Sun > Status Update

Hey, I totally get talk of legal redress against someone who has wronged you. It’s certainly my first thought! Of course we all should be able to have recourse to the legal system to redress wrongs.

It’s just that generally it’s miserable. But how would you know if you don’t do it for a living or have never been involved in a law suit?

Litigation in this world is the worst case scenario for most people. The super rich use them as a tool, but the rest of us tend to resort to litigation when there is no other option. All litigation is horrendously expensive, clumsy and mentally murderous - aside from litigation about abuse/assault etc which is even worse. Also, there is no guarantee that you will win. And if you lose, you don’t just have your legal fees, you may have to pay the other sides’. After years of grinding dips back into whatever the horrible thing was that started the lawsuit in the first place.

I work in the field, but also, in my life, I’ve been the plaintiff in a few lawsuits - when I had no other option. So I speak from both sides, as the client, and as the lawyer.

In some jurisdictions the Government provides legal aid to applicants for certain things - and in some jurisdictions lawyers will do cases for plaintiffs on spec - where there is the expectation of pay out at the end. There are also law non-profits and legal centres which provide free representation for certain things.


The exception can be small claims, which can usually be resolved fairly quickly. (“Quickly” = a few months). Litigation is great for us lawyers - I enjoy working in the field, but if you are acting for an actual person, you do what you can to spare them if you can.

These are all massive generalities - law is unique to each jurisdiction. “Jurisdiction” can mean a local council area, a state, a country, but it can also mean the sort of law - ie the family law jurisdiction or the criminal law jurisdiction.

As to whether or not suing SH or whomever is a possibility, that depends on the law of the jurisdiction. First you have to work out the act want to sue about. Then, which jurisdiction. (This is a particular joy when it comes to online stuff - for instance, if someone defrauds you online, does it happen where you live or where they live? Or where the website lives that they did it all on?) California might have different laws about it all to Maryland. Unless somehow it falls into Federal law? I’m not in the US so I have no clue how these matters are resolved there. What if someone defrauded by a German catfish is in the US?

These are all foundational issues - and the legal system has worked out ways to answer these questions. It just means the answer to the question: are any of SH’s acts legally actionable? Involves answers to those questions. Before you even get to “did SH actually do x, and what is the evidence?”

If any of you want to pursue legal avenues, my advice would be to scratch around our online community to get recommendations of a lawyer experienced in the field, who can give you a referral to someone who is admitted to the bar of your state. In Australia, lawyers (or solicitors as we call ourselves) often offer a free first consultation where they can give you a bit of an idea of your legal situation and options. Please note, finding someone experienced in the field is important. Car crashes are different from fraud as are different from divorces as are different from defamation.

Also: if you want to pursue something, I would act quickly because there will be a time limit on when you can start something.(it’s called the statute of limitations, and the time limit depends on the alleged wrong, and the jurisdiction it occurred in).

In some countries there are community legal centres who provide free legal advice. They are a good option, for an initial opinion and referral.

In all of this I have left out alternate dispute resolution - that may be applicable, and worth raising with any lawyer you deal with.

Lex wrote: "It came across to me that Reflection might not have read this entire thread. It is very long so I understand… But coming from someone who has, I have noticed that many of SH’s victims have posted a..."

*Does a slow-clap-to-standing-ovation*

Josy wrote: "Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "Zaza wrote: "I'm very curious to hear about their answer....."

Thank you for informing us!
I hope they won't do it. If they already said they are canceling the s..."

They are not promoting it on the con, nor selling it :))

Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "They are not promoting it on the con, nor selling it :)) ..."

That's a relief!! Thank you :)

Book wrote: "When I used to work at B&N we used to accept an exchange for store credit on all books as long as they were in sellable condition (looked new)."

That there is largely why I wouldn't return my print copies to Amazon.ca. They couldn't assure me that they wouldn't be sold again. Say I return them, Amazon restocks them, someone buys them, loves them (because regardless of the origin of the content, they are well written), becomes a SH fan and goes on to support SH. In that case, what was the point in returning them?

If you have physical copies and no longer want them, don't return them, don't resell them, don't donate them. Recycle them. Because if you feel strongly enough about not keeping those books, you should feel just as strongly about not wanting to put them out there for someone else.

Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "They are not promoting it on the con, nor selling it :)"

Thanks for the update, that's a relief !

Zaza wrote: "Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "They are not promoting it on the con, nor selling it :)"

Thanks for the update, that's a relief !"

Right? You're welcome, though it's all thanks to a friend who went there and checked :)

Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "it's all thanks to a friend who went there and checked :) ..."

Wow! Say thanks to your friend for me :)

Alienor ✘ French Frowner ✘ wrote: "They are not promoting it on the con, nor selling it :)) "

They are however still selling it through their own website and Amazon.ca. Perhaps that will change after the con.
(I only checked those two sites)

I'm not sure if anyone saw this Heidi Cullinan post?

https://www.patreon.com/posts/humble-...

Cassandra wrote: "I'm not sure if anyone saw this Heidi Cullinan post?

https://www.patreon.com/posts/humble-..."

That is very generous of her.

Cassandra wrote: "I'm not sure if anyone saw this Heidi Cullinan post?

https://www.patreon.com/posts/humble-..."

That's very generous and classy, imho.

Mónica wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Karen wrote: "Absolutely I don't even get this because if I have to verbally attack someone and do the things that they've done 'in defense of my friend' I'm sorry but I'm going t..."

I don't think being an author (or other kind of creative business person) makes abusive online behavior worse, mainly because I think cruelty is cruelty, period, and nothing can ever justify it.

For me, the difference is that behaving cruelly to people while in your business space is extremely bad business. So it's wrong, seriously wrong and it's stupid.

Rebecca wrote: "Having been under a rock lately, I have been reading this thread (on my phone, no less) for many many hours straight, from start to finish (with many links to twitter and elsewhere along the way). ..."

This is such a heartfelt comment. Thank you for taking the time to read the thread and to comment. I wholeheartedly agree that the visibility needs to continue, as there are still many people unaware. Still 259 people giving money to these assholes as of this moment.

Jules wrote: "Still 259 people giving money to these assholes as of this moment. "

Regarding Patreon I suspect at least some are waiting till the end of the month to cancel, and some of those may be doing so simply to have access to anything more SH may say or do there, in order to be able to know it and/or report it. There may be people still there in complete agreement on this issue, but remaining just for now for those sorts of reasons.

I think there won't really be a good idea of how many of those are still supporting SH until after April 1.

Alexandra wrote: "Jules wrote: "Still 259 people giving money to these assholes as of this moment. "

Regarding Patreon I suspect at least some are waiting till the end of the month to cancel, and some of those may ..."

Must be why they've locked the updates posts on the 100$ tier.

Elena wrote: "Must be why they've locked the updates posts on the 100$ tier. "

Might be at least one reason, yeah. To keep it from "spies" that might be at lower levels. Possibly also in the hopes it inspires some to bump up their support in order to make up money due to those leaving in droves.

<= this is me, not shedding any tears.

Alexandra wrote: "Elena wrote: "Must be why they've locked the updates posts on the 100$ tier. "

Might be at least one reason, yeah. To keep it from "spies" that might be at lower levels. Possibly also in the hopes..."

I actually wondered if it wasn't also to prevent news from spreading too much among patrons, especially new ones and the ones not really interested in looking too closely into the matter.
If posts addressing the issue aren't available to basically anyone, since there's nobody left on the 100$ tier, there's less chance any patron still in the dark will stumble upon them and go looking for details elsewhere.
By putting those posts on the highest tier SH practically erased them. Out of sight, out of mind.

Elena wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Elena wrote: "Must be why they've locked the updates posts on the 100$ tier. "

Might be at least one reason, yeah. To keep it from "spies" that might be at lower levels. Possibly..."

Makes sense, yeah.

Well, at least it looks as if the amount spent on this patreon thing obviously went down. When it all started it showed 80% of his goal was reached. Now it's down to 41%, so let's take this as something positive.

patreon should have disabled them -_-

250+ idiots are still falling for their tricks, and actually believing it or being willfully blind

I'm curious as to when "enough is enough". Publishers have turned away in droves; unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done. Why not leave the Patreon alone and let the few remaining patrons have their space? I know I'm in the minority here, but what is the point of destroying someone's life so completely? Do you want them to be homeless and begging on a street corner? Is that the only ending that would satisfy some of you? I thank God that I'm not that vindictive, and believe me, there are plenty of times when I could have been - and for much worse transgressions.

Rebecca wrote: "Having been under a rock lately, >

I rarely go on Social Media anymore but was directed to this feed by an author friend. Like Rebecca, I know I am late, but after reading every post I felt compelled to pop in and say:
1) to the victims: my heartfelt condolences. May you find healing and an end to your feelings of isolation.
2) to those who continue to fight the good fight so the truth is known (to both readers and publishers): you have my utmost respect and gratitude.
3) to those who came here to apologize to others: that took humility and courage.

Kudos to you all. It is a testament to just how amazing this community can be.

Sandyco wrote: "I'm curious as to when "enough is enough". Publishers have turned away in droves; unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done. Why not leave the Patreon alone and let the..."

it's not about being vindictive, that's not what I'm feeling, the thing is the way they wrote those books and making money off of other's people pain and abuse and gaslighting just does not make it acceptable for them to keep profiting in this way.

and they could just get a job that is not writing or mooching off of people. especially that they practically raised money for supposedly "health" reasons and didn't have to work for a cent of it, the only effort they made was hoaxing people and coaxing sympathies.

or at the very least, if they do wanna write,
1-they have to be totally honest about who the writer is
2-stop abusing people
3-write stories that are genuine and original rather than writing about ppl's lives without their consent.
4-not allow other authors or fake anon accounts to ward off readers/innocent bystanders or go ballistic for reasons of critisism/bad reviews etc....
and on and on ...

you know, the way actual authors have done.
decent money should only be gotten from decent work.

Sandyco wrote: "unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done."

Their career as SH, probably, but if I were you I wouldn't worry too much about anyone being homeless or begging on the corner, they'll reinvent themselves as someone else soon enough.

About the rest, what Thebomb said.

Elena wrote: "Sandyco wrote: " they'll reinvent themselves as someone else "

probably in another genre . -_-

Thebomb wrote: "Elena wrote: "they'll reinvent themselves as someone else "

probably in another genre . -_-"

I want to say "let's hope", but I feel bad for the readers who'll get in their way.

Fair enough, but again, why not leave Patreon alone? I doubt much money is being made from it, considering most patrons are probably at the $5 level. This probably wouldn't even pay rent or a mortgage.

Thebomb wrote: "patreon should have disabled them -_-

250+ idiots are still falling for their tricks, and actually believing it or being willfully blind"

I've reported the account three times now and I'm sure lots of you have as well. I wonder what's taking them so long. Same with Tantor Media. All the audiobooks are still available :/ And St. Martin's Press?? Maybe they will just dump them quietly since no book has been published yet? And Berkley still hasn't pulled the Barons Series.

Sandyco wrote: "I'm curious as to when "enough is enough". Publishers have turned away in droves; unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done. Why not leave the Patreon alone and let the..."

It is certainly anyone's right to still support them if they want to. I just keep seeing people comment that they are glad this thread is going because they weren't aware of what has transpired. There absolutely will be people that are still going to support no matter what - but, people also have the right to be informed as to exactly what they are supporting.

Jules wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "I'm curious as to when "enough is enough". Publishers have turned away in droves; unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done. Why not leave the Patreon a..."

I have no problem with people's right to be informed about everything, but as we've seen, there are people who don't care. Why not leave them (and the Patreon) alone?

Sandyco wrote: "Fair enough, but again, why not leave Patreon alone? I doubt much money is being made from it, considering most patrons are probably at the $5 level. This probably wouldn't even pay rent or a mortg..."

I see where you're coming from, things is if 250 people are paying 5$ per month that's 1250 $ [that is if they really are paying once per month, which I doubt[
also they have a 100$ limit as well
last I knew 2 people were crediting that, so that's more every month as well.

it's just too easy a money. for a bunch of stories from people who hurt a lot of people.

to me, I;m not bothered for me as much for people who don't know [or do know and are ignoring] the pain "SH" caused.
it's sentimental damage, and it's being paid for still. for the wrong party

any other profession and someone faking a persona and making money off it, would have been considered a fraudster if not other things as well. would have been immediately shunned out. you see what I mean?

I could say to each their own, but in this case, you gotta see why we can't , at least in our minds, let it go.

Josy wrote: "Thebomb wrote: "patreon should have disabled them -_-

250+ idiots are still falling for their tricks, and actually believing it or being willfully blind"

I've reported the account three times now..."


Josy, Patreon are ignoring.
some called them out on twitter too, no dice. so there's your answer.

I noticed the same to several other websites, even for some of the groups that have immediately made a statement. the books are still out there.
I suppose they thought to appease the immediate anger and thinking people don't have long memories , thing is most readers DO HAVE LONG MEMORIES.

Thebomb wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "Fair enough, but again, why not leave Patreon alone? I doubt much money is being made from it, considering most patrons are probably at the $5 level. This probably wouldn't even pay..."

My problem with this is that the sentimental damage has already been done. What happened has happened and cannot be changed. I would hope that anyone who has been hurt by this will try to move on from it and not stay stuck by doing things like trying to shut down the Patreon. Going on and living your life, and basically ignoring an abuser, is a much better strategy for the victim's emotional health. I'm not saying there should be no consequences, and to my mind the consequences have already been pretty severe (dropped by Riptide, etc.).

I speak from personal knowledge, by the way, as my daughter was molested by her father when she was nine years old. I put him in prison for five years (I still wish it would have been longer!), and he has been out for a long time now, but I try not to dwell on it. She's just fine; she has a husband and new baby now, and we're all glad her father's not any kind of toxic influence in our lives. If I had gone after him the way I really wanted to, I would have had no time to raise my kids, and they were the priority.

Sandyco wrote: "Thebomb wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "Fair enough, but again, why not leave Patreon alone? I doubt much money is being made from it, considering most patrons are probably at the $5 level. This probably w..."


I see what you mean.
I suppose many people still believe that the consequences haven't been severe enough as long as THEY [SH] are still profiting from it.

your daughter's abuser was put away, at least for a time. [sorry about your pain btw]
these victims, their abusers are still out and about and maybe even abusing others still.
that's why , from an ethical POV, them still having a Patreon is not acceptable.

we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I know what you mean though. you're saying an eye for an eye makes the world go blind. and you have a point in that when the victims begin feeling like jutice has been meted out

Sandyco wrote: "Going on and living your life, and basically ignoring an abuser, is a much better strategy for the victim's emotional health..."

I'm sorry for what you and your daughter had to go through! I really am! No one should have to live through something so horrific as this!

BUT I kindly ask you not to tell survivors how they should feel and how they should deal. What worked for you and your daughter might not work for other survivors and no one should tell them when it's okay for them to stop hurting. Everyone deals differently and everyone should be allowed to heal in their own time and however they feel works best for them.

Josy wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "Going on and living your life, and basically ignoring an abuser, is a much better strategy for the victim's emotional health..."

I'm sorry for what your and your daughter had to go..."

+1

Sandyco wrote: "I would hope that anyone who has been hurt by this will try to move on from it and not stay stuck by doing things like trying to shut down the Patreon. Going on and living your life, and basically ignoring an abuser, is a much better strategy for the victim's emotional health."

With all due respect, I don't think it's your or anyone else's place to tell survivors what they should or shouldn't be doing to regain their emotional health.

And in any case, I might be wrong, but Patreon won't close SH's Patreon if it didn't violate their terms of agreement or conduct policy, right?
So, what are you worried about exactly? Who, and in what way, isn't leaving "people who don't care" alone?

Elena wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "I would hope that anyone who has been hurt by this will try to move on from it and not stay stuck by doing things like trying to shut down the Patreon. Going on and living your life..."



^^^^ Trauma Counselor seconding this bit:

"I don't think it's your or anyone else's place to tell survivors what they should or shouldn't be doing to regain their emotional health."

Everyone has to find their own process.

PS - Trauma changes people. They are not the same people they were before. And I do mean trauma. Not a traumatic event, but trauma. Eight people can experience the same thing and only one have trauma as a result. Each is valid. But that one person is not who they were before, while the others may easier move forward -- easier because they are who they were before.

Elena wrote: "And in any case, I might be wrong, but Patreon won't close SH's Patreon if it didn't violate their terms of agreement or conduct policy, right?."

People Who Can't Use Patreon
After creating a Patreon page, any creator caught in the act or convicted of making credible violent threats, committing violent crimes, child abuse, malicious doxing, coordinating nonviolent harm (such as fraud, money laundering and gambling), or encouraging others to do any of these activities, may be banned from using Patreon.
https://www.patreon.com/guidelines#pe...

I'm no lawyer but I think what they've been doing is enough reason to look into it.

edit:
Fraud - Don’t post information that is false or otherwise misleading.
Impersonation - Don’t impersonate anyone. Don’t use another’s account, or allow others to use your account.
Intellectual Property - Don’t infringe on others’ intellectual property rights.
https://www.patreon.com/legal

Sandyco wrote: "I'm curious as to when "enough is enough". Publishers have turned away in droves; unless SH can afford to self-publish, their career is pretty much done. Why not leave the Patreon alone and let the..."

Not everyone on here feels the same way about all the issues that have come up. I'm upset about the fallout for Riptide who authors have admitted had good people working there and I believe were improving, even before the necessary resignation and removal of SHs works were made. For me that is too far. I just haven't talked about it as Susan asked that this thread stayed about SH when things started to branch off and I'm only using it as an example of what I do find unfair in all the fallout from this.

SH is a different case. I wish the objections about SH gender were not so front and centre in this argument. This initially made me support SH and miss the genuinely important issues. People have parted with money under what appears to be false presences. (This would have stopped me buying this author's books). Several people claim that their real life stories have been exploited in the authors' writing. With all the other accounts of this author's unacceptable behaviour and the author themselves skirting around this issue in their 'apology' I believe them. Exploitation of someone's personal trauma in writing portrayed as fictional, I find completely unforgivable. For this reason I think every thing this author wrote should be destroyed. There is fiction and there is exploitation. I wouldn't put anyone who had exploited their position back in a position to do that again. It isn't about punishing an author for me, it's about protecting others.

Josy wrote: "Elena wrote: "And in any case, I might be wrong, but Patreon won't close SH's Patreon if it didn't violate their terms of agreement or conduct policy, right?."

People Who Can't Use Patreon
After c..."

exactly why Patreon's silence on this matter is highly suspicious

Samantha wrote: "PS - Trauma changes people. They are not the same people they were before. And I do mean trauma. Not a traumatic event, but trauma. Eight people can experience the same thing and only one have trauma as a result. Each is valid. But that one person is not who they were before, while the others may easier move forward -- easier because they are who they were before."

THIS!

....Riptide victimized many, many people. That they are even still standing is saddening to me, when they should have been gone years ago.

That's just my 2 cents.

Samantha wrote: "....Riptide victimized many, many people. That they are even still standing is saddening to me, when they should have been gone years ago.

That's just my 2 cents."

+1
and anyway authors routinely find better publishing houses.
considering what I read about Sarah Lyons and the atmosphere Riptide fostered, change is a good thing in this case

Elena wrote: "Sandyco wrote: "I would hope that anyone who has been hurt by this will try to move on from it and not stay stuck by doing things like trying to shut down the Patreon. Going on and living your life..."

I love this

Josy wrote: "Elena wrote: "And in any case, I might be wrong, but Patreon won't close SH's Patreon if it didn't violate their terms of agreement or conduct policy, right?."

People Who Can't Use Patreon
After c..."

Thanks, Josy. ;)
It was kind of a rethorical question, actually. :D
If Patreon doesn't find cause to close the account, because there's none (I believe there's), any reporting won't do any good, right?
So far it seems like it isn't doing any good anyway, but I still have hope that Alexandra is right and people are getting ready to leave at the end of the month.

Nicki wrote: "It isn't about punishing an author for me, it's about protecting others."

Same for me.

I think Patreon's twitter is deleting all tweets about the scam.

or I could be wrong.
#suspicious