Fifty Shades of Grey
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Sick and tired of all the controversy!!!
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Viola wrote: "What I think is interesting is that we have many readers out there who are very upset about this "copying off another author" business, yet the professionals in the business don't seem to mind. "As long as they're making money, a lot of people don't seem to mind.
And I would suppose it's technically not illegal but I'm pretty sure it's disrespectful to the source material and to the author of aforementioned source material. Possibly unethical too.
I think "copying off another author" is fine in some cases. Not this one though. Even derivative work gives a nod to the source material, fifty shades does not.
Heather wrote: "These "books", no matter how you change their titles, or the character names are still fan fiction. The author set out, based on, and wrote for two characters that were not her own. In every action, in every piece of dialogue she was inputting the characters of Bella and Edward. She was consciously picturing and writing Twilight characters, and many people know that. "
Thank you!
Yes heather you nailed it in one I actually deleted my reply yesterday in similar vane because I all so fear repercussions might ensue.It wasn't so long ago that I signed a petition opposing ACTA, why because artistic licence is a wonderful thing. It's a fine line we tread and EL has definitely crossed it and opened it up for further scrutiny.
Whether Meyer's camp may or may not have responded is hypothetical considering all the free publicity it's drummed up, Edward and Bella to the unenlightened are now household names. Need I elaborate.
and as fond as am of my soap box this has nothing to do with being pedantic. I mean it wasn't even fit for publication, and had it not been for it's shady origins going viral random house would never have picked it up.
Money talks which is why she has tried to remove MOTU without a trace. Heh if only cyberspace were that forgiving.
As for regurgitating the classics as a fitting example apart from the fact most of them were written with the quill pen their all so available within the public domain for free so therefore don't enter the equation.
Susie wrote: "I am so sick and tired of hearing all the arguments about Fifty Shades this and Fifty Shades that!!! For CRYING OUT LOUD this is NOT the ONLY sexually explicit romance novel out there!!! And I say ..."I totally agree with you in every aspect- you go!!!!
Heather wrote: "I am a fan fiction writer since 2002, and an English Major with a Creative Writing Minor. I also read the original MoTU when it first was being written as Twilight fan fiction. So many are up in ar..."Excellent points. I hated FSoG - the writing was terrible, and even if I didn't know it was a Twilight FF, I would have recognized the characters right away. I also believe this will lower the quality of works published. There are so many excellent writers who cannot find publishers, and then this garbage writing gets published. I'm kind of disappointed in the publishing industry after this.
Landofthedragon wrote: "Yes heather you nailed it in one I actually deleted my reply yesterday in similar vane because I all so fear repercussions might ensue.It wasn't so long ago that I signed a petition opposing ACT..."
Heather wrote: "I am a fan fiction writer since 2002, and an English Major with a Creative Writing Minor. I also read the original MoTU when it first was being written as Twilight fan fiction. So many are up in ar..."
I think it's ridiculous for anyone to say in one sentence that is unethical to copy someone's work and change names, yet it's not unethical to copy Jane Austen because she wrote it with a quill pen a long time ago.
It seems that the issue many have is that she copied material, yet again, in some instances, I read posts where it is okay sometimes but certainly NOT with this book.
I don't get it.
I also don't think that Edward and Bella suddenly became household names because of these books. They were already well-known all the way back to 2006 when they were first published.
Either way, I think that if people are genuinely upset about the issue of publishing fanfiction, then my question would be: if you were writing fanfiction, would you NOT publish it? Be honest! How many of us would turn away the money E.L. James has made? And again, I still believe that if it were truly an issue, Meyer's camp would be all over it. As a writer, I think I would just be opposed to writing fanfiction in general. I never read it, or anything published as extensions of the stories because the original story and characters are then changed for me, which I don't care for, but that is just a personal preference.
My other thing is that I think if people are going to disagree on fanfiction writing and publishing it, then it would be a more solid argument if you just disagreed with it completely and not for certain cases.
Those are just my thoughts. I'm not trying to make enemies! :) Just thinking aloud.
Viola wrote: "It seems that the issue many have is that she copied material, yet again, in some instances, I read posts where it is okay sometimes but certainly NOT with this book.I don't get it."
Well it has been mentioned that examples like Jane Austen stories are in the public domain and Twilight is not.
EJ James hasn't respected the source material. She appropriated the characters from copyrighted material and claimed them as her own. FSOG is supposedly "original material" and not a twilight spinoff/alternate universe or something, which it may very well be.
Vintage (one of her publishers) even claimed in more than one interview that MotU (the twilight fanfiction she wrote) and FSOG were two substantially different pieces of writing. But the truth is most of the changes were a find-and-replace job on the names. Huge portions of the text are identical.
Yes yes she probably did it for the money and not many will turn down money. But it's disheartening to know that people can just edit someone else's work against their wishes, claim it as their own and sell it.
There is also the issue of how EL James treated the fandom.
To quote Ms. Jane from the dear author blog: "The ethical issues surrounding profiting off of fanfiction includes, but is not limited to, the expectations of the community and to what extent the community of fanficcers would be involved in the shaping of the fiction. Fanfiction pieces like MoTU generate quite a bit of feedback and response. How much of that is represented in the final piece. Would those individuals be involved if they knew that their efforts were going to be the basis of someone else's profit. "
Diane wrote: "Viola wrote: "It seems that the issue many have is that she copied material, yet again, in some instances, I read posts where it is okay sometimes but certainly NOT with this book.I don't get it...."
I don't understand this issue. FSoG is NOTHING like Twilight. Just because she used the names Edward and Bella to begin with does not mean the story itself is not an original work.
And if she would have wrote the fanfic but NOT posted it online and then changed the names and got it published with no one knowing the original names were Edward and Bella, then what? There would be no issue right? Because the STORY is original.
Now if the following statement is true then I can see issues of not giving those who helped credit...
"Fanfiction pieces like MoTU generate quite a bit of feedback and response. How much of that is represented in the final piece. Would those individuals be involved if they knew that their efforts were going to be the basis of someone else's profit. "
So if someone who was a fan of MoTU contributed an idea or something that EL James used in FSoG then that person could have issues, although it probably is not illegal since the idea was not copyrighted, but just unethical.
Susie wrote: "I don't understand this issue. FSoG is NOTHING like Twilight."Nope. It IS like twilight.
Here is a list I found at a blog. Source link below.
Numbers 11-52 in spoiler tags because it's hella long.
1. Fifty Shades of Grey was originally written as a Twilight Fan-Fiction story called Master of the Universe, using then names Bella and Edward. The published copy of FSoG is 89% identical to the fan-fic story, with mainly name changes and very, very light editing, not enough to consider it an entirely different piece of work.
2. Shortly after Edward says, “If you were smart you’d stay away,” Bella is about to be hit by a Van which Edward saves her from / Shortly after Christian tells Anna he’s “not the man for her” and sends her away, Anna is about to be hit by a Cyclist which Christian saves her from.
3. Both male leads are extremely attractive and admit they can’t stay away from the ordinary girl, to which both females respond, “then don't.”
4. After leaving her friends in Portland, Bella finds herself in an alley with a group of men, one of which has dark intentions for her and Edward shows up after stalking her to save her, again. After leaving her friends in Portland, Anna finds herself on the side walk with Jose who (combines this scene with the one where Jacob forces a kiss on Bella and the one where Bella needed to be saved from a man in a dark alley) as he forces his affection on Anna and Christian shows up after stalking her to save her, again.
5. Bella describes Edward as a superhero but Edward says he’s the bad guy / Anna describes Christian as a white knight but Christian says he’s a dark knight.
6. They both force their ladies to eat while they reveal bits about their dark secrets.
7. Both Bella and Anna feel a jolt / shock at the touch of Edward / Christian’s “long pale cool fingers.”
8. Both girls repeatedly suspect if Edward / Christian can read their thoughts.
9. During their long day apart, both Edward and Christian go hiking with their brother Emmett / Elliott.
10. Both Edward and Christian join Bella / Anna when she flies to visit her mother. While both Bella and Anna describe their out of state mother’s as always going from one hobby to the next, both are surprised at how clearly their mother’s are able to pick up on the depth of the relationship their daughters are in. Both mothers are easily charmed by the good looking male lead with a dark side they cannot see.
(view spoiler)
Source: LINK
Fifty Shades is so dear to me since I've been a fan since the early days of MoTU and I've grown to love the characters and I remember waiting weekly for an update so it was definitely something that I enjoyed. I'm happy for the author and for the popularity of the book it always amazes me when I see popular media outlets talk and discuss about this book. Our local newspaper did an article how local adult shops are always going out of stock since the popularity of the book and it brings a smile to my face :P
Susie wrote: "WOW ya'll are just... I don't know but, why can't we have a positive thread? Why do people put so much time into something they don't like?"Irony. Pure, blissful irony.
Viola wrote: "Landofthedragon wrote: "Yes heather you nailed it in one I actually deleted my reply yesterday in similar vane because I all so fear repercussions might ensue.It wasn't so long ago that I signed..."
As someone who is an author - and not just of fanfiction, which I have been writing for a decade. I can give you an answer to one of your questions. I would never take my fanfiction and rehash it to sell for a profit. My integrity and professionalism as a writer is worth more than that. I admire the fanfiction community and have been a part of it for too long. I would be cheating myself and my readers by not coming up with the most original thing possible.
MoTU is not original and has been done to death. I honestly don't see what the big deal is when the BDSM in the stories is not all that well written, as I have definitely read better.
I'm all for supporting my fellow fanfic authors in their professional writing lives. All of this bunk with E.L James and her published fanfiction just give me another chapter in my English master's thesis on Fan Fiction and It's Community.
Diane wrote: "Susie wrote: "I don't understand this issue. FSoG is NOTHING like Twilight."Nope. It IS like twilight.
Here is a list I found at a blog. Source link below.
Numbers 11-52 in spoiler tags because i..."
Wow I admit that is pretty crazy even though I never noticed that while reading the book. I just don't pay that much attention to the finer details I guess.
Viola wrote: "Landofthedragon wrote: "Yes heather you nailed it in one I actually deleted my reply yesterday in similar vane because I all so fear repercussions might ensue.It wasn't so long ago that I signed..."
Viola wrote:I think it's ridiculous for anyone to say in one sentence that is unethical to copy someone's work and change names, yet it's not unethical to copy Jane Austen because she wrote it with a quill pen a long time ago.
Okay with out meaning to sound flippant about it the point I was making is the violation of copyright, apposed to what already exists within the public domain where the copyright has expired which would constitute as plagiarism instead. That's not to say it has a free reign but it's far easier to take liberties with.
The Right to Derivative Works. This is the right to modify the work to create a new work. A new work that is based upon an existing work is a "derivative work." Copyright infringement would occur here if someone wrote a screenplay based on his favorite John Grisham book and sold or distributed the screenplay, or if someone releases or remixes of one of your songs without your consent.
Based on that I'd say EL's argument would be very sketchy, and even though she's tried to wipe the slate clean being cyberspace usually comes back to bite you. I found at least three copies out there, Which by the way had no disclaimers attached.
The one thing everyone does seem to agree on though is that the characters bear no resemblance beyond the physical names, again hold my hand up I wouldn't know.. but again it really isn't the point if they are not recognisable as Edward and Bella it's about intent rather than her lack of understanding what fanfiction is all about.
Viola wrote:My other thing is that I think if people are going to disagree on fanfiction writing and publishing it, then it would be a more solid argument if you just disagreed with it completely and not for certain cases.
It's not about profit and I kind of take exception to say that because of EL's actions others like heather should stop doing what they love it isn't about money never has been, but creative expression and being invested in something enough to want to explore it further.
It's about borrowing not stealing and that really is the crux of the matter. Financial gain should not come into it.
You see, I recognized the character similarities to Edward/Christian, Bella/Ana, and Jose/Jacob immediately and really felt it was a rip off of the original characters. FSoG is Twilight with whips, chains, and handcuffs instead of sparkly vampires in high school. I'm surprised EL James hasn't gotten in trouble for stealing characters. I mean, look at Diane's post above listing all the character similarities! I would think EL James would be a little embarrassed for not being able to create/develop her own characters.
I didn't get the controversies either. The explicit scenes weren't that bad (definitely not eye bulging kind of explicit). It's an adult book with BSDM big whoop! If their issues are regarding the BSDM theme, then again big whoop! Some people consider it as a lifestyle, someone decided to make a book about this particular way of living, I don't think there's something wrong with that. The readers are adults, the author is an adult and the characters are adults. So what is it that people find controversial about this trilogy?
I am in love with this series. I completely agree that these books have substance and not just sex scenes. I love their background stories. I just started the last book.
So what is it that people find controversial about this trilogy?
Because it so incredibly, terribly, horribly, mortifyingly badly written.
Nicci wrote: "So what is it that people find controversial about this trilogy? Because it so incredibly, terribly, horribly, mortifyingly badly written."
I totally agree. The controversy is that a publishing house picked this garbage up and published it when there are a lot of amazing writers who don't get a publisher. (and no, I'm not a spurned writer)
So what is it that people find controversial about this trilogy? It's derivative work of copyrighted material.
It was first published as fanfiction.
See: LINK
The author was "notorious" in the twilight fanfiction fandom.
See: LINK
p.s. SQID is short of SnowqueensIcedragon which is EL James' fanfiction penname.
To be fair that last link is biased. It's someone's side of the story at least.
Oh... so the whole controversy is about it being too Twilight-ish. I admit this is the first time I've read that FSoG is/was a Twilight fanfic.
Megan wrote: "I am in the middle of book 2, Fifty Shades Darker. So far I enjoy the books. They are a nice, easy read that keeps you interested. If you were really expecting some great literary piece then you..."What I find rude is the backlash to have an opinion that doesn't fit in with the squee mentality, I too am getting a little ticked at the cheerleaders asking for a break.
If the synopsis had been honest I might never have bought it hence felt justified to rant. I've never read Twilight so why put myself through something that without the sex would have probably appealed to a younger audience.
Somebody likened it to Danielle Steele, frankly they were being kind. At least she didn't fake it, it's not original in anyway or form and if Icy's reading this I'd love a refund. Ahem!
Landofthedragon wrote: "What I find rude is the backlash to have an opinion that doesn't fit in with the squee mentality, I too am getting a little ticked at the cheerleaders asking for a break."What I find rude is that the OP started this thread with the idea that those of us with like-minded squee mentality could discuss the book. 127 posts later and it doesn't look like that is going to happen. And we annoy you?
I personally loved the books. Yes, there is a lot of sex. Yes, some of the writing needs improvement. But give me a book thats perfect in writing and then we can talk. I think a big issue in this book is the psychological damage that came with Chrisitan's past. We have to understand as a society that that sort of past is NOT FICTION. That is VERY real. And the damage that comes with it is VERY real. Another concept that lacks in our marriages today is the fact that regardless of all of Christians crap, Ana stood by him. She didn't give up. When things get hard people today want to run and get a divorce, or cheat. So yeah, the book has a lot of sex. Yeah, the writing isn't that great. But how about instead of searching out the negative you see what you can learn from it. It doesn't have to be your favorite book, and you don't have to like it. But if you make the choice to read it, instead of looking for the negative, how about searching for the positive?
Katie wrote: "I personally loved the books. Yes, there is a lot of sex. Yes, some of the writing needs improvement. But give me a book thats perfect in writing and then we can talk. I think a big issue in this b..."so true!
Katie wrote: "I personally loved the books. Yes, there is a lot of sex. Yes, some of the writing needs improvement. But give me a book thats perfect in writing and then we can talk. I think a big issue in this b..."
Amen
Amen
Susie wrote: "I am so sick and tired of hearing all the arguments about Fifty Shades this and Fifty Shades that!!! For CRYING OUT LOUD this is NOT the ONLY sexually explicit romance novel out there!!! And I say ..."I agree. I am more intrigued by the humanistic/psychological part of the novel. Then again, everyone reads with a different lense. I've been told that the novel's characters aren't well defined or thought out, and that is utter rubbish. This is an underground world that is unfamiliar to many people, including myself. Ana is me, innocent to the sense of Christen's world. I am more curious as to why his wealth has anything to do with it though.
Look without getting into mindless petty squabbling you YOURself rated it only 1 star... and for whatever reason have come here to take issue.my gripe is and always has been with the book and the way it was in MY OPINION miss represented,
Anything I've said on here I wouldn't be afraid to say to EL herself. It's not personal, if this book had been written as a complete original I probably wouldn't even have wasted time commenting on it.
As it is felt compelled to point out what I consider fair game considering the way it was shoved into the public domain. At least be honest when you want to sell a book. That's all I'm saying.
well i must admit i had no idea about fanfiction : where is it all ? loli must admit as a average reader i loved the books: maybe i'm naive but there certainly woke me up: what other books would you all recomend ?
Thaaaaank you!!! I mean geez, if you don't like the books, then just don't read them! And I'm sick as well of hearing such blasphemy in regards to a series that isn't even the first erotic fiction to ever be made.Those who have flipped out so bad over the book need to seriously get over it. They're just inspiring the book that much more anyway! lol
Hype is a powerful thing. How do think cultest nutjobs get people to drink the poison kool-aid? Because they make it sound tasty!
Stephanie wrote: "Thaaaaank you!!! I mean geez, if you don't like the books, then just don't read them! And I'm sick as well of hearing such blasphemy in regards to a series that isn't even the first erotic fiction ..."But how is one to know they don't like a book if they don't first read it?
For me, I don't go ranting and raving on a book that I don't care for. It's only when it invokes strong emotions that I do. I don't think it's fair that only people who love certain books are allowed to praise wherever they want, but for those who don't like it have to keep our mouth shut. Does that seem fair?
Most people also aren't saying "blasphemy" about the book because it's erotic, but because of its deceitful portrayal of BDSM and because of Christian's abusive behavior.
If you like the book, then that's wonderful. But man am I tired of hearing people say "don't read it if you don't like it".
I'm not sure how I came across, but none of what I wrote was intended to be malicious.
The first bit of S&M doesn't appear until page 502. And even that is kinda pathetic. I mean rock stars do crazier crap than this.It's actually a pretty tame book when compared to the market. And...well, boring!
NOTHING HAPPENS!
It's all about sexual awakening...and? Oh, nothing!
It's Cinderella with backwards twist. 'Normal girl meets millionaire tortured sexy douche, falls in love, learns about herself and her sexuality and the rest of the world no longer exists'.
Then there is mass genocide, econmic collapse, drugs, STD's, the mafia and sports...no, wait, none of that actually appears in this novel.
Handcruffs make the world okay! YAY!
Amanda wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Thaaaaank you!!! I mean gee"Amanda, I don't think anything you said sounded malicious at all. Actually, you made more sense in regards to those who don't care for the book, than many others have. The only problem and what I find it extremely annoying is with certain people who rant and rave over something they hate, while degrading those who did enjoy the book.
Sure, I understand that some people don't like the particular sexual acts of the book. But honestly, the mention of true S&M is brought up more as talk than as full action. And although Christian's behavior was controlling and out of hand, everything made sense by the end.. No, not an ideal relationship-- but in a fantasy sense, it's the thrill that get's women worked up over him.. lol
Katrina wrote: ""what the hell does this have to do with anything? it did make me laugh though. thanks : )
Stephanie wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Thaaaaank you!!! I mean gee"Amanda, I don't think anything you said sounded malicious at all. Actually, you made more sense in regards to those who don't care for..."
I actually do not think this book is really about S&M at all. I think that S&M is what Christian called his behavior or his wishes, but it was about using a "lifestyle" to cover up his own self-loathing. S&M was not his "natural bent" if that makes sense. For those who are upset that BDSM was not portrayed correctly, I do not think it was MEANT to be portrayed correctly. I think it was used as a crutch to cover up his feelings of lack of control in his life and his childhood issues. In a sense, his practice of BDSM was a sort of perversion of the real thing. He used a parody of BDSM as a tool to keep women from getting emotionally close to him. The only one who was actually allowed to pierce that protective shield was the one woman who would not agree to his directives.
Joanne wrote: "Julie wrote: "Hannah-rebecca wrote: "Meh. There's always controversy. If people are going to take up arms against this book, they should do it based on the terrible writing, not the content."In t..."
I became so annoyed by the bad writing, and terrible characters, that I did write my own book, or rather novella. If you want to check it out, it's at Amazon, very short and sexy. I'd give someone here a free copy if they'd like to review it on Goodreads and start a discussion.
Diane
http://www.amazon.com/Miss-Greys-Shad...
Susie wrote: "Landofthedragon wrote: "Susie wrote: "WOW ya'll are just... I don't know but, why can't we have a positive thread? Why do people put so much time into something they don't like? If you don't like i..."You seem very, very defensive. :/ You started this thread in a public forum, on a VERY controversial book, and then expected no one to respond? And as for all the negativity, they are feeding off of your very negative first post that started all this. If you are truly sick of the controversy surrounding this book, then ignore it. You just created a whole new place for people to complain.
Susie wrote: "I am so sick and tired of hearing all the arguments about Fifty Shades this and Fifty Shades that!!! For CRYING OUT LOUD this is NOT the ONLY sexually explicit romance novel out there!!! And I say ..."thank god somebody is totally right for a change i want to post my book ive been writing and im sure it would get the same critisim as 50 shades of grey i loved the books read them many times over thought Christian was sexy and seriously obsesive at times and thats what drew me to him his amazing company being so young and with such a horrible past that he can try to get past it and meet Ana. Ana is amazing i dont care what anybody says she loves with a passion and i just loved how she is so awed by Christian Grey's looks and she instantly falls in love with him and i love how in the end he marry's Ana which is soooo cute and when christian's glideyer goes down and they think it crashed and he doesnt phone Ana i was sooooo sad i was like yelling at the books lolz. you are an amazing person send me a friend request we can talk books and NO CRITISIM!
And i cant wait for the movie i <3 Christian Grey<3
It's really not at all about her ability as a writer it is about her lack of research into a very serious community of people. The BDSM community is very expansive and they have rules and regulations that people are asked to follow. The simple fact is that while I commend E.L. for her success and her writing technique she is responsible for flooding that community with a wave of new people who do not know those rules and do not follow safe practices and people are getting hurt because of it and the community at large is being blamed for it. While when it first came out the kinky community was excited they quickly realized that these new people were a liability to everyone. People do get hurt but the fact is it is the individuals fault. Unfortunately the media at large does not see it that way.Secondly it is important to point out that while E.L. made BDSM more mainstream she also made a point to make all characters into it as messed up mentally as possible. Did you know that if the army finds out you have participated in BDSM activities you can actually be dismissed? They still consider it a mental health illness despite the fact it has psychological studies backing that just about every person has inclinations to some sort of power exchange.
Everyone is aware that it is fiction and that it is not to be trusted but to be honest I have to tell you it is effecting real people. Some people are determined to get themselves hurt and honestly the kink community is getting sick and tired of being blamed for it. You should read some of their opinions on this. Everything you've had said to you just comments on the quality of the books and in fact the books were a great, fabulous read. It's just the issues and subjects it brought into the open that have the world reeling. Imagine if the life you lived every single day with your partner became the table discussion of every gathering. You'd find out what your friends think of you without ever having to tell them and sometimes its better not knowing.
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These "books", no matter how you change their titles, or the character names are still fan fiction. The author set out, based on, and wrote for two characters that were not her own. In every action, in every piece of dialogue she was inputting the characters of Bella and Edward. She was consciously picturing and writing Twilight characters, and many people know that.
As someone who has read BDSM and erotic fiction for close to 20 years - nothing in this "fan fiction" work was original, or all that well done. Anne Rice's Beauty Trilogy was full BDSM but at least had a background, well-planned 3 dimensional characters, and had a story line. I've read fantastic tales in Penthouse Forum, and once belonged to an erotic book-of-the-month club. The writing in "Masters of the Universe" was not at all impressive, and people who know the world of BDSM knows that domination is not all about pain, humiliation, degradation, or physical abuse. It's about trust, respect, and admiration, and love - things I found incredibly lacking in the characters.
I am by no means a hater, even though I detest the way that E.L. James has used the fan fiction community to her own gain. If people want to read horrible fan fiction, then that is on them. I feel in love with the characters of Twilight, not because of the books (which I abhorred), but because of talented fan fiction writers who delved more in depth into the characters than what Meyer was ever able to create.
James took mediocre fan fiction, which I read for FREE, changed the names and passed it off as her own. She burned a lot of bridges in the fan fiction community, and because of her, more authors are going to make disclaimers against fan fiction. Anne Rice still sends cease and desist letters, as do many others. I hope she is happy with what she in the long run could cost to the whole community.