Geoff > Status Update

David wrote: "A lot of mainstream Republicans have hated Trump from the beginning, for both good and bad reasons. One of the bad reasons is that he's perceived as not hawkish enough."

There are so many reasons to hate Trump! If he's found murdered in his bed tomorrow morning, it'll be Orient Express 2.

PS E.g. check out this page.

the gift wrote: "unless we decide cia, fbi, nsa, are all politically motivated fantasists, there is no other credible source of judgment.."

How about the echo chamber effect for explanation? It worked in the case of Iraq's WMD. A kind of Goebbels lite to put it bluntly.

I don't know, but even if there is conclusive proof of Russian influence, how does that change the fact that Americans (including the electoral college) voted in Trump? Is there someone out there claiming that Russians hacked into the very voting system??

At the end of the day this is an American problem and even if there is clear proof of Russian meddling, Americans can't really do anything about it to make the Russians pay. One reason is that Americans are not wont to show proof of their findings and Russians on their part would always deny it.

In the end Putin still wins while Americans bicker among themselves.

Jibran wrote: "the gift wrote: "unless we decide cia, fbi, nsa, are all politically motivated fantasists, there is no other credible source of judgment.."

How about the echo chamber effect for explanation? It wo..."

Jibran, you are always so sensible!

Agreed: even though I'm sure the Russians helped things along, the main culprit is the good old US electorate. At least, the portion of it that hasn't been deprived of its vote in one way or another.

The people attacked yesterday were all comrades - memebers of IWW, DSA, and ISO. These groups are all against the blame Russia narrative & yet their members are the ones being targeted by Trump supporters.

So yeah, if you think xenophobic paranoia is a form of 'resistance'... you are mistaken.

David, I don't think you've been looking very carefully at Trump's history of attempted pro-Russia interventions. You're placing too much weight on the fact that people have so far managed to stop him.

Bombing Syria was an executive decision. I'm confused when liberals complain that he warned Russia first. Like, are you hoping for world war 3 or what?

David wrote: "Bombing Syria was an executive decision. I'm confused when liberals complain that he warned Russia first. Like, are you hoping for world war 3 or what?"

If there had been more of a follow-up to the Syria bombing, or in general more things of that nature, I would have started to wonder. As things stand, it's a convenient example to pull out when people ask whether Trump always does what Putin wants. It seemed to me to be a minimal attack with very little in the way of consequences: basically a PR exercise.

The extreme reluctance to support NATO or continue sanctions seems to me far more significant.

^ Not to mention the equivocation on Ukraine. Or being so blase about the expulsion of American diplomats. He's not at all someone who is willing to hold back when he disagrees with someone. Why is he going to such lengths to defend Putin?

Good point - really a lot of things to put in the scale pan opposite the mostly symbolic Syrian cruise missiles.

And it's not just because Putin is powerful. Xi is at least as powerful, and Trump often acts tough with him. The contrast is rather striking.

Manny wrote: "Good point - really a lot of things to put in the scale pan opposite the mostly symbolic Syrian cruise missiles."

'mostly symbolic'

- maybe next time it will be a real holocaust of brown bodies and you'll get your wish.

David wrote: "So yeah, if you think xenophobic paranoia is a form of 'resistance'... you are mistaken."

The 'xenophobic' remark is really reaching. As someone who's studied Russian because of my interest in the culture, I'm pretty sure I can distinguish between the Russian people and their murderous government.

i worry about assumptions of institutional bias as much as the next aware person- but the answer is to critically engage the given rather than simply dismiss it. by this i do not mean finding sources that agree to initial prejudice who claim conspiracy theories where the simplest answer is to judge evidence however gathered and promoted. if you want your positions unthinkingly amplified, that is what Fox News is for.

Mike wrote: "David wrote: "So yeah, if you think xenophobic paranoia is a form of 'resistance'... you are mistaken."

The 'xenophobic' remark is really reaching. As someone who's studied Russian because of my i..."

wasn't necessarily directed at you. You were willing to acknowledge claims 1) and 2) are false. I appreciate it.

but clearly the hype around the Russian story traffics in stereotypes and fears around the "Russians" and what those diabolical people are capable of.

I mean, look at the garbage coming from one prominent, mainstream pusher of the story

https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status...

David wrote: "I mean, look at the garbage coming from one prominent, mainstream pusher of the story

https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status......"

Well yeah, people shouldn't be posting stuff like that, because it makes it rhetorically easier to try to dismiss the accusations with merit, if you're so inclined. But I'm pretty sure Mueller isn't taking months to figure out the identities of Trump's ex-wives.

Can I ask you something though, honestly? & I'm sorry if this looks like whataboutism...
'
Why is the alleged, still entirely hypothetical collusion between Trump and Russia considered so much more important than the totally above board, well documented collusion between this administration (& past administrations) with the Saudis? why, in the eyes of most liberals, is an email hack from over a year ago a much bigger deal than ongoing genocide in Yemen? I mean, given the realities of American power I just can't see the Russian story as anything but an obscene ideological distraction

For reference

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/...

David wrote: "Manny wrote: "Good point - really a lot of things to put in the scale pan opposite the mostly symbolic Syrian cruise missiles."

'mostly symbolic'

- maybe next time it will be a real holocaust of brown bodies and you'll get your wish."

David, all I'm wishing for here is some kind of evidence that Trump is really willing to cross Putin.

Not xenophobic. I have many Russian friends, and if you look at my shelves you'll see that Garry Kasparov is one of my heroes. I just hate Putin, though less than he does.

David wrote: "Can I ask you something though, honestly? & I'm sorry if this looks like whataboutism...
'
Why is the alleged, still entirely hypothetical collusion between Trump and Russia considered so much more..."

Indeed, Trump's relationship with the Saudis is another major reason to be appalled by him. I'm sorry, there are so many of them that it's hard to keep track.

And you agree that's it's continuous with Obama's policy and likely the same as Clinton's would have been?

It's just an unconscionably bigger deal than whoever hacked that email.

It matters what get payed attention to and what's considered important. The Russian bs just fundamentally doesn't matter.

The Russia hack (and, even more, the strongly suspected Russian financial backing) matters because we've now ended up with a person in the White House who on top of being dishonest, incompetent and several apples short of a picnic is also under the thumb of one of the world's most ruthless and dangerous people.

Unfortunately, we'll never know what Hillary Clinton would have done about Saudi Arabia/Yemen. I very much doubt it would have been worse than what we're seeing.

Negative. You already acknowledge above (in reply to Jibran) that even if Russia did hack the DNC that was not the decisive factor in how the election turned out.

The Clinton Foundation accepted millions of dollars in donations from the Saudis. They're not stupid. They wouldn't have done that if they weren't confident of getting something in return.

Since the end of the Cold War (and before, incidentally) the US has bombed/invaded many more countries than Russia under either Yeltsin or Putin.

David wrote: "Negative. You already acknowledge above (in reply to Jibran) that even if Russia did hack the DNC that was not the decisive factor in how the election turned out.

The Clinton Foundation accepted m..."

Sure, Trump isn't just beholden to Putin. As we just saw, he also owes the white supremacists.

US policy towards the Saudis has been dysfunctional (to put it politely) for a long time. This is a different issue.

Agree with you on white supremacists. They do seem to be his base.

From today's New York Times:

Let’s discard the fiction that President Trump wasn’t placating white supremacists by responding so weakly to the neo-Nazi violence that killed Heather Heyer, a 32-year-old counterdemonstrator in Charlottesville, Va., on Saturday. The neo-Nazis heard his message loud and clear.

“He didn’t attack us,” crowed The Daily Stormer, a white supremacist website, about Mr. Trump’s statement after the two days of racist demonstrations. “Refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.”

Piece of shit.

Yup.

In case you missed Gabriel Sherman's tweet:

When I asked senior WH official why Trump didn't condemn Cville Nazis, he said: "What about the leftist mob. Just as violent if not more so"

On thinking more about it, I see your point of view better. This stuff, and selling hundreds of billions of dollars of arms to the Saudis, is worse than accepting help from Putin.

On the other hand, consider that it would be feasible to impeach Trump for colluding with the Russians, whereas it almost certainly wouldn't be feasible to impeach him for representing the white supremacist movement, helping the Saudis kill millions of people in Yemen, and generally being a piece of shit. Remember that they got Al Capone on his taxes.

America needs a reboot. Alt-Right-Delete.

I can say...I am ashamed of my country. I mean....we have an incompetent narcissist as our leader. How did this happen?

Thr whole email hack/ Putin/ Hillary Clinton scandal crap os just a smoke screen, I think. I mean look at us now! Didn't we fight to rid thr world of the Hitlers and Mussolinis of the world? And now we have them right here in our back yard!! And what happened to disarming all the nuclear warheads around the world. Now we have crazy people trying to blow up missiles on innocent people.

Oh..and we are stil waiting for Trump's tax returns!!

Hi Catherine! Well, at least he is better for the world than Bush jr. ever was.

Catherine wrote: "I can say...I am ashamed of my country. I mean....we have an incompetent narcissist as our leader. How did this happen?

Thr whole email hack/ Putin/ Hillary Clinton scandal crap os just a smoke s..."

Exercise for the reader: in which order is Trump intending to do the following?

A. Start nuclear war.
B. Find Hillary's missing emails.
C. Fire Mueller.
D. Take away 22 million people's healthcare and give the money saved to his rich friends.
E. Release tax returns.
F. Take action against the white supremacist movement.
H. Play more golf.

Matt wrote: "America needs a reboot. Alt-Right-Delete."

Unfortunately, I think Trump hit Alt-Right-Ctrl instead.

@Geoff: Well, good Monday morning to you, too. *sarcasm* Thanks for voicing your hate-filled political opinion on a BOOK REVIEW WEBSITE.

What do you hope to accomplish with that hateful attitude? You're overreacting and embarrassing yourself. Take a breath and slow down. There may be a serious problems to deal with in today's world, but getting hysterical won't help anything.

Be a better example to the youth of today. You can start by watching your language online. There are 13-year-olds (minors) here that don't need to see your f-bombs.

Becky ♡The Bookworm♡ wrote: "@Geoff: Well, good Monday morning to you, too. *sarcasm* Thanks for voicing your hate-filled political opinion on a BOOK REVIEW WEBSITE.

What do you hope to accomplish with that hateful attitude?..."

Becky, is it your opinion that books have nothing to do with politics? Just curious.

And yes, I agree. One should be able to point out that the US is being led by a white supremacist sympathizer without using bad language. Kids, just call Trump a fascist! There's no need to put a rude word in front of the noun, it's offensive enough as it is.

Manny wrote: "There's no need to put a rude word in front of the noun, it's offensive enough as it is. "

Says the man who is coauthor of a peer-reviewed conference paper which cites an xkcd cartoon ;)

Yes, but I'm a linguist, I'm allowed to do it in a scientific context. It's like when the doctor tells you to take your clothes off it's not rape.

Quod licet linguist, non licet bovi.

Exactly. When Zeus turns himself into a golden shower, it's not kompromat.

Is it not a usual procedure for the US president to be the commander? Weren't Obama and Clinton ones? I don't know and I'm lazy to google it so I'm asking.

The guy was elected by the other half of the US voters. Is it not reasonable to respect their choise?

And as for the half of the US that lost a year ago this election, promising doom and gloom to the universe - where are the promised doom and gloom? No wars are going on (unlike with Bush and Obama and Clinton), America's standing well. And Mr Trump seems quite adequate even though he gets sabotaged each step of the way.

Altogether it seems that the US population have forgotten what democracy means. Let me remind you: it's not about what you and your neighbours want, or I like, or my dog prefers. It's about the majority of voters, stratified in accordance with the US election laws. And if the majority of the US is impoverished, then it's a big issue of what the freak did the prevopus POTUSes did wrong and why.

And the stuff about Russian involvement is weak. Nobody, including intelligence worldwide, believes it or can prove it. Their published reports are centered on Russian TV research (which, I'm sure, many American citizens watch... not) and trolls research, which is plain funny.

@Becky - I'm not hanging around goodreads much these days - got a lot on my plate, as the saying goes - but figured I'd drop in and respond to you since you addressed me directly. Of all the obscenities of the Trump era, my use of the word 'fuck' seems slight to a degree barely worth mentioning. I've been on this website for a decade or so, been writing profane reviews of profane books for a good part of that time, and have found a lovely corner of GR where politics are open for discussion, where censorship is not tolerated, where adults can come to discuss literature, art, and the political and cultural movements of the day, in whatever language suits them.. Let's call it classic cafe culture in the digital realm. As for Trump, I meet obscenity with obscenity. I will continue to discuss politics, use profanity, broach any topic I feel like, in whatever terms I choose. You came to my corner of goodreads and not vice versa. If you do not like me, block me. I won't feel a thing, and your mind can be at ease. For the rest of you, carry on.

Geoff wrote: "@Becky - I'm not hanging around goodreads much these days - got a lot on my plate, as the saying goes - but figured I'd drop in and respond to you since you addressed me directly. Of all the obscen..."

Hear, hear.

Misericordia wrote: "And the stuff about Russian involvement is weak. Nobody, including intelligence worldwide, believes it or can prove it. Their published reports are centered on Russian TV research (which, I'm sure, many American citizens watch... not) and trolls research, which is plain funny. "

Congress clearly believes it. The House passed the latest sanctions bill 419-3 and the Senate 98-2. It doesn't get much more one-sided than that.

Misericordia wrote: "Is it not a usual procedure for the US president to be the commander? Weren't Obama and Clinton ones? I don't know and I'm lazy to google it so I'm asking.

The guy was elected by the other half o..."

'stratified in accordance with the US election laws' - lol; stratified, that certainly is le mot juste, is it the one you meant?

Hey, Misericordia, I just noticed that your profile says you're Russian! Well, isn't that 2017 in a nutshell: Russians lecturing Americans on the meaning of democracy. Keep up the good work.

Someone who repeatedly deletes his own account is accusing others of censoring him

The idea that the worst thing about a nuclear strike on North Korea is that it would enable unethical business practice...

That pretty much distills why the Russian narrative is a distraction.