Auxiliary Reading Chit-Chat

[Eugene]

Proust's long sentences interest me and in fact that particular interest is why I began to read ISOLT 2 years ago. From the introduction by Lydia Davis to her translation of Swann's Way she mentions, for another reason, La Phrase de Proust by Jean Milly. I had to get it.

Early on in the book, Milly makes the interesting observation that Proust's long sentences have the same structure as the novel itself.

Parataxis. Stanley Fish in his How to Write a Sentence... gives a close reading to a paratactic sentence by Virginia Woolf in To the Lighthouse.

[Rosh]

Eugene wrote: "Proust's long sentences interest me and in fact that particular interest is why I began to read ISOLT 2 years ago. From the introduction by Lydia Davis to her translation of Swann's Way she mention..."

Very interesting. Do you have a link to the Milly book? I suppose there is no English version?

[Scribble]

Jim wrote: "Now it is an idyllic countryside experiencing the growing pains of over-development, so somewhere in this ethical stew, I must try and locate my artistic statement. So far, what's bubbling up is commentary on environmental concerns, which are part of my own moral system, so maybe your entire thesis is correct after all..."

I wish you every success in finding an expression through your art of these concerns, Jim. Your aim, to me, seems to mirror the pursuit of truth expressed in the Gardner quote above.

I've always thought, naively perhaps, that it is to this pursuit that Keats referred.

[Scribble]

Fionnuala wrote: "Perhaps Marcel, too, is first and foremost a story teller..."

We can hope to have explored that after our year of reading him.

[Eugene]

Roshan wrote: "Very interesting. Do you have a link to the Milly book? I suppose there is no English version? "

Milly is not in English now & probably never will be as portions of the text have to do with the Proust's sonorites in French. It's specialized too as its subtitle is Des Phrases de Bergotte aux Phrases de Vinteuil.

[Rosh]

Eugene wrote: "Roshan wrote: "Very interesting. Do you have a link to the Milly book? I suppose there is no English version? "

Milly is not in English now & probably never will be as portions of the text have t..."

Ah. Understood. Thanks.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "Proust's long sentences interest me and in fact that particular interest is why I began to read ISOLT 2 years ago. From the introduction by Lydia Davis to her translation of Swann's Way she mention..."

So, is the Milly worth getting, you think? There is also the one Proustitute mentioned, "Recherche et narration. Lecture narratologique" de M. Proust, by Nils Soelberg

[Kalliope]

Proustitute wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "There is also the one Proustitute mentioned, "Recherche et narration. Lecture narratologique" de M. Proust, by Nils Soelberg"

Just to clarify: I haven't read this, but it looks re..."

I know, both look intriguing. I am aware you were mentioning the Soelberg as an example of an pricey book. The Milly is not too expensive. I have underway the one by Rogers on P's Narrative Techniques.

I will wait for the Rogers, and ALSO, to start reading the actual novel, before I consider any other books. But it does seem that La recherche will invite to a deeper analysis of its writing style.

[Eugene]

@Kalliope
@Proustitute

I can't judge Milly one way or another as I've only read the 1st pages. I will open it again when, reading ISOLT, we come to Vinteuil & Bergotte.

I'm a slow reader & even slower in French; besides I hop scotch around secondary texts following my current interests consequentially no review is planned. Being that I'm a debutante in Goodreads tell me about book reviews, where they are, etc. Thanks.

[Eugene]

@Kalliope
@Proustitute

Another word on Milly, on why I've read so little: On the 5th page (p.9) of writing Milly begins a section entitled "Caracteristiques de Style de Bergotte, Themes, Images"...I must wait for my interest to be piqued by the reading or discussion about Bergotte as he was a less involving character to me than Grandmother, Charlus, Sainte-Loup or even Francoise.

[Eugene]

@Proustitute

Thanks for the Gr help.

I may open Milly again sooner than I said because, listening to Swann's Way again today on a 5 hr drive today, I found that Bergotte appears in ISOLT, earlier than I'd remembered, in the Combray section. Also Milly said in the Themes, Images section on p. 10. "Il ne semble pas que, sur ce point, Bergotte soit exactement Proust." Hmm...we'll use Milly's statement to look at the narrator & at Proust as we read along in 2013.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

I'm currently reading Balzac's Cousin Bette. Balzac writes often, and sometimes at length, about art, artists, and the creative process. Somehow I have a sub-routine in my brain anticipating Proust.

[[deleted user]]

As we're getting close to the new year, I thought I'd share this little reference list I've created on Mendeley (which is basically an online reference database).

It's intended for journal articles rather than books (as we can track books on GoodReads). I had to call it a 'group' (that's Mendeley's nomenclature for sharing references) but it's basically just a collaborative list.

http://www.mendeley.com/groups/247648...

If you want to add items to the list, there should be a 'join' button on that page somewhere. Just mention you are from this GoodReads group and I will approve you.

[Kalliope]

I just received the Rogers book, "Proust's Narrative Techniques". I can't find in the thread who recommended it, Proustitue, Nick or Eugene?. It looks like a pretty serious study.

It is not in GR. I will enter the data later today and may be Proustitute wants to add it to the shelf of Auxiliary texts.

[Nick]

Wasn't me :) I had a search, looks like it was Eugene. Let us know what you think when you get around to tackling it!

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "I just received the Rogers book, "Proust's Narrative Techniques". I can't find in the thread who recommended it, Proustitue, Nick or Eugene?. It looks like a pretty serious study.

It is not in G..."

That looks really interesting. I'll add it to my wanna buy. I already have tons of books relating to Proust I have to read.

[Aloha]

I have it up on Amazon with the ISBN. I'll enter it for you, Kalliope. It's around $50 used. I don't think I'll be buying it any time soon.

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "I have it up on Amazon with the ISBN. I'll enter it for you, Kalliope. It's around $50 used. I don't think I'll be buying it any time soon."

I got it through www.abebooks.com and it is second hand as a discarded library copy. Old but in good state.

Will look through and let everyone know a bit more about it.

Thank you.

[Aloha]

Kalliope, I inputted Proust's Narrative Techniques. Amazon doesn't have pages or description. I'm going to Abe to check up on the missing descriptions, or you can fill it in.

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "Kalliope, I inputted Proust's Narrative Techniques. Amazon doesn't have pages or description. I'm going to Abe to check up on the missing descriptions, or you can fill it in."

The book is from 1965, printed in Geneva and has no "official" description. I could include the Table of Contents, but I will have to do it later, when I am at home.

Thank you.

[Aloha]

Okay. I'll put in as much as I can. You can input the rest, Kalliope, since you have the book.

[Eugene]

Cheating a bit, reading the Davis translation on the passages dealing with Bergotte & Vinteuil in Swann's Way is the only way to understand Jean Milly, La Phrase de Proust, whose subtitle is "des phrases de Bergotte aux phrases de Vinteuil", I think.

And after reading the 1st 100 or so pages of Rogers, Proust's Narrative Techniques, I am also focussed on 'who's talking': Marcel the child, Marcel the adult yet aside from these 1st person narrators that Roger's mentions, there is a frequent omniscient 3rd person narrator in the Combray section but that may be because Proust has a child as narrator and adults as readers. More in 2013...

When we're underway I'll probably go back and forth as I have several editions, the Moncrieff, the Moncrieff with Killmartin (sans Enright), the Moncrieff/Killmartin/Enright and the Davis (Swann's Way), a very readable translation but one that André Aciman, a Proust professor at Columbia, slammed in NYRB.

I hope I'm not spoiling anything for anyone but many of the auxiliary readings require a knowledge of ISOLT to comprehend them.

[[deleted user]]

Eugene, Kalliope: is the Rogers book good? I've read Genette's Narrative Discourse: An Essay in Method, wonder if that's similar?

Does anyone want to create a thread in the auxiliary reading forum for the Rogers book?

[[deleted user]]

Definitely, I agree. A spoilers warning is a good idea. I know goodreads has a spoiler tag but discussions of auxiliary texts will necessarily refer to the whole of the Recherche so trying to use those every time would end up confusing.

For an example see the thread I've just set up for Deleuze's Proust and Signs: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

[[deleted user]]

Of this chit-chat thread?

Sure: up to you. Or we could maybe put it on the whole 'auxiliary' forum :)

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

For what it's worth, I'm a new reader who is usually sensitive to spoilers and have not had a problem in this specific thread. (Am I really that clueless today?)

[Eugene]

Joshua wrote: ...is the Rogers book good?

It will be interesting to hear Kalliope on Rogers, but I found it fascinating; I've not read the Genette.

[Eugene]

What Jean Milly says in La Phrase de Proust, des phrases de Bergotte aux Phrases de Vinteuil is that Proust models his writing in ISOLT after the writing of Bergotte. Intriguing, if I understand Milly correctly: actual writing after writing by a fictive creation contained in the actual writing. Hmmm...what this gives me is a reading view, and always a question, of the changing attitudes expressed by the narrator (in the Combray section B is much liked), by Swann (Swann becomes committal about B where normally he commits to 'little' in his social intercourse) & by other characters.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "Joshua wrote: ...is the Rogers book good?

It will be interesting to hear Kalliope on Rogers, but I found it fascinating; I've not read the Genette."

I may wait to deal with the Rogers until I have read at least one of the volumes of La recherche. But will let you know.

[Aloha]

I've read some auxiliary materials and am now into Swann's Way. I haven't been in the mood for a serious book dialogue lately, just anything that is the least demanding on the cerebral cortex...reading, general chit-chat. My reaction to stress.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

In another thread, Kalliope wrote: "Interesting, one of the translations/editions provides a list of the literary works that Proust mentions, with the pages where these references are to be found. "

Are these literary works mentioned In Search of Lost Time? Is there a place in English about these literary works? Wondering, as we have a music thread, and Karpele's book on art. Would be nice to also have a literary list.

[Kalliope]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "In another thread, Kalliope wrote: "Interesting, one of the translations/editions provides a list of the literary works that Proust mentions, with the pages where these references are to be found. ..."

I have not seen that Spanish edition with the list of those references. I may try and visit a physical bookstore and see if I can find it. I only know about it from a review in a newspaper.

But if you are interested in this aspect, you could start with the Monsieur Proust's Library, which is a good introduction, although not an exhaustive treatment.

But I have seen that Proustitute has started a specific thread, which is a wonderful idea.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Thank you! And I have added Proust's Library to my ever-expanding Wish List. I'll certainly not get to it before beginning Swann's Way. Does it contain spoilers? I didn't mind them in Proust in Love, but I've forgotten most of them now. ;-)

[Kalliope]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Thank you! And I have added Proust's Library to my ever-expanding Wish List. I'll certainly not get to it before beginning Swann's Way. Does it contain spoilers? I didn't mind them in Proust in Lo..."

I read it without having read La recherche, and I just scanned over those parts.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Ok, well I might have to get it sooner rather than later. And with this reading my appreciation of Balzac is deepening, too, so I'll probably get her Balzac's Omelette: A Delicious Tour of French Food and Culture with Honore'de Balzac. I'll just have to see if next quarter's challenge can include a task for books about books.

[Kris]

Kalliope and anyone else who has read Carter's biography of Proust -- does it strike you as something I could balance with ISOLT itself when the read begins next week, or would it be better to read afterwards? I'm trying to get my plans for January reading sorted, and I don't think I can manage to start and finish the bio in the next five days, not with the other books I am trying to finish (Infinite Jest and Terra Nostra).

[Eugene]

I'm not sure that I qualify as one who has read Carter, but I have a copy & I opened it to either skim or closely-read the text, depending on my interest, to find an answer to a simple question which is that after public disinterest with his published collection of short stories, an unpublished 900 page novel, Contre Sainte-Beuve--also unpublished--where he mixes fiction & non fiction, his successful Ruskin translations & the numerous articles that were published in Le Figaro & other periodicals how did Proust see his way to begin ISOLT.

The question was simple; the answer is less so & continues to evolve.

[Eugene]

Kris wrote: "Kalliope and anyone else who has read Carter's biography..."

Let me add that I 'read' the Tadie bio before the Carter ignoring Proust's childhood concentrating on his writing years, his letters, etc.

[Kris]

Thanks, Eugene!

[Nick]

I wonder what question you are asking, Eugene. Do you mean to ask "why" did Proust write his masterwork? What caused him to write it? (Just a question, not a snarky comment!)

As you say he was a published critic, and wrote for some periodicals, yet he was hardly a major force in contemporary French lit. Perhaps that was a reason why he persisted unto death. To prove despite opinions, that his voice and heart was worth to be heard. I think many very famous writers would say that they cannot still the voice that says "must write!" It just must come out. The fact that we got to read it, is a bonus. I do wonder how many good works are lost to us, from weight of competition for our attention.

[Kalliope]

Kris wrote: "Kalliope and anyone else who has read Carter's biography of Proust -- does it strike you as something I could balance with ISOLT itself when the read begins next week, or would it be better to read..."

Yes, I think it could be balanced very well with the ISOLT reading, and certainly you can do it since you can juggle so many different books at once. Carter’s prose is very easy, clear and flowing, so it could be a wonderful break from Proust’s style, while at the same time complementing the novel by learning more about Proust himself.

Reading it before, as it happens with everything, has its advantages and disadvantages. So many personalities crossed Proust’s life that it will be very hard for me to remember their traits as I try to recognize them in the characters of the novel.

So, I would concentrate now in finishing your other books and start Proust on a clean slate.

[Kalliope]

Kris wrote: "Kalliope and anyone else who has read Carter's biography of Proust -- does it strike you as something I could balance with ISOLT itself when the read begins next week, or would it be better to read..."

I also have the Tadié,which I may read towards the end of 2013.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "Proust's long sentences interest me and in fact that particular interest is why I began to read ISOLT 2 years ago. From the introduction by Lydia Davis to her translation of Swann's Way she mention..."

I received the Milly book today. I have just flicked through it. It does not look like easy reading and I think it should be read towards the end of La recherche.

[Nick]

Milly's book is also mentioned in my set of essays by Cocking as a recent, new study of interest. (This was in the early 80s.) And I see it's given mention in Davis too. From what I can gather, it seems quite a bizarre book (Proust is Bergotte/Bergotte is Proust or something??)

[Eugene]

Nick wrote: "I wonder what question you are asking, Eugene. Do you mean to ask "why" did Proust write his masterwork? What caused him to write it?"

My question that caused me to read the Carter bio & other texts was "how did Proust see his way to begin ISOLT?", a work that some herald as the greatest writing of the 20 century after a string of self-confessed failures, at the age of 43; in other words to simplify it even further for me, was there a non-fictive Madeleine moment (that lit the way) having to do with his writing.

Carter and other critics speak of his preface to the translation to Ruskin's Sesame & Lilies as his breakthrough to ISOLT. Also in Carter there are encouraging letters by the poet Anna de Noailles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_de_... about his Ruskin preface that seem to direct him.

However what recently amazed me, and further answered my question, was Rogers' Proust's Narrative Techniques & the critical chronology of Proust's writing from his first published stories to ISOLT (detailed in another thread) & his supposition that Proust found through a double 1st person narrator in ISOLT how to be a critic of manners, a moralist, which according to Rogers was what Proust was & a novelist, what he wanted to be.

Now Milly has caused me to pay more mind to Bergotte (Vinteuil & the "little phrase"). In fact in the Combray section of Swann's Way I reread Proust's childhood narrator's infatuation with his books. It is another question (and quite similar to the 1st) that I will carry along on the passages in ISOLT dealing with the writing of Bergotte, writing in general, the narrators struggle to write and of course, Proust's.

[Nick]

I like Rogers idea. I do feel strongly that Proust had a type of message he had to tell others, about people, manners, society, love and beyond, and knew he had a gift. There was always something trying to get out. In Jean Santeuil, we have our familiar elements, the idyll of a countryside life, the closeness of the mother, the tentative explorations into the world of women, the Faubourg etc. In Contre Saint Beauve, he speaks to his mother, his cook makes him toast and tea. It could almost be from ISOLT. There are these fixations he had to express (expatiate? was it catharsis? was it guilt? did he feel he had to justify his existence after not even being able to hold down a simple job-cum-sinecure in a library?) for whatever reasons he finally found the perfect way to express what he had to.

For many writers, and certainly IMO for Proust the first few books are a preparation. Failure, as with Jean Santeuil brings self reflection (over critical at times - we know Proust abandoned fiction in favour of essays and intepretation for a long while, 'til he was done with Ruskin, and util he had demolished Saint-Beauve.) In demolishing SB he broke with tradition, and I think saw himself forging a new path (the bravery of the vanguard). A loner of a kind he knew given his advancing years that he must write and finish his book. Proust was a maxmimalist so his project spiraled to larger proporations rapidly.

There are some nice quotes around how JSanteuil was his first explorations into how he truly felt and into what he expressed but it was vapid and empty, without the unifying force of Involuntary memory. Ruskin become first a love and then a hindrance and a bore to him. (How quickly love fades...) His "agon" with Ruskin and SB helped to shape his ideas on what and how he didn't want to write.

In her little book on Proust, Mary Ann Caws sees the famous passage on Bergotte's books in the window as Proust's own expectation that he will live on in his own books. I think he wrote that section late on in his life, certainly in the final year. Perhaps after his near fatal self-administration of under-diluted adrenaline. I do recall Cocking taking issue with Shattuck here. Apparently Shattuck believes that "the wings of angels" section was written in absolute irony, that only idolators would believe in ressurection through art, Bergotte included. Cocking says that Proust broke with Ruskin precisely because of his idolatry, yet here Proust is entirely sincere; the images of angel wings are meant to move us. I would have to re-read that section.

(IIRC some biographers think that the entire "little patch of yellow" episode was written after Proust himself went to see View of Delft in 1921, but I do recall a counter argument that suggested it was written very early on. I would have to look into that.)

So, my basic point (apologies for digression) is that he had to write. His lightbulb moment may be lost to us. It was a slow maturation that found it could finally begin once that bulb flickered.

You may be interested in Carter's essay in Bales "Cambridge Companion" to Proust. "The Vast Structure of Recollection". He says (along with quite a few other critics I think) and rightly so, that the sometime in or after 1908 (I think he sent a short line or two in 1909 to a friend saying he had begun his new novel) Proust discovered that involuntary memory would be the cornerstone to his whole book. Maybe he tripped on a paving stone. Maybe someone gave him a tisane or a napkin. Maybe the answer is in a book I read on Proust. Maybe it is in Tadie's. Most things are.

Apologies for an unrigorous reply. Thinking aloud.

PS: likely I can send you a PDF or similar of the Carter essay, if you want.

[Eugene]

Nick wrote: "So, my basic point (apologies for digression) is that he had to write...It was a slow maturation that found it could finally begin once that bulb flickered."

Agreed.

[Eugene]

Nick, perhaps you know, but little is written about Proust's thought about his composition--much in Carter is about how to get the book(s) published--but there is not much about Albertine, for example, & other characters, his syntax, strategy, i.e. what follows what, etc. I'd like to read his thinking on his own work.

[Eugene]

Kalliope wrote: "I received the Milly book today. I have just flicked through it. It does not look like easy reading and I think it should be read towards the end of La recherche."

Reading the first sections of Milly's book I have become more interested in Bergotte, a character whom I had hurried reading over before. I felt compelled to reread the narrator's initial view of Bergotte in the the Davis translation of the Combray section; here, for example, is the narrator on Bergotte,

"... he would interrupt his narrative and, in an invocation, an apostrophe, a long prayer, he would give vent to those exhalations which in his early works remained interior to his prose, revealed only by the undulations of its surface, even sweeter, perhaps, more harmonious, when they were thus veiled and one could not have pointed out precisely where their murmur rose, where it died...I was disappointed when he resumed the thread of his narrative."

Because Milly 'equates' Bergotte with Proust I want to see how successful Milly is in his equation. Secondarily I want to look through the 'glass' that Proust offers about his narrator's view of Bergotte--are there similarities--; furthermore & more important to me, I want to look at Proust's own invocations, apostrophes & long prayers: a few pages previous, the lyrical desire of the narrator's seeing Gilberte & later in Swann in Love, Swann's 'swoon' when he first hears Vinteuil's sonata; both are passages where Proust 'interrupts his narrative' and I am disappointed that he returns to it.

[Nick]

I imagine the best way to find what he was thinking would be to read his Carnet 1908 and correspondence from around then (both perhaps in Kolb's editions if English is yr preference.)

I am suggesting this because I don't know any essays or works which address the questions you have, but I am very willing to bet there are lots and it just is a matter of finding them. I am intrigued now, too.

In his biography White quotes Barthes on Proust and says "Barthes speculates that P went from being an incompetent writer of fragments to a great novelist in 1909 once he had come across four discoveries." These are 1st person narration, poetic evocative names, the decision to think big (recall that each section was going to be named after a section of a cathedral) and what White calls "finally a sense of growth and repetition" by using essentially the same characters in everything he wrote (Mamma, Francoise, Papa, Gilberte/Jeanne Poquet, etc etc) I am always puzzled why P omitted his brother from everything. Perhaps because he was still living and as such had no need to be found in lost time, and was loved as one still loving.

I imagine P didn't write much on his own progression as he was writing the progression itself, i.e. the book itself which was to be his ultimate statement. He told friends he was working on a lot of stuff in 1908, but it all morphs into the Search in 1909, really, even when still called CSB.

Looking in my Bales collection, you might be interested in the critical works they list. For instance, John Porter Houston has a work called "The Shape and Style of Proust's Novel", there's an essay by Kristeva called Proust and the literary experience, Milly is cited and they also mention his "Proust et le style". Cited too is Marcel Muller's Les voix narratives dans A la recherche du temps perdu, Pugh's "The Birth of a la recherche du temps perdu" Roger's Proust's Narrative Techniques (mentioned in the forum elsewhere) and much more! I am sure the answers lie in a good bibliography browse.