The Sword and Laser discussion
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Assassin's Apprentice
2012 Reads
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AA: Negative Review. Fair Warning.
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Nick
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rated it 4 stars
Jul 30, 2012 04:17AM
I really don't care what you read or don't read. Especially if you aren't contributing constructively to the discussions around a book. What does annoy me is that you feel the need to brag about it on the forums. I dub thee internet troll.
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Nick wrote: "I dub thee internet troll."Seconded.
@Darren – Too bad, it's a great story.
Darren wrote: "I lemmed this already. I started in on it this morning, and the first thing I start asking myself: "Is she seriously writing in the passive voice?" The answer was, yes. The first page should be t..."
Ahh, so that's why the first page or so I had to concentrate. I didn't reflect on whether it was passive voice or not. But honestly, once we shift from the old man's room to his actual story it just started flowing really well for me. I read the first 25% the day I started (yesterday). Try a chapter or two, you might be pleasantly surprised.
Darren wrote: "So just to be clear, insulting bad writing makes me a troll, but insulting me is perfectly okay. Okay, Nick. I feel strongly about the passive voice. Is this not a book discussion club? Also, wha..."
@Darren - I'm a bit biased because this is one of my favourite books EVER, but I would suggest sticking with it a little longer if you've already paid for the book.
I would totally understand it if you read a few pages in a bookstore or on a kindle sample and it wasn't for you. But if you've paid for it anyway, why not give it a few chapters before giving up? You might be pleasantly surprised.
@Darren: We had this discussion with the last book about people quitting books early without actually contributing a lot of constructive criticism - mostly because seriously, how much constructive criticism can you give after reading one page.The general gist (and this, I think, was supported by T & V) was that it is frowned upon when people just decide to not read a book and feel the need to start a thread about that fact. If you don't want to read the book, fine, don't. But it's not really a great contribution to say "Didn't like the first page, so I won't read it" and it adds a sense of disheartening to the rest of the group when one of the first threads that pop up is about NOT reading the book.
For me it boils down to two points:
1. Nobody has to read a book. If you don't want to, don't, but unless you have anything more useful to say than that it's just not yoru book or you didn't like the summary or first page, then by all means, just don't say anything. I guess there can even be some discussions that you can participate in without having read the book.
2. If you read more than one page, like say HALF of the book and have valid reasons that you can explain why you didn't like it and stopped reading, then it's fair to start a thread discussing those. There's no definite number of pages you need to have read, but one page definitely is too little.
Since we already had this discussion TWICE and not too long ago and it was addressed on the podcast as well, I think it's fair to call people upon it. Maybe calling you troll is a little bit too much, but I can see where Nick is coming from and regarding the recent past of lem discussions I agree with him.
Lets be honest, you've not really given the book a chance after one page. I have no problem if you decide to lem the book, but if you're going to make a thread about it, you should have more to say than that the first page was in passive voice. There's almost no discusion value.
A grammarian is welcome to correct me, but as far as I can make out the sentences in the opening paragraph are active and conditional.
Darren wrote: "Anne wrote: "@Darren: We had this discussion with the last book about people quitting books early without actually contributing a lot of constructive criticism - mostly because seriously, how much ..."I don't even know where to start responding to this, so I won't.
Darren wrote: But the passive voice is a deliberate choice. I'm not the only person out there who hates it... It is horrible writing, and, for me, a deal-breaker. If the author had saved that choice for page 100, and I had loved pages 1-99... I'd probably still have lemmed it. "@Darren can you give an example of what you're talking about? I really don't think the first page is indicative of the entire book.
I wasn't intending to look at the book, but I just sent a sample from Amazon to take a look at what this hub-bub is about. So, Darren's protest may cause more people to look at the book.
Aloha wrote: "I wasn't intending to look at the book, but I just sent a sample from Amazon to take a look at what this hub-bub is about. So, Darren's protest may cause more people to look at the book."I just hope people read more than the first page. The first page is mostly taken up by the main character trying to write a history of the Six Duchies. If that is what is being called 'bad writing', I think it is intentional. I'm not sure this is the part Darren is talking about or not.
I know a lot of people don't like reading books written in the first person, so it could be that.
Darren is entitled to his taste and opinion, but I don't find anything too objectionable about the book or the writing, based on what I've read of the sample. It does contain a lot of passive voice, but unless you're very sensitive to it like Darren, you might enjoy the book.
I finished 25% in the first 24 hours I picked up. I'm enjoying it as I did last months selection. I understand dropping a book after you get halfway through if you hate it, but one page in...ok...whatever...your choice, your loss.I'm lovin it.
@Darren - I'm lemming this discussion based on the fact I dislike the way you argue or hell .. I just don't like your name or maybe its a Tuesday. Good enough for you? See how this doesn't do a thing to help the discussion?Internet Troll - In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet...
Your purpose was to get a emotional response. I believe you got one.
Oh and finally .. and this point has been made many many times about other books but it is especially relevant to the argument ( which in my opinion is a fairly weak reason to stop reading a book ), you will miss out on some great books if you stop reading them because you dislike the way one sentence is formed.
NO author can live up to that kind of expectation. Your loss. I really wish that goodreads was like Facebook or Google plus and when I see a topic I feel isn't relevant or one I don't want to participate in I can just hide the sucker.
I will add a context to all my statements that this is my opinion. I just hate the trend in the forums towards this type of topic.
Whatever. I'm done.
I reread Darren's initial post, and I don't think he was being a troll. He was merely expressing what he didn't like with his perception of the initial writing, and why the initial writing is important. Those are all valid points when writing a book. From what I heard, most publishers read the first 100 pages before deciding whether to publish the book, or maybe even less. I think sometimes an established author doesn't care about whether a writing is strong since merely the name gets the book published.
Naive question time:What's "wrong" about writing in the passive voice?
Full disclosure: I've aleady read the novel and I enjoyed it very much.
Aloha wrote: "I reread Darren's initial post, and I don't think he was being a troll. He was merely expressing what he didn't like with his perception of the initial writing, and why the initial writing is impo..."I wouldn't say that Darren was being a troll, but...
What I reacted badly to was that we had the nearly exact same discussions TWICE in the recent past. What it boils down to is that the minute a new book is announced one of the first threads that are opened is by someone who doesn't like the book choice and has started a "lem" thread. I don't mind people quitting a book early or not reading it at all, but I personally don't like how it feels like the first reaction to a book is a negative one.
It might discourage others from starting the book. Yes, everybody is entitled to their opinion, but having read one page and feeling the need to start a thread to point out to others how tremendously faulty that first page is, feels a tad to disruptive to me. By all means, wait two weeks until everyone had a chance to read the first pages and THEN start a thread.
If you listen to the last five minutes of the "To Lem Or Not To Lem" podcast, this sentiment is shared by the hosts (please correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpreted what had been said). It's not so much about saying that people should only be positive about books, far from it. But there's this:
This is a book club intended to get people to read new stuff they probably wouldn't read. This means that sometimes you will read things you don't like. You have a couple of options:
1. Don't read it. Nobody cares. But don't complain about how the pick was terrible. Move on.
2. Read it. If you find after a couple of pages that you don't like it, put it away. Read something else. Join in with the next book. Maybe read the discussions and see if you can chime in.
3. Read it. Read further. If you find that although you try hard you can't bring yourself to finish the book, lem it. (And yes, I do believe that this specific situation is the one that the term actually was coined for. Reading just one page and then putting it away is quitting, not lemming. Lemming requires a certain amount of effort to actually try to finish it.) THIS, in my purely personal opinion, is where you can start a thread discussing why it was so damn hard to read the book and why you couldn't bring yourself to finish it. You tried your best. You failed... or maybe the book failed you. Whatever it is, by then you should know enough about the book to bring interesting points to the discussion threads.
4. Read it. Finish it. Whatever it is, whether you love it, like it, don't care about it or hate it, join the hell into the discussions.
(Of course, you can always join in whenever you find something to talk about, not just when you're finished.)
As another example we do have multiple threads started by people unsure whether to quit or not, and seeking advice from people who were already further along in the book. This is a nice way of dealing with this problem. Even if you think that this is not the book for you, try to make it a constructive discussion and getting others to convince you (or not) why you should keep reading.
In this case (and in the last regarding Leviathan Wakes) I simply didn't see the point of the discussion starters. Even saying that the first page is in a passive voice (which, at least grammatically is not even true) isn't really thread-worthy.
I agree that it would have been a nice way to start a thread about the importance of grabbing the reader by the first page. There could have been several angles, another one being to ask how sensitive people are to pet peeves in books or how soon they decide to quit a book. But the way it was written didn't really sound like starting a fruitful discussion was the intention and that simply was what I didn't like.
Dharmakirti wrote: "Naive question time:What's "wrong" about writing in the passive voice?
Full disclosure: I've aleady read the novel and I enjoyed it very much."
When the active voice is used a subject is doing something. When the passive voice is used a subject is having something done to it.
It's commonly thought that active sentences are better, clearer, and, well, more active.
Passive constuctions can also often sound vague and wishy-washy.
But sometimes the passive voice is appropriate.
"Barak Obama was elected president in 2008" (passive)
"The citizens of America elected Barak Obama as president in 2008" (active)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the first sentence. Obama the object of the sentence, not the subject, but the important information I'm conveying is about him, so it's appropriate to lead with him. It's what I'd expect to see in a biography of Obama or similar.
I wouldn't expect to see the second sentence unless the glory of democracy and so forth were intentionally being foregrounded. There's nothing wrong with the sentence, but the focus is off Obama.
(As I've said already, the first page of Assassins Apprentice is not in the passive voice. It's conditional, which is certainly an uncommon choice but a separate issue.)
Kate wrote: "Dharmakirti wrote: "Naive question time:What's "wrong" about writing in the passive voice?
Full disclosure: I've aleady read the novel and I enjoyed it very much."
When the active voice is us..."
Thank you so much for the information!
Darren wrote: "So just to be clear, insulting bad writing makes me a troll, but insulting me is perfectly okay. Okay, Nick. I feel strongly about the passive voice. Is this not a book discussion club? Also, wha..."
If you weren't attempting to troll, you shouldn't have picked such an antagonistic thread title. The tone of your post doesn't help either, but it's the thread title that does it really.
It's always amazing to see how people are surprised to get a snarky response to a snarky comment.
You reap what you sow. Keep that in mind when you're trying to get an honest discussion going.
I'm actually really enjoying this book, I would urge you to try to get past the fisrt part of the book, I cant say I noticed it being peticularly hard reading. But ones mans steak is anothers beefburger.Actually I'm just going to come out and say it... it may be a bit early but I think I love this book, I am loving it so much I am actively trying to read parts of it at work, so if im fired its all on Veronica.
What I don't understand is that you gave the book 1 STAR. You CAN"T rate a book you didn't read and condemn it based on a single page thats not fair to readers, the author or to yourself because it makes you look...lets say bad to be kind...for passing such a judgement on a subject (book) you have no knowledge of.If you finished the book and hated it fine your opinion but its just...WRONG...to kill a book you havent even tried. You don't like the passive voice fine, but that doesn't mean the book stinks.
Also if you didnt even try to read it what the hell is even the point of starting a thread about it because you honestly can't contribute ANYTHING positive OR negative to a discussion. This isn't an insult it seems to be common sense to me.
Paul wrote: "What I don't understand is that you gave the book 1 STAR. You CAN"T rate a book you didn't read and condemn it based on a single page thats not fair to readers, the author or to yourself because it..."I agree. One of the most irresponsible and just down right bad reviews of a book I ever read was a review of R. Scott Bakker's The Darkeness that Comes Beofre where the reviewer trashed the book and the author when admitting to have read only six pages. To top it off, the reviewer couldn't even accurratley state what happened in those 6 pages she did read.
If you don't read it, you don't have the right to critique it.
Darren wrote: "Well, Anne, if you think about it logically, the person/people who give up on the book first are much more likely to post before the people who are savouring every page."Since you neither seem to get my point or even try to nor seem to get how condescending you sound, I give up. Congratulations, you won.
Darren wrote: "Nick wrote: "@Darren - I'm lemming this discussion based on the fact I dislike the way you argue or hell .. I just don't like your name or maybe its a Tuesday. Good enough for you? See how this ..."I wasn't off topic. And you didn't get the point. I was drawing a parallel with my reasons which I was mockingly giving for lemming this discussion to your decision to lem this book. My reasons I gave weren't providing any constructive reasons for lemming a thread and I felt neither were your reasons for lemming this book.
And yes, you set the tone for this thread with you topic header. So you have no basis to get offended when I said you were trolling.
Go back to feeling superior if you wish and I'll return to my best attempt at ignoring you.
First of all, saying something is written in the passive voice is not literary criticism. That is simply insulting to anyone who has ever taken a university critical theory course. If you would like to understand literary criticism better, I would honestly suggest The Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism. It is really a great source and one I can't help but thumb through when I am working on scholarly material to remind myself of how critical theory operates.If you were genuinely trying to cultivate a constructive discussion on the book or the style of writing, wouldn't you want to do more than just stick a label on what you perceive is poor writing technique? You could have drawn a comparison to other books you haven't liked the first page of or show how reader response theory supports your claim of bad writing. Certainly you have every freedom to create threads and trash a book for transparent reasons. But if you want to have a solid and ripe discussion, try doing more than simply saying "done, lemmed, or bad first page." Try contributing more than the desire to evoke this type of thread.
Point being, I think it's fine if you dislike the book and toss it across the room. But don't insult my intelligence and anyone else's by claiming you weren't trying to gain attention by inflammatory thread titles and comments.
If you're going to be an ass, be an ass, don't be an ass and try to pretend you aren't.
That being said, I hope you can find another good book to read as reading is what has brought all of us together.
Darren just so you know the whole book does not sound like you described ( I understand where you are going ) it evens out very quickly into straight story telling from first person perspective and tells a very good story without all the "contrived and Grating" style.If you had gotten in a few pages you would have noticed the only time the narrator does that is when he is speaking in his present time as an elderly man not when he is telling the story.
I believe it to be a device Hobb uses to separate the character's elder experienced self from his younger story and growth
Darren wrote: I think of this as passive because the object has been pushed to the front of the sentence, as in the passive. This is clearly done for stylistic effect, But it's not a true passive, so my bad there. What else to call that, rearranging the word order to sound old-fashioned? Still sounds passive to me, and in any case contrived and grating.
"
Well, yeah it is rearranging words to sound old fashioned. Works for me. First of all and word order was much freer in older forms of English and still is in some of its dialects. (Check out the Canterbury Tales, sentences ending in verbs all over the place).
"Sidebar: Taker his name was" is not a sentence construction that would be much more than a generation out of of date in ordinary speech in Ireland.
Anyway as others have said, this style of writing lasts for two paragraphs, it's our veiw point character's attempt to write a history, we then shift voice from studied and academic to a less formal first person present narration and
"My pen falters, then falls from my knuckly grip, leaving a worm's trail of ink across Fedwren's paper. I have spoiled another leaf of this fine stuff, in what I suspect is a futile endeavour. I wonder if I can write this history, or if on every page there will be some sneaking show of bitterness I though long dead."
Perfectly normal sentence construction. (I know some people don't like present tense narration, we'll switch to past tense in a few paragraphs. Gosh, I'm now fascinated with with perspectival shifts in this opening paragraph)
I really wish some folks would learn to just skip the threads they don't like.
You knew it was probably a lem thread just from the title. Reading the first sentence confirms it. Just stop at that point and move to a different thread, man.
Posting just leads to the same Lem/Not-Lem discussion we've had several times already. Nothing new will come of it. No minds will be changed.
Being an asshole to fellow S&Lers accomplishes nothing.
You knew it was probably a lem thread just from the title. Reading the first sentence confirms it. Just stop at that point and move to a different thread, man.
Posting just leads to the same Lem/Not-Lem discussion we've had several times already. Nothing new will come of it. No minds will be changed.
Being an asshole to fellow S&Lers accomplishes nothing.
Ala wrote: "I really wish some folks would learn to just skip the threads they don't like.You knew it was probably a lem thread just from the title. Reading the first sentence confirms it. Just stop at that ..."
I know you're right, Ala. Sheesh. I'll stop now and just read the book.
Knuckly grip bothers me more than pen falters.I'm not going to argue that the writing is the best (it's Hobb's characters and story that really attract me), but it's not terrible. I like the image of pen faltering and ink trailing down the page, ruined paper, before a slow pan in on the subject. Attributing the action to the pen, rather than the narrator, disassociates the reader from the action, but that's true to Fitz's current mindset. He's becoming lost in memory, distracted from the task at hand, unable to accomplish his task. While the passive voice is not in use there is a sense of passivity here, I find it appropriate.
I mean, if you don't like it that's fine. But I do think you're being overly harsh about an opening that's not to your taste but isn't objectively bad.
Darren,You made me look. :D (I planned to sit this one out as I am under the impression that the finale will depress me for days.)
That being said, I found the first page italicized. Which to me says, "I know this is boring, just get past it and you will be fine." Yes, truly, my eyes glazed over. Moving on to the 2nd page, the pace picks up. Since you paid for it, you may as well read the 2nd page. Right? :D
@Darren - That style is reserved for the short histories that precede the chapters. The actual story is not written in the passive. At least I didn't notice if they were. But the snippets of history I think are stylistically different to distinguish them from the main narrative.
Kate wrote: "Knuckly grip bothers me more than pen falters.I'm not going to argue that the writing is the best (it's Hobb's characters and story that really attract me), but it's not terrible. I like the imag..."
I'm learning so much today! Thanks Kate and Darren, too (if not for Darren starting this thread, I would remain ignorant).
Since you paid for it, you may as well read the 2nd page. Right?"My sentiments exactly.
The italicised parts at the beginning of each chapter are really nothing like the rest of the story. They're just background information really. And anyway, they're supposed to be written by Fitz, who, much as I love him, is not exactly the sharpest sword in the armoury.
I'm torn in this thread!Hobb's use of the passive voice is why I quit reading her books a few years ago. However, it wasn't in Assassin's Apprentice that I felt this was a problem. And now, looking back, I don't find the passive voice that so drove me crazy in her later books. (Seriously? A sex scene in the passive?* Come on.) What I do see is the writing style that will one day develop into what I find unreadable. So I sympathize with Darren and I do know exactly where he's coming from.
All that being said, I don't agree with the decision to quit reading it. You can't fairly evaluate a book unless you give it a full faith effort. I say this and I've read a book that I got so angry with inn it's despicable writing and plot decisions that my sister and I literally tore it horizontally in half. (it was a paperback book - no I won't say which one it was!) It's mere existence was an insult to our intelligence, so we had to make it go away in a satisfying fashion. I still got about halfway through that book. Only once have I felt so strongly about something in a book that I willfully decided not to read it within the first chapter, after throwing it across the room in disgust.
If you have better things to do with your time, so be it. But if you're a critic you have to sit through the whole movie.
*I read pieces of this passive novel to my traveling companion and she didn't see anything wrong with it, not even the sex scene. To each their own.
Mod
This.
To Darren:
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the first page of this book. It pains me to hear it (since this is one of my favorite stories in the fantasy genre) but you're allowed your opinion, of course.
However, we are trying to create a culture of constructive criticism, and I have to agree with many of the more level-headed comments in this thread about not creating inflammatory subject headers about "lemming" the picks immediately. It really kills the spirit of the club and bums people (like me) the fuck out.
How would I fix this? Maybe a title like "Passive voice in first page a warning sign" or "Passive voice: bugging anyone else?" Catch my drift?
I have no idea why people are arguing. The post was all about drawing attention to it and how he dislikes a particular piece of the writing style. I would bet that there is a topic like this one for every book read on this site.just because the word lem had been coined does not mean that it was never there before.
I agree with the other posters and say that lemming at the beginning of the book isn't fair to the book (i used to hate books in first person but look at how many great ones there are!) but he doesn't want to read it and is obviously dead set against giving it a try and also felt the need to let people know.
everyone is also very defensive in this thread which makes it a flame thread in my opinion. posted to make people draw lines in the dirt.
I say walk away guys. just walk away.
@kp - Not sure when the post title changed, but the original title was something like "Sorry Enforced Positivity Police". It was a trollish title and let's be serious, lemming a book one page in isn't even a vague attempt at anything like a review. It's just attention seeking. The best thing that could happen to this thread would be to lock it if that's possible on GR.
Rick wrote: "The best thing that could happen to this thread would be to lock it if that's possible on GR."Lock it?! It's the most active thread on the book so far!
aldenoneil wrote: "Rick wrote: "The best thing that could happen to this thread would be to lock it if that's possible on GR."Lock it?! It's the most active thread on the book so far!"
Awwwwww, aldenoneil, now you made me laugh. We were all so dead serious here and now you spoiled it.
i must confess i had some issues whith the first few chapters, but once I walked thgrough them I finished the whole trilogy in one night
Veronica wrote: "It really kills the spirit of the club and bums people (like me) the fuck out."hear hear. I think you got to the heart of the matter there.
I breezed through the free preview on Google Play. No issues with the writing. As soon as I finish devouring Caliban's War I'll be buying this little puppy.I highly recommend reading free previews online before buying books. Avoid buying books you don't like!
Agrajag wrote: "I breezed through the free preview on Google Play. No issues with the writing. As soon as I finish devouring Caliban's War I'll be buying this little puppy.I highly recommend reading free preview..."
That's what I love the Kindle for. Download a sample, start reading and then decide. I didn't read Tigana partly because I couldn't really get into it. The free samples are usually long enough to provide you with a general sense of the book.
(I do believe that I might have really liked it, but I needed something different and just wasn't in the mood. I guess I'll just come back to it at a later time.)
Veronica wrote: "Anne wrote: "Reading just one page and then putting it away is quitting, not lemming. Lemming requires a certain amount of effort to actually try to finish it."This
To Darren:
I'm sorry you di..."
I very much agree with the sentiments here, I was so excited to see assassins apprentice as a book pick I have been wanting to explore the robin hobb books for a while now, this thread bums me a little and kind of spoils the start of this months pick for me. To me this book club and the vf bookclub that I follow are about exploring I thought i was a sci-fi and fantasy fan until i started listening to the sword and laser podcast and realised how little I'd experienced of these genres and I want to explore more, the same with romance books for the vf club, so to me part of this experience is trying books out some your gonna love and be so excited about and will want to devour every single book in the series others wont be for you like gabriels ghost wasnt for us right veronica ?!! But we read through the book and waited until half way through the book or the end of the book until stating anything constructivly negative, keep it constructive and for me not so soon into the months pick
To Darren:I was more worried about the melodramatic tone of the beginning than the passive tense. I have nothing against passive in and of itself. Melodrama on the other hand... However, I thought there were some very nice parts (view spoiler). I enjoy when a story can move from broad descriptions to something small but emotional. I'll keep reading.
Anne wrote: "That's what I love the Kindle for. Download a sample, start reading and then decide. I didn't read Tigana partly because I couldn't really get into it. The free samples are usually long enough to provide you with a general sense of the book..."I use Kindle samples to preview audiobooks too. I think the sound samples should be longer.
*cries*I can now no longer do my reread without assessing each clause as 'passive' or 'active' voice. This is incredibly irritating and I blame all of you.
And to think that at first this book had intrigued me, but now I find myself undone.
The Sword and Laser
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