Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Virgil - Aeneid
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Aeneid, Book 2
Fagles [II: about 730]:
"...I was swept away by fury now]
when all of a sudden there my loving mother stood
efore my eyes; ut I had never seenher so clearly,
her pure radiance shining down upon me through the night, the goddess in all her glory, just as the gods behold
her build, her awesome beauty. Grasping my hand
she held me back, adding this from her rose-red lips:
'My son, what grief could incite such blazing anger?
Why such fury? And the love you bore me once,
where has it all gone? Why don't you look first
where you left your father, Anchises, spent with age?
Do your wife, Creusa, and son Ascanius still survive?
.....
Think: it's not that beauty, Helen, you should hate,
nor even Paris, the man that you should blame, no,
it's the gods, the ruthless gods who are tearing down
the wealth of Troy, her toppling crown of towers.
...."
"...I was swept away by fury now]
when all of a sudden there my loving mother stood
efore my eyes; ut I had never seenher so clearly,
her pure radiance shining down upon me through the night, the goddess in all her glory, just as the gods behold
her build, her awesome beauty. Grasping my hand
she held me back, adding this from her rose-red lips:
'My son, what grief could incite such blazing anger?
Why such fury? And the love you bore me once,
where has it all gone? Why don't you look first
where you left your father, Anchises, spent with age?
Do your wife, Creusa, and son Ascanius still survive?
.....
Think: it's not that beauty, Helen, you should hate,
nor even Paris, the man that you should blame, no,
it's the gods, the ruthless gods who are tearing down
the wealth of Troy, her toppling crown of towers.
...."
Fagles does seem to come very close to saying, or at least implying, that Aeneis should hate the gods.
But perhaps not. She IS saying don't hate Helen. But after that...Venus's main thrust might be "Don't lose control. If you let your anger inflame you {throughout...fire, flames... seem to lead to destruction...there was even fire in the eyes of the serpents}...if you let your anger inflame you then you won't be able to accomplish your true goal...founding a New Troy for me Venus...for us...(is the "us" the Aeneid family...or is it Venus and the household gods of Troy? I don't know.)...Venus might be saying "it's the will of the gods, even the Father himself...don't fight here...this particular cause is lost. Move on. Get your family and move on. And who knows...had Aeneid lingered to kill Helen....his timing might have been delayed just enough that his father and son might have by that time been killed... his killing Helen might have delayed the escape from Troy just long enough...that they might not have been able to escape... Venus might have known this? She moves him along to accomplish her goal.
Fitzgerald (II: about 780):
"Son,
Why let such suffering goad you on to fury
Past control? Where is your thoughtfulness
For me, for us? Will you not first revisit
The place you left your father, worn and old,
Or find out if your wife, Creusa, lives...
You must not hold the woman of Laconia, That hated face, the cause of this, nor Paris.
The harsh will of the gods it is, the gods,
That overthrows the splendor of this place
And brings Troy from her height into the dust....
...the Father himself empower the Danaans,
Urges assaulting gods on the defenders.
Away child; put an end to toiling so,
I shall be near, to see you safely home."
But perhaps not. She IS saying don't hate Helen. But after that...Venus's main thrust might be "Don't lose control. If you let your anger inflame you {throughout...fire, flames... seem to lead to destruction...there was even fire in the eyes of the serpents}...if you let your anger inflame you then you won't be able to accomplish your true goal...founding a New Troy for me Venus...for us...(is the "us" the Aeneid family...or is it Venus and the household gods of Troy? I don't know.)...Venus might be saying "it's the will of the gods, even the Father himself...don't fight here...this particular cause is lost. Move on. Get your family and move on. And who knows...had Aeneid lingered to kill Helen....his timing might have been delayed just enough that his father and son might have by that time been killed... his killing Helen might have delayed the escape from Troy just long enough...that they might not have been able to escape... Venus might have known this? She moves him along to accomplish her goal.
Fitzgerald (II: about 780):
"Son,
Why let such suffering goad you on to fury
Past control? Where is your thoughtfulness
For me, for us? Will you not first revisit
The place you left your father, worn and old,
Or find out if your wife, Creusa, lives...
You must not hold the woman of Laconia, That hated face, the cause of this, nor Paris.
The harsh will of the gods it is, the gods,
That overthrows the splendor of this place
And brings Troy from her height into the dust....
...the Father himself empower the Danaans,
Urges assaulting gods on the defenders.
Away child; put an end to toiling so,
I shall be near, to see you safely home."
I think that what was important in Priam's dying words was simply that he was aiming to either plead for his life, or at least to curse/shame Pyrrhus/Neoptolemus. The degree to which Priam's words were a spin on the truth is not so relevant, what mattered was that he insulted Pyrrhus for being less honorable than Achilles, and in this scene the reader can certainly appreciate the contrast.
At 90 Zadignose wrote: "I think ... what mattered was that he [Priam] insulted Pyrrhus for being less honorable than Achilles, and in this scene the reader can certainly appreciate the contrast.."
That's a good point. I remember that when we read The Iliad there was a good deal of discussion regarding the Greeks being part of a shame-based society. And if they were...they wouldn't have self-generated feelings of shame...but would have felt shame when others called them out on bad behavior. So here is Priam, an external source, calling the behavior of Pyrrhus shameful.
And we readers now have heard/read of the sh.ameful behavior. So it's even more real. Maybe? more true because so many now think it.
But look how very shameless Pyrrhus is! He almost mocks the old man:
"You'll report the news
To Pelides [Achilles], my father; don't forget
My sad behavior, the degeneracy
Of Neoptolemus. Now die.'" (Fitzgerald Ii: 712)
That's a good point. I remember that when we read The Iliad there was a good deal of discussion regarding the Greeks being part of a shame-based society. And if they were...they wouldn't have self-generated feelings of shame...but would have felt shame when others called them out on bad behavior. So here is Priam, an external source, calling the behavior of Pyrrhus shameful.
And we readers now have heard/read of the sh.ameful behavior. So it's even more real. Maybe? more true because so many now think it.
But look how very shameless Pyrrhus is! He almost mocks the old man:
"You'll report the news
To Pelides [Achilles], my father; don't forget
My sad behavior, the degeneracy
Of Neoptolemus. Now die.'" (Fitzgerald Ii: 712)
Ruden's translation:Give up your hatred of the lovely Helen
And wicked Paris, since it is the gods
Who are so cruel and topple wealthy Troy...
Neptune has smashed the walls with his great trident,
And shaken and uprooted the whole city.
Bloodthirsty Juno, girded with a sword,
Has gained the Scaean Gate and wildly calls
her army from the ships.
There -- on the citadel Athena flashes her
Her ruthless Gorgon shield through burning cloud.
I don't think Venus is telling Aeneas to hate the gods. She is telling him that he is wasting his time with hatred of Helen. The gods are destroying the city and he has obligations to mind. He must not be consumed by hatred of Helen, as Achilles was consumed with hatred of Hector. He has to calm his furor, as Neptune calms the waves in Book 1:
As often in a crowded gathering
Crude commoners in a rage begin to riot,
Torches and stones fly, frenzy finds weapons --
But if they see a stern and blameless statesman,
They all fall silent, keen for him to speak.
Then he will tame their hearts and guide their passions:
Like this, the roar of the broad sea grew quiet
Under the Lord's gaze. 1.148
The suggestion that Aeneas should hate the gods is troublesome, in part because he is "pious" Aeneas. The Greeks are slaughtering Trojan priests and suppliants at the altars of the gods. Aeneas ought not to be like them.
I also thought it was somewhat transparent that Virgil had to justify Aeneas, and this book/chapter was somewhat strained for me. The book had to plausibly show Aeneas as heroic, while at the same time contriving a way to have him flee Troy, not get revenge against Helen, and turn away despite the atrocities of the Greeks. He had to be commanded by the Gods to leave, yet he still had to ignore their command, and get some degree of revenge and stage a few heroic attempts to resist. In a similar way, Anchises submits to the necessity of fleeing only when compelled to do so. In the conflict between honorable death and wise retreat, it's simply not acceptable to retreat unless your hand is forced by a combination of supernatural intervention, family compulsion, and the absolute impossibility of mounting a successful defense.-----------------------------------------------
On another topic, am I the only one who thought it was not at all obvious that Venus recruited Cupid to get Dido to love AENEAS? It was not stated explicitly. Rather, Cupid is commanded to impersonate Aeneas's son Ascanius, and in that disguise he is meant to poison Dido with love. What is never stated is love for whom.
Did Virgil just assume that everyone would know the story of Dido in advance, so he didn't bother to be explicit in this phase of the story?
Zadignose wrote: "I also thought it was somewhat transparent that Virgil had to justify Aeneas, and this book/chapter was somewhat strained for me. The book had to plausibly show Aeneas as heroic, while at the same ..."
Yes, but necessary, right? Because back in Book 1 Virgil had Aeneis, " the first to flee." What kind of heroic founder of Rome would that be. You did a great job of showing how Virgil subsequently showed us their true mettle...the Aeneid line really is heroic....but dutiful to the goddess- mother Venus. Pretty good, yes? Showing Romans " Be heroic," but also showing them/ telling them "Put aside personal preferences for heroics/vendettas/individual glory...when the greater good of the state (Rome) is at stake. Follow orders.)
Cupid/Ascanius. Yes. I had thought that ---- the aid from Jupiter when he sent Mercury...and the aid from Venus when she enlisted Cupid undermined the righteous indignation of Aeneas towards the deception on Sidon. Granted, Aeneis didn't know that there was deception/compulsion taking place on his behalf...but he benefitted from it...and Carthage was hurt by it.
Yes, but necessary, right? Because back in Book 1 Virgil had Aeneis, " the first to flee." What kind of heroic founder of Rome would that be. You did a great job of showing how Virgil subsequently showed us their true mettle...the Aeneid line really is heroic....but dutiful to the goddess- mother Venus. Pretty good, yes? Showing Romans " Be heroic," but also showing them/ telling them "Put aside personal preferences for heroics/vendettas/individual glory...when the greater good of the state (Rome) is at stake. Follow orders.)
Cupid/Ascanius. Yes. I had thought that ---- the aid from Jupiter when he sent Mercury...and the aid from Venus when she enlisted Cupid undermined the righteous indignation of Aeneas towards the deception on Sidon. Granted, Aeneis didn't know that there was deception/compulsion taking place on his behalf...but he benefitted from it...and Carthage was hurt by it.
Patrice...I have some fascinating info regarding your post 97. I've been toying with the idea of posting it over in Background. Will try to get to that ths evening.
I LIKE that. Duty...yes. But his own values, too: Aeneis doesn't strictly "need" his father to found Rome...the bloodline will continue through Ascanius (sp?). Yet Aeneis will go AGAINST duty (leaving Troy) for the sake of his father.
Would he have stayed and died in Troy had not some god sent the mysterious sign...the glowy lights around the head of Ascanius?
Would he have stayed and died in Troy had not some god sent the mysterious sign...the glowy lights around the head of Ascanius?
Lol...now that you have me thinking about Madonna vs the Madonna...I now see a similarity. A possible pov: Just as Madonna uses something [blatant sexuality] that wasn't supposed to be shared [mores had long held that a woman should share her naked or near naked body with only her husband...possibly with her lover] in order to obtain her objective [selling more albums and concert tickets],
so, too, Venus uses something [her "pure light"] that supposedly shouldn't be -- or at least never before by mortal man has been ("as lovely as the lords of heaven know her")-- seen in order to obtain her objective [holding Aeneis back].
so, too, Venus uses something [her "pure light"] that supposedly shouldn't be -- or at least never before by mortal man has been ("as lovely as the lords of heaven know her")-- seen in order to obtain her objective [holding Aeneis back].
I just posted the Book 3 thread, but before we leave Book 2 I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about the flames that appear on Iulus' head. Crying out like this Creusa filled the whole house with her groans,
when suddenly a wonder, marvellous to speak of, occurred.
See, between the hands and faces of his grieving parents,
a gentle light seemed to shine from the crown
of Iulus’s head, and a soft flame, harmless in its touch,
licked at his hair, and grazed his forehead.
Trembling with fear, we hurry to flick away the blazing strands,
and extinguish the sacred fires with water.
One interesting point, perhaps, is that some miracles, messages, and acts of the gods are projected... I mean, we hear the gods debating, their actions are foretold, the source of the miracle is identified... but some signs/omens, those from Jove perhaps, come completely unexpectedly. Here we don't have Venus showing up on the scene, shaking Aeneas by the shoulders and saying "here's what I want you to do and why." Instead there's the immediate and mysterious sign. They pray for a further sign from Zeus and are answered immediately by thunder and a falling star. Jove is everpresent, ominous (in all senses), and speaks without words through potent signs. His power is more awesome and invokes more immediate revolution in thought than even the appearance of a living, breathing, speaking god among mortals.
While we're on the subject of Chapter 2, by the way, what did you think of this (as translated by Fagles):"...Just so Androgeos, seeing us, cringes with fear,
recoiling, struggling to flee but we attack,
flinging a ring of steel around his cohorts--"
Great poetry, perhaps, but this is a notable mention of steel (there are several others) in a story set in the Bronze Age. Homer was aware of iron, and whenever the Trojan war is supposed to have occurred (mythically or otherwise), a transition from bronze to iron may have been occuring. But Homer wouldn't have known of steel, and wouldn't have placed it in the hands of fighters hundreds of years before his own time.
A nitpicky point, perhaps, but whaddayathink? And, if you know, did Virgil himself refer to steel (which was known in his day), or was this only a part of the modern English translation?
Patrice wrote: "Since they were called "sacred fires" I assumed they were a sign from some god. Since it shone from the "crown" of his head, perhaps it was a sign of future kingship? Just a guess."I think that's right. It reminds me of laurels or maybe even a halo. It's a striking image to have at such a dramatic moment. Approached in the right (or wrong) way it could almost be comical. (Hey wait! The kid's hair is on fire!)
Do any of the pictorial representations of this scene show the fire licking Iulus' head?
Zadignose wrote: "A nitpicky point, perhaps, but whaddayathink? And, if you know, did Virgil himself refer to steel (which was known in his day), or was this only a part of the modern English translation? I think this is Fagles' embellishment. The Latin term in this passage is armis, which is more literally "with arms", or armor, or in this case shields might be a better word since Androgeos is being surrounded by them.
Patrice wrote: "Since they were called "sacred fires" I assumed they were a sign from some god. Since it shone from the "crown" of his head, perhaps it was a sign of future kingship? Just a guess."
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
Thomas wrote: "Zadignose wrote: "A nitpicky point, perhaps, but whaddayathink? And, if you know, did Virgil himself refer to steel (which was known in his day), or was this only a part of the modern English trans..."Good catch, Z&T. Appreciate your comments!
Nice catch. I think there must be a connection somehow as far as the meaning of the flames go, but I'm having trouble imagining how a Trojan child refugee relates back to a raging Greek warrior... did the Julii family ever claim a relation to Achilles?
I finished Book Two over a week ago (maybe even more than two weeks ago), but there has been some crazy nonsense going on in both my business life and my personal life, so I have not posted my thoughts here yet (and I actually have a lot of questions that I would like to ask.) BUT, just to see how much I remember from Book Two, I'm taking the "risk" of taking the quiz on Book Two.
I will be back with my comments and questions!!!
OK -- I just took the quiz and got 13 of 15 correct!!! Good... I guess that means I can post my comments on Book Two without having to reread this section!!!!Sorry for the delay in my posts. As soon as all of this "nonsense" called "life" slows down a bit, I'll be able to think clearly enough to participate more here!!!
Barbara wrote: "OK -- I just took the quiz and got 13 of 15 correct!!! Good... I guess that means I can post my comments on Book Two without having to reread this section!!!!
."
;) It is hard to remember all the details. 13 out of 15 sounds like a pretty decent score.
."
;) It is hard to remember all the details. 13 out of 15 sounds like a pretty decent score.
Snakes/Fire
Should you be interested, I read a piece by Bernard Knox entitled: The Serpent and the Flame. I "think" you can access it from the address below and start reading at page 65.
Or, google "The Serpent and the Flame"
http://books.google.com/books?id=JjdR...
Should you be interested, I read a piece by Bernard Knox entitled: The Serpent and the Flame. I "think" you can access it from the address below and start reading at page 65.
Or, google "The Serpent and the Flame"
http://books.google.com/books?id=JjdR...
Adelle wrote: "Snakes/FireShould you be interested, I read a piece by Bernard Knox entitled: The Serpent and the Flame. I "think" you can access it from the address below and start reading at page 65.
Or, goo..."
Thank you for posting this link here, Adelle!!! It's definitely very interesting and worth reading. (I read through it quickly, but I want to go back and read it again.)
Patrice wrote: " ...Adelle, if I remember correctly, isn't this why you liked Achilles so much? He stood up for justice and didn't just do his duty? Or what others told him was his duty? "
Sorry, Patrice, it's like I just noticed this.
Kinda sorta. He stood up for justice as regards to his own self. I lLIKED that about him. But the duty aspect, doesn't, i think, apply to Achilles. I liked Achilles because he did NOT have a duty to the others...and he wasn't going to let anyone ramrod him into doing what they wanted him to do on the grounds that " they needed him"--- especially when those others would not admit that they needed him and that they had done him wrong. If they had stepped up and admitted that they had wronged him, i think Achilles would have been happy tp fight for them.
So i guess, yes, lol, he didn't let others tell him what hs duty was.
Sorry, Patrice, it's like I just noticed this.
Kinda sorta. He stood up for justice as regards to his own self. I lLIKED that about him. But the duty aspect, doesn't, i think, apply to Achilles. I liked Achilles because he did NOT have a duty to the others...and he wasn't going to let anyone ramrod him into doing what they wanted him to do on the grounds that " they needed him"--- especially when those others would not admit that they needed him and that they had done him wrong. If they had stepped up and admitted that they had wronged him, i think Achilles would have been happy tp fight for them.
So i guess, yes, lol, he didn't let others tell him what hs duty was.
Barbara wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Snakes/Fire
Should you be interested, I read a piece by Bernard Knox entitled: The Serpent and the Flame. I "think" you can access it from the address below and start reading at pa..."
I liked it myself. Everyman had commented on the repeated snake theme. So when I ran across the essay I thought I would try linking it. Glad it came through. Lol, I haven't got a 100% success rate.
Should you be interested, I read a piece by Bernard Knox entitled: The Serpent and the Flame. I "think" you can access it from the address below and start reading at pa..."
I liked it myself. Everyman had commented on the repeated snake theme. So when I ran across the essay I thought I would try linking it. Glad it came through. Lol, I haven't got a 100% success rate.
I'm going out on a limb here and asking some questions that may make me look very silly (because I'm pretty sure I should already know the answer to these questions!!)A very large part of Book Two is about the horse (and I think everyone, even people who have never read ANY Greek and/or Roman mythology are familiar with the "Trojan Horse.")
However, I'm wondering now why it's referred to as the Trojan Horse, because Aeneas (in Book Two) never referred to it this way, and it's actually the "Greek Horse" (in my opinion) because it was created by the Greeks.
BUT, the above is only a very small point of a MUCH larger question I have (which again, I feel silly for not knowing.)
My question is: Where did the story of the horse, which led to the final fall of Troy, originate from???
In the Iliad, the story of how the Greeks won the war (or the final "fall of Troy" is not told.)
Is it Vergil (in the Aeneid) who first told the story of the horse and the way the Greeks conquered Troy?? I doubt this story first came from Vergil, because his stories were written (or told) more than 500 years after Homer and the Greek Tragedians. (Although I don't remember ever reading about the horse in any plays of Sophocles, Euripides, or Aeschylus, but I have not read ALL of their plays so it's very possible that the story of the final fall of Troy is covered in some of the plays.)
SO, clearly I need to "brush up on my Greek classics" because I don't know where the story of the horse and the final fall of Troy came from.
The funny thing is that I am VERY familiar with the entire story of the Greeks hiding within the horse, which gave them entrance through the gates and into the city. While I was reading about it, as told to Dido by Aeneas, there was nothing new or strange or different about the story to me. But HOW do I know the story???
Barbara wrote: "While I was reading about it, as told to Dido by Aeneas, there was nothing new or strange or different about the story to me. But HOW do I know the story??? .."The main source for the story is actually the Aeneid, so you're getting it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. It is mentioned in the Odyssey, if I recall, but the whole story isn't present anywhere that I'm aware of, except in the Aeneid.
Thomas wrote: "
... so you're getting it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak
."
;) nicely done.
... so you're getting it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak
."
;) nicely done.
Patrice wrote: But in general, I think a lot of these stories come from lost texts. " That is my understanding as well. The big problem with these "epic cycle" books is that they only exist in fragments or in summaries by later authors. Aristotle criticises them in the Poetics, so we know they must have been known and in circulation. The trojan horse story occurs in the Little Iliad and Iliou Persis (the Sack of Troy) -- Proclus' summaries can be found here:
http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?d...
Barbara wrote: "As soon as all of this "nonsense" called "life" slows down a bit, I'll be able to think clearly enough to participate more here!!! "If my life is anything to go by, it never DOES slow down, even a bit! But you seem to be able to think plenty clearly enough as it is.
"Dido Receiving Aeneas and Cupid Disguised as Ascanius"
Francesco Solimena
Private Collection
http://www.artilim.com/artist/solimen...
See Background Information for Tiepolo's version, which shows a considerably older Ascanius.
Thanks, Lily.
I looked at both paintings.
I think I prefer the other one...because Ascanius has to be about 10 years old by the time he meets Dido. Perhaps 2-3 years older since he's taking part in hunting, and shortly after he's riding in the military games, and shortly after that he's killing his first man.
I looked at both paintings.
I think I prefer the other one...because Ascanius has to be about 10 years old by the time he meets Dido. Perhaps 2-3 years older since he's taking part in hunting, and shortly after he's riding in the military games, and shortly after that he's killing his first man.
Adelle wrote: "Thanks, Lily. I looked at both paintings.
I think I prefer the other one...because Ascanius has to be about 10 years old by the time he meets Dido. Perhaps 2-3 years older since he's taking p..."
Adelle, I'm with you. If I had found the Tiepolo first, I'd have probably put it here, but I had already done all the html stuff, didn't particularly want to overburden the discussion, and so, did the expedient.
On the other hand, I find it more difficult to imagine Dido becoming attached to the older boy (doesn't she put him on her lap somewhere? -- my text isn't handy).
Yeah, I know what you're saying. I'm rather uncomfortable with a 10-year-old boy sitting a Dido's lap all evening as she dotes on him. Seems "not right."
So yes, glad for both paintings. lol, all of them.
So yes, glad for both paintings. lol, all of them.
Everyman wrote: "If my life is anything to go by, it never DOES slow down, even a bit! But you seem to be able to think plenty clearly enough as it is." Thank you, Everyman!! But I don't know if I actually think as clearly as I'd like to!! I've fallen a LOT behind on Aeneid. How do you and so many others in this group manage to read multiple books at once?? I just saw the "currently reading" list of a friend of mine here on Goodreads, and he's reading TEN books!!! I'm trying to juggle the Aeneid with two other books right now, but if I'm not done with the Aeneid when we start Inferno I'm going to temporarily put Aeneid down until we're finished with all of the Divine Comedy.
I do have to say that reading the Aeneid has been such a fantastic thing for me. I'm so glad that you, Patrice, and Thomas encouraged me to read it, even though I started late. I had forgotten how much I LOVE the Greek and Roman classics, and now I want to go back and read ALL of them, all over again.
SORRY..... I didn't mean to go "off topic" here. I've been a bit "out of the loop" for the past few weeks, so unfortunately I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, but I'm hoping to catch up on my reading this weekend.
Adelle wrote: "What Everyman said."Thanks, Adelle!!! I just saw your comment!!!
Adelle wrote: "Yeah, I know what you're saying. I'm rather uncomfortable with a 10-year-old boy sitting a Dido's lap all evening as she dotes on him. Seems "not right."So yes, glad for both paintings. lol, a..."
Here's one that seemed to me to somewhat bridge our concerns about the age and the seemliness of Ascanius:
There are a number of other similar illustrations at the same site for the remainder of the book: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/40622/...
Lily wrote: "There are a number of other similar illustrations at the same site for the remainder of the book: "Cool site! Love the illustrations.
Barbara, I get behind too, sometimes to the point I need to put in the extra effort to catch up. It is such a huge benefit to "travel in packs" though, even if at the tail end of the pack.
Had it not been for joining this particular "pack", I would not have seen that gutenberg site of illustrations.
Stay with us!
Paul wrote: "
It is such a huge benefit to "travel in packs" though, even if at the tail end of the pack.
H..."
Nice! Being raised by that she-wolf as they were, I'm thinking Romulus nd Remus ran with wolves, too....traveled in packs.
It is such a huge benefit to "travel in packs" though, even if at the tail end of the pack.
H..."
Nice! Being raised by that she-wolf as they were, I'm thinking Romulus nd Remus ran with wolves, too....traveled in packs.
Paul wrote: "Barbara, I get behind too, sometimes to the point I need to put in the extra effort to catch up. It is such a huge benefit to "travel in packs" though, even if at the tail end of the pack.
H..."
Paul and Adelle -- thanks for the encouragement!!! If I'm going to run with a "pack" or with "wolves," I honestly have to say that I couldn't have found a smarter, more interesting, cooler, and more FUN pack of wolves to run with!!! I may disappear for a few days or sometimes weeks, but I am definitely staying with this "particular pack"!!!!!!!
Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype by Clarissa Pinkola EstésMy stream of consciousness again! It is nice that this pack isn't solely feline females. Doubt I ever read Estés's book in its entirety, but suspect that in its day it provided an idea or two for my personal edification, probably both positive and negative. I do like the ideas of a bit of wild freedom and alertness to mythological overtones. :-)
Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Yeah, I know what you're saying. I'm rather uncomfortable with a 10-year-old boy sitting a Dido's lap all evening as she dotes on him. Seems "not right."So yes, glad for both pa..."
Lily, thank you for sharing this AWESOME link!!!! The illustrations are absolutely fantastic!!!!
Reading The Aeneid has inspired me to go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art (not that I NEED an excuse to go there -- It's always been my favorite place in the world, and I'm a New Yorker who has been a member there for my entire adult life and I REALLY take advantage of the Met), but it's been a while since I've spent a lot of time in the Greek and Roman galleries.
Actually, before I started reading The Aeneid with this group, I was reading The Oresteia with another very good group here on Goodreads, which was my initial inspiration to go to the Greek and Roman galleries at the Met.
The Oresteia was great, but The Aeneid is LOADED with just about every name and location in all of Greek and Roman mythology, so a few weeks ago I went BACK to the Met (when I was still on Book One of The Aeneid) and was able to recognize SO MANY of the names of the sculptures. In fact, I was with a friend, and it was so much fun because I would see a sculpture and say "OH -- that's Aphrodite/Venus" and when we looked at the name, sure enough it WAS Aphrodite or Venus. (It's so much fun to SHOW OFF!!!! hahaha!!!)
For all of you who do not live near the Met (or any of the other museums in the world which have fantastic Greek and Roman art), there are probably a lot of sites in addition to this fantastic site Lily shared, which feature some fantastic Greek and Roman art (specifically based on the stories and myths.)
Actually, you can see TONS of the work at the Met by going to: www.metmuseum.org
Once you're on the site, click "Collections" -- a window will open with a list, click "Galleries" and then go to the search box in the upper right hand part of your screen and type: Greek and Roman Galleries.
There's probably an easier way to get there, but I never seem to know the "easy" way to get anywhere!! (LOL)
While you're on the site, you may also want to check out the Ancient Near Eastern galleries.
OR, jump on a plane, train, or car and come to NYC!!!! (The Louvre has a wonderful collection of Greek and Roman art as well.)
Barbara wrote: "...thank you for sharing this AWESOME link!!!! The illustrations are absolutely fantastic!!!!..."I'm flattered by the enthusiasm, yours and others. I'm going to have to go back and spend some more time with it myself.
(I love the Met (and Louvre), too, although I'll admit the Greek and Roman galleries have been more necessary hallways to get to somewhere else on recent visits. But there is ALWAYS some vase or sculpture to capture the eye and mind.)
Barbara wrote:
What a treat, Barbara, thank you so much! I've never been to New York. But if I do get there someday, I'm going to The Met.
What a treat, Barbara, thank you so much! I've never been to New York. But if I do get there someday, I'm going to The Met.
Adelle wrote:"...I've never been to New York. But if I do get there someday, I'm going to The Met. I've never been to New York. But if I do get there someday, I'm going to The Met."Come! It's like the Yellowstone (still on my TBS -- to be seen -- list), one of those places to see in one's lifetime if at all possible. As a Midwest transplant myself, I am grateful for working and living in the NY metropolitan area -- since the 1970's; it is hard to realize it has been so many years now.
Bit more crowded than Yellowstone though, isn't it? ;).
I believe you're right: New York does strike me as one of those places one really should see at least once. Well, if you are still here on Goodreads when I'm planning to fly to NYC someday in the future, I'll be inquiring of you, What should I see? If you've been there since the 70s, you've doubtless a couple good suggetions, eh?
I believe you're right: New York does strike me as one of those places one really should see at least once. Well, if you are still here on Goodreads when I'm planning to fly to NYC someday in the future, I'll be inquiring of you, What should I see? If you've been there since the 70s, you've doubtless a couple good suggetions, eh?
Adelle wrote: "Bit more crowded than Yellowstone though, isn't it? ;)."Not entirely sure about that. :-D
"I believe you're right: New York does strike me as one of those places one really should see at least once. Well, if you are still here on..."
If it could work with your plans, I'd share some of them with you! I love chances to share and savor Manhattan -- and the surrounding area, but first time visitors probably seldom want to explore the broader area unless they have family or friends there. There's enough on that Island to satisfy the soul for a trip or two or three or ....
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
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I'd forgotten all about the gold. But on listening to this exchange again today, it seemed that Priam was trying to shame Phyrrus in the only way he could. It reminded me a bit of when Lloyd Bentsen told Dan Quayle, "I knew Jack Kennedy. YOU are NO Jack Kennedy!" Priam is a helpless old man. There is no way he can fight, So he fights with words. He tells Pyrrus, I knew your father, Achilles, the hero. You are no Achilles, you are no hero. What else did he have left in the way of defense? So he conveniently played down Achilles brutality. Makes sense.
..."
Actually, I can see that that might be one interpretation. I had wondered about that myself. Totally legitimate perspective.
But I don't see that as in keeping with Priam's character or with the character of Achilles in that scene with Priam from the Iliad.
I could, of course, be mistaken. But I just can't see Priam, king of Troy, old man that he is, willing to strap on his armor and fight...having just seen his son slaughter in front of his very eyes... I just can't see Priam as lying... I just believe he wouldn't want to go to his death with a lie on his lips.
And remember The Iliad. Priam is NOT lying. There WAS a compassion between Achilles and Priam. Achilles wouldn't let Priam see Hector's body until it had been cleaned and prepared. He gave Priam back Hector's body and he gave Priam back some sense of worth...because there was honor for Priam in being able to provide a ransom for Hector's body. It wasn't a payoff. It wasn't Achilles selling the body. It was the proper exchange.
I just believe that for Priam to lie about that to save himself... (and he would have known that no matter what he said...it would make no difference....Pyrrhus was going to kill them all)... If Priam lied about that time with Achilles when he went for his son's body would be to dishonor Hector. He wouldn't do it.
Mmmm. What is it about Greek plays that makes me want to argue so stridently for what I think is the truth?
Your interpretation may be right. But I just can't believe in it. Smile...isn't that the beauty of some of these plays? We read them, interpret them, and believe our own interpretations so fervently.