The Sword and Laser discussion
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Assassin's Apprentice
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It's Day 1 and we are already talking about the end...
I understand what your saying but there is no way to throttle it. People read when they can and if they are into a book and dont want to stop its hard to make them.I think the best you can do is set up so you cant discuss ...say after chapter five until the first week is over or something similar even that would be near impossible to enforce.
Besides its a great book and I didnt want to stop either :).
I just wait until I'm finished before digging into the threads or only read threads that say things like "Up to Chapter 3" or whatever and avoid all spoilers. Though I gotta say, if it's a really good book, spoilers aren't really an issue for me.
There are some book groups on goodreads that split threads up into 'Discussion up to the first quarter' 'Discussion up to the middle' etc.I really hate that style of discussion. You tend to get pointless threads where a bunch of people dump some vague impressions about stuff that happened but to a defined point instead of interesting threads about themes and ideas and writing which sort of need to be allowed to span the whole book.
As much as I like T&V and enjoy their shows there is a real lack of moderation around here, as can be seen by yet another "Lem" thread for the new book opening straight away then getting way out of hand.
As far as I can tell, it's up to us to put chapter and or completion level in the subject line of the thread. Tagging or labeling are all things we "ought" to start doing more of. If we did that, then your concerns would be lessened, because you'd know what threads to start with and which ones to skip till later. The other thing about this club that most people don't get is that unlike most forums, you can necro-post (or bump) dead threads anytime you want. There are people reading Empire State, for example, and listening to the old episodes right now, and if you go to that section, there are new posts way after the book had been "wrapped-up."
I think this book has been particularly "exceptional" for having Day 1 discussions about the end of the book because it seems like a lot of people have read it before.I share the frustration on how it seems that there are a ton of threads to catch up on, really early into the book. T & V have tried to mitigate this a bit by announcing the book picks a little closer to the start time. But there will always be people who read super fast...and in my case, there seem to be a lot of people who can read and post to here from work...so I always come home to 25+ emails from GR related to threads here. ;)
It's the nature of the beast.
Maybe a good thing to do would be each month once the next book is selected nominate (or hold nominations) for a discussion leader. It will then be up to that person to start any new threads once the new month rolls around. Any threads started by someone other than the discussion leader should be deleted unless the discussion leader has approved it.I know some people think it sucks to add some rules but anarchy isn't as great as most people believe. It always degenerates into fighting and chaos.
The problem with my suggestion is you still need a moderator available a lot more to be able to delete threads.
I read it about a month ago :p
sowwy..... didn't mean to talk about stuff that happens later, but it was necessary to explain what was discussed
Over moderation would be annoying. What I do is save the threads until I've read the book. Pretty painless. This includes waiting months sometimes, and they're still there, waiting.
Jenny wrote: "Over moderation would be annoying."Agreed but currently we have next to no moderation. Which can be a lot worse.
Tricky issue... IT comes down to what the purpose of the monthly reads is in the context of the group. One reason I joined S&L was to get exposed to one new book a month that I might not have otherwise picked up so my biases are a) to read at least most of the book, ideally the entire thing and b) to talk about the book here with others who've read the book or are reading it. Both of these are important to me - the discussion as much as the reading. So, a couple of suggestions: 1) Use basic courtesy. If you've read the book already or sped theough it the day it was announced and want to discuss something about the book that will spoil it put notice of spoilers in your thread title and use the spoiler tag in the first post. There's a thread about chapter 5 in the AA section that does this and I've simply not opened it because I've not read that far yet.
2) Personally, I think #1 alone is enough, but another approach would be to have a moderator disallow ANY discussion of the book for, say, the first week of the month to give people who've not read a book a chance to read it. That's problematic since it favors people who can read the book right away or, if you disallow discussion for more than a week or so, you're kind of killing off discussion entirely...
I think simply tagging threads that have spoilers as such works fine. It allows people to know what they're getting into and if someone who'd not read the book opens such a thread, well, they can hardly complain. If a thread has spoilers and that's NOT noted in the title (and the title doesn't make it obvious, e.g. "About the last 5 pages..." then I'd like to see a moderator edit the thread title so that it's clear.
Rick wrote: "2) Personally, I think #1 alone is enough, but another approach would be to have a moderator disallow ANY discussion of the book for, say, the first week of the month to give people who've not read a book a chance to read it. That's problematic since it favors people who can read the book right away or, if you disallow discussion for more than a week or so, you're kind of killing off discussion entirely... "Yeah, and not everyone is anti-spoiler. Some people read *because* they get excited about what people are discussing.
I'm also more of a fan of using spoiler tags, even if a post has spoiler in the title. Those of us who get the digest know that anything in a spoiler TAG gets omitted from e-mails sent out, while anything in a spoiler POST would still be sent out. Just something to keep in mind when you're posting your flavor of spoiler.
In general, I think it is important to distinguish online book clubs from in-person book clubs. Everyone will read at a different pace, and the entire plus side is discussing when you have time, not having to adhere to any schedules or meetings or timelines. Instituting them would be a pain and cut down on the fluidity of where the group goes without them. Plus with our numbers, you'd always have people who didn't know the rules.
If you look back six months, and you're like me, you're just excited that the club is on a one-book-a-month schedule! I didn't believe it would actually HAPPEN that we would find consistency in book choice and book wrap-up, but here we are!
I finished Leviathan Wakes later than most of the members of the group and there was a lot of discussion to catch up. I know it's not fun to feel like you arrived at the party but it had been already done. But I can see no way around it. People reads at different speed. Some have too many hours that can be spent reading uninterrupted, some have precious little. Killing off early discussions by the mighty hand of moderation seems counter-productive. I agree with Rick's suggestions. That seems to be the only way to cultivate meaningful discussions.
Jenny wrote: "...and not everyone is anti-spoiler..."True. I'm a big fan of assuming other people are reasonable adults... if someone puts "spoilers" in the thread title and uses spoiler tags in their first post then I can decide either to not read that thread or to go ahead and read it because spoilers don't bother me. Regardless, the thread creator has done their part.
I like what Jenny said a lot. I haven't been able to start yet, and admit to feeling a little left out at the moment, but I know I'll catch up eventually. I'm trying to look at all those posts as a great consolation for when I'm finished and don't want the book to be over yet. Moderation would be a lot of work without really helping.Thanks also for pointing out the spoiler tag vs post issue in the digests. I don't get the digest, so didn't know. Is this tip in the FAQ for newbies?
Jenny wrote: "I'm also more of a fan of using spoiler tags, even if a post has spoiler in the title. Those of us who get the digest know that anything in a spoiler TAG gets omitted from e-mails sent out, while anything in a spoiler POST would still be sent out. Just something to keep in mind when you're posting your flavor of spoiler."Hmm, I don't know exactly how the digest works, but I think if a post is on a thread which states there will be spoilers, this enables people to talk freely, and I think in a lot of cases it would be a real pain both reading and writing to have an entire thread load of spoiler tags. I do think it should be really clear WHERE you are free to spoil up to though. A thread on Tigana stated there were spoilers, but I thought I'd got past the risk area, only to find that something mentioned in the first post was revealed right at the end of the novel.
Related to the main topic of this thread, I think it would be great if we could encourage people to resist posting about the end right away, as I agree it can be a little off putting, but I understand the urge people have to post right away. I guess it's a sign of the enthusiasm on this forum, so it's not really a bad thing, though. You can always catch up later. I didn't finish Tigana until after the month had ended, and still had a nice bit of discussion.
I agree that spoiler tags are a good thing. I think perhaps what is needed is just for topics to be clearly labeled so that people who are reading slower than others or who have not read the book before don't get spoiled. e.g mentioning chapter or page numbers in the topic title so that people can have snap idea of how far into the book that topic discusses and then they can easily avoid it until they have read up to that point at least.
Love the new info on how spoilers effect the digest. That's gonna help me out. Thx. Definitely information that should make its way into the FAQ.My big issue is just participation. I want to participate more in the discussions and its lame, to me, when I post in a thread that's two weeks dead, chances are no one is going to respond cause they are on to the next thing.
I like the idea of adding some keywords or something to the posts to try and create some more active discussion as we move through the month. Here are some ideas:
Speculation XX%/Chapter X - A tag for offering up some guesses about what's coming up in the book based on a certain amount of progression. This means you can expect spoilers up to a certain part of the book and speculation about the remainder.
Well I guess I just got that one idea. Anyway I know we are a pretty smart community. There's a concern here and I know we can deal with it together.
Unlike a IRL book group we are communicating asynchronously so it doesn't really make sense to create 'rules' about what you can read when.But I'm a huge spoiler-coward: I never read the back covers of books I plan on reading and find the title of Assassin's Apprentice (spoiler! :P) to be very annoying. So I pretty much avoid the forums until I finish a book.
So I think a bigger problem is that honestly I'm sort of scared to open up many of threads because a bunch of people have read all 9 books in the universe are giving their two cents on the discussions. I don't think there's really anything to do about that, outside of avoiding book picks that are such a 'series'.
Like I bet Leviathan Wakes benefited from only having one more book out, and most of the mysteries at the end of LW remain mysteries in Caliban's War. If the whole series was out already I bet the LW discussions would've been awkward in the same way that some of the AA discussions are.
...a bunch of people have read all 9 books in the universe are giving their two cents on the discussions.I'll probably start a new thread on this, but it's one huge downside of doing a book from a series. Even when I finish this book I can STILL be spoiled by people who comment with knowledge of what happens later in the series. It sounds like the next few picks avoid this issue though
Rick wrote: "It sounds like the next few picks avoid this issue though "Foundation has four sequels and two prequels. :)
Cloud Atlas is a standalone book (but it has connections to David Mitchell's other books).
Hmm... true enough about Foundation. That shows my bias - I was assuming everyone by now will have read it since it's a classic, but that's a sci-fi biased viewpoint. I guess I do need to start that thread since, while it's T&V's group, I'd like to hear what the community thinks about reading book 1 of a series when the series is completed or has been out for a while.
Michael wrote: "Cloud Atlas is a standalone book (but it has connections to David Mitchell's other books)."
True but these are more like easter eggs for true fans to find. :)
Rick wrote: "I guess I do need to start that thread since, while it's T&V's group, I'd like to hear what the community thinks about reading book 1 of a series when the series is completed or has been out for a while"there have already been a few threads around this discussion. Not saying you shouldn't create the thread. Just that you may find some in depth discussions already underway concerning this topic.
Micah - linky? I've kept out of the spoiler threads for AA since I got sidetracked with some Dresden Files.
they weren't about the AA threads specifically. There have been general discussions concerning reading books from a series over single one off books in the past.
ah, I see. Perils of being fairly new. It's not really a resolvable issue in any event - the pros are that some book 1s are good on their own and can instroduce the reader to a new author. The cons are that some book 1s don't wrap up satisfyingly and that it's hard to talk about them when some readers have knowledge from books 2 and beyond and others don't.
Rick wrote: "ah, I see. Perils of being fairly new. It's not really a resolvable issue in any event - the pros are that some book 1s are good on their own and can instroduce the reader to a new author. The cons..."I believe you may have nailed the gist of the threads that were going on. You should be able to search for them if you wanted to. Also even though these topics have already been brought up, the newer members of the community may be able to add even more insight into the subject.
So it may be worthwhile to look up the old threads and maybe get the conversation restarted? They shouldn't be that old. I like this idea because it keeps the same threads going but I'm also a little OCD when it comes to multiple threads :). Or you could start the new thread like you had stated before (if you wanted to take the easy way out that is ;).
heh things just got even more meta. I'm on the side of opening new threads over having huge old dinosaur threads. Outside of appeasing folks with OCD :) I don't really see the benefit. The downside is that new people reply to some year old message in the thread and that's not really a conversation anymore.
Ulmer Ian wrote: "heh things just got even more meta. I'm on the side of opening new threads over having huge old dinosaur threads. Outside of appeasing folks with OCD :) I don't really see the benefit. The downside..."I agree - I'm fairly new here, and if I see a thread with like 1000 posts, I just won't bother with it, because I don't have time to read that many posts, and so I don't want to *write* any posts in case I am just repeating what others have said.
Overall I think people do a fairly good job here of labeling their threads well. Either with the chapter they are up to, or if they're finished. I do appreciate those who use spoiler tags in threads that aren't specific...like the one about Burrich's parenting skills, or wit vs skill. I don't mind people not using spoiler tags on threads labeled finished....spoilers...etc. On the summary e-mail I get, if I see that title, I skip over that section.
As other's have mentioned, doing an online book club is different than one in real life. It would be unfair to make someone who as finished the book wait for a while before they can post their ideas and thoughts on the book. I know I like to have discussions while the book is fresh on my mind.
As for a book 1 of a series...I like it. I have always loved scifi/fantasy, but haven't delved into the genre much. So I like having the option of more books to read after the first one is finished. My only qualm is series that aren't finished yet. Then I have to wait for the next one to come out and I hate waiting! ;)
With my job I sit in a truck on in a room for 12-14 hours a day with nothing to do. So I read. I didn't start assassins apprentice until about the 4th of August but I finished in in about two to three days. And I don't know about you guys but once you finisg, you want to discuss it. I don't think limiting the amount you can read will ever work. They try that in high school and those thar are enjoying the book aren't going to stop because they are supposed to. They will read until it either gets boring or they finish.
To punish these people and not allow them to talk about the book is foolish. You won't keep people around for long that way.
Besides, if I couldn't discuss the book until the end of the month I probably wouldn't discuss it because the finer points are gone from my memory. Since Assassins apprentice I have read 4 other books and the minor details of AA are starting to fade and its only half way through the month.
Some people can read a book faster than I can scarf down spaghetti. The best we can hope for is for people to be attentive with spoiler warnings.
I agree it can be frustrating, especially for people who are used to more traditional style book clubs. Proper use of Spoiler Warnings in post titles and even more importantly Spoiler Tags is probably the best way.It's difficult for this many minds and learning/reading styles to agree on the best way to discuss something. Some people like a structured approach, and some feel that stifles their ability to discuss something creatively. There is a reason most traditional book clubs have less than 20 people.
Also unlike more traditional clubs, all discussions topics are created as permanent separate threads. All discussions are presented as being equally important. "I hate this book" threads are given equal weight to "What is the symbolism of the character never having a real name?" Sometimes weighed more strongly if you go by simple post count.
TL;DR: We can't enforce a style. It's up to us to adopt one by trial and error and then refine it over time.
Is it wrong that I read that and think of this?The link is to (view spoiler) For those with an aversion to clicking links blind.
Skip wrote: "Is it wrong that I read that and think of this?The link is to [spoilers removed] For those with an aversion to clicking links blind."
Excellent. That is all.
For me the issue isn't whether or not there are spoilers in the posts but that if the discussion is being driven by those who finish the books on or before the first couple days of the month then people who aren't able to read it that fast don't get to participate in the discussion. I get this to some degree. People who had read Assassin's Apprentice already were pulling the "well, later in the book" card a bit early on. There was also some of the "as you'll see if you read the rest of the series..." stuff though too and that's just in the nature of things.
I do think that of someone wants to participate in discussions, though, it's on them to read the book in a timely fashion. I get that we all read at different paces and have different amounts of time, but we know what the book is ahead of the month we're reading it in so people can start early.
Honestly, even if you only read about 150 words/minute, a book is about 10-12 hours (assuming it's in the 100k words range). In general, books are 6-15 hours of reading time. Heck, we've know Foundation is the September choice for a couple of weeks... if someone wanted to, they could easily finish it by the end of next week even if they only read an hour a day so I really don't see it as a huge burden to ask the people who want to actively discuss the book to have finished by the end of the first week or so. And, of course, one can dive into the discussion later too.
Hmmm, I think it's a little mean to suggest that people who want to participate in the discussion but are slow readers could actually have finished it quicker if they'd tried (it insinuates laziness, which isn't necessarily the case). I have no idea how it relates to words per minute, nor am I completely clear how your figures relate to one another, but generally, it takes me about an hour for every 25 pages of reading as quickly as I can without pause or interruption. Of course, this isn't a perfect measurement, but it tends to be correct. That means it takes me about 4 hours for every hundred words, and that's only if I'm racing through the novel at full speed without a break (I've had to do this on occasion when reading for literature classes, and my goodness would I be grateful when a chapter break allowed me to nip to the toilet without losing too much time). I prefer not to have to rush through books like that, as I don't get the best out of them, so it would probably be more like 5 hours for 100 pages. Also, the idea of the group is to read a book a month, so it seems a rush to always be ahead so you can comment on posts about the ending right away. I do understand that people are excited and want to dive in straight away, but I agree that it would be nice if people were to hold off from posting about the end for the first week of the month. Otherwise, I tend to feel a little like I've already lost the race and cannot possibly catch up on all that's been said, which does dull my enthusiasm a little. But it is the way it is, and I'm not really complaining, just agreeing with the main post, and sympathizing.
Also, as a second point, you mention that we've known which book was chosen for a couple of weeks now, and while I did see a few posts referring to the choice, I didn't spot the official mention. Where is it generally revealed in advance?
I'm looking forward to starting foundation when my copy arrives.
Mod
A few weeks ago they added (improved?) a Calendar to the Sword and Laser website. It has listed the books ahead of time as well.
I haven't seen/heard what the November pick is yet but in December it will be The Hobbit
I'm fairly new to the club but I believe in the past most/all the picks were voted on by members. I believe Tom said they will be doing that again next year, but at least through December has been picked by them.
Ruth, My comment has to be read in relation to the quote. I'm not trying to be mean, but I did want to point out that if someone says "I want to participate but I can't get the book read within the first couple of days..." then they have options. What I was trying to show was that even for a slower reader a book isn't that many hours. Take your own speed, about 4 hours per 100 pages. For most books in the 400 page range that means you'll need 16 hours. That's spending about 4 or 5 evenings reading. Given life stuff, that might end up spread across 2 weeks or it might be a weekend crash-read. But even if it's spread across 2 weeks, the choices are posted early. Someone can get the book and start reading early and finish in the first part of the month.
Do they have to do this? Nope. Should they feel bad if they don't? Not at all. But if they choose to read the book slowly over the course of the month that's THEIR choice and they need to own it. I don't think it's reasonable to do that and then complain that others read the book faster and are already talking about it. This goes for people who, for whatever reason, decide to do an audiobook that takes a long time or that they listen to on their commute, etc.
All I'm really saying is that people need to take responsibility for their choices and the outcomes. If they want to finish early in the month so they can participate in the discussion for most of it, then they need to arrange things so that they can do that. That might mean buying the book early, perhaps starting it early and spending some time reading it.
This might be a good time to note that T & V have posted a calendar for the rest of the year so people can, money allowing, buy the books ahead of time and have them ready to go.
A balance is always needed. My husband teases me because I obsess about books and read them in a day or two. It's just the way I enjoy it. Others like to take their time. Neither way is the best, just different. But neither should be punished. I have found..for the most part..that people are good at labeling threads for those who have finished or for up to a specific point in the book. People in general seem to be pretty good at avoiding spoilers. There is the "just give it a chance" or "that will be explained later in the book/series". But as long as they're not specific it hasn't bothered me. All those comments do is encourage me to keep reading to find the answer to my question. No one should be punished for reading too quickly...but they should also have a chance to join the discussion late in the month if they want to take their time.
Matt - one nice thing about having the calendar for the rest of the year up is that it allows folks in your shoes to plan out things so you can finish early in the month where a book's being discussed. Not totally optimal since you won't be reading with the group per se, but a possible solution.
Rick wrote: "I'm not trying to be mean, but I did want to point out that if someone says "I want to participate but I can't get the book read within the first couple of days..." then they have options."That's cool, I didn't meant to suggest YOU were mean, just that the comment seemed a little mean sounding. I can see your point, but I still think people should hold off on posting threads discussing the end of the month's book in the first week. Granted, people can start reading early, but I really think folk should be able to feel they have at least the first week of the month to get to the end and feel fully part of the discussion. After that...well, if time gets the better of them, as it did with me, too bad. You can try to catch up, and get the tail end of discussions. Still fine. I just wish there was that weeks grace. Of course, my view doesn't change things, and I'm okay with that. It's just a thought that people can follow or ignore at their pleasure.
Rob wrote: "@Ruth The August and September picks were both mentioned ahead of time on the podcast. The October pick Cloud Atlas was initially hinted at on the podcast as well after some people decided to make it a" renegade read" for August.
A few weeks ago they added (improved?) a Calendar to the Sword and Laser website. It has listed the books ahead of time as well."
Thanks, that calendar will be really helpful. :D
I don't always get chance to listen to the podcasts at the time they are released due to their length and poor internet connections (the latter hopefully a thing of the past). I usually try and catch up with them eventually, but that often makes them too late for announcements of that sort. Clearly I'm very behind right now. Perhaps I should bite the bullet and download itunes (that's where you can download them from, right?) so I'm not pinned to my computer when listening. I've avoided doing until now due to my stubborn dislike for the company, but maybe it's time to put that aside. A good old podcast catch up in the bath sounds like fun.
IMO the whole point of an online discussion like this is that people can jump in and discuss anything from the books at any time. Even when a new member joins months after the fact and has read or wants to read the book and feels he has something to contribute to the discussion they still can: the discussion threads will still be there.
Mod
My car has an aux input so I just listen on my way to/from work.
*blink*Huh...I never even saw that! I even looked for such a link before! How did I miss it? That is so much better than bothering downloading itunes.
Thank you, Rob! You are my hero, it seems. Please accept your virtual 'sword of awesome,' or 'laser of equal awesome', should you prefer. :D
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The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Cloud Atlas (other topics)The Hobbit, or There and Back Again (other topics)
So it's the first day for the discussion and people are already talking about the end of the book and what have you. I mean I really want to participate in the discussion but there are already more then 200 posts on the book.
I guess I assumed when this thing was billed as a "book club" there would be some restriction as to what was going to be discussed and when. Similar to my experiences with like IRL book clubs. I mean maybe that's not possible with the number of participants or the framework provided by goodreads, but it does seem to make participating difficult for those of us who haven't read the book ahead of time. Do the Discussion Leaders have the authority/ability to moderate the forums like this? I did try searching back through to see if this has been brought up before and didn't really see anything.
Couldn't we setup a percentage limit as we progress through the month? I do enjoy reading everyone's opinions but I would very much like to participate, which seems difficult to try to offer something to a thread that is weeks old when I've gotten far enough into the book to participate without risking spoilers.