Sun > Status Update

Marlobo wrote: "i was waiting from yesterday Avon Gale statement, (I really adore her books, I I still have not decided what to do concerning her work)..."

I'm still waiting for one of them to explain how they spent a whole weekend in New Orleans with this guy and didn't suspect anything? I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm having a hard time right now.

Amy wrote: "Marlobo wrote: "i was waiting from yesterday Avon Gale statement, (I really adore her books, I I still have not decided what to do concerning her work)..."

I'm still waiting for one of them to exp..."

Same here Amy, same here.

Marlobo wrote: "i was waiting from yesterday Avon Gale statement, (I love her books, I still have not decided what to do concerning her work)

https://www.facebook.com/avongalewrit......"

It's hard to decide if you are willing to forgive and forget when we don't know the depth of the involvement of these other authors, how in or out of the loop they were with all of SH's shenanigans. These apologies are rather vague as to what exactly they are apologizing for. And it's hard to know how much of it is sincere and how much of it is trying to avoid going down with the ship. I'm sure some of the authors have remained as quiet as they have so as to consult with agents/lawyers/etc, so you think they had plenty of time to come up with something better than "I'm sorry you're hurt, but I'm hurt too."

Shelby wrote: "...It's hard to decide if you are willing to forgive and forget when we don't know the depth of the involvement of these other authors,..."

With the rest of the authors, I'm slowly deleting my ratings and reviews, and shelving the books where they deserve it according my POV.

AG is the only one I'm waiting that gives me solid reasons to no ban her for mi read plan, yet I don't have many hope for now.

Sam wrote: "LenaLena wrote: "I think it is easy to not care if the writer is a woman or a bisexual man if you are a woman. However, if you are a bisexual man and you have this other bisexual man representing y..."

Thank you, Sam.
I've been sitting here for 15 minutes trying to write a reaction that doesn't sound like an attack... but you've said it so much better than I could have.

This is about transparency and avoiding deceit, not policing our pseudonyms.

I am Blaine, and I am genderqueer, and no one gets to decide what name I write under but me.

I have been following this for several days, silently trying to make sense of it all. I haven’t spoken up before now because I have only very recently become even marginally involved in this community (long time reader and devoted fan of the genre, new writer to the genre). However… silence never accomplishes anything worthwhile and all of the amazingly strong, compassionate and articulate people here have only proven that. I salute and admire and support everyone who has spoken out and continues to do so.

Personally, I have had absolutely no experience of any of the people involved in this but I have endured similar, though nowhere near as extreme, situations in the past. I understand how the survivors feel and desperately hope that they find the support and love they need to heal and move on within this fabulous group.

I don’t think it’s any big secret how blown away I’ve been by the amazingly positive reception of my debut MM novel. That is due to you folks, the readers. You’re f*#king heroes, the lot of you. Any author who purposely hurts, maligns, ridicules etc any reader is, plain and simple, an idiot. Readers don’t owe authors anything. Not even loyalty. All of us as humans, though, owe each other respect and kindness, until proven otherwise. And SH has most definitely proven otherwise.

Sam wrote: "Blaine wrote: "Sam wrote: "LenaLena wrote: "I think it is easy to not care if the writer is a woman or a bisexual man if you are a woman. However, if you are a bisexual man and you have this other ..."

Yes. I 100% agree with this.

Karen Stivali's statement:
(still referring to "him" and not actually admitting to anything)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?stor...

It's almost as though someone crafted a generic statement & said 'dress it up how you want but don't say anything too damning'. Or something.

Still no from me. Hard pass.

This is total personal brand protection. They backed a promising horse and it lost. Now time to dig in and protect their own interests. Makes a sort of business sense. I assume the key to that is admit no guilt, hunker down, and wait it out. Try to smooth it out with "I'm sorry, but..." and "I'm sorry if I did anything you interpreted as hurtful," etc. It's the gold standard when this type of thing happens; I'd be surprised if statements read any different.

Amy wrote: "Karen Stivali's statement:
(still referring to "him" and not actually admitting to anything)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?stor..."

Wow, that's an unfortunate response. I too had been friends with him for years and stood by him, but it wasn't too hard to say he wasn't being "attacked by anonymous accounts". Nikki and people were trying to send out a warning. They were trying to be heard. I guess they think Harvey Weinstein was "attacked" by accusers too.

That whole circle of people seem to be unable to accept blame or responsibility. <8( That's a sad state of affairs.

Jann wrote: "I see a lot of name calling on the referenced twitter thread by Nikki. The cursing people out is a bit off putting and not someone or something that I would normally follow or volunteer to read on ..."


Is this you too?

https://image.ibb.co/eEfQ3S/Screensho...

Just wondering....

Vicky wrote: "Karen wrote: "Vicky wrote: "kelgar01 wrote: "Megan Derr's FB
https://www.facebook.com/meganaderr/p..."

I may have to try a new to me author ♥ Bought an audiobook
[bo..."

I read the novel first, then the short novel that inspired it. And then, while I'm not an audiobook person, it was my 1st choice to help pass the time after having laser eye surgery in the summer.

Amy wrote: "Karen Stivali's statement:
(still referring to "him" and not actually admitting to anything)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?stor..."

There are times when I feel like a normal, intelligent person.
Then
There are times when I'm incapable of clear articulation and all I can say is
Bullshit!

All my <3 & support to you, my dear Susan. (drinks on me next time we go out!) And same to the rest who fought to get this truth told. I can't imagine the toll this has taken on each of you, but I'm heartened to see there's not just consequences for some but well-deserved healing started for others.

Issa wrote: "This is total personal brand protection. They backed a promising horse and it lost. Now time to dig in and protect their own interests. Makes a sort of business sense. I assume the key to that is a..."
I really think that is how they are justifying this. The SH persona was just " branding " while Marvin and Alicia were private people? Its just too unbelievable just from the Santino Hassell apology where he admits he is married but its " complicated ". I would expect the same shock the rest of us are feeling just from that admittance. I'm so glad I never did the patreon because I was almost nosy enough to do it because I felt like I might be missing out. Reading these stories breaks my heart so you have to be a pretty cold fish not to be affected by them.

ML Rhodes FB -- https://www.facebook.com/mlrhodeswriting

kelgar01 wrote: "ML Rhodes FB -- https://www.facebook.com/mlrhodeswriting"

I can't see her post, must be set to Friends Only? Could you provide a cap or copy&paste it?

via ML Rhodes FB page...

"I don't post very often, but after spending the past day reading through pages and pages of posts and comments and seeing all types of evidence across social media concerning the most recent catfishing event to befall our community, I feel compelled to speak up. I've never had any interaction with SH, nor have I read any of their books. But what I do have experience with IRL is being the victim of emotional manipulation, gaslighting, and bullying. The gut-wrenching realization that someone you trusted, someone you were close to, has played you, used you, twisted your words and actions against you, lied about and to you, purposely tried to make you feel insecure, maybe even dirty, and second-guess everything you've said and done...it's a nightmare no one should have to endure. The stories that are coming out from SH's victims are just unreal. The emotional manipulation, the backstabbing, the threats, the idea that intimate personal stories and interactions that came from the manipulations were being used in books is sickening. My heart hurts for all of the victims. Know this--you are not alone. And all of the people who endured months (in some cases years) of bullying and harassment, but who hung in there and persisted in getting these stories heard, paving the way to open the bigger community's eyes to what was happening...you're my heroes. "

kelgar01 wrote: "via ML Rhodes FB page...

"I don't post very often, but after spending the past day reading through pages and pages of posts and comments and seeing all types of evidence across social media concer..."

Thanks! That was well put.

Sam wrote: "Blaine wrote: "Sam wrote: "LenaLena wrote: "I think it is easy to not care if the writer is a woman or a bisexual man if you are a woman. However, if you are a bisexual man and you have this other ..."

Yes, it is the least relevant aspect of this mess. But it is an aspect that is nevertheless important, at least to me.

I purposely said 'women using a male penname', not 'all non cis-gay-men using a male penname'. Trans*men are men, not women. Non-binary people, genderqueer people: they are not women. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out, but I realize you don't know me, so I am spelling that out now. It is cishet women hiding their privilege to let people believe they are part of a marginalized group, that I find problematic. I am not opposed to them using initials or a gender neutral name, either, as long as it clear with minimal research that they're not actually queer men. I am also not opposed to cishet women using male pennames in genres like scifi or crime or pretty much any other genre, because that where they are a marginalized group hiding their marginalization in a sexist/racist industry. It is in M/M where they are the more privileged group hiding their privilege in order to falsely represent a marginalized group.

Trans* people, non-binary people, genderqueer people are marginalized groups that should do whatever they feel is needed to feel safe and claim whatever space they feel should be theirs. They have no privilege to hide. When it comes to privilege, unfortunately, they are often at the bottom of the barrel and the way they are treated, even in the queer community, is an effing disgrace.

All I am saying is that cishet women writing m/m under male pennames should wonder why they are comfortable letting gay men believe they are one of them, when they are not. There are plenty of women reading m/m and plenty of people of all genders willing to read m/m written by women. In fact women dominate the genre both as readers and writers. There is no need to falsely represent a group who needs true representation.

Amy wrote: "Karen Stivali's statement:
(still referring to "him" and not actually admitting to anything)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?stor..."

Didn't block anyone? I'm still blocked.

I’ll have to catch up here but first, thanks for making this thread, Susan. It seems to have been instrumental in getting a lot of people to listen or bring awareness to the situation.

Second, thank you to Nikki for being a relentless MoFo. ❤️

Third, I’m posting for someone who wishes to remain anonymous.

Their statement is, “I have a contact in the publishing world who has experience of LA Witt refusing to credit them for their work, just as SH did with his victims, so her apology doesn't ring true.”

I didn’t hear anything back from my contact at Berkley, but I sent her links to this thread and riptide’s statement (before dreamspinner posted theirs and before the fake apology from SH came out), and I said in it I wasn’t looking for a response but just wanted her to be aware, so we will see if anything happens at Penguin/Intermix

Well, Vanessa North is coming after me now for holding her responsible in SH's bullying and abuse.

I'm a Dreamspinner and Less Than Three author. I don't use Goodreads much, I admit, but I have read this entire thread plus the corroborating reports from Nikki, Sakura and the various hashtags on Twitter and Facebook. (I've never had any interaction with Santino Hassell or read books by that individual.)

I've seen a lot of catfishers in my time, and in my opinion, this is one of the *worst*. My heart goes out to all of you who have been treated so abysmally by Hassell. The lies about the cancer really kicked my gut, as I'm a full time caregiver for my mother, and she is a cancer survivor. Cancer is such a horrible thing, I have no doubt that most of us know someone that has had it. To elicit sympathy which led to money and gifts being sent is beyond the pale. Additionally to use that backstory of Hassell's life... well, I have words, but they're not polite.

I want to tell you all that I believe you, I hear you. I'm just a small fish in this great big pond of m/m, but I feel it's important to show support for you and, to be honest, admiration for your bravery for bringing these things to light and continuing to do so while being attacked by others. Now that the truth is known and the light has been shone into the dark, you are all amazing.

--L. J. LaBarthe.

Shelby wrote: "Vicky wrote: "Karen wrote: "Vicky wrote: "kelgar01 wrote: "Megan Derr's FB
https://www.facebook.com/meganaderr/p..."

I may have to try a new to me author ♥ Bought an..."

The second book is now out on audio as well...just sayin' :)

~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Well, Vanessa North is coming after me now for holding her responsible in SH's bullying and abuse."

😡😡😡😡

~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Well, Vanessa North is coming after me now for holding her responsible in SH's bullying and abuse."

Wow. I just went and looked at her post. I'm so sorry, Dani!! She is another one I will never read again.

SJ Himes posted on FB: https://www.facebook.com/sheena.j.him...

I'm trying to be sensitive, but these people with the I haven't read any of the posts, but how dare RT drop SH and everyone needs to back up off of SH because I haven't seen the proof posts are ridiculous. Y'all... you can google for free or follow the many links posted throughout this thread or on twitter and find out what's going on. There is so much out there and it's pretty easily accessible at this point. If you want to be willfully ignorant, it's on you.

Suzanne wrote: "I really hope L.A. Witt has changed her tune in light of the new info! I don’t want to add another author I enjoy to my never read list! I would be extremely disappointed with her!"

Lori apologized for her statement and posted today on Facebook.

Mainely wrote: "Lori apologized for her statement and posted today on Facebook."

And deleted her old statement :/

JenMcJ wrote: "Are any of these facebook posts public? I don't want to join any personal pages...is there a screenshot anywhere of what Leta and others posted?"

You can just read Riptide's post and Dreamspinner Press

I love that this thread is still going on, keeping the conversation alive.

I am frustrated by these statements by people close to Santino Hassell.

They are "tired". You know who's tired? Those of us who dealt with Santino's decimation of our reputations by lies told behind closed doors for years. And those of us glued to our computers for days waiting for some kind of message that ANYONE will take responsibility for their actions.

They are "processing all of this". You know who's processing all of this? Those of us on this thread who have had to put into words, into public spaces, the testament of our damaging treatment by Santino Hassell.

They were only standing up for a friend. You know who bullies and attacks people for things they only assumed were true about a friend they barely knew and refused to see the lies? *crickets* No one on this thread.

I am so VERY tired with these people making it about them. Trying to justify their actions. And NOT REALLY coming out and saying "I'm so fucking sorry. I was WRONG. Please forgive me. Can we find healing from this?"

^^^IS THAT SO FUCKING HARD?

Taking his name off your cover, removing your books from the shelves, does not make up for the bullying and vile treatment to people who tried to sound the alarm, people who merely asked questions, people who gave unfavorable reviews, people accused of things UNPROVEN but spoken viciously by Santino Hassell.

Why can't you just OWN it and REALLY apologize?

Aurora Lector wrote: "@ Kathleen, I made your list of names clickable:

"I've removed ratings for any books I've read written or co-written by the following authors:

Santino Hassell
[author:Megan Erick..."

Can someone also list all of L.A. Witt's various other pen names? I know I can't keep track of them all.

I've been following along with this post all week. I don't have a horse in this race. I tried one SH book and put it on my DNF shelf. This doesn't affect me. But it affects others in awful, horrible ways that I can't fathom having to live through and being strong enough to stand up and speak knowing you might not be believed. You are the heroes here, and I applaud everyone who has come out to share their stories, as well as those who have decided to remain silent or haven't yet come forward. You are heard and you are believed.

Hi Susan - wow thanks for letting me know - I don't care if you hide/create a new persona but to lie about being ill to get money and to attack your readers that is no bueno ...

Also, Susan, as you well know, many a time I broached this all ^^^ with you, sometimes vague sometimes less vague. But I never wanted to push. Maybe I should have, but I always felt listening to what you wanted to say was enough each time. I don't mention this to center myself; it's just to acknowledge I knew something was hinky and I knew you were hurting but wasn't quite sure how to help--so it's a *huge* relief and even joy to see you and others confront and process and start to heal from all this. <3

Amy wrote: "~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Well, Vanessa North is coming after me now for holding her responsible in SH's bullying and abuse."

Wow. I just went and looked at her post. I'm so ..."

where is this post at? I have not been able to find it.. why would she attack you Dani.. grrr

My heart goes out to the people who suffered the worst of Hassell's abuses. I was never close to them/her/him. As a reviewer I loved some books and hated others. I never suffered any reprisals for saying so. Or at least none I'm aware of. My initial concerns in this situation were over the fake medical claims. I had no idea at all there was emotional abuse and manipulation. I am sickened. I want to thank everyone who has spoken about this. I hate that this went on while I was blissfully ignorant. Please know, if you had to suffer through this the least I can do is read about it.

One thing I'd like to add is Sarah Lyons is NOT an author. She is an editor. If there is an author with a similar name please do not get her involved in this.

Evil Cat wrote: "Okay, so this might turn in to a rant. Because these kind of arguments piss me the hell off and are part of the way Sonny Santino Alicia Marvin Mike Hassell played a lot of us.."

Rant away, Kate. I've missed your rants! It feels like the good old days with all these old friends crawling back out of the goodreads woodworks, myself included.

Personally, I do think there is such a thing as situational ethics. As a white woman, I'm not going to use the N-word. When my son's black friend uses it, I am going to apply a different standard. However, if that same boy is being misogynist, I'm not going to let that slide. Just because you're marginalized, doesn't mean you get to be shitty to other people. I think we agree on that.

I see your point that if we apply different ethics to different groups, we create wiggle room that gets abused by shitheads. But if we don't allow for the complexities of different situations, it is going to be the marginalized groups that are going to carry the heaviest burden of that. Like when Facebook was going to require everyone to use their real name, which is fine for you and me. It was not fine for trans* people, it was not fine for people escaping abusive relationships, etc. They were going to be the ones suffering under that rule. So yes, being able to use a fake name on Facebook leaves wiggle room for shitheads like Sonny. But just because some assholes abuse the system doesn't mean it's better to get rid of the system or to make blanket rules.

Where we agree is that just because you're in marginalized group, you don't get a pass on being nasty to other people. Just because you're TJ Klune, doesn't mean you get to spew misogynistic bullshit in Tell Me It's Real. You don't get a pass on being trans-phobic if you're gay. or racist if you're trans*. That is the blanket ethical rule I can totally get behind.

Sonny manipulated people not so much with a "welcome to my marginalized circle" I think (although there was certainly some of that), as much as a "welcome to my select group of intimate friends, you are so special". I wonder about the actual number of people s/he played that game with. It's got to be in the dozens, from what I've seen so far...

LenaLena wrote: "I wonder about the actual number of people s/he played that game with. It's got to be in the dozens, from what I've seen so far..."

Feels like so many it's kind of amazing they managed to find time to write.

Daniel wrote: "LenaLena wrote: "I wonder about the actual number of people s/he played that game with. It's got to be in the dozens, from what I've seen so far..."

Feels like so many it's kind of amazing they ma..."

Well, as Kate said, it's been 8+ years... I think s/he 'handled' only a handful of people at a time, then ghosted them when they were no longer needed.

I want to mention a few things that were raised in a DM here.

I am the Daniel who formatted most of SHs self-pub stuff. I don't say that for any sympathy, all I lost was some time helping a "friend".

At some point a year or 2 back, one of SHs so-called doxxer/stalkers (according to SH) tweeted a pic of me the apparent implication being I might be the real SH, or at least that is how I interpreted it at the time. I laughed and thought no more about it.

But someone reminded me that SH sometimes sent fake photos to people and now I am wondering if that was not the connection between the tweet of my pic and SH, so... while I don't like to do this, I am going to temporarily use a real photo here so anyone here he might have used it on can see. It's an older photo and one he'd have had access to. There's an awful selfie from today in other photos if you must see. I am not aware of SH having used my photo, but who the hell knows what they did.

First off thank you Susan for this thread. I only stumbled upon it because someone I follow just updated all their reviews for SH books with a link to it. It has been an interesting and eye-opening read. I have lots of thoughts but as a person who is not affected and not part of this community I have kept those to myself however it reminded me of another thread that I came across the same way.

I kept thinking of a blog post I read because of that in which there was a flow chart for ethics and social media for authors. It was quite good and perhaps someone here is smart enough to find it. The poorly behaving author was Missy Welsh. I think she was not named directly in the blog post but it was linked to on GR in relation to her/(him). I think it was a good discussion tool for authors and readers alike, and fits well with the most recent posts.

And since I did decide to post I will put in my 2 cents that all of you who were affected by this deserve better apologies. I would think a half way decent author could manage something better than "I'm so sad and exhausted". Similarly the editor at Riptide seems to have not bothered. "She ... apologizes" is not at all the same as "I apologize".

MizTia wrote: "Sorry, I wanted to add that cat fishers often don't stop. They'll go away for a while and once some time has passed and the dust settled another author/artist/creator etc will pop up under a new id..."

I never heard of Gage but I only came into the QAF fandom in 2010. We had a big blowout around 2013 - have you still been there then? Two male authors who entertained yohoo groups and intense friendships with their female fandom members for 8 or so years, came together as a couple at some point, adopted a kid, and thn one day word came out that a woman had died, age around 65, retired, and her sister was surprised to find her dead sister obviously having an internet persona, no: two, who both wrote fan fiction and had personal virtual relationships. What a drama...

Fecking hell! Let me preface this with that, like several here, I do not have much of an axe to grind with regard to Hassell. After I didn't really like "Evenfall" in 2014 I merely got an arrogant brush-off, which I shrugged at. The book was so fanficcy and so far outside of my tastes that I promptly forgot all about Hassell and never looked closer. Until a few days ago I was even quite unaware that they were some m/m-romance "id" entity. I'm not on Twitter or FB either, mainly GR and mainly for reading and reviewing.

What I noticed, though, was that fewer and fewer of the people I enjoyed interacting with, people who posted nifty reviews and spoke intelligently about books I was interested in, were on GR. I noticed them leaving or going private or falling silent. There are more than a dozen of them here in this thread! I've been following it for days now, and the realisation that one idiot with a god complex and a very nasty mindset is responsible for the fact that a lot of people I valued and cherished and loved reading about here on GR left and were silenced, is quite a shocking one.

I am happy for everyone who spoke up here, and I want to thank Susan for posting this thread. This thread is a fabulous success for you all.

Oh, and I don't think it can be denied that between freely choosing one's pen name or pseud, whether queer or other, and catfishing people with a cancer hoax and abusing their background history for plotting are worlds. That's not even in the same ballpark. The first is quite okay and a traditional thing for authors to do, the other is unconscionable behaviour.

Just have to say this. Half-assed apologies are still half-assed. Half an ass is just a pain. I've seen one genuine apology thus far, and it was from Courtney Milan. That's literally about it.