Mockingjay
discussion
Katniss approving another hunger games at the end?
By God!The Katniss was full of revenge against Capitol, because of Prim, at the time of the vote! She wanted someone to pay for her death!
Mi wrote: "By God!The Katniss was full of revenge against Capitol, because of Prim, at the time of the vote! She wanted someone to pay for her death!"
Did you read the books or just skim them? She thought hard before voting, she was horrified that the cycle of killing childrern was continuing and seemed to have no end and she did not hate the people of the capitol only President Snow (not his family). She was also aware that Coin was the most ruthless person she would ever have the misfortune of meeting. Had they voted against Coin they would not have survived the meeting, Coin was quite capable of killing all of them and had earlier sent Peeta to join Katniss in the hope he would kill her. Katniss votes yes for Prim, not a vote for more hunger games though Coin is supposed to believe this and does because having no moral values this is how Coin would behave. A vote of yes for Prim is a vote for valuing people as Prim did. Haymitch, who won his games because he is smart, heard the hidden message and voted with Katniss. He also thought the games were obscene but was smart enough to make Coin think he had voted for them.
Emma wrote: "Mi wrote: "By God!The Katniss was full of revenge against Capitol, because of Prim, at the time of the vote! She wanted someone to pay for her death!"
Did you read the books or just skim them? Sh..."
Seriously, i don't think the people that say she did it for revenge or whatever actually read it.
Emma is right, they would not have survived that meeting if they said no. Saying "yes" was all for show.
Absolutely. Once Katniss realises that vengeance is the driving force behind the status quo she sees what Peeta sees, that violence begets violence. Her stance as the mockingjay is time break that cycle. I can't see why some readers are so insistent on the 'revenge principal', it makes Katniss's rebellion pointless! Her victory is in making sure there are no more kids murdered by the State.
Yes that was weird!It is strange that Katniss wanted the Hunger Games to be gone forever more than anything else, then she approves it.
No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels
Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"No she approved it with no intention of letting it happen.
Coin gave only 2 options, kill the citizens of the capital OR have a retributional hunger games. (Advocated by the victors). Using the victors to create a media show, a new regime of fear and oppression. ' NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE NOW' Katniss realises. By giving Haymitch the decisive vote she is challenging him to supporting her plan. Which he does. If Kastniss had of said 'no' Coin would have an excuse to wage all out revenge on the capital. In short, Coin has to be stopped. The cycle has to end.
personally, i HATED this part. honestly, i hated this entire book for the same reason. katniss just isn't herself in this book or when she makes this decision. peeta and annie (btw the two characters confirmed to be insane) are they only ones that make the right decision here. everyone else is acting out of malice, including katniss. she would never have agreed to another games in the first book because those children she sent to their deaths are just like her. they are not responsible for the faults of their parents. this decision really made me hate and discredit the book. it was cheap.
Fran wrote: "personally, i HATED this part. honestly, i hated this entire book for the same reason. katniss just isn't herself in this book or when she makes this decision. peeta and annie (btw the two characte..."I suggest that you read this thread- it may give you a different opinion about it...
Fran wrote: "personally, i HATED this part. honestly, i hated this entire book for the same reason. katniss just isn't herself in this book or when she makes this decision. peeta and annie (btw the two characte..."Really? Why do people keep saying she did it out of revenge? When she approved it she never intended to let it happen. By agreeing to it, it opened up the opportunity to take out Coin. She did not do it for revenge
i have been reading it. sticking with my thoughts. thanks though :)
sorry Daniel, i just can't see it. i'm sticking with my opinion but thanks for presenting yours :)
Fran wrote: "sorry Daniel, i just can't see it. i'm sticking with my opinion but thanks for presenting yours :)"Wasn't an opinion buddy. Anyone with half a brain knows that
Daniel wrote: "Fran wrote: "sorry Daniel, i just can't see it. i'm sticking with my opinion but thanks for presenting yours :)"
Wasn't an opinion buddy. Anyone with half a brain knows that"
no need to be hurtful. i was trying to be nice. i just don't agree with you. sorry to rain on your parade but others have a right to their own opinion. and this is mine.
Wasn't an opinion buddy. Anyone with half a brain knows that"
no need to be hurtful. i was trying to be nice. i just don't agree with you. sorry to rain on your parade but others have a right to their own opinion. and this is mine.
Fran wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Fran wrote: "sorry Daniel, i just can't see it. i'm sticking with my opinion but thanks for presenting yours :)"Wasn't an opinion buddy. Anyone with half a brain knows that"
no ne..."
I see common sense is even farther gone than i thought. If that's your opinion, then maybe you should reread the book. Should not be any opinion's about it.
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"No she approved it with no intention of letting it happen."
What do you mean with no intention of letting it happen. Just because she killed presedint Coin dosen't mean that they didn't still have the hunger games with the capital children cuz after she killed her they locked her in a room for it so they probly still went throuh with it
I like the observation about the sanity of the decisions of Peeta and Annie as being derided but agree with Daniel on motivation and outcome. What kind of world do Katniss and Peeta's children inherit? One without games. The author is not being flippant with what is an apparent turn around in Katniss' position. War does awful things to people, it creates room for hatred. Katniss proves she is ultimately still compassionate and if you honestly thing she's vengeful you are not a Katniss, you are a Johanna. Haymitch and Katniss are victors because they think outside the usual parameters. That is why they vote 'yes'. Some will see that, others won't.
Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"No she approved it with no intention of lett..."
You seriously need to reread the book
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"No she approved it with no in..."
Why? They never said that they weren't gonna go through with the next HG just cuz president Coin is dead
Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"No she approve..."
Whatever, think whatever you want buddy. If you paid attention when reading the book, you would know that Katniss and Haymitch agreed to another HG so they could get an opportunity to stop it from happening.
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "No she didn't she just approved anotherone for children of the capital so they and their parents would know how it feels"..."
No they didn't. She said yes and he said yes. They never talked about anything so maybe you need to reread the book again 'buddy'.
It's all in the wording buddy. Maybe you should pay attention to the words.
I don't think I'm the one why needs to pay attention.
Oh? Did you pay attention when Katniss says she will see how in tune with her Haymitch is based upon how he votes, and he states that he votes with "the mockingjay", not with Katniss?
If Katniss voted no, Coin would still go about having a new Hunger Games and set up a way to destroy Katniss like Snow tried to do to get her out of the way of starting trouble.
Kenneth wrote: "If Katniss voted no, Coin would still go about having a new Hunger Games and set up a way to destroy Katniss like Snow tried to do to get her out of the way of starting trouble."Exactly. By voting yes she made Coin think she was on her side because of Prims death. Allowing her the opportunity to kill Coin.
But daniel you think that just because Coin is dead means that they are not going to have the HG. Katniss and Haymitch are not the only ones that voted yes so they could still have it.
I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Games. But they teach about them at school, and the girl knows we played a role in them
Idalis wrote: "But daniel you think that just because Coin is dead means that they are not going to have the HG. Katniss and Haymitch are not the only ones that voted yes so they could still have it."they did not have any more hunger games. panem became an actual democracy and paylor became the president.
Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Games. But they teach about them at school, and ..."
Wow, I feel so retarded because you are so right. I totaly forgot about the epilougue, I just thought she had kids with Peeta and that's it. I'm sorry...lol hahaha I feel dumb
Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Games. But they teach about them ..."
Yeah a lot of people tend to forget that part
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Games. But they te..."
Yeah, but I have a god reason because I read this book in February
Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no more Hunger Gam..."
I think i read it sometime in January.
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built, there are no ..."
Well then you have a good memory 'buddy'.
Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the memorials built..."
Nah i just had to have this discussion with a few other people over the months
Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Idalis wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I'm basing it on the wording in the book and the Epilogue.The arenas have been completely destroyed, the ..."
I bet, there are so many arguments that hapen over books
Lauren wrote: "I don't think she was thinking straight. [spoilers removed]"Really? Am i going to have to go over this again?
Just read our other conversations on this topic
It really IS all written in the book. As long as you understand the concept 'explained above' of K becoming the mockingjay, and all the symbolism of that metamorphasis. I'm relieved to see that people CAN come round and not just stick to an argument for the sake of it. The title of the 3rd book is a clue about what happens to K. She learns to mimick what she needs to say and appear like in order to survive. After losing her voice, she is 'changed' and becomes true to her own 'mockingjay' nature.
I loved the layers in this book and thought it very cleverly put together.
Moriah wrote: "I disagree, Katniss is smart but she was way too tired and she had gone through so much, I really don't believe she was thinking all that clearly when she voted yes....in fact she probably wasn't t..."That I don't buy at all. At pretty much all times in these books, Katniss is tired and traumatized, yet she's almost always able to think clearly. And I kind of think you've misunderstood Katniss a bit as a character, since she would never accept torture of children as a form of entertainment to punish ANY person. And Haymitch knew that, and agreed. I also think the whole passage of Katniss thoughts on how nothing's really changed and everything's still horrible, kind of tips it off that's she's NOT backing Coin on this. And that she hated Coin and was very suspicious towards her, we already know.
Come on, people. It's Katniss we're talking about.
Casey wrote: "I don't think she voted for more Hunger Games with the intent of actually going through with it. She just wanted to get Coin on her side. If she had voted against it, Coin would have ignored her vo..."I respectfully think Casey's theory is a bit far fetched. It's a good idea, and an easy one; to believe Katniss was influenced by a desire for Coin's approval.
However i really believe that the reason why Katniss said yes to another Game was because she was actually filled by a true hate towards the capital. She felt wanted to see the capitol citizens in pain.
It sounds really bad, seeing as how she is the heroine of the entire story and hero's are always portrayed as good, honorable people, but every hero has a fatal flaw.
I think this part of the story reveals her's.
Emanuel wrote: "Casey wrote: " She felt wanted to see the capitol citizens in pain ... she is the heroine of the entire story and hero's are always portrayed as good, honorable people, but every hero has a fatal flaw"Agreed. As I was reading the part. All I thought was : Oh, no! What is she saying?!
But at the same time I could understand the motive and desire, seeing as all the districts lived in fear/oppression. A change to equal the score.
And who wouldn't want too, being in that (dangerous) position?
Emanuel wrote: "I respectfully think Casey's theory is a bit far fetched. It's a good idea, and an easy one; to believe Katniss was influenced by a desire for Coin's approval. "well, I understand that you disagree with it, but it's hardly far-fetched- just take a look at how many people agree with her interpretation.
ETA: oh, yeah, and she never said it was to win coin's approval- it was to not arouse coin's suspicions...big difference.
Emanuel wrote: "Casey wrote: "I don't think she voted for more Hunger Games with the intent of actually going through with it. She just wanted to get Coin on her side. If she had voted against it, Coin would have ..."Seeing as the story is told from Katniss's point of view we know she thought carefully before voting and that she was horrified about the cycle repeating even wondering if that is how they ended up with the horror of the hunger games in the first place. We also know she counts on Haymitch understanding her. We know she hates and fears Snow but she likes many of the Capitol people hence she is horrified at how her team is treated in 13. We also know Coin is ruthless and power hungry, Katniss has already been warned that she will be seen as a threat if she is not totally supportive of Coin. If they are to live another day, when they might be able to make a difference, they cannot be seen to oppose Coin. "I vote yes - for Prim" is a classic deception when you give an answer that is taken as an answer to the question but is actually an independent statement. A vote of yes for Prim is a vote for compassion because that is what Prim represents. Haymitch, being smart, gets this and also does not vote for more games although Coin thinks he has. Katniss like all well rounded characters has flaws, avoidance of facing her feelings being the most obvious but you can only think she is acting for revenge with this vote if you ignore all the things we are specifically told she is thinking.
If people actually paid attention to the wording, they should know she did not want another Hunger Games. She only voted yes to get an opportunity to stop Coin later.
Wow emma, you really changed my mind! about katniss' reason. Ok, so she didn't do it out of spite, or revenge.But, Kirby, wouldnt Katniss have gotten the chance to kill coin even if she had roused suspicion?(others are saying the opportunity wouldn't come if there were suspicion)
Katniss was already on her way to kill snow, wouldn't Coin still go to snows execution even if Katniss said "no" to another Game? There is nothing in the book that suggests Coin wouldn't have been present. So Katniss would still have the opportunity to kill Coin.
That is what makes me think that katniss didn't care about coins suspicion.
Now I'm thinking that katniss finally did take the role of The mockingjay, (perhaps unintentionally) by saying yes to one last game.
And that she truely believed that it would somehow honor Prim
Btw, y'all are awsome readers!
Emanuel wrote: "Wow emma, you really changed my mind! about katniss' reason. Ok, so she didn't do it out of spite, or revenge.But, Kirby, wouldnt Katniss have gotten the chance to kill coin even if she had rouse..."
If Katniss would have said no, Coin would have just killed her.
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Indeed! That is what Katniss realised, that the new government is exactly the same as the one before that she helped kick out. When she said 'For Prim' it was a sign to Haymitch so he would understand why and to what she said yes. After the positive answer by Katniss, Coin let her guard down which gave Katniss the opportunity to stop the "new government" before it even started.