Boxall's 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die discussion
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Moll Flanders
1001 Monthly Group Read
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June {2012} Discussion -- MOLL FLANDERS by Daniel Defoe
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"...I could quite happily have died never having touched this load of claptrap with a barge pole."hahahahahaha love it!
Fiona wrote: "I have absolutely NO idea whatsoever as to why it is on Boxall’s list "might I humbly suggest the possibility, however unlikely, that you're missing the point of the list in the first place? It's for important novels in the history of the art form, not for novels that make Fiona feel good. And without accepting that, you're going to "absolutely HATE" many, many more books on the list.
How about this
http://www.gradesaver.com/moll-flanders/
There are some links there that may help you to understand the importance of this, one of the earliest novels in the English language and thereby not only appreciate it but also others on the list you'll encounter if you're serious in your attempt to finish it.
I've been working on the list for 6 years and am coming up to my 350th book. It took me a long time to realise that when I "absolutely HATED" a book, it was because I wasn't a mature enough reader to understand it. That was a humbling experience but one I'm grateful for.
Except for the Mysteries of Udolpho.
FrankH wrote: "I'm not sure Moll Flanders is intended as entries in a diary. Usually, this form displays specific dates as headers or sub-headers. Not so here, at least in my version. An introduction to the Mo..."I agree that in several points in the book, she clearly refers to the tale as meant for others. It was a journal of sorts, but seemed clearly intended for an outside reader. I also didn't feel she was as cold as some described her as being.
Part of the issue with the children may have been a function of the times and the fact that everyone lost many children in relation to the ones that survived, many in infancy. I think it may be that this affected people's attachment to children, especially as babies. Also, if you look at the way upper class families farmed out children to nurses and governesses for much of the children's early years, we may just be projecting our current way of relating to kids back onto people living in different circumstances. A better comparison might be to women in China in the past several decades, who have let children go for financial and political reasons. Also, remember that the children she had with the first husband were taken by his family while she was not provided for after his death--imagine what that does to a person, and then she lost several children. Also, she did care very much about what happened to the first child she placed with the "governness." I think the accumulation of losses has to have had an impact on her ability to connect after awhile.
I didn't expect to like this book as much as I did. I found it in some ways very sympathetic to the plight of women in Moll's shoes--without fortune and family to protect them as they tried to make their way in the world. I found that particularly impressive coming from a male author. Apparently I'm an outlier in this regard, but it is where I ended up.
Arukiyomi wrote: "was anyone else impressed by the fact that Defoe wrote this novel from a woman's point of view. I don't know how rare this was for male authors to do at the time but I thought he did an excellent j..."I was with you on this. I thought he did remarkably well, particularly given the era in which he was writing.
I thought so too, a very sympathetic view at what a single woman had to do to survive. it is a very important social document also. I was shocked that wo en could not have interest on bank accounts and that bank accounts had to be held in trust by men. What an impossible situation! So of course, she grew crafty and had her eye on the main chance. She was also thinking about her children because she wouldn't be able to give them a good life if she kept them with her, so she farmed them out to more stable well to do households.
Yrinsyde wrote: "I was shocked that...bank accounts had to be held in trust by men"Are you talking about 18th century Britain or 21st century United Arab Emirates?
Yrinsyde wrote: "I thought so too, a very sympathetic view at what a single woman had to do to survive. it is a very important social document also. I was shocked that wo en could not have interest on bank accounts..."To say nothing of the fact that an unmarried woman would go to jail for giving birth. Horror, shock. Society cannot survive with bastard children running around.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Society cannot survive with bastard children running around."It can survive. Unfortunately, while we now sanction "bastard children running around" we have yet to come up with solutions to the social problems it creates. For all our "enlightenment" we don't seem to be much better at dealing with "bastard children running around" in our day than were in Defoe's. At least, that's the evidence I see in the UK.
LOL - perhaps my comment should have been phrased in the past tense. I was referring to the 18th century attitude.
Social commentary aside, my favorite part about reading this book was the opportunity for status updates of the 'Where's Waldo' variety. I noted each time a new Flanders child was mentioned, as well as where each one ended up - at least, as far as I was able to determine. THAT was a good time! LOL!
I enjoyed this book more than I thought I would. I agree with the earlier comment that throughout much of the story, I was picturing "proper society ladies" reading this with their eyes popping out of their heads. I, too, was a bit confused at the ease with which Moll's children disappeared during the course of the story. I have a few thoughts as to why that was. 1) Her children were not the point of the story, Moll was. Her children served only as obstacles to be overcome, in terms of plot. 2) This was an early novel, things like continuity may not have entered Dafoe's mind. 3) Dafoe, for all his sensitivities towards Moll, was still a man, and may not have given much thought to the children himself or may not have known how to tackle that subject and so left it out.The part that bothered me more was page after page of theft. Not from a moral standpoint, but from a boredom standpoint. I got it Moll! You've robbed people! You're sneaky! Other people get caught, you should stop, but you don't.
I'm not reading along because I read this a while ago and although it takes a very different tone and approach to Robinson Crusoe, I did really enjoy it. Moll presented a different kind of female voice and attitude - different from the Austens and the Brontes, a lot coarser but more fun!
Arukiyomi wrote: "Fiona wrote: "I have absolutely NO idea whatsoever as to why it is on Boxall’s list "might I humbly suggest the possibility, however unlikely, that you're missing the point of the list in the firs..."
It's not that I "didn't understand" it - it's just that it is really badly written and not particularly enjoyable. "Don Quixote" is a novel which was written before "Moll Flanders" and is far better written and much more enjoyable. I don't think there was anything not to understand about Moll Flanders, I just didn't think it was of an acceptable standard to be on the list. But thanks for the link anyway
Fiona, out of curiousity I was wondering (and this is slightly off topic) if there are any books in the 20th century section of the 1001 list about which you felt similarly?
And along a similar point, have you read Fanny Hill by Cleland and what did you think of it, because there are some similarities and therefore I would imagine you might have disliked that too?
It's been years and years since I opened Don Quixote, but I won't be opening it again. I could see no point to it, they just rode around, so I didn't finish it. My opinion? It's a horrid book. Each reader can have different reactions to the same book. It doesn't mean that either reaction is the one true opinion.
Boxall's 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die
Books mentioned in this topic
Fanny Hill, or Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure (other topics)Clarissa, or, The History of a Young Lady (other topics)
I’m thinking that Defoe wrote it to highlight the plight of women during that era and there were so little choices available to them. However, this is an insult to all of the Godly women at the time who managed without incest, prostitution, theft, fraud etc!
She seems to pop out children left write and centre, which is fine … there was no contraception in those days … HOWEVER … what is unforgivable is that the author seems to completely forget about their existence and we’re left thinking … “Hang on … where did THEY go???”
I would not recommend this book to my worst enemy and has to be one of the biggest wastes of time I have ever endured.
I have absolutely NO idea whatsoever as to why it is on Boxall’s list because I could quite happily have died never having touched this load of claptrap with a barge pole.
Moll Flander could take up several episodes of the Jeremy Kyle Show. That's what I kept imagining throughout the whole sorry tale!