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Enemies
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY - GOVERNMENT
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ARCHIVE - 2. ENEMIES: A HISTORY OF THE FBI - CHAPTERS FIVE - EIGHT (33 - 70) ~ June 11th - June 17th; No Spoilers, Please
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As mentioned in previous discussion comments on this thread about Hoover being manipulative yet charismatic, I know many people in business and politics today who always seems to move up the ladder and stay clear of scandals, even though they are some of the biggest scumbags I've ever met. Despite their own personal flaws, there is a certain amount of charisma they have that makes them very persuasive. I've seen it in action both in politics and in corporations. Personally, it makes me sick. I have a feeling that if I were a member of Congress during the years of chapters 4-8, Hoover and I would be at odds. Yet he seems to have the charm that would make him the winner of every political battle we faced and I would lose. He's one of those guys who you love to admire for his charisma but hate because of the tactics he uses.
Jeffrey, we have probably worked with the same people ! At one time in my life as I started college, I really wanted to be an FBI agent. It was my career goal and after a short period of time I was well on my way to achieving it. I went in with the total wide eyed notion that if someone was in trouble with the police, they must have done something wrong. As I grew older and undertook some life experiences I realized there were a lot of different people in law enforcement some of amazing character and some were low class bullies. I also began to see just how these two internal character types equaled a product that could be easily manipulated.
Time and attempts at an open mind have changed me a great deal and after a short period, made my career decisions much different. I still retain a deep respect for the work law enforcement does, but I also now carry the knowledge that the instincts of even high quality agents are often at odds with freedom. These chapters are assisting me with my thoughts on why I made the decision to leave law enforcement years ago.
In my opinion members of Congress today would prevent Hoover from having the powers he did during the years of chapters 4-8. Hoover may have been intelligent, charismatic and extremely convincing at times, but the public, media and executive office are aware now of the dangers in giving too much power to intelligence divisions of government. In other words, Hoover's tactics were accepted at the time because of the lack of historical precedent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive and and am aware that the FBI and CIA sometimes use tactics considered unacceptable to many U.S. citizens. However, such tactics are hidden from view precisely because they wouldn't be accepted as they were during the time of Hoover's reign.
Jeffrey wrote: "Even though I've spent many years studying the presidency, I have to admit that I never really spent much time examining the Harding Administration, because of the short time that Harding was in of..."I think Harding is worthy of research. Shame not more looked at this administration.
The unsurpassed classic book on Harding is The Shadow of Blooming Grove by Francis Russell.http://www.amazon.com/The-Shadow-Bloo...
Rodney wrote: "Jeffrey, we have probably worked with the same people ! At one time in my life as I started college, I really wanted to be an FBI agent. It was my career goal and after a short period of time I..."
Thanks guys. Charisma is powerful
Cynthia wrote: "In my opinion members of Congress today would prevent Hoover from having the powers he did during the years of chapters 4-8. Hoover may have been intelligent, charismatic and extremely convincing a..."Yes, Hoover did know most of his work in secret because he knew it was illegal.
Tim wrote: "The unsurpassed classic book on Harding is The Shadow of Blooming Grove by Francis Russell.http://www.amazon.com/The-Shadow-Bloo..."
Thanks Tim. Really appreciate the recommendation.
Good readers: I await you in the Q and A section. Your faithful author, Tim Weiner
Great commentary here. In reading this, one this is for sure, Hoover was a survivor. Some was luck in the FDR case, but his work ethic and being placed as the face against crime certainly helped his cause. Very enjoyable read so far.
Thanks, Bentley and Jeffrey. Harding seemed to be over his head with the presidency.
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Bentley wrote: "Harding always seems to get bad reviews as a president although some later historians are giving him some points for his conservative financial policies but it does seem he is way over his head."Indeed, Bentley, and getting a peace treaty with the Germans, and naval disarmament. It wasn't all a nightmare. You also get a sense he didn't love being president, and that makes a difference, too, I think.
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It's interesting that Hoover's reputation didn't suffer when Palmer's fortunes declined. Sure, he was able to deny any involvement in the raids, but as head of the Justice Department's General Intelligence Division, you'd think he would have been held accountable, to some degree, for all the erroneous information that led to all the false arrests. Not to mention the fact that he was always appearing with Palmer in public—but this may just be my perception of things, filtered as it is through a lifetime of exposure to the kind of mass media that didn't exist back then.
Indeed, Phil, he should have been fired. It just goes to show you how good Hoover is about keeping his job and playing politics. AG Harlan Stone gave him a shot, mainly I think from fake promises and smooth talking.I also see Hoover playing the press very well by pushing out documents about the Communist threat, etc. Well played.
Bryan wrote: "Indeed, Phil, he should have been fired. It just goes to show you how good Hoover is about keeping his job and playing politics. AG Harlan Stone gave him a shot, mainly I think from fake promises..."I just wonder if the reason behind Hoover's ability to stay in office had more to do with the fact that he actually had enough information on his superiors to ruin their careers. His knowing where the bodies are buried and the fact that those in power understood explicitly that he was not above using this information to his advantage. Hoover was a ruthless man. I believe he would go to any lengths to further his cause. His ego only allowed him to see one side of an issue. He was so dedicated to his belief in what America should be like was maniacal.
Clayton, I think this is part of it. I think he also would use the files to get into someone's good graces, a kind of "hey, look what I got" approach.
I agree with you. Hoover was a man who I think believed in the principle that what ever the means it will justify the end result. He just had his own result in mind and not necessarily one that was a right one or one that was correct for all the country.
Very true. Fortunately (or unfortunately) he could back himself up with amazing skill in manipulating any person he needed to put off his trail in order to continue his work, along with some unexpected and somewhat breath-taking luck; one example - Wilson being nearly comatose.
So, true Virginia, Hoover does have amazing skills of manipulation.
As others have noted, the description of Harding as a President is not very flattering. It sounds like he was running a frat house and not the White House! I don't know much about him at all but now am curious to know more. The shroud of secrecy that Hoover operated in really came out to me in these early chapters. The secret files - wow.
Yeah, Harding is still seen as a corrupt, weak president.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Shadow of Blooming Grove: Warren G. Harding in His Times (other topics)Enemies: A History of the FBI (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Francis Russell (other topics)Tim Weiner (other topics)
Also, the birth of the ACLU in the 1920s and Hoover's continual spying on the organization was also new information. I'm really learning a lot through this book. I'm very impressed so far.