The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov discussion
This topic is about
The Master and Margarita
M&M Discussion
>
The Master and Margarita: Part One, Chapters 1-9
Mary wrote: "Carol wrote: "You guys are losing me. I feel a little silly trying to keep up with the discussion. You guys are all so incredibly intelligent! It's intimidating."Don't be intimidated, just pull u..."
Thanks. I'm pulling up a chair as we speak! : )
But still, I am losing confidence and feeling a little discouraged. Maybe I'm just having a crappy day. I'll stop whining now!
Pass the margarita!
Mod
Oh Carol, that's the last way I want you to feel. Mary's right - we're all learning from each other. And I think that one of the wonderful things about TM&M is that there are so many levels to appreciate the book. We're talking a lot about critical approaches, but I think an equally important avenue for discussion is our reactions to passages, characters, scenes, etc. I think we need to stay grounded, and no reactions are wrong or bad. There's a lot of insight to be shared on that crucial level.
So, what are general reactions to TM&M so far? Characters we love, characters we hate, scenes we laughed at or are puzzling us still.
Carol wrote: "Thanks. I'm pulling up a chair as we speak! : )But still, I am losing confidence and feeling a little discouraged. Maybe I'm just having a crappy day. I'll stop whining now!
Pass the margarita!"
I felt that way yesterday so I started over. I read a lot of the background stuff Kris provided and took notes. I feel a lot better about it today.
Blended or on the rocks? Salt?
Kris wrote: "So, what are general reactions to TM&M so far? Characters we love, characters we hate, scenes we laughed at or are puzzling us still. "The imagery is stunning. Truly. The constant moon/sun/sunset references over Moscow (which I've always wanted to visit). I'm loving seeing the scenes in burnt orange lighting, people squinting in the light, shielding the sun from their faces etc. Megan's observations about this were great, people being blinded, skewed vision...
Mary wrote: "Jim wrote: "The combination of familiar details (from my Christian upbringing) and the completely novel, very human perspective of the procurator is very powerful for me."You hit the nail on the head for me - I think I was jarred by chapter 2 so much because I am very unfamiliar with biblical events..."
Thanks, Mary! There was a comment in the B&O Afterword to the effect that Bulgakov (and Tolstoy and others) were much more interested in the life and personage of Jesus/Yeshua than in the religion that was created in his name. That comment really resonated with me and my views, and the Pilate chapters here are truly fascinating for me on those grounds alone.
And of course (slight spoiler), the interplay between the Moscow and Yershalaim chapters becomes a signature feature of the book. I expect we will be discussing that later.
Kris wrote: "Characters we love, characters we hate, scenes we laughed at or are puzzling us still." I love the first scene with the cat. The way he's walking on his hind legs and acting like a human, and jumps on the rear of the tram at the end and holds onto a hose.
"Neither the conductress nor the passengers were struck by the essence of the matter: not just that a cat was boarding a tram-car, which would have been good enough, but that he was going to pay!"
Hilarious imagery all through page 50 (P&V edition). But...why is Ivan the only one who sees the cat's behavior as strange? Is he the only one who sees the cat/devil?
.... Another representation of split society/skewed vision to go with Ivan's "Schizophrenia" - p.43"...and only here did it occur to the friends to take a good look in his eyes, at which they became convinced that his left eye, the green one, was totally insane, while the right one was empty, black and dead."
Mary wrote: ""Neither the conductress nor the passengers were struck by the essence of the matter: not just that a cat was boarding a tram-car, which would have been good enough, but that he was going to pay!"It's funny because I remember the essence of that passage, but in my head I remember it a little differently. Probably because in my world, it went something like this:
But neither the conductress nor the passengers were amazed by the most important thing of all, namely, that a cat was not merely getting on the streetcar, which wasn't so bad, but that he intended to pay his fare!
Is that the B&O translation Jason?
Mary wrote: "Is that the B&O translation Jason?"Aye.
That's funny. I think it was Mark that commented on P&V sounding more "Russian", and comparing these two lines I can see what he means. The B&O above flows better, but P&V is more abrupt and, er, "Russian". IMO.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "I'm thinking I may have hit my first non-likey of a P&V translation. It's very stiff - as in dead."It reminds me of the way the Eastern European relatives & friends I know speak. They would exclaim "he was going to pay!" vs. "he intended to pay his fare!".
Mary wrote: "That's funny. I think it was Mark that commented on P&V sounding more "Russian", and comparing these two lines I can see what he means. The B&O above flows better, but P&V is more abrupt and, er,..."I agree completely.
I enjoyed Chapter Deux, but whatever. I enjoy everything. I need to learn to start hating more stuff.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "Ichthys being the 'proper' name that I can never spell without looking up."The Chaldaic peoples used to portray the figure of a fish with the head of a swallow, as a harbinger of cyclic regeneration, an idea directly related to the symbolism of Pisces, the last sign of the Zodiac." - From Dictionary of Symbols. "
Ichthus being Greek for "fish." It was used by early christians to identify themselves to each other while they were hiding in catacombs, etc. The symbol was chosen because it was an acronym for the trinity. I can parse the Greek for it, but that would require some typsetting effort on my part.
The Chaldeans were more or less Babylonians, those nasty folks that screwed up he Hebrews' nation for a while, several centuries prior to 0 BC/AD. Chaldean symbolism would only very remotely be related to the early church.
But the swallows could be a reconfiguration of the holy spirit represented by a dove, or those birds in the Noah's Ark story. (And, better, Kris' quotation below).
And for what little it's worth, chapter two was a fantastic re-imagining of a well-known bit of christian gospel narration. The imaginative reconstruction of the character of Jesus could parallel similar narratives in Soviet narratology and hagiography.
Mod
I remember reading about swallows hibernating in mud before - probably in some medieval bestiaries.
Kris wrote: "For this reason it also became a symbol for resurrection."Which would make sense of their presence in the second chapter, however I wanted to note that in the first chapter, it was blackbirds that were circling overhead when Woland spoke of Anuschka spilling the sunflower oil, giving the statement a more ominous feel.
Mod
Good catch, Mikki.
Mod
I agree with you, Mary. There are stunning descriptions throughout, and a lot of vivid color symbolism. The sun/moon symbolism constitutes some of my favorite passages in TM&M, especially toward the end of the second part.
Mary wrote: "Hilarious imagery all through page 50 (P&V edition). But...why is Ivan the only one who sees the cat's behavior as strange? Is he the only one who sees the cat/devil?."
Could this be part of Ivan's role as a witness? He sees the cat, but no one else does. He tries to warn people about Woland, and he's hospitalized for schizophrenia.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "I was connecting swallows to Ichthys. "I'm not sure which field I went afoul of. But I've no doubt you are clearer on the Chaldean than I. Thanks.
And on the other side, I think I'm boating along with you on the status of this peculiar P&V. ; )
Moonbutterfly wrote: "Yeah, I'm not digging it. I'm actually gonna bail on the book, until I get the B&O translation. I don't want to get a bad impression because I don't like the translation. "I'm gunna stick it out perhaps because I bought this one new, which is not my habit. But I'm also not happy with what sounds to me like a chattiness or casualness of the B&O, irregardless of the question of reproduction of Bulgakov's Russian voice. Or I'm just a stick in the mud. . . ; )
Kris wrote: "...characters are actively engaged in writing throughout TM&M, as indicating that a character within TM&M is narrating the novel."I am only on chapter 9, but so far have the impression that we are listening to a single narrator, one who is or has engaged with the characters and is familiar with the venues. This is most apparent in chapter 5, The Incident at Griboyedov, when he momentarily digresses and begins reminiscing about the sumptuous meals served in the restaurant, then quickly apologizes to the reader and continues on with the story.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "You use the word "casualness" and that was my worry with B&O. "Moonbutterfly, if it helps any, though I generally prefer P&V translations, specifically Tolstoy's stories, I chose to read B&O on this occasion because after comparing the two versions, they effortlessly capture the humor of the story which is something P&V failed to do. An odd miss because in most of their translated works, their ability to convey a lightness in the storytelling while still not 'dumbing' down the writing is what they accomplish best.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "I'm gunna stick it out perhaps because I bought this one new, which is not my habit. But I'm also not happy with what sounds to me like a chattiness or casualness of the B&O, irregardless of the question of reproduction of Bulgakov's Russian voice. Or I'm just a stick in the mud. . . ; ) "Well, the "chattiness or casualness" is more faithful to the spirit of Bulgakov's book. The language he uses is very light, very casual, very non-stiff - basically the opposite of what most people tend to think of when they think about Russian literature. This is partly what makes TM&M such an easy and enjoyable read.
Bulgakov's language reflects the atmosphere, the setting of the story - especially in the early Moscow chapters that feature a medley of Soviet-bourgeois and low-educated characters and pompous pseudo-intellectuals.
Mary wrote: ""Neither the conductress nor the passengers were struck by the essence of the matter: not just that a cat was boarding a tram-car, which would have been good enough, but that he was going to pay!"
Hilarious imagery all through page 50 (P&V edition). But...why is Ivan the only one who sees the cat's behavior as strange? Is he the only one who sees the cat/devil?"
I think what Bulgakov is getting at here is the common reaction when confronted with something so surreal and so outside of your comfort zone - it's natural to grasp at the details that do make sense while overlooking the unbelievable. Hence the people focusing on the 'no cats in the tram' rule instead of wondering about the seemingly intelligent animal who attempts to pay. Mind's self-defense, I'd say.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Actually, the only absolute evil in this story seems to be the society, really.."That claim, I think, needs some evidence. At the very least, 'society' has to be set in motion over-against the very characters of which it is constructed. How does one get from characters which are neither good nor evil to a collective entity which is absolutely evil? If Bulgakov is depicting Soviet society as merely absolutely evil without ambiguity I'll be tempted to put the book down as propaganda. As a novel, if it succeeds as a novel, it will have to be more subtle and nuanced than that. But I'm only in chapter 10 and have not yet come across any characterizations of 'society.'"
Ok, let me explain, since my quick typing before heading off to work definitely was not enough to get my meaning through. What I meant about the 'evil' society is the following: Bulgakov was not really a fan of the new Soviet state, and it is very clear from the way he describes the new society that emerged after the Revolution. Coming from the intelligentsia background, being highly educated, having refined cultural tastes, he seemed quite shocked at the 'new' world where ignorance, rudeness, bureaucracy, red tape, and fake flaunting of communist ideals was the norm. Many of his views were expressed by Professor Preobrazhensky in "The Heart of a Dog" including his famous statement, "No, I don't like proletariat." This society, fake, burgeois but masking as 'communist', filled with ignorance is the one inhabited by the characters in this story, and it feels repulsive and suffocating to the point of feeling evil. Not to ay that Bulgakov only blames the new Soviet agenda - after all, Woland does remark that the Moscow people have not really changed that much. Human nature, I suppose...
That's what I wanted to say, and probably did not say that well going on over a week of getting 5-hour sleep at night.
Awesome comments, Nataliya (messages 84 and 85)!Can't you just call in sick for a few days and talk to us?
Mod
Can't you just call in sick for a few days and talk to us?"
I second Jim. :)
I third it, but I doubt my colleagues would appreciate that!
Nataliya wrote: "I third it, but I doubt my colleagues would appreciate that!"Well, it was worth a try! Your thoughts are certainly very much appreciated here. So if they start yelling at you, or you know, annoying you too much - well, you know where you can go for some fun!
Just saying...
Before I try and summarize my thoughts on chapter's 1-9 and answer Kris's questions, I just wanted to say that at the ending of the last chapter, Korovyov's Tricks, it really felt as if it were a play with the curtains closing on the first act.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "You use the word "casualness" and that was my worry with B&O. "It might be a (the?) casualty of the translation.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "Thanks, that is good to know. I'm a huge fan of P&V (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy) but something happened here. I guess I'm not a purist. LOL"I stopped trying to find fault in P&V about 150 pages in and then got on a bit of a roll.
I'm just one chapter in (B&O) - but I wanted to say WOW. What a great opening chapter. The foreboding, ominous atmosphere (a product of the narration); the (whoever it is - not sure yet) "foreigner" who appears and is characterized as a completely different creature depending on which side you look at him, the references to the devil in colloquial expressions, the symbolism (apricots anyone? - are they drinking apricot juice in other translations? It is so specific, it must have meaning) ... and on and on. This is reminding me how lovely it is to toss that damn goodreads book challenge to the ... devil ... and really read.
Kris wrote: "I'm interested in hearing about people's reactions to the Chapter 2, Pontius Pilate - how it affected you when you read it, what struck you about Bulgakov's approach, what effect it had on the open..."I really enjoyed this chapter and wasn't in any hurry to get back to Moscow...maybe it's the lover of historical fiction in me. I was interested to see a certain duality in the portrayal of Yeshua: at first it seemed like Bulgakov was going with the "of course it was all a big misunderstanding...he was just a guy" approach to his portrayal of Jesus, and yet he dropped in bits and pieces that seemed to imply there really was something more about this person, though it's unclear (at this point at least) exactly what that may have been.
I also liked the stylistic use of repetition for the first line of the Master's manuscript between the end of the previous chapter and the beginning of this one.
Mod
I'm so glad you're loving TM&M so far! I agree that the first chapter is engaging - it drew me in immediately. It's also very interesting to revisit once you have finished the novel, since Bulgakov sets the scene for the rest of the novel so beautifully.
Mod
Terry, I had similar reactions to the portrayal of Yeshua. I love the way that Bulgakov kept me on my toes in chapter 2 - the nuances in his writing, the very specific details he changed, everything came together to get me to read very closely.
Mod
Mikki, you have a wonderful way with words, and I love the insight and care you bring to your reading.
Kris wrote: "Mikki, you have a wonderful way with words, and I love the insight and care you bring to your reading."Thank you, Kris! By nature I'm a slow reader because I'm very much into the language and rhythm of the story. I'm finding that I'm enjoying taking time with this book and even flipping back in order to reread passages. My poor little book is a rainbow of those little memo stickies!
Mod
Thank you, Kris! By nature I'm a slow reader because I'm very much into the la..."
Slow reading has a lot of benefits, especially with a novel like TM&M - so many specific words, phrases, symbols, etc. to explore and consider.
Jennifer (aka EM) wrote: "I'm just one chapter in (B&O) - but I wanted to say WOW. What a great opening chapter. The foreboding, ominous atmosphere (a product of the narration); the (whoever it is - not sure yet) "foreigner..."Awesome Jennifer! I agree, the first chapter is so great, it instantly creates the atmosphere for the book. Not many authors can achieve that within the first few pages!
Mikki wrote: "Thank you, Kris! By nature I'm a slow reader because I'm very much into the language and rhythm of the story. I'm finding that I'm enjoying taking time with this book and even flipping back in order to reread passages. My poor little book is a rainbow of those little memo stickies! "This is a good habit to have. One thing goodreads and these group reads have taught me is to slow down and savior passages. I've been so used to reading fast all these years, I have changed that over the past few months and it's really enriched my appreciation for what I'm reading.
Kris wrote: "I remember reading about swallows hibernating in mud before - probably in some medieval bestiaries."In some medieval apothecaries, the alchemists had learned how to reverse the normal process and transmute a bitter pill to swallow.
Mod
You should pop in for a little vial, darlink.
Mod
Mod
Mod
That would be great. I have grown to hate that little girl intensely.
Moonbutterfly wrote: "I think the M&M cat should replace the cute little girl on the GoodReads capacity error page. Just saying."Yep, Alice can go right on back to Wonderland. At least Behemoth could magically make the page appear though of course it'll probably cost ya!
Moonbutterfly and Kris:Good stuff! Thanks for your insights on my questions.
Mod
Good stuff! Thanks for your insights on my questions."
My pleasure, Judith - they were great questions!
The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov
Books mentioned in this topic
The Master and Margarita (other topics)The Journey Through Wales / The Description of Wales (other topics)
The History and Topography of Ireland (other topics)
Signs and Symbols in Christian Art (other topics)
The Shape of Apocalypse in Modern Russian Fiction (other topics)
More...
Don't be intimidated, just pull up a chair next to me here at the margarita bar and listen in :) These guys are amazing, I gain brain cells just clicking into this group. I know it's going to take me forever to read M&M because I keeping having "ah-ha" moments reading member's insights and wanting to go back and see for myself.