Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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AUGUST 2012 (Group Read 1): Virtues of War by Steve Pressfield
I started Virtues last night. My initial reaction is a combination of admiration for Pressfield's scholarship/knowledge and disappointment at how formal and distancing his language is. Once in a while he grabs me and puts me in that world, but usually I feel held at an arm's distance from the characters and action. I do sympathize with the challenge of depicting a man like Alexander who has the legendary aura about him and I think Pressfield wants to maintain that and that explains some of the heightened language. Hmm. I'll have to keep reading and see how it goes. Some great quotes from ancient literature--just not always sure that's the realm of fiction.
I feel kept at a distance, too. I think it's the 'I'. You need such skill at voices to entrust a novel to an 'I', and it's as if Alexander is using his dispatch-voice. If it were thoughts, and not dictation, he'd have more scope.
I hope I am not disappointed when I eventually get my ILL copy. I really enjoyed his "Gates of Fire".
Bryn wrote: "I feel kept at a distance, too. I think it's the 'I'. You need such skill at voices to entrust a novel to an 'I', and it's as if Alexander is using his dispatch-voice. If it were thoughts, and not ..."Interesting way to think about it. Usually first person gets you in closer, but I like your phrase "dispatch-voice." He is after all dictating it all as a lesson. Maybe "teacher-voice" is what we mean.... In any case, it's not an inside Alex voice.
Hi Judith, I completely agree. I felt kept at arms distance too.
Margaret wrote: "I hope I am not disappointed when I eventually get my ILL copy. I really enjoyed his "Gates of Fire"."Don't worry, Margaret, I still enjoyed the book. I may not have loved it, but I am glad I read it. There was much I enjoyed about it.
Terri wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I hope I am not disappointed when I eventually get my ILL copy. I really enjoyed his "Gates of Fire"."Don't worry, Margaret, I still enjoyed the book. I may not have loved it, ..."
Thanks Terri. Still waiting for my copy.
Yes! Thank you for saying what I've been feeling. I'm just not sucked into the world of the novel. And I think you're right, it's the "teacher voice." But, like Terri, I'm glad I'm reading it, am closing in on the end and have gotten a lot out of it, just not the other world I like to experience.
Crystal wrote: "Yes! Thank you for saying what I've been feeling. I'm just not sucked into the world of the novel. And I think you're right, it's the "teacher voice." But, like Terri, I'm glad I'm reading it, ..."You're encouraging me to keep on. I'm way slow with it because life's been so busy--running a conference, hanging with my adult kids home on a visit. But I'll persevere!
Keep chugging away, Judith.There are some really great motivational speeches in the book. I think Pressfield captured Alexander in those, so look out for them! :-)
I've been dipping in. Quite liked the battle scenes. Irked when we get a very Greek take on Persian society (as usual)... I know we're in the Greek perspective here.
Yeah, I guess the Greek perspective plays a strong part due the nature of the Greek character narrative. I wonder what the feel is in next book, The Afghan Campaign
I started this a couple of days ago. I thought it would be a quick one, being just over 300 pages. But I think it's going to take longer than expected. I'm at about page 80 is all. It's decent, but not engaging.
It is surprising that most of us have found it not engaging also, Chris. Considering how engaging his masterpiece Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae was, this book may as well be written by a completely different author.
According to my ILL record, my requested copy has shipped to my library. Hopefully it will be there for me on Saturday.
With still plenty of time left in the month, Margaret. :-)
Terri wrote: "With still plenty of time left in the month, Margaret. :-)"I know. I'm very impressed with the ILL system at the moment. :)
Finished! I don't feel like I know Alexander any better than before reading it, and it was him narrating.
What rating are you thinking?
3.5 if we could give half stars. Debating 3 or 4 since we can't.
I too would have given it 3.5 if we had half stars.
Well, if I give it 3 and you give it 4 (or vice versa) it would average it out to 3.5 between us!
But I gave it 3, so you have to give it 4! :D
hmmm... maybe there's two other readers that liked it enough to give it the 4. LOL
LOL. Well there goes that plan!
I just can't give it the 4. Now I'm off to actually rate it!
Haha. It's the thought that counts. :)
Is it just me?I'm in the late stages, and I've taken such a dislike to Alexander, I just realised I have my lips peeled off my teeth as I read. - These aren't my feelings towards the historical figure. I want/expect to like him in fiction.
I was up and down on Alexander in this book. Had my moments where I thought he was difficult to admire, that's for sure. Then there were other times where I was cheering with his men...it is a mixed bag this book. This Pressfield's Alexander is not the Alexander in my head, but I guess that is half the problem isn't it. An historical figure like that, any fiction author tackling him is likely to step on our pre conceptions toes.
Terri wrote: "An historical figure like that, any fiction author tackling him is likely to step on our pre conceptions."I try to be open-minded on interpretations, and I've never disliked him this way, in a fictional treatment. Hey I'm even happy with the film.
Later in the evening.I've gotten pretty interested in the book. And suddenly I'm happy in that I feel Alexander is offset, by Hephaestion among others (can always depend on Hephaestion) and that Pressfield has found his ways to critique him, even from inside his head.
Interesting notion that a couple of you have raised--that it's hard for the writer when we have such set notions in our heads about an historical person. We come to this book with a lot of "baggage" that Pressfield has to deal with/respond to. Perhaps the problem is partly that he hasn't pulled you into the world he creates enough to make you accept his interpretation of Alexander--that you are still distant enough to be "running" your previous notion of Alexander simultaneously against his and comparing. It's a much harder task for the writer if he or she has to quiet your view enough to listen only to this new vision. Does that make sense? I find this quite an interesting problem. How about with other books about historical people we know well (or think we do). Have you had similar problems or just with this one?
Judith wrote: "Interesting notion that a couple of you have raised--that it's hard for the writer when we have such set notions in our heads about an historical person. We come to this book with a lot of "baggage..."Thanks for the questions, Judith. I find this stuff interesting too.
No, it's just this book. I don't even have my own fixed ideas on Alexander, I've only read lightly on him and am up in the air with who I think he was. Even when I do have my ideas, I swear, I'm happy to see interpretations - and want to in a novel, and meet a novelist's construction of that person.
It isn't that I can't accept Pressfield's Alexander (while I'm in the novel) but that I disliked the person he portrays. Part of that might be an accident of first person, in that Alexander has to be self-congratulatory and to vindicate and justify himself. But the other part was his attitudes.
I think you are spot on, Judith. Some of us have this Alexander in our heads and for me it is a hurdle, but I thoroughly agree with your observation that perhaps this is due more to the 'arms length' writing given to us here by Pressfield.Of all the books I can think off the top of my head that profile famous warriors or kings. Ones I had my own interpretation of, I have never had a problem embracing an author's portrayal. This is due to the rotund nature of the story, I trust. Rich with other positives they draw me in and make me not care that the author's character and mine may be different. And then there are the books that actually change my vision of a character.
Take Pride of Carthage as an example. When I think Hannibal'now, I think the Hannibal portrayed in this book. Which is different to the Barabrian type Hannibal i had in my head before I read it.
I've given three stars and a review (mostly under spoilers) where I ramble on too much: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Some good points, bryn.
And another add to the TBR... *exagerated sigh*
I made it to the 100 page mark during lunch, finally. Then promptly passed out and damn near hit my head on the desk.I'd kill for some story and/or character development, rather than a hashing out of every spear thrust and parry, every hoofbeat walked, and every Greek or Persian name possible listed.....
I'd give up now, mate. It stays the same all the way through. In fact, it gets worse. :]
Chris wrote: "I made it to the 100 page mark during lunch, finally. Then promptly passed out and damn near hit my head on the desk.I'd kill for some story and/or character development, rather than a hashing ou..."
That is exactly how I felt when I was reading the book, I managed to finish but the last half was skimmed through.
I confess I've picked up a different book and was immediately drawn in, as opposed to having to work at it with Pressfield. Whether I return or not, unclear. I'd say I'm not a battle book reader, except that my favorite book of all time is the Iliad with bloody battle scenes all over the place.... They aren't there just for themselves, however, in Homer. I didn't get far enough to be a fair critic, in all fairness to Pressfield. It's certainly legitimate to take a while to reveal purpose.
It definitely is a hard book to keep motivated by. I can understand how you feel. I DO like battle books and even I struggled with it. I wonder how it gets so many 4 and 5 stars. I tend to think a lot of them are not genuine. No doubt some are, but it does cross my mind that maybe some rated high because it was 'Steven Pressfield' and they wanted to like it more than 3, and others gave it more because they didn't want to appear as if they 'didn't get it'. To me it doesn't matter who the author is or whether one looks less intelligent for not liking the story. It is an average book by most standards, and should only ever get 4 stars at a stretch, in my opinion.
I see his other book on Alexander, The Afghan Campaign, is told from the soldier's perspective, in the style of Pressfield's other books I think maybe that would be better. I shall keep it on the tbr.
Read this last night. Very disappointed. Nowhere near as good as Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae For a first person viewpoint, it was horribly impersonal and rather dull. :(
It was very impersonal. I agree.
I read a chapter this morning, then bailed. I'll just check out the Alexander page on Wikipedia. It's quicker (and probably more interesting).
Lol. Yes, you'll learn a lot more about Alexander by googling him than you ever will by reading this book.
Coming to this rather late, but I read Virtues of War a while back and liked it a lot, though I agree that Gates of Fire is Pressfield's masterpiece. (Don't read his Rommel book unless you enjoy stories with no ending, and his modern one - set in 2035 or something - is an exercise in Stan Nicholls-genre biff-bangery, nothing wrong with that but it ain't what he's good at IMHO). Oliver Stone based his film on V of W, and I know a nice story about Robin Lane Fox if anyone wants to hear it...
George wrote: "Oliver Stone based his film on V of W"Explains a lot. I was reading this thinking "Chicken or egg?"
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Gates of Fire (other topics)The Afghan Campaign (other topics)
Pride of Carthage (other topics)
Gates of Fire (other topics)
The Afghan Campaign (other topics)
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It rates so highly on GR. I wonder what our other members will make of it.
In our group read last month we had people giving one of the books 1 to 3 stars, and others who gave it 5 stars.
Everyone gets different things from books and you never can tell what people will like or not like.