1984 part two

[Jenn, moderator]

Please discuss part two here.

[Jenn, moderator]

Nikkie wrote: "A thought has just occurred to me as I completed Part 2. It concerns Julia, who when I first this book I remember finding completely irritating in every sense. However, in reading this time, as an ..."

I can see that about Julia. She always seemed so young despite being an adult. She definitely has adolescent qualities. She still loves Big Brother just treats BB like a teen treats her parents. Much different than Winston who sees something wrong with BB and rebels because of that.

[Tina]

The main difference between Julia and Winston is that Winston is concerned with the future and Julia is concerned with the present. Once Winston is with Julia he becomes concerned with only the present as well for a while. This is another way that Julia has that teenager mindset that you point out.

[Jon]

I would elevate Julia's rebelliousness.

To some extent, teen rebellion is content-neutral: teens may rebel against their parents whatever the parents' values and rules may be, simply to assert their independence.

Julian's rebellion is not content-neutral. She rebels against suppression of the elemental life-force of sexuality -- and in doing so she liberates her sexual partners, like Winston. Big Brother cannot, she thinks, suppress her sexuality. It is the one way she can be free. It is the one way she can feel alive.

And Oceania is a patriarchy -- it is Big BROTHER, after all. And women's expression of sexuality has often enraged patriarchs. Witness the oppression of Hester Prynne in The Scarlet Letter -- and of the thousands of real life Hester's in America and Europe burned as "witches" by sexually-frustrated patriarchs who could not have them. Witness the abomination of genital mutilation on the part of some Muslims in order to control women by denying them their sexuality. Witness the recent executions by stoning of Muslim women for adultery in Somalia and Afghanistan.

Julia is a hero.

[Jon]

Nikkie wrote: "Jon, I see your point with everything you have said. In fact the suppression of female sexuality by Big Brother is something I would completely agree with. I never really thought that her actions f..."

I respect that POV, Nikkie.

Julia was certainly brave, and her actions served a noble end. But did she risk danger in order to liberate others, adding that element of selflessness that you seek in a true hero, or did she seek to serve her own ends only? Perhaps the former, as you say; forgive me, I'm going from memory here.

Maybe she was a hero only in her personal universe. I do feel that her pursuit of joy was heroic; there was virtually nothing else to live for in her world, and I'm happy that she had the courage to grab some joy when she could.

[Debbie]

Julia is the example of what happens when we are disconnected from our history. She has nothing with which to compare/contrast her present life. How can she work for something better when she has no idea what it would be? She operates in a vacuum.

Winston can be more heroic in Nikkie's definition. He knows there is something better and even has an inkling of what it might be. And he is older so has a different perspective on life.

[Ash]

I agree with nikkie's ideas about Julia. I too found myself thinking she was just a rebellious teen trying to stick it to the man without any fundamental reasoning behind it. I also believe her motivations are not to help others or make a difference on the world but simply for selfish reasons. She is worried about her own happiness above all else. This is evident through her interactions with Winston, every time he begins to speak about the issues concerning BB on a deeper level and even when they are reading "The Book" she always blatantly looses interest and/or falls asleep. She doesn't have the same desire or passions to see a change as Winston because she is disconnected from what is really happening and is only focused on her sexual liberation. I think another driving point that shows her selfishness is that to keep her double life hidden she chooses to donate time to the anti-sex league, there are many other causes and ways she could show her manufactured loyalty to BB but she chooses this one in particular, proving she isn't concerned about other women's sexual freedom, only her own.

On a different note, did any else ever find it ironic that the telescreen was behind the picture? The reason I say this is because both Winston and Julia spoke of moving it for various reasons but got distracted from doing so. For example their first night in the room Juliia talks about removing it for cleaning yet never actually gets around to it.

[Jon]

I'm not sure that Julia had a choice about how to serve The Party -- "choice" was in short supply in Oceania! I don't recall the textual evidence either way, forgive me.

However. If she did choose to serve in the Anti-Sex League, that would have been a sensible choice for a secret libertine -- naturally she would have wanted to deflect suspicion that she was sexually active.

[Ash]

Yes but I was just arguing the point that her decision was to deflect those suspicions and were for selfish reasons not for the universal sexual liberation of women as you suggested in one of your previous posts.

[Erin]

I wish it hadn't been mentioned that there were fleas in Winston and Julia's sex room. That thought never left my mind for the rest of the book. (...Just me?)

I can see why Julia is the most controversial character in the book. I admit that I hated her. I respect Jon's point of view about her physical rebellion, but I feel like as a character in a book, she was only there to facilitate Winston's physical rebellion. He needed to feel passion, and she was the vessel for his passion. If she had had personality of her own I might have felt some affection for her. If she had just stayed awake while Winston was reading the book! This is your rebellion, too, Julia! Your world, too!

(Although I was falling asleep too. That section was SO LONG.)

Was anybody else fascinated by the proles? I wish we had learned more about them. For as much as the Party members are front-and-center in the narrative, they are actually a minority (weren't they?) in their society. This minority group, through propaganda and control of the marketplace, managed to guide the lives of the rest of the country. I'm not saying this is not possible; history tells us that it's happened all the time. What makes me laugh a bit is how much of a close correspondence it is to capitalism, the Party's most hated philosophy.

[Jon]

Erin wrote: "I wish it hadn't been mentioned that there were fleas in Winston and Julia's sex room. That thought never left my mind for the rest of the book. (...Just me?)

I can see why Julia is the most contr..."

Hi Erin,

I do find the proletarians a compelling and important part of the story—as in real life.

I think we get a worthwhile glimpse of the proles' lives during Winston's forays into their sectors. The ruling elite did a great job of pacifying them with alcohol (and sex, if I recall correctly that prostitution was state-supported ... do I?) and starving their minds through lack of knowledge. Orwell was writing about the USSR under Stalin, I believe, but sedating the working masses with "bread and circuses" goes back to Rome and is, if I read you correctly, a favored tool of ruling corporate and governmental elites in capitalist countries too (rampant consumerism, distortion of information via political and corporate advertising and p.r.).