[F2F Book Discussions] June 2012: J.R.R. Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring. Moderator: Maria

[K.D.]

Oo nga, kayo na ni Jzhun!!! :)

[Apokripos]

Angus wrote: "The Law of Us and Them: Readers choose the degree to which they identify with characters."

Based on this, uma-agree ka rin pala sa "kailangan akong maka-relate" na opinyon ni Kuya D. :D

[K.D.]

Ewan ko ba dyan. Ang pagbabasa ay "connecting" with the brain of the author. Parang wireless yan eh. So, kailangan "relate." Basta meron, relate, ganda istorya di ba?

[Apokripos]

Agree!

Sabi ko nga sa intro sa blog "If [a book] reaches for utter humanity, in jest or ernest, I'm going to like it."

[Angus]

Jzhun, not exactly, what I'm agreeing with is Maria's statement that "relatability" is debatable. Kasi nga diba, sabi ng law, readers can choose. So I can set my identification level to zero degrees, at si KD kahit Fahrenheit 451 pa, bahala na siya. (RIP, Ray Bradbury).

KD, para sa akin, ang pagbabasa ay isang conversation. Hindi porke nakikipag-usap ka ay nakiki-"relate" ka na. Maaaring nakikidebate o humahanga, pero relate? Pweh!

[K.D.]

Juicekoh kung makadura parang tinamaan ako. *wiping*

[Maria]

What do you think of Tolkien's concept of The Old Forest (Chapter 6)? Is his painting of the old forest as foreboding and menacing effective to you as a reader?

What of the tale surrounding the Great Willow? Did you like it? :)

i love this chapter (together with Chapter 7 - Tom Bobadil)!

[K.D.]

I love the old forest. Yes, it's like showing the place before it gets changed. Middle-Earth is an enchanted place and J.R.R. Tolkien, who was born in South Africa, was in touch with nature. In this book, trees represent nature. In Book 2, there is (view spoiler)[Fangorn where the old trees (about 12 meters high) called Ents walk and talk. (hide spoiler)] Here, the trees seem to just contented by listening and watching (and teasing) the hobbits.

Tom Bombadil and the tale of the Great Willow. I love them both. Kaso, nawala sila sa sine.

[Angus]

I like this chapter too, although there's something deus ex machina-ish about it (Tom Bombadil "chancing" about the area). He's either lying or Frodo is just as lucky as a hobbit could get.

The Old Forest reminds me of that 80s film The Labyrinth (David Bowie?). I also remember being scared by it, hahaha.

[K.D.]

I love forests! I got lost in a forest with my dad and brothers when I was a young boy. That was the only time I saw my father worried about our safety. Di na namin matandaan ang daan pauwi hak hak.

Like Angus, Tom Bombadil is a big puzzle for me but for a different reason. (view spoiler)[He is the only one who has been said not to be immune from the power the ring. So, why was it that he was not considered by Gandalf to be the ringbearer? Or is my thinking correct that the ring chooses where it wants to go? So, can somebody tell me why it went to:

Isidur - because he killed Sauron by biting his finger
Deagul/Smeagol - why?
Bilbo - for many years, why?
Frodo - because of Gandalf
Sam - why? (I mean the ring could have gone with the Orcs and so it will go straight to Sauron, right? Just like Frodo's clothes)
Gollum - before it fell to the Great Fire. (hide spoiler)]

[Charles]

K.D. wrote: Tom Bombadil is a puzzle for me.

(view spoiler)[Bombadil wasn't chosen because he can't be manipulated by Gandalf. In many ways, he's apathetic, or has what we might call ADD. He might be interested in doing something for a time but won't follow through, especially for a long quest such as the destruction of the ring. And Bombadil presumably has his own agenda.

It's not so much that the ring chooses where to go, but it does exert some (corrupting) influence on its wielder. It's patterned after Richard Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. Some people are more corrupted easily than others. Boromir for example was easily swayed due to sheer proximity. Frodo and Bilbo's corruption took longer. They won't "act out of character" (hence why they suddenly won't return the ring to Sautron), but it does take advantage of your darker desires, bringing out the worst in you.

It went to Smeagol and Bilbo by chance (wrong place at the right time).

Sam had brief exposure to the ring so he wasn't corrupted immediately, especially when you consider his hobbit (i.e. carefree) nature. (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Like I said before, I was listening to the audio copy while reading this, so I did understand the fear the Hobbits felt while traversing through the Old Forest. And yes, for me, it was foreboding and effective.

"The ground was rising steadily, and as they went forward it seemed that the trees became taller, darker, and thicker. There was no sound, except an occasional drip of moisture falling through the still leaves. For the moment there was nowhispering or movement among the branches; but they all got an uncomfortable feeling that they were being watched with disapproval, deepening to dislike and even enmity. The feeling steadily grew, until they found themselves looking up quickly, or glancing back over their shoulders, as if they expected a sudden blow."

In history, the Old Forest attacked Buckland by planting themselves near the Hedge, where the Hobbits farm. The Hobbits then made a clearing by bonfire. After that, the trees became much more unfriendly to the Hobbits. Enmity was already present.

The Old Man Willow is one of the trees corrupted by anger due to the encroachment and violation of both Elves and Men.

Ako, I salute Tolkein kasi even in his time his wisdom was admirable- that if we don't take care and respect Nature, Nature will not favor us. And now, in present time, we experience the effects of that.

The symbolism behind Tom Bombadil's singing to the tree is something to take note of. I don't mean that we should sing to the trees ha! But we sing to those we love, di ba? So let us love our trees.

Ngek, ang haba na! Syensa na.

[K.D.]

Charles: Thanks. Don't you ever absent yourself on the 23rd. Very convincing answers! You already hak hak.

Louize: You too. Kahit audio na, intinditong intindido pa rin ah. :)

[Monique]

Nakupo. Kailangan ko yatang magre-read kung pupunta ako sa F2F6. Baka matameme ako 'pag wala akong naalala, parang si Angus nung F2F1. :))

[K.D.]

Okay lang yan, Monique. Wala namang magagalit sa yo. Parang ako lang noong F2F5 hak hak. Parang wala akong masabi. Pero maganda rin kung mare-reread mo kasi alam ko ikaw ay isang original Tolkien fan. Ganda nya kasi!

[Angus]

Buddy: Just scan the book, the details might resurface that way. :D

[Tricia]

In fairness naman kay Tolkien, sa pagkakadescribe niya sa nature e very beautiful. Actually, I tend to ignore and overlook the beauty of nature pero at least now, I appreciate it :)

Old Forrest. I find it funny how the hobbits don't know about their world (e kasi naman mahirap naman talaga tumira sa Middle Earth). Yung tipong naniniwala lang sa kwento, myths, and folklores. Ang ganda lang ng message kasi it makes me get out of my comfort zone. Explore. Learn something new. Risk.

[Apokripos]

Tricia wrote: "Yung tipong naniniwala lang sa kwento, myths, and folklores. Ang ganda lang ng message kasi it makes me get out of my comfort zone. Explore. Learn something new. Risk."

Agree. Considering that Frodo and the gang live such a sheltered life. Intimidated kasi ang hobbits to what the real world or Middle-Earth is outside Hobbiton.
Even so, inherent pa rin (lalo na sa Took side, a clan of hobbits) ang mag-explore at journey. :)

[K.D.]

Tama. Confined sila sa Shire. Parang takot silang iwan ang comfort zone nila. Actually, siguro rin kasi nga maliliit sila tapos among the different races ang hobbits lang ang walang power or special skills. Mahilig lang kumanta, magsaya, magsigarilyo, maginuman at KUMAIN!!!

[Tricia]

And hindi din sila kilala ng ibang creatures! Take for example si Treebeard. Akala nila from tales and songs lang sila.

I think kakaibang hobbit si Bilbo kasi siya lang ang mahilig magjourney and no other hobbits bothered na samahan siya with his adventures.

[Apokripos]

Tricia wrote: "I think kakaibang hobbit si Bilbo kasi siya lang ang mahilig magjourney and no other hobbits bothered na samahan siya with his adventures."

In relation to this, I think I've questioned myself long enough as to why is it out of hundereds of hobbits, did Gandalf chose Bilbo to undertook the journey to Lonely Mountain considering that in the first place there's nothing special about him, nor is he actually a thief?

Kasi, sa Felloship of the Ring alam ng reader why Frodo agreed to take Ring to Rivendell because it is a part of the inheritance that Bilbo bequethed to him, and then eventually as the Ring Bearer journeying to Mordor to destroy it.

[K.D.]

Tomo, Tricia. Akala ni Treebeard eh young orcs sila hak hak. Kasi nga di sila gumagala. Pero sabi nga ni Professor Jzhun yong Took side (Peregrine "Pippin" Took) ng family eh adventurous. Tsaka sa "The Hobbit" may taga-highland, lowland at middle. Parang nare-recall ko pa. Siguro depende rin sa lugar nila?

[Apokripos]

K.D. wrote: "Parang nare-recall ko pa. Siguro depende rin sa lugar nila?"

I think in Tolkien mentioned in the Prologue the various kinds of Hobbitses. :D

[Tricia]

Jzhun, now that you've mentioned it, I wonder din why Bilbo? Maybe because The Ring chose him? Saka why Frodo have to be the Ringbearer and not Bilbo? I mean, kaya niya naman di ba? Hehe

Oo, may ibang hobbits in other places nga but why from The Shire? At THE Shire talaga.

[Tricia]

Natawa naman ako pagkakadescribe kay Frodo: "From the Ugly Duckling to Frodo."

[Apokripos]

Tricia wrote: "Saka why Frodo have to be the Ringbearer and not Bilbo? I mean, kaya niya naman di ba? Hehe"

Aside from the fact that Bilbo is old, his obsessiveness or the corrupting possession of the Ring over him might prevent him from destroying it in the end. This is what Gandalf already deduced right after he talked with his dear friend after his little trick on his Eleventy birthday. Thereby convincing him (Bilbo) to leave the Ring before he sets foot again on his second journey to Rivendell to continue on writing The Red Book of Westmarch, a book about the history of the Hobbits and other general occurrences that involves their lot specially about events during the Third Age of Middle Earth. :)

[K.D.]

I agree with Jzhun. Bilbo is corruptible.

Jzhun, pero bakit ang tagal kay Bilbo? Kasi di alam ni Sauron kung nasaan ang ring? Di ba nalaman lang na yong ring ay nasa Baggins (sa THE Shire - sige na nga Tricia may THE na) possession noong mahuli si Gollum? Samantalang laging sinusuot ni Bilbo. Hindi ba sya nakikita noong big eye (ano ngang tawag doon?) - Eye of Mordor? :)

Bakit doon lang biglang lumakas ang power ni Sauron? Matagal din yan kay Gollum kaya nga nagkalagas-lagas ang buhok nya hak hak.

[Maria]

Speaking of Bilbo's birthday, instead of the guests giving gifts to Bilbo, it was the other way around db. (I want to attend ng ganitong klaseng birthday =P)

Kung kayo ang may birthday, and you will be the one who will hand out presents to your guests, anong gift ang ibibigay nyo sa kanila, at bakit? generic gifts man yan, or personalized katulad ng ginawa ni Bilbo sa mga kamag-anak nya.

:)

[Tricia]

Yung nabasa ko, Tolkien made a new hero instead of Bilbo kahit Bilbo can give the readers a great adventure like in The Hobbit. Sabagay, kahit ako magsasawa kay Bilbo kung siya nanaman ang bida! Teka, may anak at asawa ba si Bilbo? Wala di ba? Kaya si Frodo ang napiling heir?

Yan din! Di ba mas nakikita talaga ni Sauron ang ring pag suot? Naguguluhan ako haha pero with Gollum, hindi pa malakas ang powers ni Sauron since hindi niya pa talaga alam na natagpuan na yung Ring. Saka super tago si Gollum compared naman kay Bilbo (and Frodo).

@maria: nakakatuwa yan! Meron kayang nagcecelebrate ng ganyan birthday? Pero with Bilbo, pansin ko, puro pang-aasar ang gifts niya haha tulad dun sa gift niyang silver spoons na laging ninanakaw nung... Nakalimutan ko yung name haha! Basta yung laging umaangkin sa Bag's End (tama ba?).

[Charles]

jzhunagev wrote: In relation to this, I think I've questioned myself long enough as to why is it out of hundereds of hobbits, did Gandalf chose Bilbo to undertook the journey to Lonely Mountain considering that in the first place there's nothing special about him, nor is he actually a thief?

There's several possible reasons for this:

a) Gandalf had foresight (in seeing Bilbo's potential)
b) Bilbo was his friend
c) Gandalf needed someone to temper the dwarves

[Apokripos]

K.D. wrote: "Jzhun, pero bakit ang tagal kay Bilbo? Kasi di alam ni Sauron kung nasaan ang ring? Di ba nalaman lang na yong ring ay nasa Baggins (sa THE Shire - sige na nga Tricia may THE na) possession noong mahuli si Gollum? Samantalang laging sinusuot ni Bilbo. Hindi ba sya nakikita noong big eye (ano ngang tawag doon?) - Eye of Mordor? :)"

Very good question Kuya D!

This is another excellent point to emphasis one of Tolkien themes which is Evil is full of itself, that it has an inclination to overlook things, which for one is that it fails to recognize the power residing in the common folk, which in this instance is represented by the hobbits, as far as the first book is concerned.

As you kindly pointed out in your earlier comment, Hobbits are virtual unknown from other races in Middle Earth, to which consequently, THE Shire is also a place not recorded in the earlier maps. Also, take in consideration the relative distance geographically of THE Shire to Mordor on the map in the book. In this instance it's no wonder why Sauron don't have a damn care whether they exists or not.

To explain it further, Sauron was, for want of a better word, recuperating during the years when Bilbo has the Ring in his possession because he was vanquished (or so they thought. Haha! :D) by the White Council (which included Saruman the White, Elrond and the Elf-Queen, the magnificent Galadriel) from Mirkwood.

As Sauron grows in power and dominion in Mordor, then so is the Ring yearns to be with its original owner. As Sauron expands his army, enlisting orcs/goblins from the Misty Mountains this was the time when Gollum was taken to Mordor to extract information from him (parang yong torture prison lang sa Guantanamo Bay. To think of it ,Tolkien still has far-reaching allegories gleaned from his fantasy epic to these modern times of ours! I ♥ Tolkien talaga! O ha!) as to where the Ring is.

Gollum just had the bad luck of not having the Ring that's why he was easily captured by the orcs. This plot point then serves its purpose why Frodo and Sam (with a considerable and valid doubt) took Gollum's bidding to be their guide to Mordor.

Wheww...

[K.D.]

Ay hala, well explained. Sus, ikaw na talaga ang apo ni Tolkien. Ikaw na! Nagpapatirapa sa iyong harapan. *kneeling, bowing and swaying*

Magiisip pa ako ng tanong. Pero so far nasasagot ninyo convincingly ni Charles - ang kapatid ni Tolkien!!!

[Charles]

K.D. wrote: Jzhun, pero bakit ang tagal kay Bilbo? Kasi di alam ni Sauron kung nasaan ang ring? Di ba nalaman lang na yong ring ay nasa Baggins (sa THE Shire - sige na nga Tricia may THE na) possession noong mahuli si Gollum? Samantalang laging sinusuot ni Bilbo. Hindi ba sya nakikita noong big eye (ano ngang tawag doon?) - Eye of Mordor? :)

Bakit doon lang biglang lumakas ang power ni Sauron? Matagal din yan kay Gollum kaya nga nagkalagas-lagas ang buhok nya hak hak.

1) Sauron was still recuperating his strength back then

2) The Ring wasn't used that much. The reason Gollum was able to hide it from Sauron was because he seldom used it. The One Ring corrupted him but did not turn him into a Ringwraith (which is the eventual fate of those who would use the Rings).

3) Hobbits (and Gollum) have a natural resistance to corruption.

4) Sauron didn't have omniscience. Hindi siya GPS :) Alam niya yung general vicinity pero hindi yung exact location.

5) Power. Sauron's forces was still weak back then. The Shire is a bit far and would powerful forces to travel and eventually conquer. To pursue it would also mean distracting Sauron from his other duties/plans.

[Tricia]

Hail, hail the Tolkienese!

[Charles]

Maria wrote: "Speaking of Bilbo's birthday, instead of the guests giving gifts to Bilbo, it was the other way around db. (I want to attend ng ganitong klaseng birthday =P)



Ginagawa naman natin ito. Tawag diyan "pakain" o "libre". Generic nga lang.

[Apokripos]

Charles wrote: "4) Sauron didn't have omniscience. Hindi siya GPS :) Alam niya yung general vicinity pero hindi yung exact location."

Boom!

Omniscience! Yes, that was the very word I was looking for when I was composing my message above.

There you go, Sauron don't have Omniscience, that Evil is short sighted by the absolute desire to have Power, to hold sway over all.

Thank you, Mr. Charlas Tan! ^_^

[K.D.]

F2F6: Q&A session with the Tolkienese duo: Jzhun and Charles.

[Charles]

jzhunagev wrote: There you go, Sauron don't have Omniscience, that Evil is short sighted by the absolute desire to have Power, to hold sway over all.

Para sa akin it's more of Sauron's hubris. Kasi ganito ang options niya:

1) get the One Ring = panalo siya

2) not get the One Ring = panalo pa rin
siya, pero mas matagal lang

3) destroy the One Ring = talo siya, pero para masira ang the One Ring, kailangan umuwi sa Mordor

(view spoiler)[At sa totoo lang, pagkakataon lang naman na nanalo sila. Kahit si Frodo na-corrupt ng Ring sa huli. Buti lang nandoon si Gollum at ang kaniyang pagkakanais na nasira yung One Ring. (hide spoiler)]

[Apokripos]

Ahhh, I see your point there, Mr Charles! :)

[Angus]

Mamimigay ako ng books! From Book Sale, hehehe.

[Apokripos]

Tricia wrote: "@maria: nakakatuwa yan! Meron kayang nagcecelebrate ng ganyan birthday? Pero with Bilbo, pansin ko, puro pang-aasar ang gifts niya haha tulad dun sa gift niyang silver spoons na laging ninanakaw nung... Nakalimutan ko yung name haha! Basta yung laging umaangkin sa Bag's End (tama ba?)."

It was the Sackville-Bagginses.

Tas yong nakakatawa noong pag-uwi ni Bilbo sa The Hobbit akala nila patay na siya kaya pinagbebenta nila yong gamit niya. Haha! :D

The silverware was formerly owned by Bilbo's mother, Belladona Took, kaya siguro memorable at may sentimental value. :)

[Maria]

@maria: nakakatuwa yan! Meron kayang nagcecelebrate ng ganyan birthday? Pero with Bilbo, pansin ko, puro pang-aasar ang gifts niya haha tulad dun sa gift niyang silver spoons na laging ninanakaw nung... Nakalimutan ko yung name haha! Basta yung laging umaangkin sa Bag's End (tama ba?)

i agree! hindi ko alam kung natuwa ang mga pinagbigyan nya dahil naalala sila or nainis dahil parang nonsense ung pinamimigay nya sa kanila. hehehe

[Maria]

Ginagawa naman natin ito. Tawag diyan "pakain" o "libre". Generic nga lang.

Charles, i'm thinking of keepsakes or tokens, not food.

[Charles]

Maria wrote: "Ginagawa naman natin ito. Tawag diyan "pakain" o "libre". Generic nga lang.

Charles, i'm thinking of keepsakes or tokens, not food."

Minsan tawag diyan "souvenirs"

[Tricia]

Pero with Bilbo, those tokens are personal and random compared to uniformed souvenirs hehe sa birthday ni KD! Haha! LOLJK

[Angus]

Kung makapagparinig naman si BILBO Baggins ay walang kupas! Hahaha!

[Charles]

Hindi random yung kay Bilbo. Mga iba roon sadiyang pampainis. (Baka ganun din gawin ni KD, hala kayo.)

[Maria]

Minsan tawag diyan "souvenirs"

Alam ko. Ang tanong: pag birthday mo ba, nagbibigay ka ng souvenirs?

[Charles]

Maria wrote:

Alam ko. Ang tanong: pag birthday mo ba, nagbibigay ka ng souvenirs?"

Minsan. Kapag kiddie party.

[K.D.]

Hak hak. Hoy, "Remains" ang book sa birthday ko. Kaning lamig gusto mo? Or tutong!!! O kaya ash from cremation. O bangkay. Di ba yan ang tawag sa bangkay? As in "his remains now lie at Sanctuario..."