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January > Chapters 11 - 20

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message 1: by Rhi (new)

Rhi | 76 comments Mod
:)


message 2: by Debra (new)

Debra | 7 comments finished this whilst on holidays..... just 2 days and was gone.... I always feel a bit flat when I finish a great story I become immersed in the lives of the characters and find it hard to get them out of my mind...... I love this book.... Jane Austen characters are timeless.......I love Elizabeth Bennet my all time favourite heroine....this book is one of those classics to be reread ...


message 3: by Staci (last edited Jan 27, 2009 05:42PM) (new)

Staci I marked the last line from Chapter 11 because this is where you really get the idea that Darcy, even though he believes his station is above hers, has become to enjoy Elizabeth Bennett.

He began to feel the danger of paying Elizabeth too much attention.

I made a note in my book about how he can't help it even if she's of a "much lower class", she's irresistible. I find myself wanting to be her friend too.




message 4: by Staci (new)

Staci Question for thought and hopefully some discussion:

Jane Austen's original title for the novel was First Impressions. What role do first impressions play in this book so far?

Are you quick to make first impressions?




message 5: by Heather (new)

Heather (heathercollins) These characters seem to make an impression before even meeting another individual, especially someone worthy of marriage. It seems the like or dislike is based on salary and lineage/family history. So I'd say first impressions are huge. I tend to make quick first impressions. The 1st time I saw my husband I knew I wanted to be his wife. On the other hand I tend to be less quick to judge when it comes to kids I come in contact with at the school.

Just some discussion..... :)


message 6: by Staci (new)

Staci thanks Heather!! We've got to liven this place up some!!

I agree with you...many impressions are based solely on their social status. At times it doesn't seem as if anyone takes into account good character, humor, or any other qualities.

At times I do admit that I have made quick judgment calls on adults...and found out later, much like Elizabeth, that I was totally wrong. Like you Heather, I don't judge the kids that way either.


message 7: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Staci wrote: "Question for thought and hopefully some discussion:

Jane Austen's original title for the novel was First Impressions. What role do first impressions play in this book so far?

Are you quick to ma..."


I'm finding myself quickly forming impressions of the characters from the little bit I've seen of them thus far...but there's been enough hints dropped that I know things aren't going to work out like I think they are...

I have the feeling that something will be revealed, especially concerning the whole situation between Darcy and the other guy (can't remember his name right now).


message 8: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Heather wrote: "These characters seem to make an impression before even meeting another individual, especially someone worthy of marriage. It seems the like or dislike is based on salary and lineage/family history..."

So much of this is a class issue too. I'm sure it wasn't helped by a society in which "manners" and etiquette governed so much of what you could and couldn't say to people...

Part of me, despite disliking Mrs. Bennett, can't help but feel sorry for her. After all, she's simply trying to make sure that her daughters will all be provided for in the future once she and Mr. Bennett are dead. In all practicality, looking for husbands with money who will take care of them would probably be my main concern as well. Miss Lucas, once she becomes engaged to Mr. Collins (what an annoying character -- and there's something shifty going on there, I think) -- is awfully realistic about the entire situation. She knows she is no great beauty and simply wants a comfortable future. She knows Mr. Collins will give her that. It's sad...


message 9: by Staci (last edited Jan 31, 2009 03:07PM) (new)

Staci
doesn't it make you sad to realize that women born during this time were really limited as to who they could choose from to marry? Not only that but to settle...we marry for love (most of us) but for them it really was a matter or life or poverty!!









message 10: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Staci wrote: "
doesn't it make you sad to realize that women born during this time were really limited as to who they could choose from to marry? Not only that but to settle...we marry for love (most of us) but ..."


and if you refused to settle, then you were labeled with all types of names and sometimes even institutionalized.

the farther I get through the novel, though, the more I'm torn at times in my opinion of Elizabeth. She's sometimes too negative and quick to find fault in others; and when you set that up against Jane's idealism, it really shows.


message 11: by Staci (new)

Staci I'm at the part in the novel where Jane has had to admit that maybe Miss Bingley isn't as nice as she portrays herself to be. Jane is very slow to draw conclusions of anyone, rather she assumes the best of everyone until absolute proof is given that she should feel otherwise.

Elizabeth is very headstrong...Mr. Bennett has allowed her way too much freedom in expressing herself freely, maybe?


message 12: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Staci wrote: "I'm at the part in the novel where Jane has had to admit that maybe Miss Bingley isn't as nice as she portrays herself to be. Jane is very slow to draw conclusions of anyone, rather she assumes the..."
That's possible -- and I'm quite surprised that both parents would profess to like / dislike Elizabeth more / less than their other children. But with Elizabeth, I think it's really a case of Austen playing her against Jane, so that we get two very opposing character views.



message 13: by Staci (new)

Staci Or maybe Mrs. Bennett knows that with Jane's beauty she is sure to be married off soon so she is easy to like. but with Elizabeth's outspokenness (if this is a word?) she fears that her chances of marriage declines each time she opens her mouth, therefore her disliking her. While Mr. Bennett maybe likes her for more selfish reasons...she's the only one in the house that he can have a decent conversation with.


message 14: by Rhi (new)

Rhi | 76 comments Mod
Elizabeth. She's sometimes too negative and quick to find fault in others; and when you set that up against Jane's idealism, it really shows.

100% Audrey.
I think thats one of the reasons i love her most though, because she is a heroine who is actually so life like, but still so loveable.
i know i am always quick to jump to opinions about everyone and everything, i love that austen didn't feel the need to make her so completely unrealistic. she has flaws.


message 15: by Renae (new)

Renae (renaeclark) | 58 comments On Mrs. Bennett . . . I think she is so self-consumed with herself and how others' view her family, she can't see straight! Most notably, she can't see the reality of her daughters wants. She was clueless about Lydia (even when Elizabeth brought it to their attention) and about Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy. It seems that the only thing important to a mother and her daughters (in their day) was to seek and find a husband that would position them all well into the future. I imagine this to be a much simpler job than we all have today which is to be everything to everyone, but then again, I'm not doomed for each tiny mistake or error in judgement I may make along the way.

On an entirely different note this book reminded me of the importance of letter writing and that I have to do more of it. Did anyone else think of this?


message 16: by Staci (new)

Staci On an entirely different note this book reminded me of the importance of letter writing and that I have to do more of it. Did anyone else think of this?

yes it did, but 84 Charing Cross Road is the book to read for letter writing!! The letters in this book will bring about many emotions and most of all make you want to take up paper and pen again instead of a keyboard!!


message 17: by Melbg (new)

Melbg | 16 comments Sometimes I feel like I am being transported back to being a teenager - on the one hand so positive and not able to think wrong of a person (Jane) and at other times negative, critical , disappointed in many people, misunderstood etc. (Elizabeth). They both choose only to see one layer of reality and I believe if you would put the two together you would end up with a really nice, level-headed, kind, thoughtful, happy person. One who believes in the good in people, who will not judge before having heard all sides but who is also able to realise that people play games or have an agenda and are to some extent egoist.




message 18: by Tara (new)

Tara | 13 comments Staci wrote: Or maybe Mrs. Bennett knows that with Jane's beauty she is sure to be married off soon so she is easy to like. but with Elizabeth's outspokenness (if this is a word?) she fears that her chances of marriage declines each time she opens her mouth, therefore her disliking her. While Mr. Bennett maybe likes her for more selfish reasons...she's the only one in the house that he can have a decent conversation with.

I think this is spot on. Mrs. Bennet's main objective is making sure her children have married well, so anyone who makes this difficult would be seen as a trial. Mr. Bennet seems more concerned with whether his children are intelligent and make sensible choices, perhaps assuming that a good marriage will inevitably follow.



message 19: by Tara (new)

Tara | 13 comments Staci wrote: yes it did, but 84 Charing Cross Road is the book to read for letter writing!! The letters in this book will bring about many emotions and most of all make you want to take up paper and pen again instead of a keyboard!!

I agree! I loved 84 Charing Cross Road. I'd recommend the movie, too. I hope this tangent is okay, I wanted to mention the other two books that make me want to start writing letters regularly again - Possession by A.S. Byatt (it's very dense prose and there are a couple places where it's slow, but it's a worthwhile read nonetheless, I ended up really enjoying it. And the letters are wonderful.)

Also, The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. It actually reminded me a lot of 84 Charing Cross Road, for several reasons. We read it for my local bookgroup and one of the first things that everyone mentioned was feeling a strong desire to buy stationery and resurrect the lost art of letter writing.



message 20: by Tara (new)

Tara | 13 comments One of the interesting things about the first impressions is that Elizabeth is rather insightful and practical - she often is right about first impressions, unlike Jane who sees only good until proven wrong and Mrs. Bennet who sees only marriage prospects or what society dictates. BUT, even as shrewd as she is, Elizabeth still makes mistakes by assuming things about people's character based on her first impressions. And I would think that we would all agree that based on Mr. Darcy's original impression, he should be written off entirely. I think this is a theme in some of Jane Austen's other books, too - spend time getting to know people before you make assumptions about their character.


message 21: by Staci (new)

Staci Tara...the tangent is good and fine!! That is the great thing about books. Reading one will lead you to another and then another....I loved the movie based on 84 Charing Cross...wonderful and I cried. Guernsey was fantastic too!! I've only watched the movie based on the book Possession, maybe at some future date I will attempt this book. And you're so right...letter writing is a lost art form!!


message 22: by Staci (new)

Staci I think this is a theme in some of Jane Austen's other books, too - spend time getting to know people before you make assumptions about their character.

What is so sad is that they never really were allowed to spend any "quality" time with each other without it being frowned upon. Look at what happened to Marianne in Sense and Sensibility when she let her heart rule all of her emotions. I am more like Marianne and could not fathom marrying someone so quickly and without much conversation as Charlotte Lucas did when she married Mr. Collins!! And if you notice, it wasn't until Elizabeth was able to spend real quality time with Darcy at Pemberly that she realized she had misjudged his character. I made a note in one of those chapters concerning this visit that I thought Darcy was extremely SHY and to cover up for that he came across pompous and proud. What do you think?


message 23: by Renae (new)

Renae (renaeclark) | 58 comments Staci, regarding your observation about Mr. Darcy . . . one could draw that conclusion OR that he was very uncomfortable in public and more of an introvert (or is they really one in the same?!). Great observation.


message 24: by Rhi (new)

Rhi | 76 comments Mod
i would very much agree with that staci. perhaps more with renae in terms of his introvertness. i think he's very secure in himself, but he just doesn't need to flaunt that around publicly.
which is why he comes across as standoffish.
maybe what people percieve as arrogant, is actually awkward.

i have read possession too tara! great letters :)


message 25: by Staci (new)

Staci i have read possession too tara! great letters :)

should I read this?


message 26: by Staci (last edited Feb 06, 2009 05:54PM) (new)

Staci Noun 1. introvert - (psychology) a person who tends to shrink from social contacts and to become preoccupied with their own thoughts

shy 1 (sh)
a. Drawing back from contact or familiarity with others; retiring or reserved.
b. Marked by reserve or diffidence:
3. Distrustful; wary: shy of strangers.


I think he fits them both!!!


message 27: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Staci wrote: "I think this is a theme in some of Jane Austen's other books, too - spend time getting to know people before you make assumptions about their character.

What is so sad is that they never really we..."


I think that does capture Darcy fairly well. I just think he has trouble relating to people that he doesn't know with any amount of ease -- and that's such a common thing, but one that can be so easily mistaken.


And on a totally different note: Lady Catherine. Ugh. I think what killed me was how almost everyone (with the exception of Elizabeth -- I think she was pretty much the only one until the end) felt so GRATEFUL that she CONDESCENDED to speak to them and spend time in their presence. Really hammered home the entire class issues at work in the novel, I thought.


message 28: by Staci (last edited Feb 06, 2009 07:32PM) (new)

Staci And on a totally different note: Lady Catherine. Ugh.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. What I can't stand is she thinks because she is RICH that she can act in any matter that she so desires with absolutely no consequence to her. That is until she meets Elizabeth...loved that entire chapter which revolves around their discussion regarding Darcy and not accepting an engagement proposal from him.


message 29: by Tara (new)

Tara | 13 comments I've never thought of it in those terms, but it does seem like Darcy is introverted and maybe shy, too.

I agree with everything everyone's said about Lady Catherine so far - in a novel full of frustrating characters, she's one of the worst. "Ugh" is right. I'm just glad she ends up being useful in the end :)


message 30: by Rhi (new)

Rhi | 76 comments Mod
Staci wrote: "i have read possession too tara! great letters :)

should I read this? "


uhhhh. one day, definitely. i think its probably a must read book for all literature fanatics.
but it wasn't a real enjoyable read for me. maybe coz i was studying it at the time?




message 31: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Rhi wrote: "Staci wrote: "i have read possession too tara! great letters :)

should I read this? "

uhhhh. one day, definitely. i think its probably a must read book for all literature fanatics.
but it wa..."


I loved it -- but it was a dense read, really heavy, and slow-going. But I was on a big "interstitial fiction" kick at the time, and the fairy tale elements of the one story really kept drawing me on. Had I not had some kind of previous interest in it, I might have given up because it is not a quick read.


message 32: by Audrey (new)

Audrey (audneal) Tara wrote: "I've never thought of it in those terms, but it does seem like Darcy is introverted and maybe shy, too.

I agree with everything everyone's said about Lady Catherine so far - in a novel full of f..."


I love how you phrased that -- in a novel full of frustrating characters. That's so absolutely true. They are all frustrating and totally realistic.


message 33: by Melbg (new)

Melbg | 16 comments I did it - finished! I particularly enjoyed the witty dialogues that Elizabeth got into but I was a little disappointed with the ending. It came too suddenly after all the tension building and felt a bit rushed.


message 34: by Staci (last edited Feb 10, 2009 06:46PM) (new)

Staci I did it - finished!

I really loved it too....every single last piece of writing.


message 35: by *Lee* (last edited Mar 09, 2009 05:00AM) (new)

*Lee* DUDE - I am STILLLLL going. Argh. Life got freaking busy after I finished Breaking Dawn and my library book, and I've only been able to get like two or three pages done a night before my eyes seem to implode in tiredness, even though I have been really enjoying reading it....
Anyway, I am on around chapter 40, and should get it finished this week as I have LOTS of airport time with a trip to Sydney for work!
OHH I have to ask what is with the ------shire references?? I.just.don't.get.it. And am too lazy to go looking for other sources - can someone help a girl out???
AND btw, I reckon Darcy is totally RAD - that whole "even though your're beneath me I love you" scene at the Collins' place was GOLD! It's funny, I recall in screen versions of the book I have seen I just didnt like him as much as I have in the book. Weird!
OK back in my behind-the-times box now....LOL!


message 36: by *Lee* (new)

*Lee* OK I am finally finished. Really enjoyed the book even if some parts didn't gel too much (like why bother having Mary in the book when she is barely there and contributes nothing to the story line! I still think Collins should have married her....LOL!).
And it kind of wrapped up too quickly - after all that writing she finished the book in like 3 pages after Elizabeth and Darcy getting together! Anyway, still really enjoyable.


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