Graven Images

[Beth]

Sorry - I'm a bit new to this - is it ok just to start a new topic? I wondered if anybody else had read Graven Images? Its a novel about a scientist who encounters Wicca, and starts off very sceptical, and then slowly starts to understand it. But what I'd be interested in hearing is how much of the historical background is real - like the Romans killing off the druids and stuff. Anybody know?

[Old-Barbarossa]

Not read it, but aye, the Romans went into Anglesey about 60ce and pretty much stamped out the druids...mind you at the time the Britons were doing their own butchering and laying waste to London and Colchester, so the indigenous folk weren't all sidhe hugging peaceniks as is sometimes portrayed.
As a Hx geek I'll try and answer any questions, but as I said, I haven't read this particular book.

[Nell]

Hi Beth, it's fine to start a new topic. I haven't read the novel, but looking at Ray Norris's profile and the blurb for Graven Images, I'd say the historical background is pretty much bound to be authentic/accurate.

[Nell]

From wiki:

"The Roman writer Tacitus, himself a senator and a historian, described how when the Roman army, led by Suetonius Paulinus, attacked the island of Mona (Anglesey, Ynys Môn in Welsh), the legionaries were awestruck on landing by the appearance of a band of druids, who, with hands uplifted to the sky, poured forth terrible imprecations on the heads of the invaders. He states that these "terrified our soldiers who had never seen such a thing before..." The courage of the Romans, however, soon overcame such fears, according to the Roman historian; the Britons were put to flight, and the sacred groves of Mona were cut down.[52] Tacitus is also the only primary source that gives accounts of druids in Britain, but maintains a hostile point of view, seeing them as ignorant savages.[53] Ronald Hutton meanwhile points out that there "is no evidence that Tacitus ever used eye-witness reports" and casts doubt upon the reliability of Tacitus's account of events.[54]"

[Nell]

I have another account of this event, which also mentions ...black-robed women with dishevelled hair like furies, brandishing torches.

[Old-Barbarossa]

A good fictional account of the Iceni war is in Imperial Governor: The Great Novel of Boudicca's Revolt, fairly "warts and all".
All from the Roman viewpoint though.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Belle wrote: "The Romans didn't attack the Druids until the Druids formed a military coalition to resist them. Then the Romans took out the druids."

As a rule the Romans tended to be OK with local religion. Even adopted "foreign" gods (Mithra and Isis being fairly popular in Britian and were Roman imports).
But where that religion led to resistance they were fairly ruthless in the suppression. Anglesey and Jerusalem are good examples.

[Beth]

Thanks for all the feedback. yes that's pretty much what it says in the book - that the Romans realized that the Druids were effectively the leaders of the Britons, so Britain would never be conquered unless they got rid of the druids. So I'm really not sure where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Anybody heard of the Book of One? I Googled it, but the book says it's secret so I don't expect you'd find it on Google. Anyway, you can see why I found the book addictive! It's a bit weird - it starts off with the main person being very negative about Wicca, but later you realize you're seeing his prejudices, and later in the book, as he learns more about Wicca, he becomes very sympathetic - but you're never quite sure whether he really believes it or not! But he does ask for the help of the Goddess when he's in real trouble, at the same time as claiming (to himself) that he doesn't believe in this stuff. He's a very mixed-up individual! The main story is his love for his girlfriend, which transcends death. It's very moving. I can't tell you more without spoiling it!

[Old-Barbarossa]

Beth wrote: "...not sure where the fact ends and the fiction begins..."

If the book suggests a continuity of tradition from 1st cent ce druidism to modern wicca I'd start to smell fish.
As to the "Book of One", never heard of it myself and haven't read Graven Images so don't know the context...but as the druids didn't write things down I think it's unlikely to have any authenticity if it claims to relate to their tradition.
I mentioned Jerusalem above...one of the reasons that Judaism survived the Roman carnage is the written word...druids didn't have books so tradition passed by word of mouth...if the mouth is on a severed head, not so easy.

[Beth]

I cant say very much more without spoling the story for you, but Owen, the main character in the book, would totally agree with both of those points> Let's say it keeps you guessing until the end!

[Sienna]

I'd agree with you Beth - it keeps you guessing till the end! But it is meant to be fiction, so just because it has a lot of (true) background info about the beginnings of witchcraft, and some real spells and ceremonies, I don't think things like the Book of One are meant to be real. But really that's all just background. It's really a mystery/thriller about a young scientist's quest to find the murderers of his girlfriend, and coming to know Wicca as result. I thought it was a spine-tingling book!

[Old-Barbarossa]

Have you read The Wicker Man: A Novel?
Ignore the Nick Cage film though...pile of pish. Old one with E-wah Woo-wah in it is top stuff.

[Nell]

Ignore the film with a naked Britt Ekland working her magic through the wall?! I nearly died laughing...

But wait - you mean the US film, right? I haven't seen that. I loved the original, in spite of BE's awful acting, but the ending knocked me sideways - I thought there'd be a huge clap of thunder and torrential rain and all would be well and all would be well and all manner of things would be well...

[Old-Barbarossa]

Aye, Britt has a terrible accent in it...and the neckid dancing was a body double. Oh the illusion of cinema...
The new film is truly dreadful.
The book goes into a bit more detail and there's heathen heretics too.
As to the ending...was it wrong of me to root for it?
Sorry, going off from the original thread topic...

[[deleted user]]

Personally I'm happy with your off topic discussions too, Old Barbarossa! Great stuff. Added the book and will seek out the old version of the movie. I've avoided the Cage version, suspecting that it was crap. The only movie he was any good in is Bringing out the Dead.

[Nell]

Old Barbarossa wrote:"As to the ending...was it wrong of me to root for it?"

Not really, I s'pose, it was the calves and the other animals I was worried about - I knew Edward Woodward was only acting...

[Emily]

I saw the original Wicker man movie and it rocks! I'd recommend anyone who hasnt seen it to try to get a copy. I'd also agree with Sienna's comments about Graven Images. Totally worth reading. Don't be put off by the main person's negative comments about Wicca. He starts being very sceptical about Wicca and then gradually realises there's more to it than he thought. Thinks - that wouldn't be a bad movie either...