Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Best Supporting Characters and Favourite Scenes
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True, Serena did take very good care of Fanny's feelings; their relationship I did like. Bath Tangle was just not one of my favorite GH novels. It is wonderful that we have these places to share our opinions! It helps me to be more open-minded when I hear how others feel.
Critterbee wrote: "True, Serena did take very good care of Fanny's feelings; their relationship I did like. Bath Tangle was just not one of my favorite GH novels. It is wonderful that we have these places to share ..."
You are so right!! I have loved GH books for so long- and now, it is an absolute treat to be able to participate in these discussions with intelligent, sensitive folk who may not always agree with me, but who always express their opinion with elegance, sensitivity and understanding. What a fantastic group!!
I always enjoyed Bath Tangle myself, if only because it shows a strong and affectionate friendship between Serena and Fanny, even tho' they are such opposites in temperment - and it's odd to me that that's something you hardly ever see in GH - sisters can get along well, but you hardly ever see real female friendship portrayed. A friendship does develop between Judith and Bab in AIA, but I'm suddenly hard-pressed to come up with any other examples (Phoebe and her governess?). And I love the scene where Serena gives Ivo such a dressing-down after he dances only with Emily - and even tho' he leaves in a huff he does go back to the ball and do as Serena asked him. I thought that reflected well on his character. : )
Bath Tangle has never been my favorite, but I think I'm going to have to read it again in the light of all your comments. I've always thought Serena and Ivo both to be too strong-willed to live with, but that does make them a good match. As long as they vent their spleens on each other, it's two strong combatants in the war and not one constantly getting beat up while the other is always right. Not bad, actually! And they both do show softer sides at times, so they're not one dimensional. Elliot, I can't think of any serious female friendships, either. I don't know if this was a conscious lack in Heyer's plots or if it was just that a woman without close friends is more apt to quickly turn to the hero for help? Interesting thoughts!
Off of the top of my head, I can think of:Sophy and Cecelia in The Grand Sophy - although they were cousins, they did not grow up knowing each other very well.
Deborah and the helpless girl who's name I cannot remember in Faro's Daughter - hmm, though that was a bit of a "rescue the innocent" situation... Plus, I cannot remember her name!
Hmm, this is difficult. Can anyone else think of more?
Judith and Barbara in An Infamous Army?
Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most of the other female-female relationships I can think of are between relatives. And often, as with Serena & Fanny, with an element of love but not a meeting of the minds. Abigail and her sister in Black Sheep for example or Frederica and Charis in Frederica.
The fact is that we usually catch these young women between the times when they might make childhood friends and the time when they have an opportunity to make adult friends. I'm reminded that, talking of Cecilia, Lady Ombersley mentions that "her dear friend, Miss Friston, was married", and that young women's childhood friends would often be separated from them by marriage. Once they're married themselves and settled down, they can then make women friends in the neighborhood, but we usually don't see that stage. I do recall Lady Denny being a friend to Venetia, but that's more a mentor/protégée relationship.
Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most of the other female-female relationships I can think of are bet..."
Real friendship does have to have a meeting of the minds. A one-sided relationship where, e.g., one of friends is always rescuing the other, or where the understanding is always on one side, or all of the conversation is about one of them and rarely the other, is not really about true friendship. It's more of a convenience or even a kind of taking things for granted. I think that's sometimes why sisters fall into that category. They share an upbringing and even love most of the time but not always minds and outlooks.
I don't think friendship has to be 50/50, but it can't be 90/10 all of the time, either.
Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and read "Talisman Ring" - for some reason, I can't remember that one at all, and always seem to get it mixed up with "The Toll-Gate", which I know I've read!
Elliot wrote: "Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and read "Talisman Ring" - for some reason, I can't remember that one at all, and always seem to get it mixed up with "The Toll-Gate", which I know I've read!"The Talisman Ring is the one about Eustacie, the French girl who comes to live in England because of the Revolution and her happening to meet Sarah Thane, the level-headed woman who is staying at the inn where all of Eustacie's adventures begin. The other Sarah in The Tollgate is the tall one who meets the tall man who is masquerading as a tollgate keeper. There's a dying grandfather in both of them!
And I do think that Sarah and Eustacie will be good friends. If Sarah can keep from laughing herself to death at Eustacie, I mean...
Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most of the other female-female relationships I can t..."
I do so agree Karlyne! And it is those real friendships which the books lack. Perhaps it is because her heroines are often unconventional in some way that they haven't found real friends, or maybe it is as Margaret suggests, that we catch them between childhood & "matronly" friends. Thinking about this makes me wonder though - for the women who live in the country (rather than in London or Bath), friendships might have been difficult due to the distances between estates. The number of "socially acceptable" women who live near by must have been small & so a true meeting of minds might be rare... No wonder going to London for the season was so important!
The other Sarah in The Tollgate is the tall one who meets the tall man who is masquerading as a tollgate keeper.Except she's not Sarah, she's Helen (Nell) Stornaway. You're right about the dying grandfather, though.
Leslie wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most of the other female-female relat..."
I was thinking of Austen's novels and how the only real friendships portrayed by her are those of sisters, Jane and Elizabeth (and the other three have no share in that meeting of the minds) and Elinor and Marianne. Cathy in Northanger Abbey does develop one good friendship (although I think it an unequal one in understanding, which will grow as she does)and one bad one, when she goes away from home. Fanny in Mansfield only has one, when Mary moves into the neighborhood, and that's certainly no model for friendship. Anne in Persuasion essentially has no one, and Emma revolves around Emma trying to make someone into her own likeness so that she will have a close friend. I think proximity has to have a lot, a very lot, to do with female friendships. We're such a mobile society now that we forget how hard it used to be to travel and how isolating life often was.
P.S. Elizabeth did have Charlotte as a friend in P & P, but she was shocked at her thought processes, so that might have been a bit one-sided, too!
Margaret wrote: "The other Sarah in The Tollgate is the tall one who meets the tall man who is masquerading as a tollgate keeper.Except she's not Sarah, she's Helen (Nell) Stornaway. You're right about the dying..."
Haha! I seriously was thinking of her as a Sarah, too, and wondering why Heyer didn't pick different names for her heroines... Wasn't Cousin Kate's governess Sarah Nidd? (I'm trying to redeem myself in the matter of Sarahs)
Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most of the other fema..."
I do think we are so used to the kind of lives we can live in the 21st century - that we forget how circumscribed the lives of the kind of women depicted in GH's books actually were. Many, if not most of them, would be educated at home and would depend on a network of family members for social contact. Girls were expected to marry young and social events were designed to promote a good marriage, so the opportunity to make friends was really limited. Proximity, geography, cultural habits and expectations all made it very difficult for them, so it is not surprising that familial relationships were the easiest seedbed for friendships. On the other hand, I count myself lucky that like most of us, I have made friends throughout my life - from the many different places I have lived; from school, from university; from many different workplaces, from clubs and societies and political activities, from holidays and from a range of social events. Many of these opportunities just would not have been there for these girls.
Susan wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friends.But most o..."
And most of us only make a few "bosom friends" over the course of our lives, even though we do have many more opportunities. When you think of the very limited chances of meeting a like-minded individual in days gone by, it's amazing that there were any such friendships!
Karlyne wrote: "Susan wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will be solid friend..."Absolutely. - our family our given to us; we earn our friends!
Susan wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Susan wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Sarah Thane & Eustacie in The Talisman Ring - although they meet in this book, you can see that they will..."Absolutely!
Elliot wrote: "I always enjoyed Bath Tangle myself, if only because it shows a strong and affectionate friendship between Serena and Fanny, even tho' they are such opposites in temperment - and it's odd to me tha..."There's Kitty and Meg (and the other girl--the one who elopes with her cousin to France)in Cotillion--Olivia?)
It is rare in this genre for the heroine to have female friends. Often the hero has sidekicks but not always real friends. He's usually a titled gentleman, of course, so he has his far share of yes-men. That of course paves the way for him to fall for Frederica or Venetia or Serena - someone who doesn't stand on ceremony or toad eat. I enjoy a story where the characters have someone to confide in. Marissa I love Sophie and Parthenope in Courtship and Curses. Their friendship is wonderful and Parthenope is such an enthusiastic supporter.
I believe Mary and Juliana from Devil's Cub were friends. They were at school together.
QNPoohBear wrote: "It is rare in this genre for the heroine to have female friends. Often the hero has sidekicks but not always real friends. He's usually a titled gentleman, of course, so he has his far share of yes..."Thank you, QNPoohBear--I liked their relationship too. :)
Critterbee wrote: "Louise wrote: "Tina wrote: "Yes you have got it.I was thinking about the minor characters and I remembered Mrs Floore. I think it was in Bath Tangle. Just the right sort of GH minor full of recogn..."
i took a dislike to serena near the beginning, when she was complaining about not being able to manage to £700 a year. it's what the late Arthur Marshall used to refer to as 'tumbril talk' - when you consider the average labourer's wage at that time was about £25 a year. Major Kirby I thought a terrible wet lettuce - how could he possibly have been so completely unaware of Serena's character as he was?
Louise wrote: "Critterbee wrote: "Louise wrote: "Tina wrote: "Yes you have got it.I was thinking about the minor characters and I remembered Mrs Floore. I think it was in Bath Tangle. Just the right sort of GH m..."
'wet lettuce'...you used the term 'wet lettuce'...now I will *never* be able to look at Major Kirby in the same way again!!
Female friendships? Jenny and Julia in Civil Contract went to school together and were sort of friends, but more rivals ..
Jenny and Julia...Jenny :D
Julia ><
Critterbee wrote: "Jenny and Julia...Jenny :D
Julia ><"
Sorry but ??? I do not understand what these signs mean! I am not up to speed with Internet speak.
Sorry!Only I admired Jenny so much, and Julia I, well, did not.
They were friends, from before at their school, and their friendship seemed to be mostly due to Jenny's patience with Julia's neediness. I felt that it was a 90-10 friendship. Jenny did not seem to mind, or at least she did not let it show.
Critterbee wrote: "Sorry!Only I admired Jenny so much, and Julia I, well, did not.
They were friends, from before at their school, and their friendship seemed to be mostly due to Jenny's patience with Julia's need..."
Julia was nice to Jenny as far as inviting her places, etc., but it didn't really cost her anything. And, although Jenny understood Julia very well, Julia didn't know a thing about Jenny! I don't think that Julia ever thought about what made her tick, but simply thought of her as just somebody who was there. More than acquaintship but much less than real friendship.
Elliot wrote: "Louise wrote: "Critterbee wrote: "Louise wrote: "Tina wrote: "Yes you have got it.I was thinking about the minor characters and I remembered Mrs Floore. I think it was in Bath Tangle. Just the rig..."
And not just Major Kirby!
I think Julia thought about everyone only in relation to herself. What did the Marquis see in her? And I apologize for not using real words in my above post.
Critterbee wrote: "I think Julia thought about everyone only in relation to herself. What did the Marquis see in her? And I apologize for not using real words in my above post."
The Marquis was intelligent and had a sense of humor and pots of money. I have no idea just what he saw in her, either! I guess love just doesn't always make sense, because I think he did love her. He saw her honestly, but somehow he thought her charming!
There is no explaining love. And you are right, he was not deceiving himself about her true character, and did want to take care of her and keep her happy. I guess there is somebody for everyone.
Critterbee wrote: "There is no explaining love. And you are right, he was not deceiving himself about her true character, and did want to take care of her and keep her happy. I guess there is somebody for everyone.""Somebody for everyone" made me laugh, because I have had so many friends whose marriages were unfathomable to me. I don't know about you, but right off hand I can think of several couples where all the advantage in brains and temperament seem to be on one side. But they've been married forever, so there must be an intangible there that works like glue!
Haha!Love, the relationship glue.
Elliot wrote: "Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and read "Talisman Ring" - for some reason, I can't remember that one at all, and always seem to get it mixed up with "The Toll-Gate", which I know I've read!"The Talisman Ring is well worth rereading. I love that book. Let us know your reaction when you get a chance to reread it.
Lori wrote: "Elliot wrote: "Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and read "Talisman Ring" - for some reason, I can't remember that one at all, and always seem to get it mixed up with "The Toll-Gate", which I know..."I have it ordered up as we speak... : )
I love the final big scene in the Unknown Ajax. Heyer is like a shiver of several high spirited horses that carefully manages, giving them their heads, but still she is control. The characters all act in accordance with their character traits we have seen developed and all bring the scene to a delightful conclusion. But Lady Aurelia as a 'mere woman' delivers the final coup de grace to the helpless riding officer. I can just see his partner trying to sidle out without incurring any additional wrath from his Lordship. The part where grandson and grandfather lock eyes and the pain is seen and remorse begun is a simple line but GH shows her ability to read human emotion and to convey it without having to spell it out in long convoluted sentences.
Elliot wrote: "Lori wrote: "Elliot wrote: "Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and read "Talisman Ring" - for some reason, I can't remember that one at all, and always seem to get it mixed up with "The Toll-Gate",..."That's great! I, personally, love the audio book, too.
Here's an endorsement: When my daughter, Anne, could only fit two books into her luggage to Japan, she picked The Talisman Ring and a French version of an Agatha Christie.
Tina wrote: "I love the final big scene in the Unknown Ajax. Heyer is like a shiver of several high spirited horses that carefully manages, giving them their heads, but still she is control. The characters all ..."The Unknown Ajax is one I came late to, and I need to re-read it soon.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Courtship and Curses (other topics)The Toll-Gate (other topics)
Footsteps in the Dark (other topics)
I enjoyed Serena and Ivo's battles. I was entertained by them.
Among the points that you mentioned about the book, I enjoyed Serena and Fanny deep bond. They were two women who had vastly different temperament, but loved each other.
Serena was a complex character and had qualities that are are turnoff to a lot of readers. But I felt that since she wasn't jealous and bratty after having her father's undivided attention for so long--was a kind stepdaughter to her father's ridiculously young wife.
Fanny and Serena don't seem to really have much in common, but are devoted to each other.