Rothfussians discussion
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Philosophical musings on Yllish dual ownership
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Interesting... I'll have to give this close consideration. At a glance, you might be onto something.
Mod
I'm going to take some time also...to mull this over in my own head.
Another great idea, Eric!
I posted this on Reddit and somebody also mentioned that the third Silence belongs to Kvothe at the Waystone. Which obviously has implications of it's own.
Could the silence be Kvothe's sign? I'm trying to pull the passage from my mind- I recall thinking there was something odd about how it was written.
Interesting idea.. Could have something to do with the kote-to-kvothe situation if Kvothe have some significant property in that chest he cant get into.. like the shaed or his lute e.g. ..
But it is a bit of a stretch imo.. If Rothfuss was trying to tip us off, wouldnt he have used a better example?
As a grammatical rule it seems nonsensical, since you cant constantly change the name of a person in relation to what socks he own..That would be impractical to the extent of being impossible.. So that might be a point for your theory..
But thanks for sharing this, it will be one of the things to keep in mind when i do my next reread..
Servius Heiner wrote: "Could the silence be Kvothe's sign? I'm trying to pull the passage from my mind- I recall thinking there was something odd about how it was written."Are you saying that Kvothe is one of the Chandrian? I know Chronicler mentions to Kvothe that some people say there is a new Chandrian with red hair...that would be one hell of a catch if the silence is Kvothe's sign
Not necessarily one of the chandrian... but of the same breed if that makes sense. Yin and yang you know? Sorry If I am not articulating this well. It seems the signs of the Chandrian are by designe to punish the bearer. Kvothe, Lived for music- now all he can do is hum a little tune... sounds like punishment to me. Additionally, in the description of the inn (the silence of three parts) PR makes a point of describing how even the tussling trees were silent. Not really a blue flame, but rotten wood, rusted iron. these seem to be area affects. I know it is thin but there you have it.
When there are natural ambient sounds you cant hear the third silence... I don't know I'm spinning in the mud here.
Mod
It's what really got me thinking about the chandrian possibly NOT being ALL bad. I mean, Kvothe has his good and bad sides, just like everyone. I imagine the same of the Chandrian at this point.
I think another point for Eric's theory is that obviously true names have duel ownership as well, since when Kvothe changed to Kote, he was not the same, and clearly cannot use the same skill set for unknown reasons.
That could explain Elodin's distress at the suggestion of changing someone's true name. That really has me wondering WHY someone would change their true name...but thats probably a whole new discussion point. I dont know...I think it's viable.
I dont personally think Rothfuss would use a CLEAR example to tip us off, he's like the ultimate in double speak, IMO. I feel like he tries to lead you down a path and then blow your mind, like, see...things arent always as they seem.
I feel like a huge theme in his novels is to not take things at face value and do your own investigation into matters.
That being said, if this duel ownership thing doesnt come about in his story, it would be a great thing or magical property to add into your own story Eric, if you ever wrote one. I think it's an awesome idea either way.
Mod
Good catch on the "area effect" and I agree that all the chandrian are somehow being punished.
I think someone actually did a decent break down of that somewhere on these boards.
Outside of that, we know that Kvothe changed his true name and so did Lanre...maybe all the chandrian had their true names changed and that leads some sort of duality within oneself....
Encanis is just another name for Lanre. Trapis story says Tehlu chased Encanis, who came to a great city and brought it to ruin. Then for six days Encanis ran and destroyed six great cities. But on the seventh day Tehlu caught Encanis before he could destroy the seventh city. It's Skarpi's story told from the church's perspective.
Mod
I think the Yllish dual ownership is very important. Consider for a moment Kvothe's sword. The adamant warnings not to mess with the sword's name by Magwyn when he is learning the Atas. Despite those warnings, he always refers to the sword as Caesura, not Saicere. His sword is one of the kinds of artifacts Kilvin describes, Old Magic. The Atas is a 1st person dialogue by the sword. Which reminds me of the type of awareness of the Faen realm, Kvothe notices while with Felurian. Kvothe's Ketan isn't especially good. But when Vashet hands him Saicere, there becomes a shift in his Ketan. He compares himself to Penthe. This is where the Yllish concept adds a deeper understanding to the relationship between Kvothe & his sword. I also believe it is no coincidence that Chancellor Herma falls ill while teaching Kvothe Yllish. And despite much online discussion, I am unconvinced that it is not Saicere behind the bar. Although, another alternate, I could get behind is Lanre's sword. Do we know what happened to Lanre's sword? Is Haliax carrying a sword when mentioned? In Skarpi's story, I think yes. When Kvothe sees him, I'm not so sure.
What if shaping was changing a things name? Which in turn changed the nature of it, or what it was?It would be logical then that Lanre foolishly changed his name to give himself power, but corrupted himself in the process.
I don't know, just an idea I'm working on.
Mod
Wow, Xandra. Just, wow. I totally missed that... in the text or in any discussion. I've been trying to avoid rereading sections, but you've ruined everything!
Mod
Looking quickly, there's nothing suggesting his Ketan gets demonstrably better, but there's some more special relationship with Saicere stuff.
And there's:
"“It will perhaps offset his name,” [Vashet] said."
Kvothe's name, Maedre, means thunder/flame/broken tree while Saicere means to break/to catch/to fly. There's some real resonance I don't believe many folk have looked at in earnest. Each has a conjugation of break, catch/fire could be a link, thunder/fly could even be a sideways Chandrian (strike like lightning from a clear blue sky) nod. I really don't know. Just some first thoughts.
Should prolly thank Eric for hir other two threads for being part of this soup.
I also think it's interesting that he used an old Vintish ballad to help him memorize Saicere's Atas. It's not Eld Vintic per say, the text just says old. Not sure if old & Eld are interchangeable. But I do think it's an interesting tidbit in terms of the King, Killed.
Mod
Not sure if old & Eld are interchangeable. But I do think it's an interesting tidbit in terms of the King, Killed."
I'm looking, on and off, at secondary correspondences for that. Thanks for pointing it out.
If he is a Chandrian, then it must be true that silence is his sign. I dont want him to be Chandrian, but if he is, this is perfect.
Silence is also central to the teachings of Lethani.
Xandra wrote: "Silence is also central to the teachings of Lethani."
An amazing point. You made me smile.
An amazing point. You made me smile.
I wrote a bunch of stuff about Kvothe's name Maedre a while back. Still have to right something about the elements. Concepts I have of wind & fire being characters in their own right.
Maedre is a name I always struggle with understanding. Now I have to go find your work. :)
This discussion reminded me of a book I read a long time ago, Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones: Freeing the Writer Within. The relevant passage:Our language is usually locked into a sentence syntax of subject/verb/direct-object. There is a subject acting on an object. "I see the dog"—with this sentence structure, "I" is the center of the universe. We forget in our language structure that while "I" looks at "the dog," "the dog" is simultaneously looking at us. It is interesting to note that in the Japanese language the sentence would say, "I dog seeing." There is an exchange or interaction rather than a subject acting on an object.
Maybe Rothfuss has read Writing Down the Bones—it's a pretty popular writing book. Either way, it's neat that the Yllish structure has something of a parallel in the real world.
Mod
From Wise Man's Fears, Chapter 146, Failures:
All ownership was oddly dual: as if the Chancellor owned his socks, but at the same time the socks somehow also gained ownership of the Chancellor. This altered the use of both words in complex grammatical ways. As if the simple act of owning socks somehow fundamentally changed the nature of a person.
Relevant portion bolded.
Now, this could simply be grammatical silliness, but it could also be indicative of how they view the world and the objects in them.
This places an interesting highlight on Auri's conversations and the objects she gives to Kvothe. But aside from that...
What fascinated me was in Skarpi's story of Drossen Tor, Lanre dies killing 'a great black beast with scales of black iron, whose breath was a darkness that smothered men'.
The next time we see Lanre is in Myr Tariniel during the betrayal:
He came alone, wearing his silver sword and haubergeon of black iron scales. His armor fit him closely as a second skin of shadow. He had wrought it from the carcass of the beast he had killed at Drossen Tor.
He created a set of armor from the beast that killed him. I don't know what significance that might hold, but depending on the nature of the beast (if it wasn't simply a Draccus) it's possible that this dual ownership had powerful consequences. I also find it interesting how similarly the beast is described in Skarpi's story to how Encanis is described by Trapis (Encanis, whose face was all in shadow. Encanis, whose voice was like a knife in the minds of men). Encanis could easily be a demon that Lanre killed, but by wearing it's skin became it? Just a thought.
It could also have large implications for Kvothe, who is in possession of a sword that is not originally his. If it belongs to Haliax or one of the Chandrian, just think of the effects dual ownership could have on him (leaving the possibility that he needs to cast away the sword or something else).