The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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A Study in Scarlet
Arthur Conan Doyle Collection
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A Study in Scarlet 2012 - Part Two
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I wonder how that idea came aboutIt was following the publication of Patmore's poem about his wife in 1852, 'The Angel in the House', that the ideas expressed in it became immensely popular and were promoted by the church. Child and childbirth mortality was then so high that the mother became an idealised figure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ange...
MadgeUK wrote: "I wonder how that idea came aboutIt was following the publication of Patmore's poem about his wife in 1852, 'The Angel in the House', that the ideas expressed in it became immensely popular and p..."
Thanks for the info. Did not know that. That's why I like this forum - I learn something new almost everyday.
I believe that the depiction of mormonism in this text was actually not all that bad. sure, it's not how mormons would want to be portrayed in the book, or necessarily similar to their practices, but how I thought about it when reading it was that the group Doyle described was a extreme example or perhaps even an exaggeration. I didn't base what I think of Mormons based on what he described. I read it as a story, and I didn't even necessarily take it as Doyle's take on Mormonism.
William wrote: "I believe that the depiction of mormonism in this text was actually not all that bad. sure, it's not how mormons would want to be portrayed in the book, or necessarily similar to their practices, b..."I pretty much felt the same way. I figured Doyle used an interesting and dramatic event as background for a good story, which is how many writers get their inspiration.
William wrote: "I believe that the depiction of mormonism in this text was actually not all that bad. sure, it's not how mormons would want to be portrayed in the book, or necessarily similar to their practices, b..."Hi William - once I got into the story, I completely forgot about the Mormon connection. But at the same time, I think that it is good to be aware of negative depictions of any group - intentional or unintentional.
I too loved the idea that the novel presented a story within a story as it were. Part one and part two. I almost felt I was reading two separate novels until at one point the names of the two murdered men were sitting in the living room vying for Lucy's hand in marriage. I was astonished and completely caught unaware. I also was taken aback when conan stated describing the Morman way of life, as he wrote. The single most disturbing idea that he expressed, was and, Im only para phrasing; sometimes he the father would see strange women who mysteriously appeared in the town secretly married to men who looked scared; with talk that they might have been from another nearby town that had mysteriously been attacked by indians or such. Does anyone remember this passage??
What a great read!
Julie - I missed that passage - I'll have to go back and reread that section. Thanks for pointing it out.
it was very short and brief, may 3 or 4 sentences. I will also go back and see if i can find it.
Yes, it is in relation to polygamy and the shortage of women, which actually occurred, that Doyle uses negative imagery about the Mormons. Ferrier was pursued Mormons because he had transgressed their rules by taking his daughter, Lucy, away from the community, which apparently used to happen. When Brigham Young sought Ferrier's daughter out for marriage to one of the Mormons (Chap 3 Pt II), Doyle wrote of Ferrier: 'Such a marriage he regarded as no marriage at all but as a shame and a disgrace...upon that one point he was inflexible. He had to seal his mouth on the subject, however, for to express an unorthodox opinion was a dangerous matter in those days in the Land of the Saints.....Not the Inquisition of Seville, nor the German Vehm-gericht, nor the Secret Societies of Italy were ever able to put a more formidable machinery in motion than that which cast a cloud over the State of Utah...The man who held out against the Church vanished away, and none knew whither he had gone or what had befallen him...'However, Doyle conflates stories about the Mormon Danite gangs, about which there is a lot of dispute, and the Molly Maguire story, which was essentially about catholics (see my Background stuff post 3 Part I) and in this sense he is perhaps unfair to the Mormons.
http://thecommune.co.uk/2009/07/23/th...
http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/d/DANIT...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite
(Nice to see you posting again William.)
Not the Inquisition of Seville, nor the German Vehm-gericht, nor the Secret Societies of Italy...Victorians on both sides of the Atlantic were obsessed by Secret Societies (which were linked to anarchism and Marxism) and they are mentioned a lot in the SH canon. This article gives a little historical background about such societies in the US:-
http://museumcenterat5ivepoints.wordp...
Conan Doyle himself was a prominent Freemason. There is something about that and the secret society symbolism in SH in this piece:-
http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandt...
The Victorians were just as concerned about 'terrorism' as we are and there were a number of attacks by disaffected groups in Conan Doyle's day. Part I of this article is about the Irish Fenians, who were linked to the Molly Maguire attacks and Part II is about other groups:-
http://nlg-steampunk.blogspot.co.uk/2...
MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, it is in relation to polygamy and the shortage of women, which actually occurred, that Doyle uses negative imagery about the Mormons. Ferrier was pursued Mormons because he had transgressed th..."I've been trying to find time to read Molly Maguire story, but haven't had time. But yes, Doyle did use some of those same ideas for The Valley of Fear.
And re: polygamy, people forget that very famous men in the Old Testament had multiple wives as well: Abraham, David, Solomon, etc.
Augustine claims it was solely for the purpose of having more children.
MadgeUK wrote: "Not the Inquisition of Seville, nor the German Vehm-gericht, nor the Secret Societies of Italy...Victorians on both sides of the Atlantic were obsessed by Secret Societies (which were linked to a..."
Can't wait to get to this next week! :-)
Augustine claims it was solely for the purpose of having more children.At times when mortality rates were high and deaths in battle were high too, this may have been true. Polygamy was certainly encouraged amongst the Arabs of Mohammed's time because there were so many widows.
MadgeUK wrote: "Augustine claims it was solely for the purpose of having more children.At times when mortality rates were high and deaths in battle were high too, this may have been true. Polygamy was certainly..."
Yes, true.
And the reasons regarding widowhood were true for other cultures as well. Since women couldn't work, if their husband died (and didn't have a father or brother who would take them in), they would be homeless and might be forced into prostitution.
Lynnm wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Augustine claims it was solely for the purpose of having more children.At times when mortality rates were high and deaths in battle were high too, this may have been true. Polyga..."
I'm reading a biography of Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the Mormon church, and it has a lot of interesting information about polygamy.
The polygamy the early Mormons practiced is partially based on the Old Testament practice of polygamy as LynnM pointed out. It is also based on the Mormons' elaborate belief system about the afterlife.
The Mormon wives were known as "The Mothers of Israel." They were supposed to bear many children so the Latter-Day Saints would become as numerous as the "stars in the sky."
Smith had between 36 and 50 wives. They ranged in age from late 50s to teenage girls. Smith never used violence to persuade some of the reluctant women. Instead, He used his position as "prophet, revelator and seer."
The early Mormons also practiced a form of polyandry. Female converts who were still married to non-Mormon husbands were re-married to Mormon men.
It is fascinating that they describe the Great American Desert, and use words such as harsh, empty, barren. In fact, the West is teaming with life, even in the desert areas of New Mexico and Utah. It is important to understand the perspective these early explorers had. You must also realize you have a unique perspective and people from their time would find you 'politically correct' viewpoints nonsensical.
True Christopher and another thing to remember is that Victorian folks were generally not well travelled and had probably not seen many pictures of other parts of the world, so all new landscapes were strange to them. Apart from the Russian Steppes there are no deserts in Europe of the size and dryness of those in Utah. I think desert areas also have an effect on the psyche of the European used to lush green landscapes. I remember the drought here of 1975/6 when I took a coach tour north and found the bleak barrenness of our landscape extremely depressing. I felt the same when I toured the Sierra Nevada in Spain and the cork growing area of Alentejo in Portugal. For me, as for Conan Doyle, the synonyms for the word desert hold true: 'barren, arid, infertile, lonely, solitary, sterile, waste' but I realise that those living there may not feel the same way.
The early Mormons also practiced a form of polyandry. Female converts who were still married to non-Mormon husbands were re-married to Mormon men.I quite fancied the idea of polyandry when I was young - one husband to stay in with and one to go out with, as it was rare to find one man who was fun for both:D.
It is likely that polyandry will become fairly common in China, as it is in Tibet, because their one-child policy has resulted in a huge surplus of men.
Accounts by women in polygamous marriages stress the 'sharing' side of their lives when it comes to looking after children, household chores etc and I suppose if you are brought up not to be jealous of other women sleeping with your partner, even to welcome it, then it can have its advantages.
MadgeUK wrote: "I quite fancied the idea of polyandry when I was young - one husband to stay in with and one to go out with, as it was rare to find one man who was fun for both:D..."At first glance, it certainly seems like an advantageous circumstance... but, on second thought, the idea of having to cope with relationship issues with TWO men is just out of the question :)
I thought that one of them should be a sailor and so away most of the time:)
Christopher wrote: "It is fascinating that they describe the Great American Desert, and use words such as harsh, empty, barren. In fact, the West is teaming with life, even in the desert areas of New Mexico and Utah. ..."I just have to get there - the closest that I've gotten to any of the deserts in the West is driving from LA to Palm Springs and flying over the desert to get to California. :-)
I posted before that I've read a number of Edward Abbey books about the American West. He makes it sound harsh but beautiful. And something that needs to be protected.
It's a shame that so much as been developed, and that they had to destroy some of the wild areas in order to accomodate that development.
MadgeUK wrote: "I quite fancied the idea of polyandry when I was young - one husband to stay in with and one to go out with, as it was rare to find one man who was fun for both:D."
:-)
That's actually a good plan. Think the guys would agree? ;)
MadgeUK wrote: "Accounts by women in polygamous marriages stress the 'sharing' side of their lives when it comes to looking after children, household chores etc and I suppose if you are brought up not to be jealous of other women sleeping with your partner, even to welcome it, then it can have its advantages. "Actually, the more I think about it, it might not be a bad system. It takes a village, and here you would have the village in one house. :-)
Lynnm wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Accounts by women in polygamous marriages stress the 'sharing' side of their lives when it comes to looking after children, household chores etc and I suppose if you are brought up ..."BunWat wrote: "Madge quoted it in mssg 108
'the supply of adult women was running short, and polygamy without a female population on which to draw was a barren doctrine indeed. Strange rumours began to be bandi..."
Yes, This was the passage! I was astonished that this part of the story, that Conan would portray the mormon life as led by fear and Murder.
This was probably the perception of British Victorians Julie as they would have seen reports of the 'Mormon War' of 1838 in their press.'During their period of organization in Missouri, the Danites operated as a vigilante group and took a central role in the events of the 1838 Mormon War. Whether or not the Danites existed in the years after the 1847 arrival of the LDS in Utah is still debated. However, they remained an important part of Mormon and non-Mormon folklore, polemics, and propaganda for the remainder of the 19th century, waning in ideological prominence after Utah gained statehood..... After the 1838 war, the term "Danite" was often connected with any Latter Day Saint militarism, including the Nauvoo, Illinois police, the bodyguards of Joseph Smith, Jr., the "whistling and whittling brigades", and Brigham Young's so-called "Destroying Angels" or "Avenging Angels."' (from Wikipedia).
http://1857massacre.com/MMM/danites_i...
As to the truth of it all, it seems to be a question of there being no smoke without fire and it made an excellent story for a writer.
Nauvoo and the LDS flight from Missouri was also mentioned in that section of VoF:-
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Nauvoo#Earl...
The Mormon Temple at Nauvoo, first built in 1840, is very imposing:-
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/nauvoo/
Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "It is fascinating that they describe the Great American Desert, and use words such as harsh, empty, barren. In fact, the West is teaming with life, even in the desert areas of N..."I have not posted anything so far related to this read, but at least wanted to comment on my personal experience of the Great American Desert. 2 years ago I made a tour from Denver to the Yellowstone Park and over to South Dakota and Nebraska. I crossed the so-called Oregon Trail several times, which started more or less in St. Louis, Missouri, from where you still had a good connection to the east coast and which was the trail that most people used for the first months until they split to California, Oregon, Utah, etc.
Driving through Wyoming in this vast landscape of nothing but grass and here and there some rising hills, was on the one hand absolute fascinating, but on the other hand also incredibly intimidating. On one late afternoon, a storm came up and the sky just turned almost black. It was already a little intimidating to be alone in a car with hardly any other cars nearby. To do this tour for months on foot, with maybe a couple of horses or an oxcart with old people and children, is really a sign of courage, but also of desperation. Ten thousands of people, who started this trail never reached their destination. After I came back from my trip I read the book The Oregon Trail by Francis Parkman, who travelled part of the trail as a tourist/ journalist. He describes all he saw and experienced in a lot of different ways. He also stayed with the Native Americans, mainly Sioux, in those areas.
Thanks for telling us about that experience Hedi. I can imagine the sense of intimidation you felt, which the vastness alone could give, especially to an islander like me (and Conan Doyle). I think all immigrants are brave - leaving your homeland for good, especially in those days, must have been an act of desperation, as you say, and also shows extreme optimism, or perhaps a faith in a benevolent god...
Hedi wrote: "I have not posted anything so far related to this read, but at least wanted to comment on my personal experience of the Great American Desert. 2 years ago I made a tour from Denver to the Yellowstone Park and over to South Dakota and Nebraska. I crossed the so-called Oregon Trail several times, which started more or less in St. Louis, Missouri, from where you still had a good connection to the east coast and which was the trail that most people used for the first months until they split to California, Oregon, Utah, etc."Thanks for sharing that with us.
It is hard for us to imagine today - with all of our comforts - how difficult it was for the first (and second) series of settlers to cross the nation. Unbelievable hardships, and so many died doing it.
You got to see first hand for a brief time what it might be like.
As Madge said, same for immigrants. And a lot of the people who went west were immigrants.
And speaking of immigrants, I may have posted this before, but one of my favorite essays is "Go North, Young Man" by Richard Rodriquez.
He talks about how hard it is to immigrate. As Madge wrote, it is brave, but it is also an act of desperation and optimism, both at the same time. Rodriquez talks about how it is a "rude" act - almost like telling your home land that they aren't good enough.
But what I really loved was of his last lines. Of course, I can't find the essay now to get the exact quote, but he calls immigrants globalization's first prophets.
When I thought about that line, the first thing that came to mind is that when business people go to other lands looking for work and profits, they are hailed. But when poor immigrants go to other lands looking for work and income, they are villified. Particularly when they are the first of their group.
Yes, those who bring money to start businesses into a country are extravagantly welcomed whereas those who come to work in those businesses are denigrated! I am not so sure that immigrants are 'rude' because the majority of them have been rejected by their homeland for economic or religious reasons. Ex-pat communities are often rude though and they are the ones who grumble about their home countries. In Spain and Portugal they commonly whinge about 'socialist' Labour governmnents in the UK whilst happily living under progressive socialist governments there!!
Lynnm wrote: "Thanks for sharing that with us.It is hard for us to imagine today - with all of our comforts - how difficult it was for the first (and second) series of settlers to cross the nation. Unbelievable hardships, and so many died doing it.
..."
I think the hardships at that time made the environment look different than it might seem to us today, as you said, Lynn. So describing the plains with more negative words was more out of the angle of the people who faced the hardships of it. When I was there, I could easily imagine how hard that trip over thousands of miles must have been. Most people started the trails in spring in order to (hopefully) get over the Rockies before the winter came, i.e. 6 months of trying to survive without decent shelter, food, with possible robberies, sickness, death and many, many miles to go.
Parkman, on the other hand, is quite fascinated by the region, but his zeal when going there was a different one. He was not persecuted, poor, homeless like so many of the pioneers who were leaving their hardships in the east behind, just in order to encounter new ones in the west.
I think many of these "wild stories" must have gotten to the east coast and also further over the Atlantic Ocean. So Doyle is probably just reflecting these stories. Even nowadays that area is not the most touristic one in the world, not even in the US.
And he probably had a fast car! These days , wherever you are that you don't like, you can get the h*** outa there quickly by some means of mechanised transport!
Well, actually Parkman was there also in the late 1840s. He had a good horse and gifts to trade with the Sioux ;-)
Oh sorry - thought he was a modern:)
No problem, Madge! :-)
MadgeUK wrote: "I am not so sure that immigrants are 'rude' because the majority of them have been rejected by their homeland for economic or religious reasons."Good point. Immigrants are usually just trying to get opportunities that are unavailable to them in their home land for whatever the reason.
Of course, they are then rejected in their new land as being "foreign" or different.
As you said, it takes continually brave acts to be an immigrant.
Thanks Bunwat - would be good for schoolkids too.
BunWat wrote: "On the subject of immigrants, have people in the group read The Arrival? It is a wondeful wordless book about an immigrant to a strange country. Because its wordless and because the county he tra..."I haven't read it, BunWat, but thanks for the tip. I put it on my "to read" list.
Fictional books that center on the immigrant story are some of my favorite types of books. Just love Latino-American novels on those subjects (Junot Diaz, Cristina Garcia, Julia Alvarez, Sandra Cisernos, etc.).
But also like Ana Yezierska's Bread Givers which was published in the 190s, and is based on the real life story of Yezierska who was Jewish-American.
And just love Pietro di Donato's Christ in Concrete that was published in 1939. It got also sorts of critical acclaim, but it was published in the same year as Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath and so was lost in the shuffle. It is also based on di Donato's real life story. What makes it interesting is that while it is written in English, the rhythm of the language is Italian. Really a fascinating look at not only the Italian-American experience, but also how immigrants were used to build our country, but worked in poor, unsafe conditions for little money, and got very little credit for what they did. Di Donato hated the capitalists of that time, and the books explores the experiences of Italian Americans who built a lot of the first skyscrapers in NYC in very unsafe working conditions while the capitalists got all the money and glory.
Ditto the Irish who worked on Brooklyn Bridge, and who refused to show up for the ceremony when it was open because they said they didn't get any credit for building it.
Hedi wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Thanks for sharing that with us.It is hard for us to imagine today - with all of our comforts - how difficult it was for the first (and second) series of settlers to cross the natio..."
Great point. What we think of as beautiful scenery would look a lot different to people who had to travel without automobiles, and who were always desperately wondering when they were going to get to the next river or water hole.
I haven't read a Study in Scarlet recently, but it's always been one of my favorites. I'll always remember the wonderful experience, at the age of ten, of gratefully settling down for rest period, at overnight summer camp, with my fathers beat-up copy of the complete Sherlock Holmes. Those stories were incredible eye openers for a young kid like me. Even though the history was distorted, just to be served up all that history, told in impeccable english, mixed in with a great mystery yarn, and with unforgettable characters, was a fantastic treat.
Bob wrote: "I haven't read a Study in Scarlet recently, but it's always been one of my favorites. I'll always remember the wonderful experience, at the age of ten, of gratefully settling down for rest period, at overnight summer camp, with my fathers beat-up copy of the complete Sherlock Holmes. Those stories were incredible eye openers for a young kid like me. Even though the history was distorted, just to be served up all that history, told in impeccable english, mixed in with a great mystery yarn, and with unforgettable characters, was a fantastic treat. "The stories are wonderful, aren't they?
I'm enjoying this read so much. It's so nice to read a different genre. While I love the supposedly more "serious" and therefore "better" novels of 19th century British literature, I have to admit that at times I tire of them. There is just so many times you can talk about the oppression of women or the aristocracy vs. the low classes, etc. And even when I still want to talk about those issues, it's nice to do so via a different lens - i.e., a different genre.
To be honest, I can use almost any text to talk about serious issues.
And Sherlock is turning out to be one of my favorite literary characters. I would say that I feel as if I almost know him, but there have been so many characterizations of Sherlock in film/tv that they're all distorting the canon's Sherlock. But the more I read, the clearer Sherlock becomes.
The reason I like 19C literature is for the descriptive passages of countryside, clothing, architecture etc and there is very little of that in CD. Very little rhythm and poetry.
MadgeUK wrote: "The reason I like 19C literature is for the descriptive passages of countryside, clothing, architecture etc and there is very little of that in CD. Very little rhythm and poetry."Yes, Sherlock is more about what is going on in the brain - the ability to reason and deduce.
But I might argue that there are descriptive passages. I think Doyle does a wonderful job at depicting the American West in A Study in Scarlet. We didn't read it, but in The Sign of Four, I love his description of Thaddeus Sholte's dress and living quarters. And when we get to The Hound of the Baskervilles, love his descriptions of the moor and Baskerville Hall.
First, do we see a formula developing?
-Starts off with inf..."
Police shows today do have the same formula.
And you are right about Jane's P& P and romantic comedies! Lol!