8. CATHERINE THE GREAT - CHAPTERS FIFTY-THREE - FIFTY-SEVEN (363 - 410) ~ Aug 27th - Sept 2nd; No Spoilers, Please

[Alisa]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of Aug 27th - Sept 2nd , we are reading chapters 53 through 57 of Catherine the Great.

WEEK EIGHT - Aug 27th - Sept 2nd > Chapter 53 - 57, pp 363 - 410

Chapter 53 The King We Have Made, Chapter 54 The First Partition of Poland and the First Turkish War, Chapter 55 Doctors, Smallpox, and Plague, Chapter 56 The Return of Peter the Third, Chapter 57 The Last Days of the Marquis de Pugachev

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on July 9th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Robert K. Massie

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

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Glossary

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Bibliography

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The author Robert Massie will not be joining the discussion.

by Robert K. Massie

[Lewis]

Page 378 (chapter 54) summarizes some of Russia's military exploits. Interesting how, in that day and age, might seemed to translate into right. If a nation was big and powerful, they tended to invade others in order to expand or consolidate their borders. There didn't seem to be much emphasis on debating the ethics of such actions. Catherine certainly strengthened and expanded Russia...but was it right and honorable the way she did it? (I'm sure Russians today would say, "Oh, yes.", perhaps much as we would say the same about the Louisiana Purchase and other additions to our territory...)

[Lewis]

The compassionate and dutiful side of Catherine comes out during the terrible epidemic recounted on page 390 (chapter 55). Instead of shifting blame or being paralyzed with fear (and perhaps fleeing to Germany or elsewhere until the plague ran its course), Catherine recognized that the leader was meant or this kind of situation and that it was incumbent upon her to act and solve the crisis. That is real leadership!

[Lewis]

Catherine was great, but not perfect. Part of what made her great was her single-minded focus of what she believed she needed to do...and her ability to learn from her mistakes and then move on from them rather than becoming derailed by them. The most significant instance of this is explained on page 410 (chapter 57).

[Brian]

Lewis' point is well taken. Catherine was a realist. Her deciding that "enlightenment could not be bestowed on a nation of illiterates until the people had been prepared by education" page 410 Chapter 57 rings true.

Chapter 55 pages 389-390 are a good example. Father Ambrosius, Archbishop of Moscow hiding the icon of the Varvarsky Virgin to help stem the spread of infection, is murdered by the mob.

[Greg]

I agree that Catherine was a realist, but she was also an idealist. She wanted to reform Russia, but knew that moving too far, too fast would destabilize the country. While perhaps never totally abandoning her dreams, she was shrewd enough to know when her aims weren't practical.

[Joanne]

Catherine's stance on small pox inoculation is most impressive. She clearly faced her own fears and proved herself a leader willing to take personal risks. It is interesting to compare her actions to Thomas Jefferson, who was also forward thinking when it came to inoculating his family and slaves against small pox.

[Becky]

I agree - Chapter 55 is one of the most interesting in the book what with the smallpox and bubonic plague issues. On page Massie says General Saltykov reported more than 800 dying per day in Moscow.

In "Catherine the Great:Life and Legend: Life and Legend"
by John T. Alexander there are images of the commemorative medals in honor of Catherine, for the small pox inoculations, and of Orlov, for his work during the plague.

http://tinyurl.com/preview.php?num=95...

byJohn T. Alexander

[Kim]

Greg wrote: "I agree that Catherine was a realist, but she was also an idealist. She wanted to reform Russia, but knew that moving too far, too fast would destabilize the country. While perhaps never totally ..."

I agree with Greg. Catherine was certainly an idealist. She may have been able to see when her Enlightenment goals were not practical, however not always. Massie implies that it wasn't until the Pugachev revolt ended that she finally completely gave up her goal to end serfdom:

"She never forgot, however, that, after she had reigned for eleven years, her people, whose lives she had hoped to better, had risen against her and rallied to 'Peter III.' Nor did she forget that, once again, her supporters had been the nobility. There would be no further talk of eliminating serfdom" (p. 410, Ch. 57).

[Alisa]

Lewis wrote: "Page 378 (chapter 54) summarizes some of Russia's military exploits. Interesting how, in that day and age, might seemed to translate into right. If a nation was big and powerful, they tended to inv..."

It seemed more about empire building than stability or protecting the country. The war with the Turks wsa part of forging a sea port to enhance trade. But you are right, I think there was little thought given to if it was right in the broader sense.

[Alisa]

Greg wrote: "I agree that Catherine was a realist, but she was also an idealist. She wanted to reform Russia, but knew that moving too far, too fast would destabilize the country. While perhaps never totally ..."

She spent a great deal of intellectual tiem to thinking about the problems she confronted. You can't say she was an emotional reactionary, she thought very deeply about issues. Her constant correspondence with philosphers and others close to her illuminates that.

[Alisa]

Kim, I too lingered on that quote. I can only imagine her disappointment in having spent a lot of time on trying to make change and pursue an important ideal only to realize it was not going to happen. Must have been exhausting. Time to move onto something else, indeed.

[Alisa]

Thanks for the book addition, Becky. I think it is also mentioned in the bibliography. (the tinyurl link in your post doesn't lead to anything, can you remove it? thanks.)

[Alisa]

Joanne wrote: "Catherine's stance on small pox inoculation is most impressive. She clearly faced her own fears and proved herself a leader willing to take personal risks. It is interesting to compare her actions ..."

The innoculation stuff was forward thinking on her part, and somewhat risky given the state of how medicine was practiced. She demonstrated benevolence in setting up hospitals as well, even if people were reluctant to use them.

[Alisa]

Sorry about getting off track, an unanticipated interruption. Thanks for carrying on the discussion.

Chapter Summaries for discussion
53. The King We Have Made
Catherine took an active role in foreign affairs, a pattern she adopted from Peter the Great. Turkey and Poland lay in the path of expansion to a sea port. Poland was ruled by a weak king. Their chaotic system of government was subject to corruption and foreign meddling. With the king on his deathbed, his assumed successor was favored by many except Catherine. She wanted Stanislaus Poniatowski. She enlisted Frederick of Prussia to be her ally. Frederick agreed and extracted a Prussian-Russian treaty to do so. The ploy was successful. Catherine and her former lover corresponded warmly but she kept him at a physical distance. The throne of Poland had little appeal to Stanislaus. He appealed to her to allow his return to be by her side but she refused. Fears that she would marry her former lover to take control of Poland abounded and France and Austria demanded he marry a catholic Polish woman to become King. Catherine forced the decision on him and he became the king of Poland.

54. The First partition of Poland and The First Turkish War
‘Dissidents’ in Poland were anyone not Roman Catholic. They were harassed and denied political rights. Catherine demanded reforms to dissident rights and it put Stanislaus in the middle of controversy. Catherine sent troops to Poland to face off the ruling party objections. A Polish faction rebelled and she sent more troops to fight them off. It caused considerable angst in Europe. Battle spilled into Turkey and they declared war. Catherine had no naval fleet and rebuilt the Baltic fleet that had fallen into disrepair. To get the fleet to the Black Sea required European cooperation. Alex Orlov led the fleet to victory over the Turks, devastating their navy. The victory delighted Catherine and alarmed both allies and foes. Frederick of Prussia was sick of war and thought dividing Poland among Prussia, Austria, and Russia would satisfy everyone. He sent his brother Prince Henry to Russia to appeal to Catherine. Austria was hard pressed to join the partition of Poland but did so reluctantly. Russia stayed at war with Turkey to get another sea route. She eventually entered into a treaty and gained important access.

55. Doctors, Smallpox and Plague
Russians thought of themselves a family and rulers the parent roles. Catherine fancied herself in the maternal role – Matushka, or little mother. Her attitude extended to establishing hospitals. Personally she did not like doctors much but kept one on staff. Smallpox was threatening and did not discriminate rich or poor. She sought out inoculation whish was rudimentary but successful for her and Paul. Three years later the bubonic plague hit hard. Hundreds died daily and riots broke out as people suspicious of doctors flocked to icons in public places, worsening the matter. The country was out of control. Gregory Orlov went to Moscow to restore order. He was successful in diminishing the number of deaths and restoring some order.

56. The Return of “Peter the Third”
The Pugachevshchina rebellion came in the last year of the Turkish war. It was a group of peasants and malcontents. The uprising was led by a man claiming to be Tsar Peter III. He was a Cossack which lived in their own communities and by their own rules. The Pugachev rebellion was directed at Catherine and had followers who believed he would free the serfs and rid the nobility. He attracted volunteer military and supplies. When word reached Catherine she was not alarmed and considered it a local matter. She sent a General to take care of it but his troops were overwhelmed. Pugachev’s army unleashed brutality in villages who surrendered to escape horror. Catherine sends another general to address the growing rebellion. His forces routed Pugachev and sent them packing. The general became suddenly ill and died but managed to get a report back to Catherine that indicated Pugachev did not have foreign support.

57. The Last Days of “Marquis de Pugachev”
Pugachev resurfaced a few months later and destroyed Kazan but suffered heavy casualties. With the Turkish war ending Russian troops were heading his way. Before she learned of the defeat she reluctantly appointed Nikita Panin’s younger brother Peter to take military presence in Moscow and quell the last of the rebellion. She did not trust him and insured he had oversight and limited powers. Nonetheless he dealt harshly with those participating in the revolt. Weary rebels captured Pugachev and delivered him to Panin. He was taken to Moscow in a cage where he was interrogated. Catherine wanted to know if there was outside influence involved. He was tried and executed. No other revolt was as violent. She never forgot that the serfs had risen against her and nobility stood by her. She resolved to expand her empire and enrich Russian culture.

[Joanne]

Alisa wrote: "Thanks for the book addition, Becky. I think it is also mentioned in the bibliography. (the tinyurl link in your post doesn't lead to anything, can you remove it? thanks.)"

When I follow the link, it leads me to the pages in Alexander's book which illustrate the medals awarded to Orlov and to Catherine for their work against the plague and smallpox. Note John T. Alexander also wrote about plague: "The Bubonic Plague in Early Modern Russia: Public Health and Urban Disaster."

by John T. Alexander
by John T. Alexander

[Katy]

I loved the breakup letters from Catherine to Stanislaus. It is interesting to note how Stanislaus thought himself still so important to Catherine and couldn't imagine that she was fine without him.

The "guarantee a free and tranquil election," (page 371) unfortunately has happened in many countries. Might makes right too many times. I think most countries can claim expansion by might more than once.

[Katy]

Was just thinking .. what a way to "break up" permanently. Turn your old boyfriend into a King -- but not your king.

[Bryan]

Kathy wrote: "Was just thinking .. what a way to "break up" permanently. Turn your old boyfriend into a King -- but not your king."

Indeed, Kathy, lol. Nothing like sending someone abroad with a title.

[Katy]

Joanne wrote: "Catherine's stance on small pox inoculation is most impressive. She clearly faced her own fears and proved herself a leader willing to take personal risks. It is interesting to compare her actions ..."

I agree with you here Joanne. Sometimes being forward thinking involves facing and conquering one's own fears. I think that Catherine's fear of small pox discussed more in this chapter gives us a bit more insight on how disfiguring Peter's scars must have been.

[Katy]

Lewis wrote: "Page 378 (chapter 54) summarizes some of Russia's military exploits. Interesting how, in that day and age, might seemed to translate into right. If a nation was big and powerful, they tended to inv..."

I wonder though besides just might that Catherine was trying to prove to Europe that Russia was a big power now and to be dealt with. I think she no longer wanted to be thought of as the "backwoods cousin."

[Bryan]

Lewis wrote: "Page 378 (chapter 54) summarizes some of Russia's military exploits. Interesting how, in that day and age, might seemed to translate into right. If a nation was big and powerful, they tended to inv..."

Lewis and Kathy bring up interesting points. I do think Catherine might have thought that the military would be a good way to project power. Using the military, I get a sense that "might makes right" is the philosophy used most of the time in human history.

[Katy]

I'm not sure what my reactions are with the revolt. Certainly a faulty leader with the "False Peter III." But the unrest of the peasants and serfs continually ignored I can see why Russia had such violent revolutions. I did not realize that this one was the bloodiest though. Perhaps it is because this revolution was squashed whereas those in the 1900s produced some big changes in the country.

[Alisa]

Kathy wrote: "I'm not sure what my reactions are with the revolt. Certainly a faulty leader with the "False Peter III." But the unrest of the peasants and serfs continually ignored I can see why Russia had such ..."

A revolt which meets with the resistance of the force of the military would make it bloody indeed. I also wonder how much Pugachev's own tendency for violence played a part. I was surprised by the extent of his following.

[Alisa]

Bryan wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Page 378 (chapter 54) summarizes some of Russia's military exploits. Interesting how, in that day and age, might seemed to translate into right. If a nation was big and powerful, they..."

She was interesting in how she deployed her power plays. At some point I suppose all rulers are eager to establish their position and this is certainly one way to do it.

[Alisa]

Kathy wrote: "Was just thinking .. what a way to "break up" permanently. Turn your old boyfriend into a King -- but not your king."

Ha! That's funny. Yeah, pretty handy tactic.

[Barbara]

I enjoyed the quote from Catherine's note to Stanislaus on page 368, "Goodbye, the world is full of strange situations." For me that sums up a great deal of Catherine's behavior with the men in her life.

I do appreciate reading of some of the useful things Catherine brought to her reign. It is highly significant that she founded Russia's first college of Medicine to train Russian doctors, surgeons and apothecaries. I was impressed by her desire to discourage infanticide, using her own funds to establish a foundling hospital. I read with interest the details about the baskets, bells and pulley system for abandoned babies. That she had decreed that each province must have a hospital was certainly admirable. Her research and constant reading seemed to help with her understanding of smallpox and she was brave to choose to have the smallpox inoculation.

I was also impressed by Orlov stepping up and going to Moscow to restore order when the plague was at its worst. I liked Massie's description of Orlov on page 390. "He was forceful and effective but also humane....He promised freedom to serfs who volunteered to work in hospitals, he opened orphanages, he distributed food and money." There was much to be admired about Orlov's actions during this tragic time.

The revolt led by illiterate Pugachev was astounding. That he was able to understand how to organize a revolt that was as long lasting and significant as this revolt is amazing. His promises of "no longer having to work for a lord and you will no longer pay taxes," must have been a forceful enticement for all the many that joined him.
It was significant to read that one of the enticements was to be able to wear "Russian clothes" and also promises of forbidding of cutting the beard and return of Cossack haircuts.

[Bryan]

Thanks, Barbara. I'm impresses by how vast and diverse Russia was. It must have been hard to rule and fairly easy for a Pugachev to rise up.

[Barbara]

Yes, I forget how vast Russia is and that is a tremendous factor. I was just in S. Korea and when I think of all the mountains and valleys I saw there, in that relatively small country, it reminds me how easy it could have been for a large rebel army to hide in Russia at that time. Since he was illiterate he left no paper trail! No planes to do surveillance. Would not work as easily today.

[Alisa]

Barbara wrote: "I enjoyed the quote from Catherine's note to Stanislaus on page 368, "Goodbye, the world is full of strange situations." For me that sums up a great deal of Catherine's behavior with the men in her..."

There was something oddly comforting in the way Orlov went about his business during the plague. For this image that seemed to be portrayed of him as a tough soldier I thought he showed an unexpected compassion. I wasn't sure if that was him showing his true colors or his devotion to Catherine or personal sensitivity. He seemed to know what to do and went about his business efficiently and carefully.

I'm still not sure if Pugachev was shrewd or just lucky in attracting a similar kind of unrealistic fanatic to his army. It all seemed very chaotic and desperate to me. He certainly attracted a lot of followers though.

[Alisa]

Bryan wrote: "Thanks, Barbara. I'm impresses by how vast and diverse Russia was. It must have been hard to rule and fairly easy for a Pugachev to rise up."

Easier to hide or for little factions to go undetected because the population was so spread out. It sounded like the Cossacks played by their own rules in their own communities. As long as everyone played along I suppose they could go undetected as long as they wanted. Shows you what can happen with such a far flung population.

[Alisa]

Barbara wrote: "Yes, I forget how vast Russia is and that is a tremendous factor. I was just in S. Korea and when I think of all the mountains and valleys I saw there, in that relatively small country, it reminds ..."

So true! It's too easy to be detected in this day and age.

[Susan]

Kathy wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Catherine's stance on small pox inoculation is most impressive. She clearly faced her own fears and proved herself a leader willing to take personal risks. It is interesting to compa..."

I agree. She was being especially brave given all she had to lose if it went badly

[Susan]

Barbara wrote: "Yes, I forget how vast Russia is and that is a tremendous factor. I was just in S. Korea and when I think of all the mountains and valleys I saw there, in that relatively small country, it reminds ..."

His con wouldn't have worked today either, not unless he really did happen to look like a lost (as opposed to known-to-be-dead) ruler & and the leader was unable to show the usurper's true origin

[Susan]

Barbara wrote: "I enjoyed the quote from Catherine's note to Stanislaus on page 368, "Goodbye, the world is full of strange situations." For me that sums up a great deal of Catherine's behavior with the men in her..."

Yes, Catherine did seem to genuinely tire of her relationships after awhile

[Bryan]

As a ruler, she could breakup with anyone at anytime. I'm not sure the lovers scorn could be avengened.

[Janis]

Catherine was a ruler with many contradictions. She was a student of Voltaire and Diderot yet tired of Diderot. She was enlightened herself yet enjoyed being a despot. Her small group of friends did not have to stand on ceremony when in her salon yet her public ceremonies were full of pomp. She managed to believe that her young lovers were in love with her not her position and the rewards that came for being a good lover. Despite her humanistic leanings and beliefs -- the Romanovs that followed her reign were brutal and despotic. She was a mystery in so many ways.

[Alisa]

Janis wrote: "Catherine was a ruler with many contradictions. She was a student of Voltaire and Diderot yet tired of Diderot. She was enlightened herself yet enjoyed being a despot. Her small group of friends..."

She certainly was a complex and at times conflicted woman.