Old Curiosity Shop, The: Week 11 - Chapters LX-LXVI

[Lynnm]

I can't believe this is our second to the last week. I will miss the Old Curiosity Shop--especially Kit!

[Zulfiya]

I checked our reading schedule today and was quite befuddled to learn that there were only two sections left...

[Lynnm]

It's sad. And means we have to start thinking about the next Dickens tale: Barnaby Rudge. (Looking at the list of Dickens books, depending on how long Barnaby Rudge is, we might be reading A Christmas Carol near holiday time...that will be cool.)

[Robin P, Moderator]

This section was a fast read. Dickens again satirizes lawyers and law courts. It's clear that a trial has nothing to do with justice or truth. The good that characters do is rewarded, as Kit's friends and family rally round him (to the best of their ability, which is limited.) Also Dick Swiveller turns out to be a decent guy at heart, and is rewarded for that by the devotion of the Marchioness. Her habit of "peeping" is also rewarded!

We were discussing why Quilp is so determined to find Nell and her grandfather and therefore to harass Kit. I am still watching parts of 2 video presentations that I have as we go along. (Not the best idea for spoilers as one of them gave info around the middle about the mysterious lodger that we still haven't encountered toward the end of the book.) In those versions Quilp is clear that first of all, he thinks Nell and grandfather had secret money they took with them, which should be his, and also he just wants revenge. He feels they have laughed at him by escaping, and he can't tolerate that.

Quilp is truly presented as the devil here, or an imp of a fiery furnace, relishing boiling hot spirits and enveloping himself in smoke, He is like a mad puppeteer, pulling the strings of Brass, Sally and others (previously of the grandfather as well) and amusing himself with their struggles.

[Hedi]

Robin, you are right. This part was a quick read and I can actually not wait to finish the book. Even though we have not seen the full outcome yet, it seems as if at least for this thread of the story a happy ending is around the corner.

Robin, you mentioned Dickens's satirical attitude towards law and lawyers. To me it is always so hard to watch the innocent being treated this way, but unfortunately this a part of the world, not only in Dickens's days.
I thought it was a meaningful thing that the men wanted to talk about all this with Sally, "representative of the weak sex" in order to get her to admit everything and act against Quilp. However, she is the steady one and the "representative of the strong sex" breaks. As the caricature of the lawyer, Brass acts completely opportunistically and always tries to find the way that has a positive impact on his situation, whether right or wrong - real lack of character. In the end, Quilp is only able to manipulate and pull the strings of those that lack their own opinion.
As you said, even Dick turns out to have a good heart and act accordingly. I think it was very nice of him to take care of Kit and his family. In the beginning, I was still a little skeptical about his true intentions, but finally he seemed to actually mean it sincerely.

In my opinion the Marchioness is an interesting female character and seems to develop a little as a counterpart to Kit, maybe partially out of misery, but she seems to have a good mind and a good heart.

We had discussed the demon Quilp before, but here his diabolical and grotesque side become very apparent. This way he is the opposite pole to the angel like Nell. Heaven and hell. He also seems to be out of this world.

[Lynnm]

I'm not embarrassed to admit that I had tears in my eyes when the Marchioness helped Dick, when all that food arrived from the Garlands to Dick's humble flat, and then when he finds out that he's going to receive an annuity each year for (I think it was) 150 pounds.

In these last chapters, I really see Dickens as the master of Social Justice.

The Marchioness has little, but what she does have, she gives to Dick. (And really, his first kindness to her started their relationship).

And people who are wealthy have two paths:

One, they can be like the Garlands and the notary, and use their power and wealthy to help those in need.

Or two, they can be like Quilp, and those who serve the wealthy, like Mr. Brass and Sally, and not only just watch out only for themselves, but intentionally hurt those who have little just for their own gain.

Justice is served; at least we think - and hope - it will be for Quilp.

[Lynnm]

Hedi wrote: "I thought it was a meaningful thing that the men wanted to talk about all this with Sally, "representative of the weak sex" in order to get her to admit everything and act against Quilp. However, she is the steady one and the "representative of the strong sex" breaks. "

Good point. It minded me of Virginia Woolf's Three Guineas. She asks, what would women do if they had the money and power to rule the world as men did at her time. Her basic claim is that men have screwed up the world with wars, corruption, etc., and so it is time to give women a try. But, she says, women may just act the same way as men do if they had that same kind of power.

Sally proves her point.

Women can be as coldhearted, cruel and power hungry as men can be.

[Zulfiya]

I agree with everyone here - despite being quite a chunk, this part of the novel was a quick read. Maybe because this part was about real people (Kit, Dick, Marchioness)? I really liked the chapter about Dick and how he trusted his impulsive and kind heart. And one small step lead to another and then another and then snowballed. I also appreciate that Dickens did not show all the misery Kit was in during his incarceration and imprisonment - I liked this youngster so much that extra pages describing his misery and humiliation would really have made me feel uncomfortable - and I am not a sensitive reader as I often read dark speculative fiction and horror novels. And again we are dealing with Dickens tirade and quest against the current "justice".

Robin, I really liked the words "an imp of a fiery furnace" that you used to describe Quilp. It is such a surgically precise description. The chapter about Quilp is one of the spookiest and the most freakish chapters I have ever read. What Quilp was doing is beyond my comprehension. I personally think that he was exorcising his 'angels' as people exorcise their demons and find outlets for their darker sides. He is definitely a symbolic embodiment of evil and he is so freakishly grotesque and tangibly ugly. At the same time, I think he is one of the most memorable characters Dickens ever created - he is totally engulfed by human darkness. His ugliness, both inner and outer, desensitizes him; as a result, he does not need comfort and does not care about his meals, his lodgings, and his clothes - he is not a human being, but just an evil spirit in a human shell. And as soon as Dickens shows Quilp triumphant and at his worst/best for this imp, he immediately sends a positive message to his readers that even this evil incarnate is vulnerable to human decency and kindness.

Lynnm, good point about Sally. Dickens usually villainizes male characters, but there are some 'exemplary' female characters, and Sally is a 'worthy' example.

Hedi, have you noticed that each of the two plot lines has a character bigger than life - Nell and Quilp, and Quilp is chasing Nell and her grandfather but they hardly ever act together simultaneously. Maybe he believed those two could not interplay because that would be too much for a reader to handle?

[Hedi]

Zulfiya, I was alluding to your comment of Quilp and Nell. We had discussed her angel like and rather unreal character earlier and now Quilp is the counterpole. You are right, they never really interact, except maybe in the beginning of the novel when he talks about her making his wife and she has to cope with him on the errands her grandfather requests from her. Might the reason be that Dickens wanted to avoid a "clash" of the good and the evil? Could there be a religious background for this?

I have lately been wondering a lot why these plots seem so distant from each other. The only link is still perhaps Kit and possibly the lodger, but coming close to the end of the book it seems a little strange to get the plots quickly together again.
I think that is what I do not like of this novel so much - it seems so separated and as we discussed before, the late chapters around Nell are rather gloomy and sad to read vs. the active chapters around Kit. I really wonder whether Dickens will now wrap up everything quickly in the last few chapters. Is that maybe an issue of writing in installments similar to TV shows nowadays that then all of a sudden end and show a kind of wrapup in the last episode instead of thinking through the whole story and its end upfront?

[Lynnm]

Hedi wrote: "I have lately been wondering a lot why these plots seem so distant from each other. The only link is still perhaps Kit and possibly the lodger, but coming close to the end of the book it seems a little strange to get the plots quickly together again."

I agree that it is strange. It will tie in at the end, but it makes the text seem disjointed.

And you may be right - it might have to do with the fact that it was written in installments. It is hard enough to work all the elements of a novel together without having parts of it published before others. Maybe if it was published as a whole, Dickens might have been able to go back and make better connections at various parts of the book?

[Lynnm]

Hedi wrote: "You are right, they never really interact, except maybe in the beginning of the novel when he talks about her making his wife and she has to cope with him on the errands her grandfather requests from her. Might the reason be that Dickens wanted to avoid a "clash" of the good and the evil? "

I've wondered that myself. I'm not sure if it is to avoid good and evil side by side. Dickens seems to like drawing good and evil.

It might be that he thought that there would be more tension for the reader keeping them apart: would Quilp be able to find Nell and her grandfather. Also, if Quilp found them, the story would be over because Quilp would finish off the grandfather, and goodness knows what he would do with Nell at that point.

[[deleted user]]

I enjoyed this section and I'm glad Quilip may be final getting what he deserves. It's good too see the group working together to help Kit and I am happy to see a good side of Dick.

I feel that the Marchioness is a similar character to nell. She is unrealistic, in both in the hardships she has faced by being kept in the cellar and also by the goodness she has displayed in caring for Dick.

I have enjoyed the storyline in this book but have been a little disappointed in the characters. I have had no particular favourites and have not felt the majority to be very real

[[deleted user]]

Also I agree with others that it seems disjointed. I imagine the readers at the time would have not known if they were expecting a country or city chapter and this may have added to the suspense of the story

[Zulfiya]

Heather wrote: "I enjoyed this section and I'm glad Quilip may be final getting what he deserves. It's good too see the group working together to help Kit and I am happy to see a good side of Dick.

I feel that th..."

Heather, a very good point about Marchioness. They are indeed very similar - sacrificial, selfless, and willing to help, but I see Marchioness as a more tenacious, down-to-earth, and resourceful character. Actually, the hardships make her stronger.

[Hedi]

Zulfiya wrote: "Heather wrote: "I enjoyed this section and I'm glad Quilip may be final getting what he deserves. It's good too see the group working together to help Kit and I am happy to see a good side of Dick...."

I agree with you Zulfiya. The Marchioness seems more active (curious, her keyhole spying, her running away to help Dick, her selling all he possesses to make them survive) and down to earth in the few parts that we see her than Nell in my opinion.

BTW, I already finished the book yesterday and do not want to spoil anything. ;-)

[[deleted user]]

Zulfiya wrote: "Heather wrote: "I enjoyed this section and I'm glad Quilip may be final getting what he deserves. It's good too see the group working together to help Kit and I am happy to see a good side of Dick...."

She certainly has more depth to her. I am interested to find out about her background and how she ended up as Sally's captive

[Lynnm]

Zulfiya wrote: "I see Marchioness as a more tenacious, down-to-earth, and resourceful character. Actually, the hardships make her stronger.
"

I agree.

And the scene where she is going to the notary's office was just too funny. Darting around the city like that.

Very resourceful. I like her very much.