Mockingjay
discussion
Katniss approving another hunger games at the end?
I believe Katniss agreed only as a ploy so Coin wouldn't expect what came next. "For Prim," really had nothing to do with another Hunger Games but for vengeance!
I think part of the problem shown by this discussion is that typically in current young adult novels, there is no need for inference based on contextual clues. It is an unfortunate drawback of YA novels today and is a significant change from the YA classics. If you look at Katniss and Haymitch's relationship from the first book and again referenced in Mockingjay in how closely they think alike, you can see that they are able to communicate without expressly stating their intentions. If she was only out for vengeance, she wouldn't be lamenting over how nothing has changed. Instead, she would seem much more satisfied by inflicting pain on the capital citizens. Many people don't like this book compared to the first two, but I think it is very realistic for what Katniss must be feeling and going through. In the first two, she is motivated by survival and love for those she cares about, and she is able to thrive by thinking on her feet based on her life experiences in District 12. In this final book, she has become the Mockingjay to make Panem better and free its citizens from tyranny. This is new to her, so it makes sense that she would seem disjointed and conflicted, especially when she looks at how both sides are behaving in the war. Plus, being from the first person point of view, she wouldn't be witnessing every significant event firsthand, so we have to be told about plot developments instead of being shown, which is a huge criticism by many people but that I believe is realistic. Perhaps I am giving the author to much credit and reading to much into it, but I really believe that Mockingjay is a good ending to the trilogy and that the characters' portrayal is consistent with the first two books.
I don't think Katniss was really thinking clearly. I think she was just wanting revenge. Because at that time she still thought it was the capitols fault Prim was dead. Not Coin's. Plus she had just gone through alot most of her friends dying and her witnessing it. The capitol Hijacking Peeta. She still so made about all of that so the only thing she was thinking about was pure cold revenge. That's just my point of view. :)
Cassy wrote: "I don't think Katniss was really thinking clearly. I think she was just wanting revenge. Because at that time she still thought it was the capitols fault Prim was dead. Not Coin's. Plus she had jus..."I laugh whenever someone say's something like this.
There is no opinion's or point of views on this topic.
She did not say yes out of revenge or hate or anything else. She had no intention of letting another Hunger Games happen.
People really need to start reading the book instead of skimming through it. It's all in the wording.
I honestly do not believe Katniss said "yes" because it was her plan all along against Coin to gain her trust. By this time Katniss was tired, shocked, and just plain fed up with everything going around her. I read it as her giving up; that everything they had just fought against, the change everyone had been so avidly fighting for, and Prim's death, was all in vain. When Kat said "yes", I felt like she honestly just didn't care anymore. It wasn't until she was walking to Snow's execution that she began putting all the clues together on who was to be trusted. It wasn't until last minute that she decided to execute Coin and thus causing Snow's natural untimely death.
Sam wrote: "I was disturbed by this aspect of Katniss's character too, all of our belief in her 'natural justice' is challenged in her approval of the continued barbarism of more H/G.
Reading through this thr..."
Wonderfully put, Sam.
Reading through this thr..."
Wonderfully put, Sam.
Jennifer wrote: "I honestly do not believe Katniss said "yes" because it was her plan all along against Coin to gain her trust. By this time Katniss was tired, shocked, and just plain fed up with everything going a..."well then you didn't pay attention to the wording
I don't think anyone has mentioned the "not wanting to be a part in their games" element. Voting yes or no were the only two options the victors were given, but staying true to her role thus far in the games, she refused to play according to the rules and made a third option... killing Coin in order to prevent yet another manipulative calculating leader that did not have the well-being of the populace as their first priority.
Elizabeth wrote: "i thought it was nice that she did it for prim but thats no way to bring her back. also all those children in the capitol were like katniss; the actions of their parents it wasnt their fault or the..."Good point Elizabeth. This happens throughout the series. The children must suffer for the actions of their ancestors. It's just wrong. Even the district 13 kids because they died from disease or were left deformed.
But also, Katniss voting yes opens my eyes to the fact that maybe grief and war can drive the most compassionate protective person into cruelty and cold-blooded revenge. I mean how did the games begin anyway? Were all the Capitol leaders born evil or were they normal people making irreversable decisions with their grief-weakened hearts? Meaning everyone is capable of attrocities, but we need to be true to the single-formed idea of utilitarainism and peace and disregard selfish motives.
Nicky wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "i thought it was nice that she did it for prim but thats no way to bring her back. also all those children in the capitol were like katniss; the actions of their parents it wasnt ..."Seriously? Katniss did not do it out of revenge. Who ever thinks that seriously needs to learn how to read a book. I don't know where you guy's keep coming up with this information.
Daniel wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I honestly do not believe Katniss said "yes" because it was her plan all along against Coin to gain her trust. By this time Katniss was tired, shocked, and just plain fed up with e..."I paid plentyof attention to the wording. This is my opinion, everyone takes and reads the same thing differently. I dont believe revenge was in her heart, or she had an ulterior motive to kill Coin. It all happened haphazardly.
Jennifer wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I honestly do not believe Katniss said "yes" because it was her plan all along against Coin to gain her trust. By this time Katniss was tired, shocked, and just plai..."There are no opinions here. It happened one way. If you paid attention to the wording you should have been able to figure it out. When she says things like..
"I weigh my options carefully, think everything through."
"(...), but I can feel Haymitch watching me. This is the moment, then. When we find out exactly just how alike we are, and how much he truly understands me."
And Haymitch says he agrees with the Mockingjay, not Katniss.
The Mockingjay being the symbol of the revolution.
And also I think Katniss wanted to kill Coin even before the "Capitol Hunger Games" was proposed. Katniss showed building unease in regards to Coin throughout the book. This passage mentions it, pg 361: "Someone very high up would have to approve putting a 13-year old in in combat. Did Coin do it, hoping that losing Prim would put me over the edge?" So, Katniss suspected at page 361. Her suspicions turned into certainty on page 369.
When she say's "for Prim" she already knows Coin did it. So why would she approve another Hunger Games and say "for Prim"? Because she needed to buy time to figure out her next step.
So Katniss and Haymitch were both on the same page, Coin was just as bad as Snow and had to be stopped. Voting yes just gave them time to figure something out.
Daniel: u are really annoying. Just let us think what we think and thats it. Dont try to condescend us on the internet. Or else, Ur lame.
Emanuel wrote: "Daniel: u are really annoying. Just let us think what we think and thats it. Dont try to condescend us on the internet. Or else, Ur lame."You can think whatever you want buddy, but you're wrong.
Sorry Daniel, but I second Emanuel's claim. This is a "discussion board". Not a "Daniel-gets-to-insult-everyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-his-one-literal-interpretation board". So please leave it to people who want to have actual discussions.
Nicky wrote: "Sorry Daniel, but I second Emanuel's claim. This is a "discussion board". Not a "Daniel-gets-to-insult-everyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-his-one-literal-interpretation board". So please leave it to p..."I don't know what your problem is. Oh wait yeah i do, you're mad because i'm right. It's ok, i forgive you.
Yes, you're right and have it all figured out. You obviously don't belong here with the rest of us muddling around in our ignorance. Now go away.
I see you're angry about being wrong, it's ok everybody is wrong sometimes
Wow this whole discussion board just makes me sad. I mean, how old are you kids that you couldn't comprehend that Katniss would never have stood for children paying for the sins of their ancestors?And forget all that, okay, even if your comprehension skills are so low, that you haven't understood Katniss' character at all, why on earth would Haymitch agree with her? He hasn't gone through any particularly recent traumas. Jesus.
At least read the first few posts that very clearly explain why Katniss says yes.
Daniel, I do agree you should let it go. I feel bad for you.
And, I applaud those of you who actually had this debate and were able to understand why Katniss said yes.
Sam wrote: "I was disturbed by this aspect of Katniss's character too, all of our belief in her 'natural justice' is challenged in her approval of the continued barbarism of more H/G. Reading through this thr..."
Thanx for your post, it cleared up an argument I was having with my sis!! I knew I was right!
The author is challenging what we think we know about Katniss by not explaining Katniss's decision to say "Yes". I personally believe that Katniss only said "Yes" to get coin on her side. Because she knew she was already looking bad in Coin's eyes and that she would not hesitate to kill Katniss. Katniss is always calculating and weighing her options especially if she does not like what is being presented to her as options. She probably had a plan to expose or get rid of Coin later on, and when she had her bow and arrow in her hand she made the decision to execute coin right there and then.
Chelsey wrote: "The author is challenging what we think we know about Katniss by not explaining Katniss's decision to say "Yes". I personally believe that Katniss only said "Yes" to get coin on her side. Because s..."I think you are right Chelsey. Of all the options your explanation makes the most sense to me.
I think Kantiss was Delusinal when she said yes.
I thought that katness worked against and hated the games and then sayed yes and was going to let other children to go through what she did. I was shocked :-/
It would have been great if Peeta was used as the narrator. Katniss becomes stubborn. Peeta maintains his kind attitude.
Starhyphen wrote: "I didn't care, made Peeta look even better!"weird
Elizabeth wrote: "Vonetta wrote: "Casey is right! Katniss always has a feeling Coin was evil, and when Coin suggested to have another Hunger Games for capital children it confirmed what Katniss already knew. She nev..."I can kinda see where you get that except why did she have to say 'yes' to it? I don't think she cared at all to have Coin on her sign....I don't remember anything in the book that supports that. I think she did want the other Hunger Games. That's what war does to people. That is why is goes on and on. People want revenge.
Katy wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Vonetta wrote: "Casey is right! Katniss always has a feeling Coin was evil, and when Coin suggested to have another Hunger Games for capital children it confirmed what Katniss alr..."She did not do it out of revenge, she did not want another Hunger Games. She did not want Coin on her side, she needed Coin to think she was on her side. She knew what Coin was capable of.
I'm just going to repost my earlier post. It has some but not all the wording to support it.
"I weigh my options carefully, think everything through."
"(...), but I can feel Haymitch watching me. This is the moment, then. When we find out exactly just how alike we are, and how much he truly understands me."
And Haymitch says he agrees with the Mockingjay, not Katniss.
The Mockingjay being the symbol of the revolution.
And also I think Katniss wanted to kill Coin even before the "Capitol Hunger Games" was proposed. Katniss showed building unease in regards to Coin throughout the book. This passage mentions it, pg 361: "Someone very high up would have to approve putting a 13-year old in in combat. Did Coin do it, hoping that losing Prim would put me over the edge?" So, Katniss suspected at page 361. Her suspicions turned into certainty on page 369.
When she say's "for Prim" she already knows Coin did it. So why would she approve another Hunger Games and say "for Prim"? Because she needed to buy time to figure out her next step.
ikr i culdnt believe it!
Daniel wrote: "Katy wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Vonetta wrote: "Casey is right! Katniss always has a feeling Coin was evil, and when Coin suggested to have another Hunger Games for capital children it confirmed wha..."This guy is right.
I have read most of the comments and have no idea why people would think she actually wanted another HG.
I mean, like, it's pretty clear as to why she said yes. This guys post sums it up
Haidi wrote: "Saying if was "for Prim" wasn't her real reason, she just said that for something to say. "I disagree. I think the words 'for Prim' are very relevant and true in this case. She agreed with the vote to get on Coin's side, to get a bow and to kill her - for Prim. Because Coin was responsible for Prim's death. Because Coin was just going to continue a dictatorship like Snow, with Hunger Games and killing innocent children. Something Prim would have never wanted. What Katniss thought about Snow at the end confirms it as well because she says she knows he wasn’t lying to her.
She knows it was Coin who killed Prim so saying it was 'for Prim' was 100% true, but not for the reasons that Coin would have taken it for. Heymitch realised this and trusted Katniss, they've always been able to understand each other without words and when he agrees with 'the Mockingjay' that's him acknowledging that he's voting for the revelution. As soon as she said it was for Prim I knew something was going on, because the Capitol didn't kill Prim - Coin did. I don't understand how people can ignore all this and believe she did it for revenge when there's so much says otherwise...
Emanuel wrote: "Katniss was already on her way to kill snow, wouldn't Coin still go to snows execution even if Katniss said "no" to another Game? There is nothing in the book that suggests Coin wouldn't have been present..."
Katy wrote: "I can kinda see where you get that except why did she have to say 'yes' to it? I don't think she cared at all to have Coin on her sign....I don't remember anything in the book that supports that..."
If Coin didn't have her killed there and then she definitely would not have let her be the one to have that bow and kill Snow. Remember the agreement back at the start of Mockingjay? When Katniss asks to be the one to kill Snow Coin says that she'll flip her for it or something. Basically she didn't promise that Katniss would be the one to kill Snow, and if Katniss hadn't agreed with the Hunger Games she would never have been allowed to be the one to kill Snow and so would never have gotten the chance to take out Coin.
Sheechiibii wrote: "Haidi wrote: "Saying if was "for Prim" wasn't her real reason, she just said that for something to say. "I disagree. I think the words 'for Prim' are very relevant and true in this case. She agre..."
that is exactly right i wish i could explain it like that
Casey wrote: "I don't think she voted for more Hunger Games with the intent of actually going through with it. She just wanted to get Coin on her side. If she had voted against it, Coin would have ignored her vote and Katniss would have never had a chance to kill her. As it is, Katniss voted yes and Haymitch understood her enough to vote yes with her. This made it possible for Katniss to be holding a weapon meant to kill Snow which she could use to kill Coin after people were aware that Coin was just like Snow.
"
Good point but stil dont get it. So maybe any of you could help me. Why do you think that if she will vote different (NO). She will be not allow to kill Snow?? That was an agreement that she had with Coin. Right?
I still think that Katniss agreed with other games by the pain that she felt for the death of her sister.
Or maybe I need to read that part over and over again so I can truly understand what all of you are explaining....
Monkique wrote: "Casey wrote: "I don't think she voted for more Hunger Games with the intent of actually going through with it. She just wanted to get Coin on her side. If she had voted against it, Coin would have ..."It's all already been said in this discussion, multiple times.
Daniel wrote: "It's all already been said in this discussion, multiple times. "Ok.. thank you for the observation. You are so nice :S uhm..
Many people are defending Katniss I will not. she made a huge mistake in a moment of low she still made a mistake. People lets think Katniss is not that forward thinking, she did not plan to kill Coin so she is guilty of her crime.
Monkique wrote: " Why do you think that if she will vote different (NO). She will be not allow to kill Snow?? That was an agreement that she had with Coin. Right?..."Because in her agreement with Coin it was never said she'd be allowed to kill Snow. It was what she asked for, but Coin said something like 'when the time comes I'll flip you for it' - so it was never guaranteed that Coin would allow her to kill Snow.
The way she said yes is also a give away. She said "Yes...for Prim" and then instead of killing Snow she killed Coin, ensuring that there would not be any more games, and at the time thought about how Coin was responsible for Prim's death. So saying 'for Prim' when she knew it was Coin who was responsible tells me that the only reason she agreed was to be able to avenge Prim's death by killing Coin.
Sheechiibii wrote: " The way she said yes is also a give away. She said "Yes...for Prim" and then instead of killing Snow she killed Coin, ensuring that there would not be any more games, and at the time thought about how Coin was responsible for Prim's death. So saying 'for Prim' when she knew it was Coin who was responsible tells me that the only reason she agreed was to be able to avenge Prim's death by killing Coin. "
Thanks for replying. I saw your point!
I thought that it was kind of interesting that she did vote for it in the end. Even though she did want to abolish it, I can see why she would vote for it. I think that Prim dying at the end pushed her over the edge, since she fought so hard to protect her. I mean, she did go to the games for that reason! Even though it would probably be better not to, because it's not the capital children's fault that they were born there, but I can see why she would.
Isabella wrote: "I thought that it was kind of interesting that she did vote for it in the end. Even though she did want to abolish it, I can see why she would vote for it. I think that Prim dying at the end pushed..."Actually you obviously can't see why she would vote for it. Prim dying did not push her over the edge to where she wants another Hunger Games. She already knew Coin was as bad as Snow at this point. She also had suspicions that Coin was responsible for Prim being killed. She only voted yes so she could have the opportunity to stop Coin.
It's all said in the wording of the book. I can't seem to understand why people think she did it out of revenge, anger or because she wasn't thinking clearly
It's all said in the wording of the book. I can't seem to understand why people think she did it out of revenge, anger or because she wasn't thinking clearlyWell, I can't understand why people is rude about this topic. I have the spanish version of the book so maybe something is missing in the translation. But for me it wasn't that clear. Yes, now I can see and understand your point but I also understand why so many people think that Katniss voted yes because she was angry and in pain for Prim's death.
Isabella wrote: "I thought that it was kind of interesting that she did vote for it in the end. Even though she did want to abolish it, I can see why she would vote for it. I think that Prim dying at the end pushed..."yeah
At first when I read that she voted for it I was so angry and appalled I want to throw the book across the room. Which would have been a bad idea considering I was reading on a kindle :p. But then later I realized why she did it.. to kill Coin. But was anyone else upset that snow died that easily? I mean come on after everything he's done and after what Katniss has been through to kill him he just gets trampled?
Valerie wrote: "But was anyone else upset that snow died that easily? I mean come on after everything he's done and after what Katniss has been through to kill him he just gets trampled?"yeah, I thought it was kind of a let-down, too.
Kirby wrote: "Valerie wrote: "But was anyone else upset that snow died that easily? I mean come on after everything he's done and after what Katniss has been through to kill him he just gets trampled?"yeah, I ..."
I heard a theory that the rose she gave him was poisoned and that's how he died. I'm not sure I believe it though, but the rose was descibed as poisoned multiple times before she gave it to him, so who knows? I think if it had been there would have been more mention of it, but maybe it was meant to be a bit vague and confusing, because Katniss felt confused and not really with it at the time. I think it would be awesome if it was poisoned, the perfect way to kill Snow.
The children of the capital did nothing wrong. They were brought up that way with no other way of life. Katniss had no right to vote for those games and i was unhappy with her decision. But, it was more realistic because voting against would make Katniss alike your typical goody good guy, which she is most definitely not.
Kayla wrote: "The children of the capital did nothing wrong. They were brought up that way with no other way of life. Katniss had no right to vote for those games and i was unhappy with her decision. But, it was..."Katniss didn't vote for the games, she voted for Prim and all that she stood for. If she'd voted for the games she wouldn't have killed the one making them happen. She voted 'yes' in order to be able to put a stop to it all by killing Coin.
Kayla wrote: "The children of the capital did nothing wrong. They were brought up that way with no other way of life. Katniss had no right to vote for those games and i was unhappy with her decision. But, it was..."true
I feel like Nedume was right. Throughout the books keep telling about how the games were horrible, worst thing that happened to Katniss in her life, tragic, etc. "These Hunger Games are terrible! I'll just put others through the games!"
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or, if not outright kill her, she probably wouldn't have trusted her enough to give her a clean shot like she did.