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Science Fiction Aficionados discussion
Monthly Read: Random
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July Random Read: The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick
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I really like this book but I want to ask this: Why exactly is this sci-fi?
I mean, it seems like common sense to me that if the Axis had won the war the world would have been completely different. You don’t need scientific theories to do what Dick did here.
(I also liked to talk about the ending, but I’ll save it for another time.)
Sérgio wrote: "I really like this book but I want to ask this: Why exactly is this sci-fi?
I mean, it seems like common sense to me that if the Axis had won the war the world would have been completely differe..."
For some reason 'Alternate History' is generally considered a Sci-Fi theme. This particular example also flirts with the idea of alternate realities and the recurring PKD theme of what is really real.
Richard wrote: "For some reason 'Alternate History' is generally considered a Sci-Fi theme". I know that, but that also doesn't make much sense to me for the same reasons I pointed out about this book.
This particular example also flirts with the idea of alternate realities and the recurring PKD theme of what is really real.
"
Yeah, but as you said it's only "flirting" a bit in the end. It's not really the core of the story.
I guess another part of it is that because Dick wrote mainly sci-fi, people are more inclined to define any of his books as sci-fi. No?
edit: Maybe this isn't really that important but I just wanted to see what other people think.
The question whether the sub-genre of Alternate History should sit within SF has probably been argued many times before, and I certainly can't give you a definitive answer. All I can do is give you my personal justification, with the proviso that I'm not usually a fan of the theme. There are as many definitions of SF as there are books, but a recurring question in many of these definitions is the good old 'What if?'. What if super advanced aliens visited the planet? What if computers gained Consciousness? What if we colonized the planets? What if the Nazis won the war? What if Queen Elizabeth was assassinated before the Spanish Armada was defeated?(Pavane, one of my favourites)None of these situations exist in our world so it can be argued they must therefore all sit within SciFi/Fantasy/Speculative Fiction. Totally understand if you disagree with this argument, as I said this is just my own personal justification for the categorization.
As for the reality/alternate reality theme just being incidental, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. It's been a year or two since I last read this, but the overriding impression I was left with was the questions of what world do We live in. Early on one of the main characters has a brief vision of our world (I remember googling at the time to ensure what was referred to was our 20th century USA), and then the whole story advances to posit that the narrators world is not 'real' but that reality is in fact as portrayed in the banned book by the man in the high castle. In that reality the Nazis didn't win the war, but it is also obviously not a portrayal of 'our' world. So that leaves me thinking that PKD is asking his reader how do we know that we are living in the real world, and not some twisted offshoot that should never be. Now I suggest that by anyone's reckoning thats got to be SF, and the whole 'What is real, Man!' theme runs through PKD's work.
Oh and you're totally right that PKD is considered a SF author so that's how his books are going to be marketed and seen by his audience. Just look at Stephen King, Horror writer yeah, can't possibly be any good? ;-)
Thanks for the well thought out answer Richard.About it being within the realm of Speculative Fiction, of course I agree with this. But it isn't the same as saying this is sci-fi. I think it's fair to say that science fiction is a subset of speculative fiction.
About the other points you make, they're really interesting.
During the whole story I got the impression that the "Grasshopper..." novel was just another way for PKD to show us that the world as we know it would be different if history would have played out differently.
Obviously the fact that they say at the end that the "real world" is the one of "Grasshopper..." left me a bit lost the same way it did with the character Juliana Frink.
That's why I said it only flirts in the end with those themes, because during the rest of the book I thought of this as a plain alternate reality story.
But then again, I took it with a grain of salt. I don't think we can take what the I-Ching states as "truth". The fact is we don't know, and the protagonists don't know either.
Obviously PKD likes to create doubt in his readers, maybe he couldn't resist making the story a little bit ambiguous in the end.
So that's how I took it, a very good alternate history novel with an ambiguous ending. Some other novels of his like Ubik/Flow My Tears... are much more about those themes you mentioned than this is.
Sorry about me rambling away...
I agree the science fiction label comes from the alternate history label. But I can't think of another alt history that I've ever read, so I can't say how they compare. I remember reading somewhere that this is one of the first ones written.However, there was a subplot of Rocket travel and trips to Mars. Not sure the purpose of these except maybe to show how Germany had advance.
I'm learning to like PDK. His characters are real.
Sergio...ramble away. :)
Banner wrote: "However, there was a subplot of Rocket travel and trips to Mars. Not sure the purpose of these except maybe to show how Germany had advance."That's true, the technology seem to be a lot more advanced than in our real-life 1960's. It's too bad we don't get more details about technological achievements, except for that.
Banner wrote: "I'm learning to like PDK. His characters are real. "
Yeah, I think it's one the great things about this book, (and about PKD), his characters are always engaging and very realistic.
With regards to classifying Alternative History stories as "Science Fiction", I would say this:Science fiction can and does include all the sciences. Not just the "hard", natural sciences but the "soft", social sciences and so in that respect history is well within it's remit.
Focusing on the social impact of a particular event happening in the future is a common, non-disputed theme in science fiction. So why should it not be just because we are looking at an event happening in the past?
Oh, and I think it's worth pointing out that the term "Speculative Fiction" is a relatively new label coined by Heinlein (I think) in an attempt to make "Science Fiction" sound more respectable. It didn't even exist when "Man in the High Castle" was published.
Simon wrote: "With regards to classifying Alternative History stories as "Science Fiction", I would say this:Science fiction can and does include all the sciences. Not just the "hard", natural sciences but the..."
I had never thought of it that way.
That's a very interesting point.
Thanks.
Ah, yes, the old debate whether something is SF. But this has the interesting Alternate History twist. Thank goodness. I was getting bored. I would like to participate in this, but I'm in the middle of reading a book that requires a lot of focus. I'll have to see how I do with that book. The Man in the High Castle is up there in my reading queue.
Simon wrote: "With regards to classifying Alternative History stories as "Science Fiction", I would say this:Science fiction can and does include all the sciences. Not just the "hard", natural sciences but the..."
I really like that definition. Like Sérgio, I had never thought of it that way. That actually really opens the genre up for me.
Thank you.
I was thinking about the way PKD deals with japanese speach and behaviour in this book.To me it seems apparently convincing and well-researched, but I wonder what is the opinion of people who actually knows something about the japanese culture. Anybody?
I requested this from the library, and it just came in. Looking forward to reading this along with all of you!
I'm not Japanese but I've studied Japanese culture, the arts, attitude, etc. I need to read this book. I have to put a sticky on my mirror or something so that I will read TMITHC before July is over. Since I've been at Goodreads, good books have been quickly been in front of my face, so it's easy to forget a book.Sérgio wrote: "I was thinking about the way PKD deals with japanese speach and behaviour in this book.
To me it seems apparently convincing and well-researched, but I wonder what is the opinion of people who act..."
Sérgio wrote: "I was thinking about the way PKD deals with japanese speach and behaviour in this book.To me it seems apparently convincing and well-researched, but I wonder what is the opinion of people who act..."
I was wondering the same thing. Having little experience with that culture, myself, I was wondering how authentic this was or how much of it was driven by the prejudices of the time. It seems to be well-researched, but that may just be my uninformed opinion. I'm interested to see opinions of those in the know.
I’ve reread the ending to see what I thought about it now, and I honestly still don’t understand it. Perhaps that’s what PKD meant to do, but I wanted to hear what you folks thought about it.(view spoiler)
What do you people think about this?
For me it just ended abruptly, just as I thought the book was starting to delve into a story that would belt along it just stops.In respect of Japanese culture, having been born in the country and knowing a fair amount about Japanese culture, there are quite a few truths in the characters, how they act, and the way they think. I remember that when reading it, that it was a decent attempt at demonstrating and understanding the Japanese psyche.
Hi - another new member here, just thought I would have a look and see what was going on, only to discover that Man In The High Castle is this month's random read.. It just so happens to be what I'm reading right now!! At work currently so will look at comments later and post when inspiration strikes... Bye for now
Welcome Steve, this group is always reading something interesting, I have to say. I don't post much (but when I do, usually I'm overly-prolific so I guess it evens out) but I am never at a loss for an interesting discussion to read in this group. Unfortunately, due to time constraints limiting my visits here to once or twice a week, I usually find the discussions after it appears they are over :-( It's never too late to add in your own two cents. Take it from someone who is always chiming in "late."
-Friday
@phoenicianbooks
Sérgio wrote: "I’ve reread the ending to see what I thought about it now, and I honestly still don’t understand it. Perhaps that’s what PKD meant to do, but I wanted to hear what you folks thought about it.SPOILERS"
Sergio, did you know Goodreads has a special tag for hiding spoilers?? You can click the "(some html is okay)" to get a window to pop up that will "show" you how to form the tag on the fly but it's easy to do. Just standard HTML tag formation: < followed by SPOILER and > then your spoiler information (the stuff you want--or should want--to hide) and then close it with < followed by a slash /> and the whole thing will look like this (view spoiler). Then readers/other people just click the "view spoiler" to see it and "hide spoiler" to hide it again.
I've read this book a dozen times but I still would have appreciated having the choice to NOT refresh my memory as to the abrupt ending given that the last time I read it was years ago. Ah well. Now you know for the next time, right?
It's hard to believe anyone who loves SciFi has not yet read Philip K. Dick's entire body of work but there are new fans born every day :-)
@Jack thanks for chiming in on the question of authenticity regarding how the Japanese culture of that time was being reflected. I definitely think (know?) any writer of Dick's time who attempted to depict Japanese as anything other than "The Enemy" was delving into then-unknown territory. Even if he researched it (which I think he did, actually, as we sent a lot of engineers over there to work with them after we destroyed so much) it was entirely unknown territory to write a story about Japanese, in a favorable light, that Americans could still read and swallow whole. I don't know if any of his other famous contemporaries ever attempted it.
Anyone else know if any of the other "classic" big names did this? I'd be surprised if Clarke didn't but I read most of his stuff until about the mid-70s, then Rama killed my Clarke love. Well Rama II. I did like Rendezvous with Rama, just not the rest of them.
-Friday
@phoenicianbooks
Well, I did warn about spoilers.I'll hide that stuff. No problem.
Sérgio wrote: "Well, I did warn about spoilers.I'll hide that stuff. No problem."
Thanks, Sergio and kewel tag, isn't it? :)
Thanks Marjorie. I didn't know how to do that.
Mod
Megan get better! It's almost time for the next months reads.
Mod
Now that I've finally written my review of this one, I'd like to chime in with the only thing I knew about it going in. Dick actually used the I Ching in the writing - any time a character consulted the oracle, Dick did in real life, and structured the narrative and the subsequent events around what he'd thrown.
I think this does fascinating things to the narrative, and contributes to that feeling of unreality at the end - I think Dick wanted us to feel just as lost as he did, and if what I've heard about this one is at all true, apparently the results left him questioning his own reality.
I loved the ending, quite frankly, brain-breaking and all. That sense of unreality and unsettled stomach just delighted me.
Megan wrote: "Dick actually used the I Ching in the writing - any time a character consulted the oracle, Dick did in real life, and structured the narrative and the subsequent events around what he'd thrown."That's very interesting Megan. It does say in my copy that he used the I Ching but I hadn't notice it before. So this is another similarity between PKD and Abendsen and it helps explain the ending, he probably also asked the I Ching that very same question in real life.
Richard wrote: "The question whether the sub-genre of Alternate History should sit within SF has probably been argued many times before, and I certainly can't give you a definitive answer. All I can do is give you..."I think it's always important to remember genre classifications are about where to put the book in the store and how to market it, not necessarily what's in the book. And I agree, there are as many definitions of SF as there are writers/ publishers/ editors/ fans willing to define it one more time. :)
And BTW The Man In The High Castle is one of my all time PKD books and therefore one of my favorite books in general. And I definitely think of it as SF, but my version of SF is Speculative Fiction so a lot of types of books will fit under the umbrella.
Megan wrote: "I'm afraid I'm out of the running for next month's read - I've already read To Your Scattered Bodies Go, so I may chime in there, but neither my local library nor any of the local used bookstores s..."My feelings exactly, Megan. I don't think PKD was trying for a specific revelation so much as a state of mind. I think he wanted us to see shades of reality and branchings of possibility.
Sérgio wrote: "Thanks for the well thought out answer Richard.About it being within the realm of Speculative Fiction, of course I agree with this. But it isn't the same as saying this is sci-fi. I think it's fa..."
I've always felt the opposite, that speculative fiction is a subset of science fiction.
Megan wrote: "I just finished this about 15 minutes ago, and I think it broke my brain. I'm going to sleep on it and see if I can sort out my thoughts, and come back tomorrow!"If that broke your brain, don't read UBIK!
As to filed under science fiction because that's what the rest of his work is, that doesn't always work. Fredrik Pohl, Orson Scott Card are two authors who wrote other types of fiction which don't get filed under sci-fi. I think it's because it's alternate history. That guy Turtledove also gets filed under sci-fi.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "As to filed under science fiction because that's what the rest of his work is, that doesn't always work. Fredrik Pohl, Orson Scott Card are two authors who wrote other types of fiction which don't ..."Many of the 'alt' works that are lumped under SF(as in speculative OR science fiction) are dystopias. These works in many cases have a setting based in a flawed or failed science or technology, but the main story line is of an overall unpleasant or tyrannical society.
So much of what was written in the mid 60's forward to even the 1980's was as much dystopian as not. Some of it I like a lot and some it was just 'hey, I want a good story and not another sermon about the ills of the world'!
Yeah, it's put in SF because of the alternate history and hints of parallel worlds, but as far as the plot goes and what PKD really focuses on, it's has much more in common with his non-SF "mainstream" works. At its heart, MITHC is about relationships and psychology, the modern social condition (well, the Cold War social condition), which is what he focused on exclusively in books like Confessions of a Crap Artist and Gather Ourselves Together.His mainstream works usually focus on bitter marital relationships, socially awkward characters, people with obsessions and neuroses ... sound familiar? ... and eschew the 100-ideas per page complexity of his SF books. Man in the High Castle is steeped in pathos and postmodern ennui, and ultimately very light on the SF element.
Dick is one of my favorite authors, so i'm excited about this selection!