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Editing Question
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As with my reading and writing, I edit as I can make/find the time. I have little control over when I must take the next break. The real trick is in recognising that a moment has arrived and choosing to take up the edit rather than some other action. With regards to word count, as I work by scene, the next '***' marks where to end, not some specific number.
I find I have to leave a significant amount of time between writing and editing, or I simply do not see the problems in the ms. The longer I leave it, though, the more I want to change when I come to editing. You have to learn the trade-off: how much time do you have before deadline, and how much are you willing to second-guess your own abilities?
I find editing to be ongoing and never perfect. It's just a matter of when you feel you can live with what you've edited. WheneverI come back and review what Ive written, I'm editing, always finding something.Editing is never finishd and you have to decide when enogh's enough. Time is uually a factor.
I'll go with Hemingway on this: "Write drunk; edit sober." It's always sounded like pretty sound advice to me. Especially after I've had a couple of drinks.
I agree with Scott’s comment that time is needed between draft and edit, or from edit to edit.A fun way to burn this time is to use test readers. Recruit two or three and let them go. Complete strangers at restaurants and coffee shops with their nose in a book are often great test readers. My lead in question is, “Hey, wat’cha reading?”
Conversation ensues. Then I describe my project and ask if they would take a look. “I only want to know what sucks,” I say. “Be brutal.”
Of course, friends of friends can work well too. Family is the worst. They don’t want to hurt feelings and ‘love’ everything. Even so, they might catch a typo…
I agree about leaving time between writing and editing. My way of giving myself enough time is to write something else. I'll write a rough draft, put it down and then write another rough draft of a different novel. Then I'll come back to the first one and edit it. The downside is that it's taken me years to get something close to finished that way. The upsides are: One, editing is a lot easier and I find more mistakes. Two, now that I have something close to being published I have several more on the way.
I also use a ton of beta-readers, as many as I can find. The other tip is that I read my stuff out loud, which catches a lot of mistakes and forces you to edit slower.
I can't edit.I agree that reading out loud helps. I read some of my stories to my wife and it helped me not just deal with dropped words but also repetition and the like. But short of that I can spend 3 months editing something and catch maybe 10% of the mistakes that others catch on a cold read.
The best editing is done by someone else.
Rob,"The best editing is done by someone else."
I couldn't agree more -- or at least the best proofreading.
Choosing an editor is a bit like choosing a therapist. One must do it VERY carefully.
Russell
Russell wrote: "Rob,"The best editing is done by someone else."
I couldn't agree more -- or at least the best proofreading.
Choosing an editor is a bit like choosing a therapist. One must do it VERY carefully..."
I couldn't agree more. I have actually just written a small article with one of my authors on this subject (will be published soon). There is so much that goes into finding that perfect balance in the editor/author relationship. There are a lot of freelance editors out there, and some don't charge that much.
Publishing an unedited or self-edited book is one issue that has led to indie publishing being looked down upon as "lesser."
I agree with so much of what was stated above. To it I would add, download Natural Reader software and have it read your story back to you through a set of headphones, chapter by chapter. It's FREE. It is amazing how many times your eyes can go over the same mistake and not see it.Because it's software, it won't mistake 'though' for 'through' or 'barley' for 'barely'. It's also good to hear which parts sound awkward and might need revising, or where words are missing that your brain fills in every time you read a particular passage. You know what you intended to say. The software doesn't, so it will read back precisely what's there.
Editing is hell, but it's also the place where rocks become gems.
Rachel wrote: "I also use a ton of beta-readers, as many as I can find. The other tip is that I read my stuff out loud, which catches a lot of mistakes and forces you to edit slower."This may be a stupid question but what is a beta reader?
Christine
I do a one time read through on my manuscript. I correct what I can find, but it's difficult because knowing in advance what "it's suppose to say" will definitely throw rose colored glasses on you. I never spit and polish my own books. Never. I also found that a proof copy of my book will catch even more. It's much easier to see errors in book form. I work with an editor and we go chapter by chapter. Being alert and awake is a must.
Beta = pre-release. Beta readers read your rough manuscript and then come back with comments and questions. It's incredibly helpful especially if you have other writers in your circle, they are harder but more specific in their advice.
Russell wrote: "Rob,"The best editing is done by someone else."
I couldn't agree more -- or at least the best proofreading.
Choosing an editor is a bit like choosing a therapist. One must do it VERY carefully..."
And I could not disagree more.
The best editing for MY work is done by ME.
Many "editors" (especially the "lower priced" ones accessible to "indie writers") merely run the project through a grammar and spell check program, then perhaps a quick "glance over," then tell the writer "it's done,$300 please."
"Editors" like this left a writer friend of mine with an OMITTED word in the first TWO paragraphs of Chapter ONE, you know, the part that shows up in the preview of your work, that everybody sees?
Short story is this:
Don't know how to edit? Can't be bothered?
LEARN.
Until your books are selling many tens of thousands, you will not be able to spend the thousands of dollars that a proper editor would cost you.
So until that time . . .
the BEST editor for your work . . .
is YOU.
I am as careful with the work of others as I am with my own. I hold little faith in automated spell and grammar checking programs, for the obvious reasons that they cannot think for the writer, nor discern the difference between a misspelled word, and an omitted or blatantly incorrect one.
http://www.johndavidauthor.com/Editin...
John wrote: "The best editing for MY work is done by ME. "I would disagree. Authors get too close to their works, often times missing things that an editor will catch. It's the distance between writer and the work that is hard for an author to retain while editing their own piece.
As for your friend, perhaps he should have screened his editor better before contracting them. Maybe I'm in the minority (I'd like to think not), but I've never relied on spell/grammar and spend hours going through manuscripts when I edit, and I do work with indie authors and would probably be considered "lower priced." I request to do a test page before agreeing to work with an author, so that they can see my quality of work and I theirs, as well.
Perhaps what I'm trying to say is, there should be a screening process between author and editor to ensure a quality product.
When I first started writing, I plowed through my novels and then went back to edit the suckers. Writing novel=four months, editing novel=six months. Now I edit every two chapters or so as I go. The other was just became too grueling. :)
The advantage of a Beta-Read (as in Beta Test for software) isn't so much for editing as much as it for the "how does this scene hit you?" kind of feed back. It's getting the advice when you're halfway through a novel that one of your heroines is still horribly unlike-able and people are going to hope she dies by the end if you don't make some changes. It's looking at your somber moment of reflection in chapter 30 and having someone say "dude... that scene was hilarious!" What I have found in my very very limited data set is that people who agree to Beta read often don't catch typoes, slips of grammar or sometimes even dropped words. Which is okay, they're not looking for that. They're just telling you "I liked" or "I didn't like."
As to the editing, I think there is a wide range of qualities for dedicated editors and agree wholeheartedly that if someone is just doing a spell/ grammar check in MSWord that it's not worth the fee.
However, the more I read and re-read and re-re-read the same manuscripts, the less I'm able to see my writing. I practically have the entirety of my novel and most of my short stories memorized by now I've re-read them so many times. But I still have stuff that gets past me; stuff that I wrote and had perfect in my head and then dropped a word when it hit the page.
And no matter how many times I edit it, my brain continues to supply that missing word for me so it's not going to be until a third party hits the page that it will ever get caught.
I think the best solution is to, as stated above, to vet your editors well. Send them the first few pages, ask them for a sample edit job, and then see what you get. It helps to do some of the heavy lifting yourself, but I still maintain that writers rarely make good editors of their own work.
Rob wrote: "The advantage of a Beta-Read (as in Beta Test for software) isn't so much for editing as much as it for the "how does this scene hit you?" kind of feed back. It's getting the advice when you're ha..."Agreed! Well said. :)
Agreed, agreed and agreed:Beta Readers are best for catching stuff like, how does this character come across, did this scene work or not?
For content editing the best editor is yourself. Wait awhile until the story grows cold in your mind and re-read it critically. You can quickly spot things like, the story would be better if I explained why this character hates the main character, or I need to change the rationale for ...
For typos and grammar you need someone else's help. After a while you just don't see them anymore and the more you pour over the manuscript the worse the problem becomes.
Tricia wrote: Publishing an unedited or self-edited book is one issue that has lead to indie publishing being looked down upon as "lesser..."
Shouldn't 'lead' be 'led'? ;)
I find mistakes everywhere, indie and otherwise. Yes, even in books published by Houghton Mifflin.
(It's a curse. When I go antiquing, my friends hand me an item and ask me to look it over and tell them what's wrong with it.)
Shouldn't 'lead' be 'led'? ;)
I find mistakes everywhere, indie and otherwise. Yes, even in books published by Houghton Mifflin.
(It's a curse. When I go antiquing, my friends hand me an item and ask me to look it over and tell them what's wrong with it.)
Diana wrote: "Tricia wrote: Publishing an unedited or self-edited book is one issue that has lead to indie publishing being looked down upon as "lesser..." Shouldn't 'lead' be 'led'? ;)
I find mistakes every..."
Gah, it should be! See, even editors need editors when they become authors! :)
Hi Elle,Editing for me is working until I feel like my eyes are crossing or my mind isn't functioning. It's good to take breaks to clear your thoughts and to stretch tired muscles.
Editing is like therapy. Your ability to provide it to yourself is compromised, no matter how good a therapist you are. Then again, there's no substitute for having the skill yourself . . . because you're always there.
And the price is right.
I have problems with the idea of Beta readers and Editors.Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family. Usually NOBODY replies. When I pin one of them down, and by this time it may be months later, they go:
THEM 'Oh, er ... I liked the bit with the dog.'
ME (through gritted teeth) 'There wasn't a bit with a dog!'
THEM 'Wasn't there? Oh well, it was good anyway, I liked it.'
Totally useless as an independent review. And also they never respond in time if I have a deadline such as 'I need to get this on the market in time for Christmas'.
Editors:
Having seen the prices that are quoted by people suggesting the use of editors, I remain sceptical about using one. At the rate my books are selling (the market seems to have slumped this year) I reckon it would take about ten years royalties of all my six books to pay for the editing of just one manuscript. It's just not economically viable for a new author unless they are independently funded. So I have to do it myself.
Here are a few tips I've picked up from reading all the forums:
Always use your spell checker. Although some people advocate turning it off, you might as well let it pick up on some errors you might otherwise miss.
When you think the manuscript is finished, print it out and check it manually by going through it BACKWARDS. Either word by word or line by line. it avoids you getting caught up in the narrative and having your brain fill in the missing words because you are following the story.
If, like me, you have a talking Kindle, convert your manuscript to the correct format and copy it to your Kindle. Then have the Kindle read the story to you out loud while you read along on the screen. Once again I find it stops the brain 'filling in the blanks' so to speak. If you don't have a talking Kindle, there are PDF programs (like Adobe)that will read a PDF to you.
Practice, practice, practice. When using the written word in everyday life, stop using slang, abbreviations, TLA's (Three Letter Abbreviations) such as WTF OMG LOL or Text Speak such as 'U R GR8T'. Use real words and proper punctuation! It will stop you unconsciously using such bad habits when you write books and stories.
Rufus
Tony wrote: "I have problems with the idea of Beta readers and Editors.
Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family. Usually NOBODY repli..."
Good suggestions.
I also have a list of words or phrases that I foul up on a regular basis, whether with homonyms or just plain misstatements. I do a document search for them.
When did your friends start reviewing my books? I swear I've had the same discussions with them... ;D
Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family. Usually NOBODY repli..."
Good suggestions.
I also have a list of words or phrases that I foul up on a regular basis, whether with homonyms or just plain misstatements. I do a document search for them.
When did your friends start reviewing my books? I swear I've had the same discussions with them... ;D
Auto Crit is good for the a quick run though. Catches repeats and phrases over used.
Tony wrote: "I have problems with the idea of Beta readers and Editors.Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family.
Usually NOBODY repli..."
Tony, excellent advice on editing. you've covered the bases and they should be taken to heart. The good part is the next step (if you go that far) after your book is published; the screenplay. If it's successful, so many people will be changing it anyway that all editing required will be taken care of in the end without you sweating it so much.
Tony wrote: "I have problems with the idea of Beta readers and Editors.
Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family. Usually NOBODY repli..."
Yeah, contacting friends and family to beta read can be tough. You need to know that someone will read it for you and actually ~read~ it. Part of that comes down to communication, ie telling them how important their opinion is. The other part is in the solicitation of the readers. For my Beta's I've point blank said "I want to find beta readers" and I've been comfortable saying up front what my time schedules are and asking "can you do that?" In the case of "No", then I thank them and move on.Not everyone's a good beta, and the key, I think, is to not force it on anyone.
Tony: you are write that it's hard to get friends and family to do a decent beta-read. Not only do they often not get back to you, but they are usually too polite to give any solid criticism. I find most of my best beta-readers from literary groups and writing groups. They have a better understanding what you are asking of them and are more honest and specific in their opinions. It's hard to find good beta-readers but I think its well worth it.
Hm. I'll rent out my family for a fee. They are brutally honest, fairly fast (though a little nagging is often necessary) extremely perceptive, and quite argumentive. They make you *think* about why something should be so.
Example: I have a character use the term 'nincompoop' in an historical novel. The term is an old one and has two possible origins, all of which are quite old and not tied in to any technical advancements of the recent past. But they sounded odd.
I argued, argued some more, explained the origin, the fact tht it expressed things well, and so on.
The word is now out of my manuscript.
so, let me work out an hourly fee for them and a referral fee for me, and we're in business.
But don your chain mail and your flame-proof suits. They're suportive and perceptive, but they don't mince words if they think something stinks.
Example: I have a character use the term 'nincompoop' in an historical novel. The term is an old one and has two possible origins, all of which are quite old and not tied in to any technical advancements of the recent past. But they sounded odd.
I argued, argued some more, explained the origin, the fact tht it expressed things well, and so on.
The word is now out of my manuscript.
so, let me work out an hourly fee for them and a referral fee for me, and we're in business.
But don your chain mail and your flame-proof suits. They're suportive and perceptive, but they don't mince words if they think something stinks.
Boyfriend: “It’s good. I like the part about the cats.”Me: “What cats?”
Boyfriend: “Wasn’t there something about cats?”
Me: “No.”
So, where do you guys find these literary groups and writing groups?
Diana wrote: "Hm. I'll rent out my family for a fee. They are brutally honest, fairly fast (though a little nagging is often necessary) extremely perceptive, and quite argumentive. They make you *think* about..."Nincompoop. I certainly am familiar with that word and remember it being in fairly common usage when I was growing up (yes, I'm from that generation). I would have left it in.
I once deliberately put in a 'posh' word because it amused me to use it, and then I put in brackets after it, (Well, look it up). Mine however are humourous novels so I can get away with that sort of thing.
While I don't advocate deliberately putting in long words to make yourself sound clever, you shouldn't shy away from using words that anyone with a decent standard of education should understand. And if like me, I come across a word I don't know then I am happy to look it up. After all, books ARE meant to be educational.
Gerald wrote: "Tony wrote: "I have problems with the idea of Beta readers and Editors.Beta readers:
When I consider a novel ready to go to print, I send the manuscript out to all my friends and family.
Usual..."
I am toying with the idea of converting my books to screenplays and also Audiobooks. Of course with both of those the spelling doesn't have to be perfect.
(And after screenplays, graphic novels, video games, cartoon versions, lunchboxes, stuffed toys that read the books out loud ... what's that? Sorry, must go, reality is knocking at the door.)
Tony wrote: "Nincompoop. I certainly am familiar with that word and remember it being in fairly common usage when I was growing up (yes, I'm from that generation). I would have left it in.
..."
The problem is that it was used by a high-ranking priest in a novel set in 1280 BC ancient Egypt. It comes from 'non compos mentis', and I'm sure they had a word for it in that (now defunct) language, but it did sound a little odd...
..."
The problem is that it was used by a high-ranking priest in a novel set in 1280 BC ancient Egypt. It comes from 'non compos mentis', and I'm sure they had a word for it in that (now defunct) language, but it did sound a little odd...
Deb wrote: "Boyfriend: “It’s good. I like the part about the cats.”Me: “What cats?”
Boyfriend: “Wasn’t there something about cats?”
Me: “No.”
So, where do you guys find these literary groups and writing groups?"
Bookstores, particularly independent book stores often have writing groups. The local library might as well. If you have a special area there might be other places to find a group. (for instance I write mostly LGBT YA books, and I attend a book club at the local pride center.) If there isn't a group in your area there are lots of online groups. I have gotten beta readers by discussing writing here on GoodReads.
Rachel
In fact I read and write YA, LGBT fiction, Fantasy (most sub genres),science fiction, a little bit of everything. If anyone wants to trade beta-reads or critiques send me a PM about your project. Rachel
I just joined RWA, Romance Writers of America. They have all these different chapters you can join depending on your chosen genre', and trust me folks, it's not all about just the romance.
I've been MIA here on goodreads (still love you guys and I lurk from time-to-time) but I signed up for a month-long Editing workshop by Lynn Johnston in the Fantasy, Futuristic, and Paranormal chapter, and WOW, I've learned tons about editing.
Check it out. It's a great writing community.
Paula
Edit by scene, Elle.That's what seems to work for me. How long are your scenes?
Paula
I usually do a majority of my editing after the first draft. While writing the first draft I don't want to worry how clear everything sounds, i just want to get the story down. After a few months pass I go through my first major edits of the book, until I feel it's ready to be seen by other people. They catch everything I haven't seen, give me feedback and anything else i need, and then I do one more draft of edits using their advice. I like being extremely thorough when editing, and I think advice from a reader is more important than someone who cares more about grammar (though that is also important, just not AS important, to me).
I tend to make the same mistakes over and over when I get tired, so I edit those out before passing the ms to an editing pro.
Since I am currently in editing hell with my first novel, I would love any other editing advice.