2012 - October - "Enemy at the Gates" by William Craig

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "David A wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi David, I think there were two 'waves' of purges, the information at this link may be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purge_of......"

Well that's what I was thinking too Aussie Rick. Small matter in the context of the book I suppose. Thanks for the link.

[David A]

I could never understand why Paulus delayed for 3 days the run south to meet up with Hoth's 4th panzer army and catch the 62nd and 64th Red Armies in a pincer outside Stalingrad on the steppe. Another of my fav "what if's" of WW II

[David A]

I think just too cautious. To be fair though he was being harassed by the red army from his north. Probably made him cautious of rushing his forces south. What do you think?

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I tend to agree David, throughout Enemy at the Gates he comes across as a very cautious commander and not one to cross higher HQ or the Fuhrer. It's almost like he wants/needs someone else to make the decision for him.....

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is an interesting link to a site covering numerous aspects of the Battle for Stalingrad including aerial photographs, maps, battlefield relics, etc:

http://www.stalingrad-info.com/

And another Stalingrad web site:

http://www.stalingrad.net/

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I tend to agree David, throughout Enemy at the Gates he comes across as a very cautious commander and not one to cross higher HQ or the Fuhrer. It's almost like he wants/needs someone else to make ..."

Well Aussie Rick, I think he was more cautious then subservient to hitler because he didn't follow Hitler's instruction to fight to the last in Stalingrad but surrendered his army so as to save his men (even though so few managed to survive).

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is an interesting link to a site covering numerous aspects of the Battle for Stalingrad including aerial photographs, maps, battlefield relics, etc:

http://www.stalingrad-info.com/

And anoth..."

Excellent resources Aussie Rick. Thanks.

[Brian]

I was taken aback by the figure of 800,000 Axis soldiers ded in the previous year.

I tried researching and quickly learned that estimates of causalities varies wildly, plus the precise "parsing" (period, German versus Axis, combat versus POW and so on) make it even more difficult. Still, the highest KIA Axis number I found for the Eastern Front through June 1945 (including outside Russia) was 4 million. So the 800,000 in first 12 months seems high.

My first real foray into the Eastern front. Any thoughts / insights from those of you who are more knowledgeable than I?

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I will need to check a few of my books when I get home from work tonight Brian but the link below provides some very good information in regards to German casualties during WW2. Check out the sub paragraph; B. Monthly Field Army (Feldheer) casualties September 1939 to November 1944, under the heading; OKW Casualty Statistics published by the West German government. It breaks down the casualties by year & month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_c...

However this only list German casualties and none of the other Axis forces. I will need to do some more research once I get home.

[David A]

Brian wrote: "I was taken aback by the figure of 800,000 Axis soldiers ded in the previous year.

I tried researching and quickly learned that estimates of causalities varies wildly, plus the precise "parsing" ..."

Hi Brian. I thought that figure was very high as well. However I think it might include those who succumbed to the Russian winter as well as those who died that winter as well as those actually killed during battle.

[David A]

This interesting article says 3 million German soldiers died in the east and each year more remains are being recovered.

http://m.spiegel.de/international/ger...

"Some 3 million German soldiers died in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe in World War II, and the fate of hundreds of thousands of them remains unknown to their relatives and descendants."

[Brian]

Thanks Aussie Rick and David A. I had read the OKW stats along with a mumber of other sources. The enormity of casualties on both sides is staggering. Perhaps my head scratching was over fact that I believed Germans fared well in the first year in Russia.

[David A]

Brian wrote: "Thanks Aussie Rick and David A. I had read the OKW stats along with a mumber of other sources. The enormity of casualties on both sides is staggering. Perhaps my head scratching was over fact that..."

I know Brian. The casualty figures are staggering. It's all the more amazing given that the Germans crossed the Don with such confidence of a swift victory.

[happy]

I can believe it. When we lived in Germany in the early 70's ('70-'73)- there was a noticable difference in the numbers of men and women in that age group (40-60 roughly) that you would see on the streets. Woman far out numbered men.

[David A]

happy wrote: "I can believe it. When we lived in Germany in the early 70's - there was a noticable diffence in the numbers of men and women in that age group that you would see on the streets. Woman far out nu..."

Happy, that's something I've often thought about, the effect on the immediately following generation in the sense that was there a noticeable gap etc etc in the age. I'm sure it was noticeable in towns villages and hamlets after the war for many years.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

happy wrote: "I can believe it. When we lived in Germany in the early 70's ('70-'73)- there was a noticable difference in the numbers of men and women in that age group (40-60 roughly) that you would see on the..."

This is an interesting subject but I haven't found anything in what you'd describe as "popular" history to read on the subject.

This one is about women in Britain after World War One by Virginia Nicholson so if anyone knows of a similar study especially for Germany I'd be interested.

I have this at home to read and this may start to shed some light too

by Jill Stephenson

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

In a recent book I read; Kiev 1941 the author states that Germany had almost crippled it's panzer arm by the stage of this battle due to casualties and breakdowns.

by David Stahel

[David A]

My God Lieutenant Wilhelm Kreiser had a lucky escape on his 26th birthday (view spoiler)[ "While he sat in a chair, a Russian tank fired a shell that went between his legs and on into the next room. " (hide spoiler)]

[David A]

(Page 144, 1972 coroner edition) This sums up perfectly hitler's attitude to his soldiers. (view spoiler)[ "A few feet away, a hospital train marked time, and from their tiered cots, wounded soldiers peered into the blazing light of the dining room where Hitler was immersed in conversation. Suddenly he looked up at the awed faces staring in at him. In great anger he ordered the curtains drawn, plunging his wounded warriors back into the darkness of their own bleak world." (hide spoiler)]

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

David A wrote: "(Page 144, 1972 coroner edition) This sums up perfectly hitler's attitude to his soldiers. [spoilers removed]"

A very sad spectacle indeed, his wounded soldiers deserved something more eh! A taste of the future for what Germany could expect from their leader and his cronies.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

David A wrote: "My God Lieutenant Wilhelm Kreiser had a lucky escape on his 26th birthday [spoilers removed]"

A very lucky escape indeed, I bet he jumped up off that chair in a hurry and gave himself a good checking over!

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "David A wrote: "My God Lieutenant Wilhelm Kreiser had a lucky escape on his 26th birthday [spoilers removed]"

A very lucky escape indeed, I bet he jumped up off that chair in a hurry and gave hims..."

U can bet ur bottom dollar he did Aussie Rick

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "David A wrote: "(Page 144, 1972 coroner edition) This sums up perfectly hitler's attitude to his soldiers. [spoilers removed]"

A very sad sceptical indeed, his wounded soldiers deserved something ..."

Exactly.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Brian wrote: "Thanks Aussie Rick and David A. I had read the OKW stats along with a mumber of other sources. The enormity of casualties on both sides is staggering. Perhaps my head scratching was over fact that..."

Hi Brian, I checked out two books in my library to see if I can find more information in regards to Germanys combat losses on the Eastern Front for 1941. From the book; The Russian Front: Germany's War in the East 1941-45 edited by James F. Dunnigan (1978).

".... A more important statistic was a total of 113,620 frost-bite cases in 1941 and a total of 775,078 casualties of all types."

This of course does not count any casualties suffered by other Axis forces in Russia during this period.

(no cover) The Russian Front: Germany's War In The East, 1941 45 by James F. Dunnigan

In the book Kiev 1941, David Stahel states; "Overall figures for German casualties in the east until 16 September were approaching half a million men and constituted 14 per cent of the entire Ostheer. In total some 460, 169 soldiers and non-commissioned officers had been killed or wounded, while another 16,383 officers had been lost. These figures, however, do not include those listed as sick..... This would have raised the total number of German troops deemed unfit for service to well over half a million, constituting a sizeable portion of the initial 3.4 million strong invasion force."

by David Stahel

[David A]

I really forgot how great a read this book is. Haven't read it in few years so am v happy to be back into the thick of it

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Same here David. I was a bit worried that I wouldn't enjoy it as much as when I first read it back in the late 1970's since so many other great books have come out since covering Stalingrad. However his use of first-hand accounts from the soldiers who fought at Stalingrad keep you turning the pages eh! Even though it's been around for a while I don't think it has been bettered as a good general account of the battle.

[David A]

Have to agree Aussie Rick. However with other books since his book it does suffer from poor mappage so to speak. Hard to follow the soviet counter offensive without good maps. I have however a few maps saved on websites which I have to refer to. But still a great read. Love following the first hand accounts of those who were there. Glad ur enjoying it as much as I am.

[David A]

And as it's now 3.10am here in Ireland, I better close it and get sum sleep :(

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

What did other readers think of the account of the hanging of Sacha Fillipov on pages 285 - 286, Chapter Twenty-three (HB edition):

(view spoiler)[.... Their task accomplished, the German soldiers formed ranks and marched away. The Russian witnesses scattered silently into the gloom, and Brianskaya Street suddenly was deserted except for the three children dangling in the wind and Mrs. Fillipov, who moved to her son's body. She listened for a moment to the creaking rope, then reached up and stroked her boy's leg and spoke softly, lovingly to him.

Darkness fell. Mrs. Fillipov continued her solitary vigil, standing dutifully beside the stiffening bare feet of her master cobbler, dead by hanging at the age of fifteen. (hide spoiler)]

[David A]

Haven't got there yet. Read the spoiler tho and it's horrific what they did. The tragedy is that this is still happening in our world

[David A]

Hey all, I'm reading the 1972 coronet edition. If anybody is reading or has read a newer edition, does it have the "epilogue: among the survivors" section and has it been updated ( as in dates of death of those who made it back to Germany from Soviet captivity). Thanks

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I'm afraid I can't help you there David, my edition was published in 1973. This is from page 303 of my book, things are pretty grim:

(view spoiler)[As the New Year approached, the roads to Pitomnik clogged again with drifts. On either side of the highways, soldiers now stuck the legs of hundreds of dead horses into the snow as trail markers for the truck drivers. (hide spoiler)]

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Late to the party and started on Enemy at the Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad today. I zipped through the first 120 pages like nothing. It's been at least 25 years since I last read it and it surprised me how good it still is. The carnage of the battle is stunning to imagine.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Good to see you on board Mike and enjoying the book. I mentioned in an earlier post that I was worried I wouldn't enjoy the book second time around and specially since so many other good books on the subject have been published but I think Enemy at the Gates still holds up remarkable well.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

A pretty horrific tale of the fate of some of the Romanian prisoners, from Chapter Twenty-eight, page 363 (HB edition):

(view spoiler)[At Oranki Prison, Rumanian troops staggered into camps from a hundred-mile forced march and pressed their hands on lighted stoves to take away the pain of frostbite. When they pulled back their fingers, the flesh remained on the stoves and the stench made them retch. Amidst screams of torment, many fell dead. The change of temperature from the steppe to warm rooms had brought on massive heart attacks. More than a hundred bodies were hauled out of the barracks feet first. The thump, thump, thump of their heads striking the stairs kept other soldiers awake for hours. (hide spoiler)]

I have read before about the extreme change in temperature causing heart attacks from sailors rescued from freezing waters and being warmed up too rapidly.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

How is everyone else going with the book, still enjoying, if that is the right word, the story of Stalingrad?

[David A]

Having read this some years ago it still shocks to read it again, such brutality that went on during that time. Mrs. Fillipov must have surely been haunted by the image for the rest if her life. (view spoiler)[....the German soldiers formed ranks and marched away. The Russian witnesses scattered silently into the gloom, and Brianskaya Street suddenly was deserted except for the three children dangling in the wind and Mrs. Fillipov, who moved to her son's body. She listened for a moment to the creaking rope, then reached up and stroked her boy's leg and spoke softly, lovingly to him.

Darkness fell. Mrs. Fillipov continued her solitary vigil, standing dutifully beside the stiffening bare feet of her master cobbler, dead by hanging at the age of fifteen. (hide spoiler)]

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "How is everyone else going with the book, still enjoying, if that is the right word, the story of Stalingrad?"

I shud be finished it this evening Aussie Rick as i got distracted over the weekend. I can't say that im enjoying the book, as one can't really enjoy reading about human suffering. But Craig however paints a very vivid and honest no punches pulled picture of the savagery that was the battle for Stalingrad. Hope others are "enjoying" the book too.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

I'd agree with David, the suffering and savagery are unimaginable. Yet Craig tells the story without shading the truth in favor of one or the other side. Awful horrors perpetrated on both sides and yet flashes of kindness and normality also exist. It is a well written story and I'm glad to reread this.

[David A]

Mike wrote: "I'd agree with David, the suffering and savagery are unimaginable. Yet Craig tells the story without shading the truth in favor of one or the other side. Awful horrors perpetrated on both sides and..."
Exactly Mike. For example, we read the following for example of Lt. Bracci marching with his fellow captives "...passed numerous villages where Russian women unaccountabely smiled and threw crusts of bread and frozen patatoes into his out-stretched hands" This for some reason really touched me and made me think about human decency amidst appalling suffering. Those women could not have been blamed if they cursed Lt Bracci and his fellow prisoners but instead showed them kindness. Hope you're enjoying the book Mike.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

I read the Lt Bracci account last night and thought the very same thing. The accounts of Christmas night in Der Kessel and the New Year's serenade by the Russian violinist contrast so starkly with the fighting. I am "enjoying" the book.

[David A]

Mike wrote: "I read the Lt Bracci account last night and thought the very same thing. The accounts of Christmas night in Der Kessel and the New Year's serenade by the Russian violinist contrast so starkly with ..."

I read the same bits las night Mike. I tried to picture the sight. It must have been so surreal to listen to Mikhail Golstein playing Bach over the tannoy to a silent battlefield.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Both those sections from the book were great, I liked how the Germans asked the Russians to play more music:

"Play some more Bach. We won't shoot."

How depressing that must have been to listen to Bach, thinking of home & family whilst the trapped in the hell of Stalingrad and by now realising that they had very little chance of getting out of Der Kessel alive.

[David A]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Both those sections from the book were great, I liked how the Germans asked the Russians to play more music:

"Play some more Bach. We won't shoot."

How depressing that must have been to listen to..."

That's just what I was thinking as I read that piece Aussie Rick. If must have been totally renching for them.

[David A]

And of course while the German soldiers suffered inside the kessel, we have the brilliantly insightful response of Goering to the reports of Zitzewitz coming out from the kessel regarding the rapidly deteriorating situation there. (view spoiler)[ 'It is impossible that any German officer could be responsible for defeatist messages of this sort ' he declared. ' The only possible explanation is that the enemy has captured his transmitter and has sent them itself' (hide spoiler)]

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

David A wrote: "And of course while the German soldiers suffered inside the kessel, we have the brilliantly insightful response of Goering to the reports of Zitzewitz coming out from the kessel regarding the rapid..."

Goering, what can you say!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

The face of the German soldier having heard Bach on New Years eve, now preparing for a massive Soviet attack?

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

What did other readers think of the section of the book (Chapter Thirty, page 390 HB edition onwards) covering reports of cannibalism within the prisoner of war camps? The account of the two Italian brothers at Krinovaya where one died and the other tried to protect him from the gathering cannibals, waiting like vultures......

Or this story:

(view spoiler)[Prisoners who refused to eat human flesh used other tricks to survive. At Krinovaya, a group of Italian entrepreneurs retrieved excrement from huge latrine ditches and with bare hands picked out undigested corn and millet, which they washed and ate. German prisoners swiftly improved the process. Setting up an assembly line of sieve-like tin cups, they strained the feces through them and trapped so much grain that they started a black market in it. (hide spoiler)]

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Very difficult to finish the story with those parts, truly a plunge to the very depths of depravity and horror. I prefer to think of the brave Dr Kohler and the poor guy who escaped from the final surrender only to be killed by a Soviet mortar a few hours after reaching German lines. Finished the book and it is still a moving story of war.

[David A]

Yes Mike it doesn't make easy reading. But it lays bare the awful depths a desperate human will be brought down to by war as terrible as that which was Stalingrad.