August 2012: Mongrel

[Josh]

Looking forward to it!

[Antonella]

I re-read Mongrel last night and I wanted to say something now because I don't think I'll be much online in the next two weeks (I'm leaving for Ireland tomorrow, yay!).

This is one of the books I've re-read more often along with the books by Josh.

It's imaginative, fast-paced, the world building is just right because the writing is enough to make one feeling as you *are* there. Also the names of places and persons are evocative. The MCs are not black and white and also the secondary characters are interesting. There is a good balance of romance and mystery (is it called like this?).

Well, I could go on for a while to praise the book, but I'm in a hurry. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

[Jordan]

Can't wait for this discussion. I finished the book last night!

[Sara]

Are we discussing this on the last weekend of the month?

[Josh]

It would ordinarily be on the 24th of this month.

[Sara]

Thanks, Josh.

[Jordan]

Ooohhh, four days from now, let's hope I don't forget.

[Jordan]

lol, am I the only one who remembered? And here I thought I'd be the last one in on the discussion.

So... what were people's thoughts? I guess I'll get started then.

I have to say I think the main relationship happened almost a little too quickly. But at the same time, I really enjoyed it. I think the reason for my conflicting thoughts on this was because I stupidly caught sight of someone's review right before reading the book. I didn't get far before I averted my eyes, but reading that the person thought things happened too fast, made me even more conscious about it. I wish I hadn't seen that review! Here's the thing, romance is about the fantasy, and yeah, sometimes real life can indeed reflect the fantasy. It's rare, sure, but it does happen.

I heard there's going to be a sequel, so I'm interested to see if that continues their relationship or puts the focus on new characters in the same world.

Well, I'll start there and see what anyone else has to say. Personally, I loved all the characters. They were unique and interesting for sure!

[Sara]

I remembered. Just haven't finished yet ;-P

[Anne]

I remember also, but have the house full of relatives visiting, so must come back later.

[Johanna]

I finished reading Mongrel last night. I haven't read much steampunk before and I was enchanted by the world building in this book. I found the world of Fanule and Will nicely enigmatic and totally absorbing. I enjoyed all the small descriptive details about Puriton, Taintwell and the people living in them. The main couple and their fascinating friends (Simon, Clancy, Lizabetta, etc.) felt all very likable and interesting with their little quirks and actions. :)

The thing I loved the most about Mongrel was the language K.Z. Snow used. I don't remember when I've read a book with such huge amount charming words in it! And I also don't remember when was the last time I used my New Oxford American Dictionary this much while reading a book. The author really made me work for it! ;) And that was absolutely wonderful for me. I do realize that I have a different approach to the book than the English speaking readers, but I felt that the carefully chosen, just right words created a very unique atmosphere around the story and a magical state of mind for me as a reader. And I'm anxious to hear how you all felt about this.

I regret not highlighting the intriguing words — because I really should have done it — but for some reason the word lackadaisically from the last pages of the book was memorable for me. ;)

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

GR ate a long comment I had written. I'm so tired of this.

In brief: I am in love with this book. I don't think the relationship was rushed, because Fan and Will are so compatible that they simply had to find each other. I found it believable that from their connection was physical first, but the intimacy they shared was the ground of a more profound feeling between them that was already there. Fan had to find someone with the compassionate strength of Will to center himself.

Sorry if it sounds dry, but when GR eats my comments I go crazy.

[Marge]

Emanuela, I learned from early days in livejournal to highlight and copy EVERY post I had written before clicking on Post. It is so much a habit I don't even remember doing it anymore--and it totally saved me yesterday when one of my messages on blogspot got lost in authorization hell. I hit Paste and there it was. I was so relieved!

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

I do that every time with reviews, but I don't always remember to do it with comments :(

[Karen]

One of the things that struck me during my re-read is how the main characters and their friends are portrayed as genuinely good people. Whatever mistakes they may have made in the past, knowingly or naively, they band together to combat injustice. Their affection for one another is a catalyst to action. I can't say how very heartening this is to me, even in a fantasy, given the state of our world today.

(I'm not quite done with my re-read, as the first two weeks of the school year are demanding, and I keep allowing myself to get distracted by other books in rotation.)

[Jordan]

Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "GR ate a long comment I had written. I'm so tired of this.

In brief: I am in love with this book. I don't think the relationship was rushed, because Fan and Will are so compatible that they simply..."

I really do think you hit the nail on the head. That's what I was thinking. But you know, I stuipidly allowed the other comment to color my thoughts when I shouldn't have. I'm reading another book right now where the relationship is similar. The two MCs were meant for each other no matter what. It just seemed like all they needed was to find each other first. I do love stories like that because it incorporates both the feeling of meeting and falling in love with someone new, and yet, also the feeling of an already established relationship.

[Jordan]

Karen wrote: "One of the things that struck me during my re-read is how the main characters and their friends are portrayed as genuinely good people. Whatever mistakes they may have made in the past, knowingly o..."

That was also something else I liked about it. These characters saw the good in everyone, unless the person didn't show any goodness at all, even after being given an opportunity to turn themselves around. Too bad everyone in the world isn't like that in RL, right?

[Josh]

Jordan wrote: "lol, am I the only one who remembered? And here I thought I'd be the last one in on the discussion.

So... what were people's thoughts? I guess I'll get started then.

I have to say I think the m..."

I too am running behind -- but will catch up shortly. No need to delay discussion!

[Josh]

Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "GR ate a long comment I had written. I'm so tired of this.

..."

Oh no! :-(

And I love your long comments!!

[Josh]

Johanna wrote: "I finished reading Mongrel last night. I haven't read much steampunk before and I was enchanted by the world building in this book. I found the world of Fanule and Will nicely enigmatic and totally..."

I think that's a good point about the careful use of language -- in fact, I think this is probably one of the key elements to really creating a steampunk world for the reader.

[Josh]

Karen wrote: "One of the things that struck me during my re-read is how the main characters and their friends are portrayed as genuinely good people. Whatever mistakes they may have made in the past, knowingly o..."

This is such an interesting point.

The trend in fiction, certainly in our favored sub-genre, is to show bad boys or at least troubled boys, to focus on revealing theeveryoneisamoonandhasadarkside blah, blah, blah. Goodness is largely out of fashion, isn't it?

I guess we can track this back to the romance of the Byronic hero.

And bad boys can be such interesting characters -- after all, we are usually "bad" because we've been hurt in some way down the line.

But anyway, I think reformed bad boys have to be some of the most entertaining and sexy protags out there.

[Josh]

Goodness is highly underrated.

Which is surprising, given how difficult it is to be good.

[Josh]

What did you all think of the world building?

The whole world-building element seems to be one of the key points on which critics of steampunk romance get their knickers in a twist.

My thought is that steampunk romance is like writing any kind of fantasy -- except, if you're going to throw the word "romance" in there, you're setting expectations.

And as a reader of fantasy -- all kinds of fantasy -- I do not want the world-building (however amazing) to supercede the characters and their relationships. And I sense that within the steampunk genre there's a real battle between the purists (for whom steampunk worldbuilding is paramount) and the rest of the readership on this issue.

Unless you are a diehard fanatic (and, let's be honest, steampunk does seem to breed this), the characters and their relationships will be the most important elements. I don't care what the world is, you need a great plot and engaging characters and a believable relationship between those characters.

I don't read steampunk for the number of steamdriven locomotives or ships or gears. People and their connections to other people are what drive any successful story -- at least for me.

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Josh wrote: "I don't read steampunk for the number of steamdriven locomotives or ships or gears. People and their connections to other people are what drive any successful story -- at least for me."

That's why I read too. The world building is an added flavor, but if what happens doesn't hold my interest, the details become annoying. So I guess I am not a die-hard fan of steampunk :)

I liked that there was no info dump to build the world for readers and I think it was also due to the fact that K.Z. chose almost self-explaining terms. When you think of Mongrels and the ratio, you can immediately make all the connection. Purinton and Taintwell for the name of the two cities is brilliant. The sleazy Mayor is Pushbin, it conjures his character perfectly. Demimen is already suggestive and unsettling.

*copying this before GR eats it*

[Cleon Lee]

Josh wrote: "What did you all think of the world building?

The whole world-building element seems to be one of the key points on which critics of steampunk romance get their knickers in a twist.

My thought i..."

Why are most steampunk (and steampunkish) realms so... disturbing? I've read steampunk with slavery, inquisition, and how mixed breed is treated as barely human. Granted, Mongrel isn't as bad as some others. But it just makes me wonder. Is it some sort of prerequisite for steampunk?

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Jordan wrote: " The two MCs were meant for each other no matter what. It just seemed like all they needed was to find each other first. I do love stories like that because it incorporates both the feeling of meeting and falling in love with someone new, and yet, also the feeling of an already established relationship."

I like this too. What I don't like very much is fated lovers, when their connection is due to a magical thingie and not to a real compatibility. Both Fan and Will recognize they're feeling something deep for each other, but they do not accept it so readily and there is a moment for both when they're almost afraid of what's happening. The *love* words come much later and in a very spontaneous way.

[Marge]

I do that every time with reviews, but I don't always remember to do it with comments :(

Bummer. And I enjoy reading your long comments just as much as your reviews.

[Karen]

Josh wrote: "But anyway, I think reformed bad boys have to be some of the most entertaining and sexy protags out there."

Agreed!

It's a scenario that tends to end badly or well. The player (Don Giovanni-type) that every girl/boy thinks she/he will be the one to reform... but doesn't, and things end ill for seducer and/or seducees. Or true love/virtue/altruism brings that bad boy home. This tends to be more interesting if the bad boy isn't entirely reformed (I'm thinking JCP's Channeling Morpheus series for one).

[Marge]

I've been reading science fiction for many years and the worldbuilding for it is similar to steampunk. But too much worldbuilding bores me, especially when it is too detailed. I prefer my worldbuilding through SHOWING me how the characters are using the technology. KZ did a good job of that here, by describing the wagons, transportations, buildings, etc. as they were used and not describing how they worked, etc.

[Karen]

Cleon wrote: "Why are most steampunk (and steampunkish) realms so... disturbing? I've read steampunk with slavery, inquisition, and how mixed breed is treated as barely human. Granted, Mongrel isn't as bad as some others. But it just makes me wonder. Is it some sort of prerequisite for steampunk?"

As an alternate reality genre, Steampunk leans toward dystopian-ish scenarios. The theme of machine vs. man (mechanical efficiency vs. human needs) naturally comes into consideration in stories where there is a choice in how technological advances may be used — primarily for personal gain or public good. So certain sci-fi, stories set in or on the verge of the Industrial Revolution, etc. lend themselves to exploring these possibilities.

There's also the opportunity for authors to examine a "re-do," the ideas of what prejudices would persist or replace those the world has experienced if the technology and communities evolved differently.

(Yikes, I've used "scenario" in two posts already today!)

[Karen]

Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I liked that there was no info dump to build the world for readers and I think it was also due to the fact that K.Z. chose almost self-explaining terms."

Very good point! I briefly considered whether this was facile, but K.Z. was very clever here, explaining a lot about her world using direct and compact means.

[Karen]

“When intimacy is offered and accepted, a contract is born. Not for the people involved to love or even like one another—we cannot will affinities into being—but at least to respect the gift that’s been given.” (Chap. 13, 74%) (Fan confronts Robin Thornwood with his betrayal.)

I noted this during my re-read, thinking it spoke to some recent discussions re conflating m/m and erotica/sex, and the various expectations for sex in m/m romance. Fan's attitude is that respect is due to physical, as well as to emotional intimacy. A breath of fresh air to the oft-repeated "sex = sluttiness" equation.

[Johanna]

Karen wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I liked that there was no info dump to build the world for readers and I think it was also due to the fact that K.Z. chose almost self-explaining terms."

Very good point!..."

Yes, very good point indeed, Emanuela! All those extremely descriptive terms made the world building very smooth and pleasant to follow. Just like you said there were no info dump at any point. The story developed nicely through the various interesting characters and their actions. And just like the characters, the world around them was very diverse and rich in nuances.

[Johanna]

Karen wrote: "“When intimacy is offered and accepted, a contract is born. Not for the people involved to love or even like one another—we cannot will affinities into being—but at least to respect the gift that’s..."

I liked that scene a lot too. And I think that your thoughts about it are spot on, Karen! :)

This quote also made me think how moments like that — when Fanule was on the edge with his emotions and mood swings — felt like some kind of turning points (or waypoints) of the storyline.

[Jordan]

Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Jordan wrote: " The two MCs were meant for each other no matter what. It just seemed like all they needed was to find each other first. I do love stories like that because it incorporates both the ..."

I will say there are some stories where characters who are mated through magic work for me. But the story has to be well done, and usually the best of these has the characters meet and fall in love before the magic takes hold, or at least partially fall. Unacceptable Risk by Kaje Harper is one such book that I really love.

[Jordan]

Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Josh wrote: "I don't read steampunk for the number of steamdriven locomotives or ships or gears. People and their connections to other people are what drive any successful story -- at least for me...."

I really loved her world building, especially the names of the characters and the towns. And while I'm not a fanatic or anything, I will say that I did want just a bit more description of their vehicles. For some reason, I had a hard time picturing them in my head. But I don't need much more than what's there. I'm the same with most of you that a good story and good characters are usually what caries me through, and they did that here perfectly, but for some little niggles about vehicles. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Sometimes when I picture a character in my head, I see a body, but the head is very fuzzy. I don't know why that is, even if I have a very vivid description to go on. So who knows, maybe it's just me.

[Jordan]

Marge wrote: "I've been reading science fiction for many years and the worldbuilding for it is similar to steampunk. But too much worldbuilding bores me, especially when it is too detailed. I prefer my worldbuil..."

She really did do a good job showing all these things. Therefore, I think it was just my silly brain that couldn't make some descriptions work.

[Reggie]

I just finished and really enjoyed it. This book is different than other Steampunk I've been exposed to. The world view wasn't as jaded, and the characters were warmer. I usually give up about 75% into steampunk figuring if the characters don't care about themselves that much than neither do I.

I agree the world building was done well without an info dump. I don't need all my questions answered to get into a story. This must be tough for the author and editor of any fantasy. Figuring out what HAS to be said and what can be inferred must be incredibly challenging.

This was such a breath of fresh air after the stories I've read where the scenes are explained in ex-cru-ci-a-ting detail. Oh, the pain...

Thanks for recommending such a great read! =D

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Jordan wrote: "Sometimes when I picture a character in my head, I see a body, but the head is very fuzzy. I don't know why that is, even if I have a very vivid description to go on. So who knows, maybe it's just me. "

Me too. I have a sort of pre-loaded image of certain types of people, then whenever a detail is added, I have to change it and start over and it becomes a blur in the end. I think the cover here was GORGEOUS and I had that image to help me with Fanule.

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Jordan wrote: "She really did do a good job showing all these things. Therefore, I think it was just my silly brain that couldn't make some descriptions work."

I really think it's a matter of personal preference, some of us like more details because they like to create those images in their minds, others prefer to fill in the blanks and let their own imagination do the work. Reaching the balance of giving something to the reader to work on and not overwhelm them and bore them with details must be the harder thing to do. The risk of not enough details might be giving the idea of something rushed, or even sloppy. Not the case here, I think. As Johanna said, the choice of words is very careful, the pages are chiselled - in my biased opinion, because I really am in love with this book :-)

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

"Karen wrote: "“When intimacy is offered and accepted, a contract is born. Not for the people involved to love or even like one another—we cannot will affinities into being—but at least to respect t..."

I loved that scene too and thank you for your comment because you put into words what I wasn't able to express.

Johanna wrote: "This quote also made me think how moments like that — when Fanule was on the edge with his emotions and mood swings — felt like some kind of turning points (or waypoints) of the storyline."

I liked how K.Z. showed all the ways Fanule was something else, from something exterior as the color of his eyes to his mood swings and then his powers. It was as if he was a manifestation of the Other in an ordinary dimension - especially after the scene where that poor man told him that thing about his second wing. He was a sort of messianic figure, so fragile, so special. That's why his mutilation was so ugly and it made me really indignant.

[Cleon Lee]

Karen wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Why are most steampunk (and steampunkish) realms so... disturbing? I've read steampunk with slavery, inquisition, and how mixed breed is treated as barely human. Granted, Mongrel isn'..."

True, Karen. Mongrel isn't that "dark" by steampunk standard and the world building is just marvelous. I always admire authors who can build a world without info dump.

[Reggie]

Cleon wrote: "Why are most steampunk (and steampunkish) realms so... disturbing? I've read steampunk with slavery, inquisition, and how mixed breed is treated as barely human. Granted, Mongrel isn't as bad as some others. But it just makes me wonder. Is it some sort of prerequisite for steampunk?
..."

Yes, I have this Question also. Is there something in the roots of SP that calls to this mood or worldview? Maybe, Josh has some perspective on this historically.

For some off the wall reason- I get flash backs of The Stranger by Albert Camus when I have read Steampunk. {shrugs} Oh well, I don't make much sense when I read "literary" books. ;-P

[Anne]

I finally got started with Mongrel yesterday, the weekend was full of visiting relatives, nice but little time for reading :) I am only ca 25 % into it yet, but wanted to share one little detail that had me utterly charmed and made me fall in love with the book instantly. (Yes, so now I believe in insta-love!)

You probably remember when Fanule visited Elizabeta, the dismembered ghost and her equally dismembered ghost cat, Lickshank (spelling?). Btw, don't you love the names in the story? At the end of the visit Fanule feels the cat's tail twining around his legs, but when he looks down only the tail is there, the rest of the cat is still out. I love that little scene, it is so very well thought out, funny and sweet in a ghostly way ;)

More later when I have finished. Have to work through the day first though :(

[Karen]

I love how these discussions and your comments remind me of thoughts I also had or lead me to new ones — like Johanna pointing out that Fanule's mood swings seem to precipitate turning points in the story, and Emanuela noticing how the descriptions of Fanule's differences come to define his character's role.

And Cleon, I agree this isn't such a very dark story, which is another charming aspect to it IMO. In fact it seems less dark than real life since the characters are able to affect significant positive changes and live to tell the tale.

Re world-building, while I kind of like to imagine writers filling their studios/offices with maps, lists, sketches, character bibles, etc. in some mad creative frenzy, I don't necessarily want to find all of that detail in the pages of their books. Have any of you looked at the genealogical appendices to G.R.R. Martin's SOF&I books? Sorta scary... ;-)

[Anne]

So, finally finished, and still in love with the story and Fanule and Will :). I agree with what have been said before about the world-building, the fact that we learn about the world as the story proceeds without any info-dumps is a very good point. The other is the language, a lot of beautiful and well observed descriptions, giving depth to the story.

But there are two things I would have liked to learn more about. One is the Mongrels. What are the part that is not human? And are there alien purebreds somewhere on that world, and are the Mongrels outcasts from those societies as well?

The other is the Demimen. I think that is a terrific vision but also terrifying. To mix living beings with mechanical components, that is the stuff of nightmares. And that aspect was in my opinion too little developed. Why were they planning on doing it, what was the rationale behind it and why would the Mayor be a part of it? I miss a fundament for committing such atrocities and as a part of the same, I really would have wished for the villains to be punished much more in line with the severity of the planned crimes. On the other hand, this really gave me room for thoughts, so in a way maybe the story leaves the rest to me?

I love stories that have me thinking and speculating, but it also makes me wish for more. More pages so I could understand more. But it is the author's privilege to tell me I have to figure the rest out by myself :)

I have to tell you, it is far from all stories, m/m or not, romances or not, that have me lying awake and speculating, but this one did.

[Josh]

Reggie wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Why are most steampunk (and steampunkish) realms so... disturbing? I've read steampunk with slavery, inquisition, and how mixed breed is treated as barely human. Granted, Mongrel isn'..."

I think part of what's happening is dystopian is very popular in spec fiction right now, so it's natural that that popularity would bleed into steampunk which usually has revolution or the threat of revolution close to its heart.

I'd actually like to see more comical steampunk. You really don't see much humor in steampunk, not that I've read so far anyway.

[Aleksandr]

Steampunk really is an envolving genre. Humour's very rare, and so are "common people" - as a guy told me who's involved with Germany's biggest steampunk site, "I'm so tired of dukes and ladies..."

(I need to write mine. Just the research is staggering, though.)

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Gail Carriger's Parasol Protectorate series is very funny at times. I have read the first three and I have to forget a spoiler I accidentally read on a review before picking up the 4th.

[Jordan]

I'll admit, I was wondering about those demimen too. I love dark stories, so it's no surprise I think, that I actually wanted to experience them, to see what they would be doing and how they would function being half and half like that.

On the other hand, I really did love the light-heartedness of the story. That's something that I've tried to write in the past, but I just can't seem to master it myself, so I love experiencing what other people can do.