggy shirts. Beautiful doesn't get the rent paid.

Jenny: I think the heroine is a placeholder for a lot of readers, so I'm leery of too much description.

Krissie: I agree. And most of it is from her POV so we shouldn't hear a lot of description.

Jenny: I think if there's something in her description that affects people around her, then yeah, you have to mention it. Like Paul Newman's eyes.

Krissie: It is fun to write a classically beautiful heroine. It's really a loaded situation.

Lani: I don't describe any more than necessary, but I find that readers like to have some bit of anchoring in who the character is, physically.

Krissie: I like having one clear physical trait. I read a Judith Krantz book once, and it was interesting. It was as if she wrote her characters in heavy crayon rather than a pen — but they were very clear and vivid. Have you ever written a very beautiful heroine, Crusie? The kind men fall all over? I'm forgetting but I think you have.

Jenny: My first two, because I was still getting the hang of it. But I had the second one in her thirties and conscious she was aging. And when I write Nadine, I'm stuck with beautiful because she was gorgeous at fifteen. So I will then.

Lani: That's what happened with Stacy. She was Liv's best friend, and Liv was really conscious of her own physical awkwardness, so Stacy became a foil. Now I'm dealing with that from Stacy's POV, and it's interesting. I think that how they deal with the physical hand they were dealt tells you a lot about who they are as people, and becomes another branch of characterization.

Jenny: I'm more likely to say a heroine wears odd clothes, like Stacy, or has out of control hair, something that's reflective of character rather than biology. I'm also more likely to write a heroine who has something that drives the hero crazy. Some bounce to her step or whatever. I liked that about Andie, that North heard "Layla" whenever she walked by him.

Krissie: Did he hear the slow version or the fast version of Layla?

Jenny: He heard the fast version when he met her when they were young, but when she came back, he heard the slow.

Krissie: Ah. Lust. Yes, I love that. If something unexpected about the heroine gets him incredibly hot and bothered when he doesn't want to be.

Jenny: I love that "Oh, hell, not you" from a very rational, competent hero who just can't resist her. And it's not because she's beautiful or possibly even sexy. It's because it's her.

Krissie: Well, yeah. He can't fall in love with her nose or her hair or whatever. It's what she does with it.

Lani: The classic beauty that's just beautiful because it's the fantasy isn't that interesting to me.

Jenny: So getting that heroine on the page so the reader says, "Hell, yes, it's her, you dumbass" is really important. It makes it so much more powerful that she's not his type or whatever but there she is. And you have to get that on the page, so the reader sees it, too.

Krissie: Damn, me, too (The Oh-hell-not-you). That's one thing (among many) that I loved in Love Actually. When Hugh Grant sees the plump (ha!) secretary

Jenny: I love that, too. She's so wrong for him and yet, there she is.

Lani: Yes, she's a size six. That's Hollywood for fat girl. Oy.

Jenny: But the thing is, you can see it, too. She's just so there and you think, "Of course he's crazy about her." You have to get that on the page so the reader sees it, too. So let's get down to examples. Give me a heroine and tell me how you built her. Krissie?

Krissie: Martha. She showed up in the previous book as the Seer, the visionary, whose visions are never quite right.

Jenny: Love that. Talk about a flaw.

Krissie:I almost changed her name because Martha sounded middle aged and plump.

Jenny: Oh, I like names that work against type. I think Martha is great.

Lani: Me, too. I love unexpected names.

Krissie: But I started with her being a widow. I had to listen to the rules of the world I built. And I made her come from an abusive childhood with a prostitute mother. Where she took care of everyone.

Jenny: (typing at the same time) Plus the name "Martha" carries baggage with it, the one who takes care of everybody else. Oh. There you go.

Krissie: And now she's in Sheol and safe and she doesn't want to leave. She wants to stay safe and untouched, and then this utterly charming bad boy shows up

Jenny: Oh, I love this stuff, forced out of a safe world.

Krissie: And yes, I wrote her as a contrast to the hero, who drives the story and who's name is the title (Rebel).

Lani: Ooooh, nice. Martha and Rebel. That alone says a lot.

Jenny: Right. Normally I'd say, "Wait a minute, negative goal," but she's not the protagonist. Who's the heroine in Warrior?

Krissie: The Roman Goddess of war. I didn't want to call her Bellona because that sounded like Bologna so I called her Victoria Bellona and people called her Tory.

Jenny: My Bologna has a second name, it's Victoria. Sorry. Go on. Names are really, really important.

Krissie: It's about Michael, the archangel in charge of battle. And he's told he has to go find the Roman Goddess of War and marry her and drink her blood or they'll be killed by the Armies of Heaven. Just your usual Marriage of Convenience.

Jenny: I hate a standard plot like that, you know what's going to happen (g).

Krissie: Tory doesn't even know who she is. Which makes it interesting. But she's also basically a prisoner in a tower, and he flies her out of there so she's willing to adjust (a bit).

Jenny: Lady of Shalott. You have a ton of references here.

Lani: LOL, really. That's wonderful, how he breaks her world wide open.

Krissie: Though it takes her a while to let him drink her blood. But then, that's part of the whole arc in a vampire book.

Jenny: Well, that makes sense. It would take me awhile to let somebody drink my blood, too. Like, FOREVER.

Krissie: When to do you let them drink from you? And when do you return the favor? It's interesting.

Lani: Again, there's that trust thing. It takes a lot to trust a man who wants to drink your blood.

Jenny: This is why I'm still single. Let alone wants you to drink his. There's a limit to the fluids I'll swap.

Lani: Stick to your guns, Crusie.

Krissie: And the blood is of course a life essence. To give that, to take it into your body, is very powerful. Much more powerful than semen.

Lani: Well, yes. Although semen is pretty powerful too.

Jenny: Makes babies.

Krissie: Yes. And the swallowing part can get to be a major level of trust in a sexual arc. I use that sparingly.

Jenny: Good conflict.

Krissie: You betcha. Conflict is vital. Without conflict there's no book. In my books, it's usually the hero who's in trouble and breaks into the heroine's relatively safe but untouched life. As in untouched by the power of sex and men and love. They can come from hellish backgrounds, and usually do. Parental betrayal R Us.

Lani: The virginal heroine. That's a big thing for you, Krissie, and you do it so well.

Jenny: Intersting use of the word "hellish" in this context. Seriously. It really makes sense that these books are hero-centered; the heroes are the ones with the problems.

Krissie: Not always, of course. But more often than not, particuarly in my paranormals and contemporaries. Historicals are a bit different. Women can get into a lot more trouble in a historical. In fact, thinking back, all my heroines are in trouble in the historical. The hero, of course, makes the trouble worse before he makes it better.

Jenny: Don't they always? "I was doing just fine and then came you."

Krissie: Lots of fun.

Lani: What's the big draw of the virginal heroine for you?

Jenny: The virginal heroine gives you a massive plot arc.

Lani: Krissie, are you saying you're less likely to write a virginal heroine in a historical? Interesting; I would think it would be the other way around.

Krissie: No, I'm more likely. In the Rohan books one of the four was a virgin, though.

Lani: Oh, that makes sense. I got confused.

Krissie: Again, a lot of that comes from the rotten background that even my historical heroines have.

Jenny: So, Lucy, tell us about Liv from A Little Night Magic.

Lani: Liv was a fun character to write, because she's smart and funny but insecure and a little awkward.

Jenny: She's all of that on the first page, too. I loved her right away. And I'm a hard sell.

Lani: She's a bit overweight, and on her own; her father was never around, and her mother died a few years back. Her entire world is this small town, Nodaway Falls. So I immediately put that in danger, gave her magical powers she couldn't figure out, and made it her job to save the town.

Jenny: I love that. That she has to save her community.

Krissie: (Typing at the same time) I love that. GMTA

Jenny: And that they look to her. That's such powerful characterization, that other people depend on her.

Krissie: Oh, my yes.

Lani: I love writing small towns, and the communities that form there. The microcosm of that was Liv's three best friends, which were basically her family.

Jenny: Peach, Stacy Easter, and . . . Millie?

Lani: Yep. And when Millie gets into trouble with the magic, it ratchets everything up another notch, because Millie's so important to her.

Krissie: Not meaning to interrupt, but that's another way I write differently from you guys. My heroines seldom have a posse. They're on their own. We could talk about that later.

Jenny: That's a good point.

Lani: That's really interesting; my heroines are almost always based in community.

Jenny: Yours move from solitude to a pair bond, Krissie. Lani's start with a community and their arc is growing in strength to protect it. Liv does anyway.

Lani: Sometimes they're alone at the beginning, but they move toward community, not away. Or drawing strength from the community to do what they need to do.

Jenny: Although Liv gains a whole new supernatural community, so there's that.

Lani: In my books, the people they need are either there already or show up pretty fast. Yeah, with Liv it's a big change, from being a drab waffle-house waitress, to being the magic goddess who has to save the world.

Krissie: Yes, mine pretty much have to be alone because they're almost always woman in jeopardy.

Jenny: Mine usually start either isolated or supporting people who are dragging her down.

Krissie: Yes, they do, don't they. I love that.

Jenny: But Liv in ALNM has to start with community because that's her MacGuffin. No community, no motivation. I think it might be more than that, though. I can't imagine Liv not drawing people to her.

Lani: For Liv, that's the thing. She's about to give up her community because she can't get out of her rut, but then when it is in danger, she knows it's the most important thing to her, and that motivates her to challenge herself and win the fight. Liv's a people person, definitely.

Jenny: It isn't that she chooses to join a community, it's that who she is means a community will form around her. I think. It isn't in her character to be alone.

Krissie: That's a lovely idea. A community forming around the heroine. though not if everyone's dependent on her. They aren't, are they?

Lani: Liv's community is definitely a support. They need her to lead the charge, but they charge right along with her, which is what I love about them. She's not big on confidence, though, and she is a bit awkward, which I like. It's part of her vulnerability.

Jenny: I like her vulnerability. It never goes over into TDTL. She's in way over her head, which is another thing I like about heroines. This is not stuff they can handle as they are at the beginning. Liv's a great example of that.

Lani: I like heroines that are challenged.

Krissie: I love audio books.

Jenny: I like Sharpies. Sorry. Just wanted to contribute.

Krissie: Sharpies? the pen or smart women?

Jenny: Both.

Krissie:

I like the new ultra-fine sharpies. So nice.

Lani: So, what about you, Jenny? Liz is a great character. How'd she form?

Jenny: Wait, what about Stacy?

Krissie: Harpies are interesting too, as supporting characters.

Lani: Oh, the ultra-fine Sharpies are awesome. All sharpies are awesome.

Jenny: I'm sorry I mentioned the Sharpies. So Stacy.

Lani: So, Liz.

Jenny: I adore Stacy Easter. She's a great heroine.

Lani: Yes, she is. With a great name. Stacy Easter.

Krissie: Are you feeling vulnerable about Stacy? It's okay if you don't want to talk about her. I love what I've read, though.

Lani: I'm feeling vulnerable about the book in general. I'm sure it's the crappest thing I've ever written. Which is how I feel about every book at this stage, so… it's probably okay.

Jenny: Yeah, that's normal. It's a fabulous book, though, the stuff I've read.

Lani: Okay. So. LIZ.

Jenny: LIZ. From Lavender's Blue. Liz is tricky because she has a four-book arc.

Lani: Which I love, but yeah – that's got to be tough.

Jenny: She was fairly easy to get a voice for because it's first person, so she's using my voice.

Lani: Also – mysteries, which is an interesting new sandbox for you. Which is wonderful.

Jenny: Yeah, except I keep losing the body in the sand.

Lani: Will we get One in Vermillion? Because I really need that book, just for the title.

Krissie: Oh, god, I love that!

Jenny: Not until I've written Lavender's Blue, Rest in Pink, Peaches and Screams, and Yellow Brick Road Kill. I have a feeling that'll be it for Liz.

Krissie: Have you written first person before? It really makes a difference.

Jenny: In short stories. I gave Liz my voice because I can't do first person for long stretches in any other voice, and I gave her my home town and my antipathy for it and then I stranded her there.

Lani: Well, how is Liz working out for you as a heroine? The first-person switch is interesting. Does that change the way you approach your heroine? I love her in the hometown, the reluctant prodigal daughter.

Jenny: First person is hell for sex scenes, and it definitely changes my approach to my heroine. I'm in her head all the time, so it makes the story a lot more immediate.

Krissie: But you can't have any scenes in the hero's POV. That's limiting. Challenging.

Jenny: I like just the heroine's POV. I'm not very good at male POV which was why Bob was so great to write with. Using just the heroine's POV focuses the book. The basis for the opening is the old "Give your heroine her worst nightmare" bit. She's trapped in Burney, and it's as though fifteen years haven't passed, everybody's still expecting her to fix things for them. And her family is still insane.

Lani: A crazy family is always fun.

Jenny: She has a bunch of unresolved baggage because she left town/ran away three weeks before she graduated from high school and there are some people who are still upset about that. Plus she never really addressed the reasons she was running away.

Lani: That's wonderful; she needs to come home to grow up and face it all.

Krissie: Does she arc into accepting her home town? You haven't.

Jenny: Yes, across the four books, she accepts the home town.

Krissie: Bad insane or cute insane like Faking It?

Jenny: Both. Her mother has a bear collection. 700 of them. So there's that. And her aunt still thinks she's the anti-Christ, so there's that. And her cousin/best friend and she still haven't talked about what happened that made her leave town, so there's that. And the love of her life is marrying the wrong woman, so there's that. So a variety of insane.

Krissie: That's a lot of trouble.

Jenny: That's the first book. Part of it. She has more trouble than that.

Lani: Is Cash the love of her life? Does she still carry a torch?

Jenny: She still carries a reluctant torch. So does he.

Krissie: Ew. really?

Jenny: That arcs over the four books, too.

Lani: It's what shows you your heroine; give her as much trouble as possible and see how she handles it.

Krissie: Oh, absolutely. And keep throwing things at her. Cash sounds so gross.

Jenny: It's okay, she's got Vince the cop. The only sane person in town.

Lani: Vince is definitely a stabilizer.

Jenny: The key is to make sure that everything that happens, happens because Liz does something.

Krissie: Yup, that's major.

Lani: Keeping her active rather than reactive in an insane world.

Jenny: Right. She can't just get hit by the plot bus. The harder she pushes, the harder the antagonist pushes back. And tries to kill her.

Krissie: I really don't write women-centered books, do I?

Lani: No, you don't. But you are loved world-wide for your heroes, so I think it's working for you.

Jenny: Nope, you don't, Krissie. I think it's because you like the Gothic stuff so much, and Gothic heroines are so often victims.

Krissie: Yes, but I like challenges. Maybe I'll write a woman-centered book. But I can't with the angels since there are no women angels, which pisses off the women in the book. They're not victims, but someone's trying to victimize them. If they're victims then they're weak and need to be rescued. I need them to rescue themselves. Or willingly walk the plank if they think the hero will kill them

Jenny: I like the "I'm sick of this shit, so get out of my way" heroines who get hit with something and turn around and take out a village. I may have some issues.

Lani: Hey, better to work out your issues in fiction than actually taking out a whole city block.

Krissie: Hey, that's why we write. My therapist said that once. I took my childhood coping mechanism, telling myself stories, and turned it into a career. Where I can work out things (like parental betrayal).

Lani: Like crazy mothers. For me.

Jenny: Liz isn't angry like Agnes. (God, I loved writing Agnes.) She's angry but she's very controlled. So when she finally goes up in flames in the last act, it's cathartic. I hope.

Lani: It will be. What I've read has been amazing.

Jenny: Krissie, I agree absolutely on rescuing themselves. Although oddly enough, Liz needs help at the end.

Lani: Well, that's good. She's a loner in the beginning, so moving her from loner to community is a good thing.

Jenny: I think I'm okay with that, though, because she rescues everybody else in the damn book, so the fact that she accepts help and lets somebody else save her at the end is part of character growth. I think.

Krissie: I think the heroine has to need help. The point is, she needs to connect with someone. Accepting help is major.

Jenny: She still leaves town at the end, though. She's made her peace and made a lot of discoveries but she still leaves.

Lani: Until they draw her back.

Jenny: It takes her four books to really join the community.

Lani: I love that over the series. It's going to be amazing.

Krissie: Will the second book come out right on the heels of the first? Because readers need to know that she hasn't turned her back on that world and the hero. If there's a wait between them then you need the first chapter of the second book.

Jenny: She says she'll be back in August because that's when the fair is and the little girl she's bonded to asks her to come back for that. But she actually comes back in June because she misses Vince.

Krissie: Oh, that should cover it.

Lani: Which will be a lovely start for the next book.

Krissie: Though a teaser chapter wouldn't hurt. Or just some way to know that the story is going to continue and that it's not Liz's adventures in the wide world.

Jenny It's in the last scene that she's coming back. And yeah, the first chapter of the next book, too. The problem is that it takes me ages to write a book. So bringing them out close together probably isn't possible unless SMP holds onto the book for a couple of years.

Lani: Well, once you've got the major world-building done, which is where you are, they might come a little faster.

Jenny: Of course in the first chapter of Rest in Pink, she goes back to Vince and finds him in bed with somebody else. Which is fair because they had no understanding and she didn't tell him she was coming.

Lani: I love that.

Krissie: Well, as long as they know more is coming. It seems to me, though, that if you know your characters that well, then the next books will come faster. You're not starting from scratch. You have your internal and external conflicts already set up. You don't have to create them.

Jenny: From your mouth to God's ear, Krissie. It's been interesting looking at the repeating motifs in Liz's character throughout the four books. In the first one, she basically lives in her car and whatever hotels and motels she finds along the way. But in the second one, she's been stuck with an RV, and it's a first step in settling down. I love using physical things to characterize a heroine. She gets a dog, too. Veronica.

Krissie: LOL. Had to give her a rough one, eh?

Lani: Veronica! I'm so glad Veronica gets a book. She's such a fun dog, too.

Jenny: Veronica is neurotic as hell. Which is good for Liz.

Krissie: Yeah, but she's got a lot of attitude. She's not a cuddle bunny like Milton or Lyle.

Jenny: Well, neither is Liz. Veronica has personality.

Krissie: Indeed. I love her.

Jenny: They're good together. Same with the little girl, Peri. Not a cute, cuddly kid. Child of an alcoholic. Father's dead. She's Liz's doppelganger, so I can do a lot of stuff there.

Lani: It's going to be a fabulous series.

Jenny: God knows I've put in enough time structuring the damn thing.

Lani: Peri's awesome. The whole cast is really great. I love Liz's push-pull with them. Yeah, but it's going to pay off. That's why your books are so good; you put so much into them to make them work. And mysteries are so tough.

Jenny: Heroines are so essential for you and me. But for Krissie, it's the hero. So let's talk about heroes. Nice segue, huh?

Lani Very nice.

To be continued tomorrow. . .

Lucy March's A Little Night Magic will be out from St. Martin's Press on January 31, 2012.



Kristina Douglas's Raziel and Demon are out now;Warrior will be out in April 2012.



Jenny Crusie's You Again and Lavender's Blue will be out from St. Martin's Press a year after she finishes them; when is anybody's guess.