Andres’s review of Zorba the Greek > Likes and Comments

Thank you. You thoroughly expressed my feelings. I, too, was looking forward to a wonderful reading experience and was really disappointed

Only those who love life can trully appreciate this book. Your review shows that you were incapable of piercing through the surface of the ideas conveyed. And maybe, just maybe, you should revise your idea about what a good read actually is.

@Mitchell---thanks for the comment and the like! Your own review of Zorba reminded me of the philosophical angles the characters represent. My dislike of the book hasn't lessened, but maybe softened just a little bit over time. I can see there are some positives of the book, but unfortunately it's tainted by a lot of sexism and misogyny.

@Villie--- I wasn’t sure how to respond to your comment since it is clearly an emotional response, not a critical (as in critical thinking) one. The first part of your comment serves only to praise those who love the book and dismiss those who don’t. I could easily use the same type of reasoning to dismiss your comment (“Only those who love critical thinking can truly appreciate my opinion of Zorba the Greek.”) but I won’t because that's the easiest and most reactionary kind of comment one can make---not very suited to the kind of adult discourse you hope to find on a site like Goodreads.

As to whether or not I was able to “pierce through the surface of the ideas conveyed” I can only say this: if one looks only at the superficial message that Zorba’s character espouses (live your life to the fullest) then the book is certainly an enjoyable read. But if one looks at how he actually lives his life and how he treats women, then there starts to be a problem. He has no qualms about using those around him to further his own wants, be it using the narrator for his money, or Madame Hortense (or the young lady in that other town) for his own physical pleasure. What he thinks women want and how he thinks women should be treated are outdated by at least 30 years, and that’s only because society was slow to frown on that type of behavior until then. Grabbing a women’s breast gets you jailed now, and I’m pretty sure it was never seen as a welcome gesture by anyone---except maybe someone who thinks like Zorba. I can agree to the “live life to the fullest” maxim but I don’t like it coming from someone of his character.

So yes, if one can ignore the chauvinism, sexism, and misogyny, if one can ignore the beheading of women for rejecting a man’s advances, if one can ignore the terrible treatment suffered by an old woman who had been ill-used by men all her life, and if one can ignore an old man who can think of nobody but himself and his needs, this is a wonderful book.

For starters, have a nice month everyone and Andres sorry for taking me so long to post a reply to your comment. I have to admit that after reading it, I realised the reason why you disliked the book so much.
Everything that you have mentioned is true and Zorbas's behaviour throughout the book is considered unacceptable most of the times. His sexism,chauvinism, misogyny etc. usually give the impression that this is the person the writer idolises. But Zorbas is only one of the main two characters, despite the fact that the novel's title bears his name. The narrator -namely Kazantzakis himself- says that he admired certain aspects of his friend's personality, but despised others. He often judged his erroneous choices and tried to make him become more rational.
The two men are on the opposite sides of a pendulum: the narrator is too reserved, strict, intellectual, political-correct, while Zorbas is loud, bold, passionate, spontaneous, knows no limits and cares not about the consequences of his actions. I agree that the reader should not aspire to be like him. The novel's very ending proves that Kazantzakis does not convey the message that we should all turn into people like Zorbas, but that we ought to give some thought to the life of such humans, so as to understand them and maybe borrow such aspects of their character as we deem appropriate and beneficial to ourselves.
I think what the book is really about is two people, whose mentality is vastly different, going through a figurative journey, where they encounter other people and find themselves in all sorts of situations, and coming out of it more in peace with themselves. Their core hasn't changed, but it would be wrong -in my opinion- to say that their interaction did not influence them in some ways. The narrator realises that life is not all about constant thinking and writing, but it can be full of enjoyment. He learns that when he covets something, he should try and make it his (without breaking the rules, of course). Zorbas, on the other hand, seems to have understood that his actions and his words have an impact on the people around him (like in the case of Madame Hortense) and that he really ought to think twice when it comes to playing with the feelings of others.
I was given the feeling that at the end the previously mentioned sides of the pendulum were brought much closer in order to reach an equillibrium. Isn't beautiful when two people can work out their differences and share their thoughts, feelings and experiences so that they both come out of this "journey" fresh? For me, it is. That is what I loved in the novel. This is why I consider it a masterpiece of modern greek literature.
Of course, literature being a form of art, it is understandable and even desirable that people have different opinions about a work. Your ideas have helped me understand the nature of the book better and find deeper reasons for my liking it.

Well said Villie! I, too, have a better appreciation for the book because of what you've written, so I thank you for that. I find all your points well grounded and now that I think back to the events of the novel I can see how I had missed a few things under the bluster of Zorba's deeds and words.

Unfortunately I didn’t find the narrator a strong enough character to counter the enormity of Zorba. The narrator needed Zorba too much for his own good, as if he would be utterly lost without him. Zorba, indeed, takes the place of the narrator's friend who went off to war, and we can only assume this friend was the narrator's previous anchor in life. This makes the character come off as desperate for someone to follow, and while it may be a comment on a universal human need/want/weakness, it doesn't make for a very compelling or likable character, especially since he latches onto someone as potentially unlikable as Zorba.

In fact it wasn’t until the end, really, that there was any noticeable change in the narrator, when he has the conversation with his dead friend. It would be impossible to say Zorba didn’t affect the narrator but nothing in that passage indicates it was his time with Zorba that helped him with it---in fact it’s a kind of very indirect homage to Dante (whom he was reading at the beginning of the novel) and maybe even to the Buddha dialogue as well.

It's not until after he comes to terms with his dead friend that he can deal with the force of Zorba by writing the book we are reading. But it's ironic that the "telepathy" he talked about with his friend (about feeling the moment of death of the other) happens with Zorba and not the friend, but it's the death of the friend that seems to affect him more---or, more correctly, we read more about the impact of that death and his subsequent acceptance of death in life, than we do of the aftermath of Zorba's death. The narrator writes the book, we read it, and we are told he is at peace now that he has written about Zorba---but is he at peace about Zorba only, about life in general, or about both?

It's a strange ending since there isn't any word about what, exactly, he has taken away from the experience. We only know that he has mourned his friends but we are left to guess in what ways he has changed, if at all. Zorba may have changed (since he had settled down with a family) but it is Zorba himself that describes his marriage not in terms of love but of the material things her dowry provided him. The narrator's change is an open question and from everything we had witnessed up to that point, I don't think he knows any better than we do how Zorba affected him. No solid pronouncement from all this except to say "I experienced Zorba, and you have too!"---not a light statement to be sure, but just a little more reflection in the end from the narrator may have gone a long way.

And all of this has now convinced me that the book is not as "truly awful" as I had initially thought. It is a problematic book to me, but it has thankfully provided this wonderful discussion, of a kind I haven't had for quite some time. I wish I had read this book with a group so I would have had others to hash out the finer points of the book instead of just my own thoughts stewing in my head.

I don't know whether you have literature essays in your past or future, but you sure can write engagingly and persuasively!

Andres, I truly appreciate your last comment and I have to say the same for your own essay writing. You know how to use your arguments well and back them up with poignant examples. So it comes as no surprise that your extensive analysis of the narrator's personality has made me realize something I had never thought about the book before.

You are right in saying that the changes in the narrator are subtle and cannot be attributed to his conversations with Zorba only. In fact, he does make more references to his "friend" Dante, as you pointed out, than to Zorba.

However, I think there might be a reason behind this.

I'll start by saying that reading in general is an experience in itself and at the last page of every story we all come to the end of an emotional and spiritual journey -joyful or sad, beneficial or unnecessary, interesting or mundane. The majority of times we identify with the main characters and share their thoughts and feelings as these are at the very end of the novel. However, this is not the case here.

"Zorba the Greek" is an exception to the habit of most writers to make a sensational ending that will be the shaping factor of the readers' opinion of their story as a whole. The end of this book is like a whisper compared to the emotionally challenging chapters that have preceded it. It is like an afterthought; a few pages put together in order not to leave any question marks in the readers' minds about the fate of Zorba: we know what happened to the two men at the end of the story, yet the narrator is as tormented as he was in the beginning of the book. Isn't this strange? Why would Kazantzakis write a whole book about two people out of whom the one eventually dies and the second remains unchanged by the circumstances? I believe this is not by chance. It seems like the writer's way of letting the readers draw their own conclusions about the ending.

It all boils down to the idea that it does not really matter how a book ends. What's really important is how we feel while reading it and what thoughts we are inspired to make. Accordingly, death is but an event in the lifetime of a thousand moments. Life is what makes the difference. I cannot tell for sure whether or not the life and death of Zorba the Greek affected the narrator in a significant way. I know they made a difference to me. I cannot figure out how the narrator felt at the end. I only know how I did. Maybe this is what Kazantzakis was driving at by putting such a final touch to his novel : the reader should not bother about the characters at all. Rather, it would be a good chance to realize how WE feel about all that we have read and how we can change OUR LIVES so that we come just one step closer to saying: “I have experienced Zorba”.

I find this new aspect of the book riveting as it bodes well with the ideas reflected in it. I think that the reason why the narrator appears to remain neutral at the end of the story is precisely in order not to influence the reader's opinion of the book. Kazantzakis gives us the liberty of choosing whether or not the narrator became a better human being -or a happier one- ever since his acquaintance with Zorba. So based on our own take of the book, we can decide if any good came out this 300-pages-long experience. In short, the writer does not use any kind of highly dramatic element at the end that would make those in favor of the ideas conveyed fall in love with the book forever and the ones who were skeptical about it see it under a different light. He leaves things open to interpretation, thus igniting fruitful discussions like the one we are having.

We read the same book, and came up with different theories and opinions about it. We felt different things while reading it and either liked it or disliked it. This is partially because Kazantzakis gave us the chance to feel differently and appreciate the book or not based on our own ideas.


“I have experienced Zorba, and you have too!”

That’s what really matters :)


Thank you once more for your extremely interesting analysis. I have happened to read the book with a group of friends and it is the first time that I have enjoyed a conversation about it so much. Rare are the people with whom I disagree on a matter and yet I can have such a thought-provoking exchange of opinions.

Hear hear, and thank you too! I will read Kazantkasis' other books in the future and I'm sure they will be just as thought provoking as Zorba!.

To be honest, I haven't read any other of Kazantzakis' books, but I very much want to! :)

Sorry to come out of left field here, but I just recently added "Zorba" to my "to read" list, and when I do that I like to read the 1 star reviews, and prepare myself for what might be a disappointment.

What I found here were two intelligent people having a civil disagreement. The rarity of that on the internet is so striking that I had to post a "thank you" for your discourse. Now I think I'll read the book and judge for myself :)

I am glad that you found our literary argument helpful and I trully hope you enjoy all aspects of the book.

Let us know what you think about "Zorba" when you have finished it ;)

I also agree that this disagreement of sorts was most enlightening as well. Thank you or sharing!!

Hey, wow! I'm glad others have found this conversation interesting and helpful, especially since it's still the best one I've had on goodreads so far.

Thank you Dru and Jeremy for your kind words! And I second Villie's thought: let us know what you think of the novel when you're done!

Thank you, Behzad, for the kind word. Even though its been over three years since I finished reading Zorba I remember the book, and my reaction to it, very well.

THANK YOU ANDRES! You summed it up so perfectly! It was a piece of garbage and I'm glad other rational people see it as such!

Thank you Aya for the comment! This book will always be quite a memorable one, if not for the best reasons.

Awesome review, I felt so bored reading it !

Thanks Hayel! I don't know if you'd want to see the movie as well---it's different, but only slightly.

I must admit, watching the movie was quite a shock. I think it’s got to be one of the most misogynistic, disturbing films I have seen in a while, and I’ve watched all kinds. I’m still somewhat reeling from the horror of it. I think what shocked me most was I wasn’t prepared to be horrified. I thought this movie was supposed to be somewhat inspiring. The Greek islanders are definitely not portrayed in a flattering light.


On a side note though, I loved reading the comments between you Villie. I suppose I 'experienced Zorba' and it scared the crap out of me. I don't know if I could read the book. Thank you for the excellent review.

Willow wrote: "I must admit, watching the movie was quite a shock. I think it’s got to be one of the most misogynistic, disturbing films I have seen in a while, and I’ve watched all kinds. I’m still somewhat re..."

Thanks Willow! I think if I had seen the movie first I wouldn't have read the book either---or, I would've been so surprised at the events in the movie I would have had to read the book to make sure it wasn't the filmmakers completely distorting the original text. In that case I would've discovered that no, it wasn't a distortion, and that they actually left things out.

Well, in some ways I think the movie may be a bit more shocking, because it takes place in the 1960s instead of 1916. All I could think of after they kill the poor widow is how come nobody goes to the police? Crete doesn't seem that backward in The Moonspinners.

Thank you for this review, and though I read the comment section I still can't find it in me to look beyond the sexism and brutality of this novel. I cannot see how exactly the narrator differs from Zorba in his perception on women: He is the one who plays with the Old lady's feelings and later thinks it was a great joke when reveals the whole story to Zorba, he too perceives women in a similar manner.
I do enjoy the descriptions of the world around the characters - the moods of the day/season, the soft feeling behind them. It seems like the only worthy part of this book to me.
It's a torture, nonetheless I plan to finish this book, because I cannot stand not reading through any book I start.
Thank you for the fact that I don't feel alone in my perception of this novel.

Willow wrote: "Well, in some ways I think the movie may be a bit more shocking, because it takes place in the 1960s instead of 1916. All I could think of after they kill the poor widow is how come nobody goes to..."

Very true! I hadn't thought about the time period of the movie vs the novel. Even more recent reviews of the movie (due to bluray/dvd releases) emphasize the life affirming message of Zorba and praise the performances, glossing over the more troubling aspects of the movie.

Karolina wrote: "Thank you for this review, and though I read the comment section I still can't find it in me to look beyond the sexism and brutality of this novel. I cannot see how exactly the narrator differs fro..."

Thanks for reading my review and this thread Karolina! As far as the narrator vs Zorba goes, while they do both treat women terribly I see the narrator as an impressionable young man who only follows Zorba's lead in how to treat others. This still shows his general lack of decency but at least in part it can be blamed---but not excused---on his age. Given the type of story it is the reader hopes that the young man will learn the error of his ways by the end of the book.

And I completely understand the need to finish a book once it's started. I've only ever given up reading one book, all the others I might stop reading but I try again later.

Your words are civilized and I hope you make as much sense of how these same mindless murders are the very cruel men of our day in the ISIS cult; what animals!
I saw the movie of Zorba and want to read this book to know the words instead of pictures of the glossed over story in films.
While the movie demonstrates the drug that religion can be to simple poor people in the closed communities of some cults; one can understand the ignorance of religions that combine all known superstitions and traditions to make up the rules as they go. But by all means, discredit women in these cults. When God created Eve from the rib of Adam; was she and he just the beginning of the Jews, because there were other humans at the time outside of the garden. Therefore, they do not treat women as God intended.
Please let us keep reasoning with cruel men. Someone has to be civilized as God intended us to know life.

Couldn't agree more! You put it perfectly. Just awful. This book is the most overrated book of all times and it's disgustingly sexist.

Telrunya wrote: "Couldn't agree more! You put it perfectly. Just awful. This book is the most overrated book of all times and it's disgustingly sexist."

Thanks for your comment. It would be interesting if there were more recent reviews from critics about the book (like with the movie) to see if this would still be considered a "classic" considering the different times we live in.

I dislike this very famous and highly touted book so very much! I don't have time to be as eloquent as Andre and Villie (great debate), but for me there are no lessons here, just sadness and despair and worldviews that teach nothing.

I don't agree with you.

Agreed. Guy is a broken fucking record. Sex sex sex hu hu women dumb hur hur I'm a fat ugly old fart with a one track mind hur hur

Yes! And he basically uses up all the narrator's money, too. At the end of the day, both characters just seem like jerks, imo.

I'm glad that I can despise a book solely because of how it treats women, not prose or some stupid shit like that

Hey Andres- just finished the book this morning and you summed up well how I felt about it. There are a couple of nuggets in there, but most of it appears to the “likes Holden caulfield but not women” crowd.

The widow pissed me off because it was like “I slept with her finally so she’s dead anyway.” Then the disgusting way Bouboulina’s death was described... it’s really hard to get past as a female reader. 1+ for “priveledged navel gazer meets windbag”

Mary wrote: "Hey Andres- just finished the book this morning and you summed up well how I felt about it. There are a couple of nuggets in there, but most of it appears to the “likes Holden caulfield but not wom..."

Thanks Mary! I keep thinking I should reread this just in case I'll see it differently. But then I remember my reaction when I finished it the first time and the feeling passes.

I like your Holden Caulfield crowd comment! Right on the nose...

You summed it up perfectly.

My thoughts exaclty. Great review, thank you

Great review. Though I gave the book 4 stars as it touched my heart in many ways (Its actually 3.5 from me) but it really annoyed me how it speaks about women. Misogynistic and also filled with blasphemies

poor Andres, dont take it so close to the heart. it is fiction with a lesson, delivered thru fantasy

Yes they are vile but I think this represents us men fairly accurately. A good representation astute observation , sad for women and larger humanity.

Thanks for that review. I really had to make myself finish this book because I found it so eye-rollingly tedious and sexist. We get it, the big guy likes to get drunk and hates women, the other is a maybe-but-not-quite buddhist coward. Incredible how many people on here seem to like it.

I got to page 20. I couldn't be agree more.....I suggest readers try Travels with Epicurus.... similar genre and theme, without the ego trip.

Nic wrote: "I got to page 20. I couldn't be agree more.....I suggest readers try Travels with Epicurus.... similar genre and theme, without the ego trip."

Thanks Nic! I'll add "Travels with Epicurus" to my TBR list, it does seem like it would be worth a read.

you really didnt get anything ffrom the book, propably you dont know to read or you didnt understand tghat its not the author who belittles women but the society! thats a pitty of you

What a disturbing woke weak review. It is clearly a dated book, which automatically unauthorizes your hysteric comments. You cannot appreciate literature with this biased lens. For you to read any, I say any, book, you have to be equipped with the sensibilities your age as much as their age. Otherwise burning books would be a very accepted practice from time to time. What makes a book a classic is it's an attempt to grasp what is atemporal, what is potentially universal among humans beings who express themselves through symbols of writing. It's a pity that you couldn't extract the bright side of Zorbas lust for life, or the narrators' willingness to learn (even from the woman, you would say), and concentrated on your own generational struggles. This shows that some books and some literature are to grandeur to be grasped by unequipped readers.

I love that a review that is almost a decade old can still inspire the discourse that one hopes for from the learned and literate reading public that make up one's peers on goodreads.

But discourse implies a willingness to have a conversation, not outright dismissal of an opinion. Fortunately, those who disagree with what turns out to be an opinion (and not a fact) can easily refer to the conversation that already happened almost a decade ago in the past comments of this review. The argumenters may be posting new comments, but their comments are, unfortunately, not new, and predate whatever new pop culture vocabulary has been birthed in the interim.

But I must admit I appreciate the acute perceptiveness and shrewd minds that have carefully read my review and haven't missed a detail, haven't completely missed the point, and especially haven't misread it and attributed to me something I haven't even said. No, nobody has done that so far, and for that I am grateful. We are all masters of literature and can parley intelligently and calmly.

And due to the passionate rebuttals to my review, from my esteemed peers, I guess I'll just have to keep trying to learn to read and write in a thoughtful and educated way instead of the thoughtless, irrational, and ignorant way I've been carrying on all these years. Those who disagree with me are absolutely right to question my literacy and basic reading comprehension skills. For if someone, somewhere, disagrees with your own opinion of a book, it is far, far easier to believe that they are simpletons with a feeble grasp of language than to believe that not everyone holds the opinion that you do. For that would be too much for the frail soul of true and real reader.

And far be it from me to endanger the soul of any reader, anywhere, with my pathetic review on the internet of a book you hold so dear.

The first thousand books I have read in the decades of my life so far were just mere practice, and now I must go forth with the newly earned wisdom from my critics and truly, truly read and appreciate the words written on the page in a way that can leave no doubt as to their everlasting immortality and truthfulness, and if I happen to disagree with someone's opinion about a text, I will think back on this and realize that I know nothing and be humbled and kneel down and ask forgiveness from the world at large.

O Forgive me, Literature, be not mad at thy humble servant who only wishes to enjoy the words and stories from Your bountiful Self.

O Forgive me.

⬆️ That. Was. Brilliant! 😂

Kelli wrote: "⬆️ That. Was. Brilliant! 😂"

My heart is warmed that it was read and received in the spirit of my intentions.

Alas, I have yet to hear back from Literature. Patiently, patiently I wait...

You’ve precisely articulated my thoughts on reading this novel.

I don't think this book is meant to promote any such views at all. If you're familiar with Kazantzakis's other works and with the man himself, you know that he was a socialist and an outspoken critic of basically every aspect of Greek society at the time and was persecuted by the church and the government for it. You have stumbled upon an important dimension of the book - that it's not simply a feel-good, life affirming self-help guide. This is the modern white-washing of it. You have discovered its true complexity as a bare-bones depiction of a real man (Zorba was a real guy that Kazantzakis knew and the events in the book are based on real events) and a real village society. This is perhaps more clear if you've read The Last Temptation where he depicts Jesus as simply a man, or in Freedom and Death where nationalism is depicted as ultimately self-destructive, or in Christ Recrucified where the pretensions of religious leaders and the rich are shown to be hollow and self-exculpatory. In each of these works, including Zorba, women are victims of a cruel society that doesn't understand the injustice of its own actions. Even so, there are examples of women in his stories that are not simply victims.

His stark depictions of the sexist attitudes of his characters are understandably difficult for modern audiences, but I don't think they would have been "acceptable" by the standards of even his time and there's no reason to assume he himself was promoting such views any more than when in Christ Recrucified, the priest of a rich village cruelly denied refuge to victims of ethnic cleansing who were passing by.

I wish I saw this review of yours before attempting to read it. Now there's a few hours of my life I'll never get back

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You articulated my thought exactly

As a woman currently reading this book, this review affirms what I have felt. The women are not full characters, but merely playthings the men can toss aside once they’re done with them. Thank you for articulating the problems with this book.