Book the Second - chapters 1 - 24 *SPOILERS allowed*

[[deleted user]]

I haven't read the ending yet, so I still have hope that Dickens will.

[Jemidar]

Well, some might say Carton is redeemed but not in the way I mean here. (I only know the ending from watching the old B&W movie years ago!)

As to your grammar question, I can't say because I don't tend to notice that sort of stuff but as I've read a couple of writing books that have used quotes from Dickens' novels as examples of bad grammar and syntax, it's entirely possible. I'm just finding those passages verbose and overdone.

[[deleted user]]

I agree with your assessment, verbose and overdone. I find myself reading through several times. I get the overall meaning of the section, but the individual sentences escape me.

[Jemidar]

Really, so long as you are getting the overall meaning of the section, I wouldn't worry about some of the details too much as IMO Dickens puts in much more than actually needed!

[Sylvia]

Jeannette wrote: "I just read the part with the four men serving the chocolate, and Dickens' descriptions of all of the beautiful and important people waiting for a nod or a look from the Monseigneur. Am I the only..."

I had the same problem with this part. I put my e-reader away and will re-read the chocolate page tonight again.

[Geevee]

Jeannette wrote: "I agree with your assessment, verbose and overdone. I find myself reading through several times. I get the overall meaning of the section, but the individual sentences escape me."

Jemidar and Jeannette I agree. There are times when I think he has written so well and creates a scene or atmosphere with great skill, but for the most part in my view I find them overdone.

[Sylvia]

Geevee wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "I agree with your assessment, verbose and overdone. I find myself reading through several times. I get the overall meaning of the section, but the individual sentences escape me..."

Sometimes I have a difficulty understanding Dickens' writing and I have to use Google translate to translate parts of a sentence in Dutch. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it don't and the translation doesn't make sense. I shrug and read on.

[[deleted user]]

Sometimes he conveys a thought perfectly; I really enjoyed the imagery of the coming storm. At other times, he does seem to go on and on to make a small point.

[Jemidar]

I finding he just goes on and on... ;-D.

[Geevee]

Sylvia wrote: Sometimes I have a difficulty understanding Dickens' writing and I have to use Google translate to translate parts of a sentence in Dutch. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it don't and the translation doesn't make sense. I shrug and read on.
.."

If it helps you can always ask me on here or via PM as I (or others) may be able to help - to read Dickens in my own language is at times a challenge so to do it in a second language must be ever so difficult.

[Sylvia]

Geevee wrote: "Sylvia wrote: Sometimes I have a difficulty understanding Dickens' writing and I have to use Google translate to translate parts of a sentence in Dutch. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it don't and t..."

Thanks Geevee, if necessary I'll ask. Although English is a 2nd language I manage in most cases and if I'm absolutely stuck, there's always my library to get a copy of Dickens in Dutch. For the time being I'm alright.

[Sylvia]

I've got the creeps of the Marquis' behavior when his coach overrun a child and killed it. I know that the nobility was not particularly fond of the mob and ordinary people, but the way Dickens describes the absolute lack of empathy made me shiver. I must confess I'm glad I'm born in an other time and place.

[Kim]

Jemidar wrote: "I finding he just goes on and on... ;-D."

I just see that as part and parcel of Victorian fiction. I can't think of a Victorian writer who didn't like to use lots and lots of words! The idea that Dickens was paid by the word is, as I understand it, myth, but he probably should have insisted on it.

I agree that Carton has the potential to the most interesting character - all that tortured worldweariness can be quite attractive. In comparison, both Charles and Lucie are pretty wet.

[Marialyce]

This is nothing compared to something written by George Eliot. Remembering they were storytellers, there was no competition with the things of today. They were the entertainment of the Victorian age. Many read or had stories read to them and many were serializations, so they needed to keep the readers hunkering for more. TofTC is mild in length and rhetoric compared to some of Dickens other words or that of other popular Vic writers.

[Jemidar]

I know wordiness is part and parcel of the Victorian thing as it is with writers in the Georgian era, but when it comes to Austen, Eliot, Gaskell and Thackery it doesn't bother me one bit. Dickens on the other hand...well lets just say it's not inspiring me!

Funnily enough, as an experiment I'm reading this in the sections it was serialized in and am finding it not that compelling. I certainly wouldn't have been pacing the floor waiting for the next installment!

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Hayes wrote: "What I was confused about is why Carton had to do the work at 3 in the morning, drunk as a skunk, with a wet towel wrapped around his head! The whole mental image is very strange and wonderful (typically Dickens). "

I wondered about the towel too, and Carton had to keep refreshing it. I took it as part of his ritual in order to work but why the middle of the night?

To Marialyce question, yes I do to some degree. I think I may even have mentioned about him squeezing every bit of research he could into the book. So some of the characters are sacrificed in lieu of historical facts. Lucie being the most noticeable to me but they all lose a little something so far. It sometimes feels like two books, the historical laden one and the character driven one. In the history passages, Dickens can get so confusing with all his allusions and contemporary Victorian references that I re-read many of them over, sometimes never getting it, even with the research links. I appreciate the character driven portions which help me to put me head back on straight, if that makes any sense.

Having not read Dickens, except A Christmas Story, was it normal for him to foreshadow events as he did with Carton's quote (msg 33)?

I find Carton fascinating and understand what Jemidar means about his redemption not being the one the reader (at least of today) seeks.

Marialyce, George Eliot, oh my that memory suddenly makes Dickens easier, LOL. I can't imagine many of his contemporary readers got everything and some of these same overworked passages had to go over their heads too. Although I admit biblical references were probably more understood by Victorians than most readers today, Dickens certainly puts in quite a few, I wonder if this too is normal for him? Or is this because of the evil to come and another way to compare good and evil.

I am sadly only at chapter XVIII, having lost reading time to a blasted stomach virus. I so hate having down time like that when I am unable to read, just unfair!

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Okay, Margaret and I wonder if anyone else got confused during chapters 7-9 when referring to monsieur and monseigneur. We know there are two people, the French lord eating his chocolate and monsieur the marquis (Darnay's uncle) denied an audience with the chocolate loving monseigneur, but then things get confusing when monseigneur is used as an honorific when talking of the marquis. In chapter 9, it is mentioned that he was expecting the Monseigneur as a guest, then monsieur walks out of the room, returns "In a quarter of an hour Monseigneur was ready, and sat down alone" Is Dickens intentionally obfuscating things or just trying to show he is higher up than those around him?

As Margaret said "Not once did it mention a last name for the Marquis/Monseigneur." So she looked further and discovered her book comes with a summary of each chapter which gave us - "7. Monseigneur, a French lord, takes his chocolate; character of the people who frequented his rooms; Marquis Saint Evremonde drives over and kills Gaspard's child; Defarge comes, and a stout woman, knitting. -8. The Marquis goes to his country-seat; the poverty-stricken village near it..."

Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they? Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz. Sorry had to add that, it it on tv right now as part of Judy Garland's 90th birthday. The quote seems so perfect for this election year here in the U.S.

[Marialyce]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Hayes wrote: "What I was confused about is why Carton had to do the work at 3 in the morning, drunk as a skunk, with a wet towel wrapped around his head! The whole mental image is very strange and ..."

I am finding him very heavy handed with the foreshadowing in this novel. I have to wonder if it is not because of its historical nature that this has occurred. I have read five other of his books, (although not Barnaby Rudge which is his other historical fiction) and I have not seen this overwhelming foreshadowing before.

[[deleted user]]

Chap. 6 finished.

Love the description of Miss Pross and her fits of "the jerks".

I agree Marialyce, a little too much foreshadowing.

[Marialyce]

Hayes wrote: "Chap. 6 finished.

Love the description of Miss Pross and her fits of "the jerks".

I agree Marialyce, a little too much foreshadowing."

I think it sort of takes away from the "surprises" of the novel.

[Geevee]

The point on Victorian writing is well made as one only needs to read non-fiction such as Henry Mayhew or contemporary reports on the poor by the London City Mission to see that dense, descriptive and often exceedingly polite style in use.

Also the route to communications and entertainment was the written word whereas late 20th and current 21st century the technologies, our options and own understanding/preferences are so different to the typical reader who picked up weekly instalments at WH Smiths at railway stations.

I do wonder what a modern editor would say to Dickens et al perhaps "sorry old son but it's a little detailed and we'll need to get the editor on it"?

[Marialyce]

You can bet, Geevee, the editor would be all over it....
In today's techno world, brevity is usually the key. I oftentimes, when reading a long current novel, find myself saying...."come on, get to the point already." We are products of our times for good or for bad I think.

[[deleted user]]

So, true, Marialyce. And, yet, I think Dumas could have done better with this story. Count of Monte Cristo was a big book, but I chewed through it quickly because the story kept moving, and I really wanted to see what lay ahead in the next chapter.

I am almost to the point of giving up on this one until my trip to Germany. But, now that I see that I have passed Hayes, who was so far ahead of me, I see a ray of hope. I'm at Chapter 10.

[[deleted user]]

I've just finished chap 7... it is very different from the count, isn't it? I'm hoping that the story will pick up after we have set out all of the background stories.

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 7 was a bit of a slog, just to set up the action in chapter 9. Now, that was satisfying!

[Jemidar]

Geevee wrote: "The point on Victorian writing is well made as one only needs to read non-fiction such as Henry Mayhew or contemporary reports on the poor by the London City Mission to see that dense, descriptive ..."

GeeVee, for me it's not that whole Victorian thing that is getting me because I expected that and enjoy other Victorian writers. Wilkie Collins for one can write a page turner. It's just that Dickens in this is taking so long to say not very much! Really, even for a Victorian novel this is moving at snails pace. Each chapter is like a vignette to make a plot point, and sometimes they are even fairly minor plot points!

[Marialyce]

Jeannette wrote: "So, true, Marialyce. And, yet, I think Dumas could have done better with this story. Count of Monte Cristo was a big book, but I chewed through it quickly because the story kept moving, and I rea..."

Jeanette, I have to say that Book 3 (at least to me) has gotten a lot better. Trip to Germany that is super nice!

[[deleted user]]

Good to hear that the book improves as the action must pick up. We're visiting the grandparents -- we go every year now.

[Marialyce]

Jeannette wrote: "Good to hear that the book improves as the action must pick up. We're visiting the grandparents -- we go every year now."

Because my husband worked for the airlines for quite a few years, we were able to visit many European countries.(on the cheap!) We never did get to Germany though which of course, I regret.

[[deleted user]]

We couldn't/wouldn't go as often if it wasn't to visit my husband's parents. Now that we go every year (my FIL is 80, and not up to travel), we try to see a bit of Europe on a side-trip.

[Geevee]

Jemidar wrote: "GeeVee, for me it's not that whole Victorian thing that is getting me because I expected that and enjoy other Victorian writers. Wilkie Collins for one can write a page turner. It's just that Dickens in this is taking so long to say not very much! Really, even for a Victorian novel this is moving at snails pace. Each chapter is like a vignette to make a plot point, and sometimes they are even fairly minor plot points!..."

Jemidar I will achieve my aim through this group read of finishing a Dickens, but I don't think I shall rush to read another. If I were to try Wilkie Collins what would you suggest as a first - The Moonstone looks like it might suit me.

[Geevee]

Having lived in Germany for a while I'd recommend visiting as it is such a wonderful country from cities, museums, scenery, food (and beer!), gigs/concerts (classical to pop/rock), churches, football and ease of travel.

[[deleted user]]

European Championship is on right now, so my husband will get to watch a few games while we are there! Were you in the service? Where did you live in Germany? We never meet anyone from the US familiar with the North, where the British section was.

[[deleted user]]

I just read two more chapters: 10 & 11. They were much better than the prior chapters.

[Marialyce]

Jeannette wrote: "I just read two more chapters: 10 & 11. They were much better than the prior chapters."

Oh good....yes, it does pick up...

[Marialyce]

Geevee wrote: "Jemidar wrote: "GeeVee, for me it's not that whole Victorian thing that is getting me because I expected that and enjoy other Victorian writers. Wilkie Collins for one can write a page turner. It's..."

Sorry to horn in Geevee, but I have fairly recently finished Collins No Name and loved it. I also read his The Woman in White and The Moonstone which were also quite good but for some reason No Name blew me away.

[Geevee]

Jeannette wrote: "European Championship is on right now, so my husband will get to watch a few games while we are there! Were you in the service? Where did you live in Germany? We never meet anyone from the US fa..."

My regiment was based in Munster Jeannette and we had a short tour in Berlin (great but damned cold) plus normal stints along the East/West border and the usual exercises across northern West Germany. I would happily live in Germany again, as some of the guys I served with now do, but couldn't persuade my wife.

[Jemidar]

Geevee wrote: "Jemidar I will achieve my aim through this group read of finishing a Dickens, but I don't think I shall rush to read another. If I were to try Wilkie Collins what would you suggest as a first - The Moonstone looks like it might suit me. "

That's my aim too GV to finally finish a Dickens novel! But like you I'm not sure I'll be rushing out to read another.

I've only read Wilkie's The Woman in White and liked it, a lot. It also had the typical "wet" Victorian hero and heroine but had a couple of other marvelous characters who stole the show and had a style that once you got into it kept the pages turning. I've also heard The Moonstone is very good and intend to read it myself, hopefully soon. It's been sitting on Mt TBR since July last year.

[[deleted user]]

I adore the Moonstone. Have read it several times. It drags a bit in the middle, but not so as you'd notice overly much.

The Woman in White was good too, but not as good, IMHO.

[[deleted user]]

I third The Moonstone. I thought it had a better pace than The Woman in White. I want to read more of Collins one of these days.

[[deleted user]]

Geevee wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "European Championship is on right now, so my husband will get to watch a few games while we are there! Were you in the service? Where did you live in Germany? We never meet any..."

SW of Osnabruck -- my in-laws are in Hildesheim, just south of Hannover. Germany is nice in many ways, but I can understand your wife's feelings, too. I felt it was easier for me to raise our daughter in the US.

[Kim]

Marialyce wrote: "I have fairly recently finished Collins No Name and loved it. I also read his The Woman in White and The Moonstone which were also quite good but for some reason No Name blew me away...."

I really like both The Woman in White and The Moonstone, but I haven't read any others. I will add No Name to my list.

[Kim]

I finished Book II this morning and I've started on Book III. Listening to a well-narrated audiobook has helped me enjoy the book more than I might otherwise have done. That said, I think it's getting better. The account of the storming of the Bastille was quite chilling and Book III has started well. Dickens is certainly verbose and the characters are a bit flat, but he could tell a story. I don't think I'm going to love this novel as much as much as I loved Bleak House, but I suspect it will rate higher than Great Expectations. I'm not going to be dissuaded from reading some more of Dickens' work at some stage. (Maybe not very soon, but some day .....)

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Geevee, I've read both The Moonstone and The Woman in White. Either of these are good introductions to him and are his most popular works. The latter has more of a gothic feel where the first is more a genuine mystery. No surprise since Collins is considered the one to give us the modern mystery as we know them today. Although Moonstone, as mentioned earlier gets a bit slow in places that would probably be a better fit for you. It's funny all this talk of Collins, I just got two more of his books in the last week, The Haunted Hotel and A Rogue's Life, and have now added No Name.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

I'm at chapter XXI, the last two chapters were rather slow and Lucie got more perfect in her sweetness. It seems all of us are having problems with the pacing. But no one else had difficulties with chapters 7 - 9, mentioned in message 67?

[[deleted user]]

The names didn't bother me, but the descriptions of all of those "important" people was a bit much. I liked the part with the knife in the heart -- it made it worth slogging through all the Gorgon stuff! lol

[Jemidar]

Kim wrote: "I don't think I'm going to love this novel as much as much as I loved Bleak House, but I suspect it will rate higher than Great Expectations. I'm not going to be dissuaded from reading some more of Dickens' work at some stage. (Maybe not very soon, but some day .....) "

Because a few people I know love Bleak House, if I ever feel inclined to read another Dickens novel that would be it. I'm thinking I might at some stage in the very far off future because from what I've been reading AToTC isn't typical of Dickens so maybe not the best book to judge him by. However, I'm 100% certain I'll never touch Oliver Twist, David Copperfield or Great Expectations (the novels I was set at school and uni but was unable to finish) ever again!

[Sylvia]

Jemidar wrote: "Kim wrote: "I don't think I'm going to love this novel as much as much as I loved Bleak House, but I suspect it will rate higher than Great Expectations. I'm not going to be dissuaded from reading ..."

You should try Oliver Twist, David Copperfield and Great Expectations. They are different from AToTC. I love Oliver Twist and it was much easier to read that AToTC.

[Kim]

Sylvia, I prefer the musical "Oliver" to the book on which it is based and like Jemidar I didn't like Great Expectations when I read it at school. One of these days I may read both novels again to see if my taste has changed with time. I vaguely feel that I should be interested in Great Expectations because Eliza Donnithorne, who once lived nearby and is buried in a local churchyard, may be the person on whom Miss Havisham is based. Maybe I'll try David Copperfield one day too. Overall, though, I prefer Victorian women writers such as Elizabeth Gaskell and George Eliot to the men!

[Jemidar]

Sylvia wrote: "You should try Oliver Twist, David Copperfield and Great Expectations. They are different from AToTC. I love Oliver Twist and it was much easier to read that AToTC. "

Sylvia, I have tried all three of them and couldn't get through them. They were DNF for me. I didn't even like the movie of Great Expectations so I thought I was done with Dickens for life.

However, I've been interested in reading AToTC for a couple of years now because it was set in the French Revolution and am determined to finish it so I can say I have read at least one Dickens cover to cover. But if I do get to the end of this one it will mostly because of the support of my GR friends and not because I developed a fondness for Dickens!

I probably won't ever try another Dickens but if I do it will Bleak House because it comes recommended by people who's book taste I respect. I think it will be BH or none, and at the moment I'm probably leaning more towards none ;-).