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[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "I have decided that I will read something like these in August and then one in October/November to coincide with the early Western Front campaign prior to trench warfare setting in. Nominations fo..."

Here's a suggestion for the pre-trench warfare days on the Western Front:

The Affair at Nery by Patrick Takle.

It's about the valiant fight by the RHA at Nery. Three VCs were awarded for the clash.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

If you let me know how many are interested in a general WW1 theme read for August then we can consider setting up a thread for that event.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Tionne wrote: "I'm down. When is good for everyone? I've got one book that I MUST read, but I can bump Hero up on the list. I've been meaning to read it for ages."

Hi Tionne I'm thinking if people want to join in a theme read in August to link to the start of the First World War and take on any book they like. Our WWII theme reads seem successful in that people chat about a range of books that it might work well as an off-shoot of the group.

Rick many thanks for the offer and the recommendation - hope you'll join in too :)

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "If you let me know how many are interested in a general WW1 theme read for August then we can consider setting up a thread for that event."

Count me in.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I dare say I will join in Geevee, you know I can't resist a good theme read :)

I'll most likey go with one of these books:

by Allan Mallinson

by Paul Ham

[Miss M]

Well, I am jealous of those in the UK--looks like you have some terrific programming coming up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/medi...

I'd like to join in too, Geevee. I already have the Max Hastings book TBR, and think I'll be picking up the MacMillan book soon - I really liked her book on Paris, 1919.

I also recently got this diary:

Harry’s War

And there's a new bio of the Archduke and his wife...

[Miss M]

Manray9,
I finished the Gates memoir last night and thought it was quite good. Certainly the most direct, open and down to earth I've ever read by a former administration official.
And I can see how Tom Ricks would appreciate it--certainly in line with his theory on relieving commanders--though I was surprised to see Gates say that he didn't know until after he'd fired Gen. McKiernan that it was the first occurrence since the Korean war. Gates also made the point again in his final wrapping up that he'd like to see 'not for cause' relief from.duty used more frequently too, without the adverse, career-ending effects, but because the individual just does not suit the mission. [Sorry, that's my awkward paraphrasing, but very similar to the points Ricks made in his book.]

[Manray9]

I assume you mean relieved in wartime? Jimmy Carter fired General John Singlaub in Korea in the Seventies.

[Miss M]

Manray9 wrote: "I assume you mean relieved in wartime? Jimmy Carter fired General John Singlaub in Korea in the Seventies."

Yes, sorry, just went back and he did make the distinction.

"I would learn only later that this was the first time a wartime commander had been relieved since Truman fired Douglas MacArthur in 1951."

[Manray9]

Miss M wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "I assume you mean relieved in wartime? Jimmy Carter fired General John Singlaub in Korea in the Seventies."

Yes, sorry, just went back and he did make the distinction.

"I would l..."

LBJ should have relieved them by the dozen. Westmoreland was kicked upstairs in '68.

[Miss M]

He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot of things he described/problems (as he saw them) seemed not to have changed much, going back to the Vietnam era.

[Manray9]

Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot of things he described/problems (as he saw them) seemed not to ..."

Our military services are handicapped by bureaucratic inertia and hidebound thinking. We forgot about counter-insurgency after Vietnam. There was no glory in it. It wasn't a ladder up the hierarchy to wearing stars. This is especially true in the navy. We have hitched our wagons to large nuke carriers, nuke subs, naval aviation and forgotten about mine warfare, small ship ops, and many other endeavors which may prove useful in the new world environment. Our navy is still preparing to fight World War II or the Cold War, only with new high tech weaponry. No one in the navy will change this because their careers are tied to the status quo. That's why we have a president and defense secretary who are civilians. They are supposed to lead the services, but I think too often they themselves are led.

[Tionne]

Geevee, sounds great. I've also got The Guns of August to finish. Got a little while, eh? :-)

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

As we're on a WWI theme here at the moment I though people might be interested in this short but good article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25...

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot of things he described/problems (as he saw them)..."

Interesting post Manray9 and as you'll know the Royal Navy provided capacity and capability in areas such as ASW (and RAF here), mine counter measures and anti-piracy/drugs alongside other more traditional frigates etc for the two navies to work well together and complement each other on operations - regrettably our defence cuts over the last 30 years have drastically reduced ship numbers and closed down or limited some capabilities; although new aircraft carriers and ships are being built or planned.

I remain of the view that with so much trade and economic sustainability via the sea - and after all Britain is an island - this continued reduction serves neither country nor their trading and military partners well.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Miss M wrote: "Well, I am jealous of those in the UK--looks like you have some terrific programming coming up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/medi...

I'd like to join in too, Geevee. I alread..."

Might they be available via BBC World or PBS Miss M?

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Great, so we have a few of us so far for the Break-out WWI theme read: Gerald, Miss M, Manray9, Tionne, Aussie Rick and Geevee.

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "As we're on a WWI theme here at the moment I though people might be interested in this short but good article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25..."

Good link, Geevee. I could argue with some of the points, but others are undeniably true. #4 about the upper class service is supported by this book which I've mentioned before:

The Aristocracy and the Great War by Gerald Gliddon.

Lady Diana Manners (later Diana Cooper), daughter of the Duke of Rutland, said that by 1916 every boy she had danced with was dead.

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot of things he described/problems ..."

Some may think me just cynical, but I've have served on the operational end, on staff, and managed an EW R&D program. I have seen the good and bad sides of our navy. I was aboard a destroyer in the Persian Gulf in 1983, when we steamed around at three knots searching for Iraqi mines by visual means -- Yes, the Mark I eyeball! Why? Because the U.S. Navy had virtually no deployable mine warfare capability -- we had farmed it out to NATO. There was no glory in it and, hence, no path to an admiral's flag.

By the way, when I returned to the Persian Gulf in 1988, I served briefly aboard HMS BEAVER (F93), a Type 22 frigate of the Royal Navy.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "As we're on a WWI theme here at the moment I though people might be interested in this short but good article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25..."

Good link, Geevee. I cou..."

That's on my TBR via your recommendation Manray9 thanks. Thought provoking point on Lady Manners' dance partners as she would have danced with many lads socially as a debutante and through house parties etc.

Btw did we mention Gliddon's books on WWI VCs? If not here's a couple of the volumes for interest: VC's of the First World War: 1914 and VC's of the First World War: Arras & Messines, 1917 by Gerald Gliddon

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "As we're on a WWI theme here at the moment I though people might be interested in this short but good article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25..."

Good link..."

Yes, I've read Gliddon's VC's Handbook.

[A.L.]

Geevee wrote: "Great, so we have a few of us so far for the Break-out WWI theme read: Gerald, Miss M, Manray9, Tionne, Aussie Rick and Geevee."

I'd be interested in a WWI theme read.

Actually, just this last weekend I decided I needed to do some research on WWI, and I'm thrilled to have a few goodreads friends in on it.

[Manray9]

A.L. wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Great, so we have a few of us so far for the Break-out WWI theme read: Gerald, Miss M, Manray9, Tionne, Aussie Rick and Geevee."

I'd be interested in a WWI theme read.

Actually, j..."

I think AR intends it for August, the centennial month.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot of things he desc..."

I had to look HMS Beaver up as it was a name I didn't know as there were some 22s in the Falklands. I believe the Type 22s built after used some lessons learnt from losses in the Falklands (e.g. Type 21s and 42s) which I understand was shared with the US which you might know if I'm right/wrong from your R&D days??

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten and lost--a lot o..."

HMS BEAVER was equipped with a sophisticated EW package developed by the USN. That was my duty aboard. We loved our rotation aboard Brit ships in the Gulf -- they had beer!!!

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

A.L. wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Great, so we have a few of us so far for the Break-out WWI theme read: Gerald, Miss M, Manray9, Tionne, Aussie Rick and Geevee."

I'd be interested in a WWI theme read.

Actually, j..."

Hi A.L. we thought August might be a good month to mark/commemorate the outbreak of WWI and so please do join in.

People who've expressed an interest in joining now are: Gerald, Miss M, Manray9, Tionne, Aussie Rick, A.L., and Geevee.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Miss M wrote: "He also commented multiple times on how much of the Services' COIN experience/expertise seemed to have been forgotten an..."


And Navy rum too I hope - I recall having Navy issue rum when with some RN guys who'd come to us on a skills sharing exercise and it was like some fuel they'd stick in a ship's engine...evil stuff!

[Manray9]

The official RN rum ration ended in 1970 (the infamous Black Tot Day), but there is still Navy Rum -- although I don't believe they drink it on Her Majesty anymore. They have to pay for it. I believe Lamb's Rum is considered the closest to the old RN issued rum.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Interesting thanks - they brought this stuff with them in a plastic 5L container (classy eh?) and having it once was enough for me whoever made/distilled it :)

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Interesting thanks - they brought this stuff with them in a plastic 5L container (classy eh?) and having it once was enough for me whoever made/distilled it :)"

I like rum. I've had Pussers Rum and Lamb's, both of which claim RN heritage.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Our discussion led me back to books as I did a quick search on minesweepers related to WWII and wondered if you'd seen these:

Allied Minesweeping In World War 2 by Peter Elliott

Out Sweeps! by Paul Lund

Service Most Silent: The Navy's Fight Against Enemy Mines by John Frayn Turner

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Our discussion led me back to books as I did a quick search on minesweepers related to WWII and wondered if you'd seen these:

[book:Allied M..."

Some good selections on a subject about which I know little.

[Miss M]

Has anyone heard of this WWI-based comic (I think from the 80's)? Just saw it mentioned in another group...


Charley's War: 2 June - 1 August 1916: Vol. 1

*********************************************

Geevee, I am hopeful some of that BBC programming will eventually find its way over here. Most likely, as you say, via PBS.

[happy]

I'm in on the WW I read :)

[Manray9]

Miss M wrote: "Has anyone heard of this WWI-based comic (I think from the 80's)? Just saw it mentioned in another group...


[book:Charley's War: 2 ..."

Never heard of it, but I'm not big on comics.

[Miss M]

Geevee wrote: "Interesting post Manray9 and as you'll know the Royal Navy provided capacity and capability in areas such as ASW (and RAF here), mine counter measures and anti-piracy/drugs alongside other more traditional frigates etc for the two navies to work well together and complement each other on operations ..."

Geevee, after seeing your comments on cooperation the other day, thought this, from today's NY Times, was fascinating. Also, the USN has moved a couple of ships into the Black Sea to support Russia if necessary/requested. Remains to be seen how it works out, but sometimes we do move forward...inch by inch...

"The United States and Russia have opened discussions about using sophisticated American electronic equipment, developed by the Pentagon to counter improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan and Iraq, in a new effort to help secure the Winter Olympic Games in Sochi next month.
The potential for a technological exchange was part of an extensive discussion here Tuesday when Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, held his first face-to-face meeting with his Russian counterpart, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, chief of the general staff.
The Defense Department would be willing to provide equipment designed to detect and disrupt cellphone or radio signals used by militants to detonate improvised explosives from a distance, General Dempsey said. But he cautioned that technical experts from both nations first needed to make sure that the American systems could be integrated into the communications networks and security systems being set in place by Russia."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/wor...

[Lilo]

Miss M wrote: "Has anyone heard of this WWI-based comic (I think from the 80's)? Just saw it mentioned in another group...


[book:Charley's War: 2 ..."

I have never heard of "Charley's War" but will check it out.

Has anyone heard of "The Good Soldier Schwejk", a satire about WWI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...

I haven't read the book but I have seen both movie versions. The one with Fritz Muliar is hilarious. I would highly recommend it if it is still possible to find one at some library. You can forget about the version with Heinz Ruehmann. It doesn't compare.

I assume that the book would be a very enjoyable read.

I haven't read the book

[Miss M]

Oh, thank you for reminding me of 'Schwejk', Lilo.
I even downloaded it when I first got my kindle, but still haven't read it. Should fit in perfectly with the reading.

[Mensch...Heinz Ruehmann...der war mal Favorit von meiner Oma. ;D]

[Manray9]

Lilo wrote: "Miss M wrote: "Has anyone heard of this WWI-based comic (I think from the 80's)? Just saw it mentioned in another group...


Ch..."</i>


The Good Soldier Schweik is a classic of Czech literature. There is a Russian (Soviet) novel of a similar bent:

[bookcover:The Life and Extraordinary Adventures of Private Ivan Chonkin The Life and Extraordinary Adventures of the Soldier Ivan Chonkin by Vladimir Voinovich

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Miss M wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Interesting post Manray9 and as you'll know the Royal Navy provided capacity and capability in areas such as ASW (and RAF here), mine counter measures and anti-piracy/drugs alongside..."

Thanks Miss M that is really interesting and also helpful as it would be terrible for all if there are any incidents at the Winter Olympics. I do like it when nations cooperate it is so much a better story than posturing and fighting.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Hi Miss M and folks Charley's War is a comic strip from the 1970s/80s and was in Battle - a comic I used to read as a kid, along with The Victor, Warlord, Roy of the Rovers [also drawn by the artist who drew Charley's War], Tiger and the Beano!.

NB: Pat Mills the writer of Charley's War had a hand in 2000AD and Judge Dredd :)

For more info see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley&...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Mills
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Colq...

[Gerald]

For those who are interested in the August theme read, the New York Review of Books published the following reviews of books on the beginning of World War I.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

An interesting article, thanks for the link Gerald although I think Manray9 beat you to it in message 392 :)

[Gerald]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "An interesting article, thanks for the link Gerald although I think Manray9 beat you to it in message 392 :)"

Gulp! Sorry!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

It doesn't hurt, it's a good link and other members may have missed the first post :)

[Tionne]

I did! Thanks to everyone!

[Lilo]

Miss M wrote: "Oh, thank you for reminding me of 'Schwejk', Lilo.
I even downloaded it when I first got my kindle, but still haven't read it. Should fit in perfectly with the reading.

[Mensch...Heinz Ruehmann....."

I also liked Heinz Ruehmann but not in the role of "Schwejk". I no longer like Heinz Ruehmann. His widow wrote in a magazine that he wanted her (who was, if I remember correctly, 18 years younger than he) to commit suicide when he was about to die of old age. I also don't like how he, while not a Nazi, somehow played along with the Nazis because this was good for his career. -- See "Dead Funny", by Rudolf Herzog. But read the German original of this book, since you obviously can read German. It has a different title. This book is a worthwhile read. It tells the history of the Third Reich in the mirror of the humor of this time. It also mentions Fritz Muliar, who got into severe trouble with the Nazis and was close to getting executed. He had already written his Last Will.

[Lilo]

Manray9 wrote: "Lilo wrote: "Miss M wrote: "Has anyone heard of this WWI-based comic (I think from the 80's)? Just saw it mentioned in another group...

[bookcover:Charley's War: 2 June - 1 August 1916: Vol. 1|663..."

From what I read, the movie (with Fritz Muliar) might be better than the book. The author died before he could finish the book. Thus, the book has no proper ending and, unfortunately, was published without editing.

[Lilo]

Geevee wrote: "Hi Miss M and folks Charley's War is a comic strip from the 1970s/80s and was in Battle - a comic I used to read as a kid, along with The Victor, Warlord, Roy of the Rovers [also drawn by the artis..."

Thank you, Geevee. I'll see if our library has it.

[Miss M]

Lilo wrote: "Miss M wrote: "Oh, thank you for reminding me of 'Schwejk', Lilo.
I even downloaded it when I first got my kindle, but still haven't read it. Should fit in perfectly with the reading.

[Mensch...H..."

Thank you, Lilo,
I did find [book:Heil Hitler, das Schwein ist tot!|17795360]

Will check it out.
[BTW, if you ever do order paper books from.Germany, I've discovered it's more economical to find the ISBN on Amazon.de (if it's in print), and then order from bookdepository.com with their free shipping (even calendars...they're actually an amazon subsidiary now, primarily for UK books, but most often works 'auf Deutsch' as well.)]