Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
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the consequence of dumbledore being gay
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Samantha wrote: "I don't think there is ever a right or wrong in how one enjoys a book, Nichola and Ayesha you both liked the book didn't you? Personally I didn't read a homosexual relationship there because I was ..."I apologise if i'm giving the wrong impression. I don't mean to suggest that everything about Dumbledore suggests homosexuality, far from it. Until the last book it never entered my mind.
Nichola wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I don't think there is ever a right or wrong in how one enjoys a book, Nichola and Ayesha you both liked the book didn't you? Personally I didn't read a homosexual relationship the..."^^ I just meant the specific examples you listed for Ayesha, I can understand how she'd still see the possibility of it being platonic instead. I think the Dumbledore/Gindlewald relationship can read either way because many times in the series a platonic relationship has been as close as a romantic one would be. But with the clarification on what Rowling thought as she wrote it of course I read it as homosexual now because it makes perfect sense and I love the trajedy of it all the more.
Samantha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I don't think there is ever a right or wrong in how one enjoys a book, Nichola and Ayesha you both liked the book didn't you? Personally I didn't read a homosexual ..."I did wonder about JKR with her tragic romances at one point. Dumbledore/grindlewald, Snape/Lilly, McGonagall/Muggle (maybe muggle born can't remember.) She did seem to write in an awful lot of tragedy in the background stories of a few of her characters. The only one's who seemed to overcome it were Tonks and Lupin and they seemed to have troubles despite it.
Nichola wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Samantha wrote: "I don't think there is ever a right or wrong in how one enjoys a book, Nichola and Ayesha you both liked the book didn't you? Personally I didn't r..."Perhaps the tragic tales are just the ones she felt most compelled to tell? James and Lily, by contrast, had a fairy tale romance, Molly and Arthur as well. Even Hagrid and Olympe seemed alright most of the time and otherwise it was all teenaged relationships which are always dramatic anyway.
The same book can be a completely unique experience to each reader because of their interpretation of the storyline, the way they imagine the characters. I'm not sure how this leads you to a potential obsession with a character? I'm sorry, I wasn't clear about that. I keep thinking about the "Ultimate Betrayal" website. (There were a group of people who were completely convinced that Harry/Hermione was canon. When JKR announced that she shipped Ginny/Harry, those folks got massively upset.) That kind of refusal to acknowledge that the character you've imagined is not the same as the author has written is what I'm talking about. It, I believe, comes from, filling in between the lines (I think that’s a better phrase than “reading between the lines), or seeing characteristics that have no basis in what’s been written. I didn’t read anything to suggest that Dumbledore was gay. You did. We read the exact same thing.
The problem, I think, is not what we were reading, but, rather, us as individuals. This is my point. I understand that when we read, we do it through "me-colored lenses" and our beliefs, experiences and what-not flavor the book and characters. We seem to agree on that. You also said that there’s nothing written in stone in the books and that it was your own experiences that caused you to take a second look at Grindlewald and Dumbledore’s relationship.
But, then you go on to say that if you wondered about Dumbledore’s sexuality, it had to be because of something in the book. [Nichola wrote: "What I'm trying to point out is that if Dumbedore is the only one I questioned in the book, until it was confirmed, then there must have been something in the book to suggest it in the first place?"]
So, now, I sort of feel like I have to justify the fact that I didn’t see Dumbledore as gay. When I read that he’s got a best friend who lives next door, and who he spends every day talking about politics with and gets so excited about philosophy and magical theory that he has to send an owl in the middle of the night, I think “Wow, even as a teenager, he was a big dork.” I don’t think, “Wow, he must’ve been massively crushing.” Every indication, to me, was that this was a relationship between two teenagers who were a little full of themselves, but essentially harmless.
But that’s the way I read it, no one else has to read it that way, I don’t think less of anyone who didn’t see it that way. But, you said that it should have been obvious to anyone with common sense that Dumbledore was gay. In the same way that I don’t like people assuming that JKR “made” Dumbledore gay to prove a point, I don’t like being accused of lacking commonsense for not seeing that Dumbledore was gay.. It’s not that I don’t “want to acknowledge the possibility of something more than a platonic relationship.” It’s simply that I didn’t see it. In the same why that your life and experiences led you to believe that Dumbledore might be gay, mine didn’t. And you’ve not given anything from the book that makes it obvious that Dumbledore was gay.
So, I’ll say it again: I think it could be taken either way.
tl/dr: don't call me stupid just because I don't see gay people.
There is no obvious indication of his orientation because it isn't a big deal and has no bearing on the story whatsoever!This is the beauty of JK's writing: No big deal was made about anything to do with race, nationality, or orientation. Acceptance for everyone!
The only disparity was between pure-bloods and anyone else, and that was important to the furthering of the story.
Ayesha wrote: "The same book can be a completely unique experience to each reader because of their interpretation of the storyline, the way they imagine the characters. I'm not sure how this leads you to a potent..."Whoa! Who called you stupid? As far as I can see we were discussing different points of view. From your last post I think some of the points we discuss, we agree on. Some others, I think we may be talking about different things. I'm talking about reading between the lines not filling in the gaps!
The people who refused to take what JKR offered- surely that, again, comes down to personality as opposed to their interpretation of a book? Plenty of people expected Harry/Hermione but didn't raise arms when he married Ginny.
I haven't given anything which is OBVIOUS because there isn't anything (which is why I say there is nothing set in stone ie JKR doesn't say he's gay or introduce his husband/boyfriend/partner), I do say SUGGESTS and gave ME the impression. Not the whole world, not you, not everyman and his dog.
I have tried to make clear that I understand not everyone will take this from the book. I have even tried to explain where I got the impression from as you asked. I acknowledge it could be taken EITHER way. You asked me a simple question. Where did I get the impression. I have explained to the best of my ability but you seem reluctant to accept that if something in the book gave that impression then in all likelyhood JKR probably planned it that way. She's very talented in writing different levels in her writing that different readers will interpret in their own unique way. You say yourself that you don't like people saying JKR made Dumbledore gay to make a statement, I don't think any author 'accidentally' makes a character a certain way. I think they either plan it or the character evolves in whichever direction the plot takes. Given this I find it difficult to understand why you seem so vehement that there is nothing in the book to even suggest homosexuality. Or are we assuming I'm the only person in the world who got this impression?
To me, it only takes a bit of common sense to see the relationship between the two is more than platonic and I stand by that comment. I have NEVER said Dumbledore was made gay to prove a point, indeed if you look over any of my comments you will find that I have maintained it makes no odds on the storyline and isn't really relevant.
I'm not interested in an argument so if that's the way this is going then I respectfully request further comments to be aimed at other people. I'm all ears for a discussion, I'm open to further discussion with you. There's nothing I like more than a sensible conversation about conflicting views of a book, to me, that's half the fun of reading. I WILL NOT get into arguments especially over fiction.
Kind Regards.
It’s insulting to suggest that people who didn’t see it your way are lacking in commonsense."To me, it only takes a bit of common sense to see the relationship between the two is more than platonic and I stand by that comment."
"Common sense" equates to the knowledge and experience which most people already have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have."
If your experiences and life are what lead you to believe that Dumbledore was gay, then it is not knowledge or experience that most people have. So stop saying it was common sense. It wasn't.
EXACTLY!!!!!NO MATTER IF HE'S STRAIGHT OR GAY!!!!!!
Ayesha wrote: "It’s insulting to suggest that people who didn’t see it your way are lacking in commonsense."To me, it only takes a bit of common sense to see the relationship between the two is more than platon..."
I'm sorry, how old are you? Originally I assumed between 20's and 30's but for this to dissolve into you presuming to tell a complete stranger what they can and can't say I'm beginning to think teenage years? Have you done a survey to see what experiences people do and don't have? Then how do you know 'most people' don't have the same experiences?
Most people would probably read more into the relationship between two people if they spent every waking moment thinking about each other(a fact which you have failed to address no matter how many times I point it out.) Some people may NOT think this if both of them were of the same gender because it is not something their lives encounter much so why would they consider it.
I will say whatever I please, that is called an opinion and it seems to me that I am not the one refusing to accept the opinions of others. To presume to tell someone what they can and can't say is presumptuous, rude and arrogant.
In your dictionary definition, did you miss the part that says '...,or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have?' Common sense is a subjective term but I can't help but think that you're perseverating over technicalities because you have nothing else to bring to the table? In the last few comments you have gone completely off the subject of 'could these things hint at Dumbledore's sexuality?' to 'I'm offended by the term common sense.' You wrongly quote me as calling you stupid and wrongly quote me as saying JKR made dumbledore gay to make a statement. Really are you just trying to prompt an argument? As I already stated, I'm not interested in it.
As I stated before, I stand by my comments, I won't retract them, I certainly won't have people dictate what I can and cannot say when offering my OPINION. Maybe whilst you're in your dictionary you should look up the terms opinion, suggests and accept, all of which I used numerous times.
I asked you nicely to direct comments elsewhere, you seem adamant on an argument. Why? Accept that we disagree and move on. Of all the comments on here, you find the use of the words 'common sense' offensive?
Good Day.
Nichola said: “I acknowledge it could be taken EITHER way.”Please reread this:
Ayesha said: Meh. I think that could be taken either way.
Nichola said: Sure it could, if one really doen't want to acknowledge the possibility of something more than a platonic relationship.
You have continually throughout this conversation contradicted yourself. I am trying to get some clarification. Either a) “my lifestyle may lead me to question it more easily that someone whose life is not entwined with homosexual friends or family or colleagues.” OR b)” For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay.”
And, yes, I did comment on why I thought D and G spent so much time together: “When I read that he’s got a best friend who lives next door, and who he spends every day talking about politics with and gets so excited about philosophy and magical theory that he has to send an owl in the middle of the night, I think “Wow, even as a teenager, he was a big dork.””
As for “could these things hint at D’s sexuality”, you’ve not listed anything which can’t be taken either way. You keep saying that it could be taken either way, but that everyone should have seen it your way.
I’m not saying that there was nothing in the novels to suggest that Dumbledore was gay, I’m saying that there was nothing in the novels that couldn’t be taken either way. And you were the one who felt the need to shoot me down for saying so.
Edit: Also, I think there is an ignore function. I'm not suggesting you use it, because I would like to hear your response, but if you feel that upset by this, then by all means do.
I haven't felt the need to shoot anyone down. It's clear that either we have a communication error or we can never agree on this. For that reason I won't respond to the points made above. We seem to be going in circles. Both seem to think the other is getting argumentative whilst claiming that neither want it.
I don't feel the need to ignore people vocing opinions, I merely requested your comments be directed elsewhere if all you seek is an argument. Beyond that I will listen and accept most opinions.
Does it really matter if he were gay or not? I don't think it effects the story in any way.
Does it really matter if anyone is gay or not? I don't think it effects our lives in any way, either. :)And no, a teacher's orientation should not be a prominent part of any story-ever.
I didn't know about Dumbledore was susposed to be gay either but who cares. I still love the Harry Potter series and movies! :)
I really hated that she announced that Dumbledore was gay....because none of the teachers had a 'social' or 'sex' life (well maybe a little bit with Hagrid)but the point is it didn't matter to the story. So why say it? Attention? Controversy? Idk. But it seemed pointless to say. Who really cares anyway.
Katy wrote: "I really hated that she announced that Dumbledore was gay....because none of the teachers had a 'social' or 'sex' life (well maybe a little bit with Hagrid)but the point is it didn't matter to the ..."Did she announce it? I can't quite remember, but I was under the impression that she was asked a question about Dumbledore's love life and just answered it honestly because she knows her characters so well. I might be wrong... but I do know what you mean! I for one don't care either - I'll always love the books and movies no matter what. :)
I don't remember how she said it, you could very well be right that it was a question I don't really remember because it seems to me she said it way back in 2007. It was a big deal though, everyone was talking about it!
BUT HE WAS IN LOVE WITH GRINDELWALD AND HIS BEING GAY JUST MAKES THEIR STORY MORE TRAGIC AND LOVELY, OKAY? I'm sorry for capslocking, but I just have so many feels toward this topic. It matters, the revelation because it changed people's perspective toward Dumbledore--sadly, some of them in a bad way. But I usually cover my ears when they comment negatively. As being a wise headmaster and person, it doesn't really change anything.
Katy wrote: "I don't remember how she said it, you could very well be right that it was a question I don't really remember because it seems to me she said it way back in 2007. It was a big deal though, everyone..."Quoting myself from one of my other post because I'm tired of writing it again it different words - I don't blame you for not reading every post in a 4 page discussion though, I wouldn't either but I've been about since the start:
Rowling never made a big deal of it, she announced it when prompted by a fan and made sure the 6th movie left out a fabricated lost female love. Please read her quotes in these articles. It has only ever been her opinion of the character.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/200...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7053982.stm
Ok. For f*** sake could everyone just stop whinging about this? So what Dumbledore's gay, alll it does is give insight into his and Grindelwald's relationship. It doesn't effect the story whatsoever, if it would have had any sort of impact then J.K Rowling, who wrote the book BTW for the many here that don't seem to understand that, would have included it in the book. It doesn't effect his choice in teachers, his choice in who he talks to among the students or how he acts throughout the series. The only thing it changes is how the stupid people writing fanfiction throughout the novel will change Dumbledore's character into a stereotypical homosexual from many years ago when they were assumed as pedophiles as well. Anyone who decides to do that obviously doesn't apppreciate the boooks. Now those that believe this post is offensive, yes i agree that the name of the topic could be interpreted thhe wrong way but it only takes reading a couple of the posts and they would understand that it is not meant as a strike at the homosexual communnity. There really is no "consequence" to Dumbledore being gay because as i said earlier, it was not mentioned in the series therefore had no impact on the overalll storyline. Yes it is hinted at with Grindelwald but that doesn't matter. Dumbledore being gay has about as much influence as if JKR came out and said that Crabbe and Goyle were gay, or if Sameus was gay, or if Cho was gay. None of it matters, if any of the little bits and pieces of extra information that JKR mentioned after the release of the last book were going to have any impact on the books then they would have been included in them initially, because as i believe a few people are missing here, Harry Potter is a make believe series that IS NOT REAL. The entire story was made up in JKR's head with some outside influences, so anything she wishes to add is completely up to her and if she wants anything to be changed majorly then a recall will be sent out on the books.
People that are hating on this topic can just ignore it, you don't need to read it if you are only going to criticize another person's point of view. This topic is merely for one to express their own point of view not to criticize others and tell them they are wrong. Noone's opinion can be wrong because it is their own opinion, another's interpretation of a situation may be correct because of facts but the first person's opinion is still not wrong because it is an opinion. What I'm trying to say is,, all those that are here to criticize another's opinion or argue that Dumbledore is not gay can fuck off. JKR made the Harry Potter universe what it is and she can make or break any part of it, if that makes you dislike her or the books then that's your god damn problem but keep it to yourself because not everyone enjoys listening to your sop-stories.
Ok I'm out, feel free to have a go at me for this but I stand by this.
(Oh and if anyone has a major problem with gays then i dare you to step in the ring with almmost every single one of the world's greatest fghters because they all believe in gay equality)
Ok I'm out
okay,so I don't think it really think it matters if Dumbledore was gay......
it shouldn't make a difference.
so yeah......
just my opinion.
Samantha wrote: "Katy wrote: "I don't remember how she said it, you could very well be right that it was a question I don't really remember because it seems to me she said it way back in 2007. It was a big deal tho..."People made a big deal of it, she knew by saying it that it would be a big deal. Five years later people are still talking about it. I just don't think it was relevant...just seemed like she did it for publicity. Just my opinion.
Katy wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Katy wrote: "I don't remember how she said it, you could very well be right that it was a question I don't really remember because it seems to me she said it way back in 2007. It w..."So you'd prefer she simply lie to the fan that asked her if Dumbledore ever found love? It's not like she can say "yes he did...that's all I'll tell you." Or that she allow the 6th movie to fabricate a lost love story?
Imagine years later somehow it does come out that she imagined him gay while she wrote and everyone finds out she intentionally kept it a secret, we'd all be here debating if she was trying to avoid the outcry, if she thought it wouldn't be accepted, or if she honestly didn't want it to seem like she did it for publicity.
It's a catch 22, in fact almost everything is when you're in the public eye. Especially when you're so wildly popular that a single act has left a legacy that your children's children's children can live off.
Moreover if you had a bunch of people always asking you for more, more, more, these people love you and everything about you wouldn't you want to give them more? Can we really stand back and say a person lacks class when were just a handful of dissenting voices over a riot of encouraging ones?
I'm really not trying to jump to her defence because, honestly, I don't know anything about her and I don't need to like her to love her books - in fact I hate lots of people who make products I enjoy (I drink Coke products when I'm on the run and shop at walmart when I run out of money). I'm just saying that usually when I don't know anything about someone as famous as she is I'm inclined to think that person is probably pretty down to earth.
A big theme of the HP series is accepting people who are different. Another theme is that love trumps bigotry and mindless hatred. I often wondered, while reading the HP books, why there were no gay students or teachers, given the above themes, and given that homosexuality was such a hot topic in the media when the HP books were being published. And then J.K. Rowling announced that Dumbledore was gay, and it all made sense.Rowling's decision to reveal Dumbledore's sexuality after pretty much everyone and their mother had finished reading the series was important. If Rowling had outted Dumbledore in the books, then 1.) the people who most desperately needed to hear the HP books' message of love and tolerance wouldn't have given the series the time of day, and 2.) it gives those same people something they need, something many of them don't have: a gay person who they can see as something other than just someone who's gay. It gives those readers a shot at examining their prejudices and, hopefully, learning from them.
DUMBLEDORE IS GAY??!! Wow i never knew....But it doesn't really matter anyways. But that explains all those times of me thinking why he never had a wife or kids
I always create slash ships when I'm reading books anyway. It's nice when 50% of one comes true once in a while.
There's no 'consequence'.
Who cares if he's gay? Why should there be any more discussion about Dumbledore being gay than about Harry or anyone else being straight? They are human beings, whose characterization is not solely defined by their sexual preference. To me, Dumbledore's homosexuality didn't have any effect whatsoever, because it wasn't important. It made him no better than before, and no worse than before.
Mallory wrote: "Who cares if he's gay? Why should there be any more discussion about Dumbledore being gay than about Harry or anyone else being straight? They are human beings, whose characterization is not solely..."I agree! What does it matter? He is still the amazing person he always was. Learning about his sexuality doesn't change that at all.
Lol I love when discussions pass like 4 pages and new people just start repeating all the stuff that was already said. I bet this one lasts for another 20 with new batches coming in.
I think I might have a new if not small idea to add. Pretty much everything has been said, but one thing I always find interesting in these debates are the people who get distressed thinking that this was just a publicity stunt because Dumbledore never did anything that made him seem gay. That they think it shouldn't have been done just because there was no outright 'proof' in the books of his sexual orientation. Really the problem is those people should just stop assuming that everyone is straight until proven otherwise. Even the characters that have had straight relationships. There is such a thing as being bisexual or pansexual you know. Or maybe looking at it as something more along the lines of the Kinsey scale. Maybe we should just admit that with our evolving understanding of gender and sexual orientation that simply assuming anything about anyone before they expressly tell you is a grave mistake on your part.
Noodles wrote: "I think I might have a new if not small idea to add. Pretty much everything has been said, but one thing I always find interesting in these debates are the people who get distressed thinking that t..."That's a very good point! Assumptions are dangerous things, and can be annoying. Funnily enough, I never assumed anything about Dumbledore - perhaps about other characters, but Dumbledore's sexuality was just something I never thought of because it didn't really effect the story.
Whoa Dumbledore gay?! LMFAO! I really think he is like bi since he and McGonnall seem to hev some type of affair.
Why does it matter? Are the ones who are upset planning on marrying him? Then I would see a dilemma.
:D LOLThat was hilarious, Laura.
Noodles wrote: "I think I might have a new if not small idea to add. Pretty much everything has been said, but one thing I always find interesting in these debates are the people who get distressed thinking that t..."Actually Noodles I don't that has been said - not quite like that in any case. Similar sentiments have thus far been expressed in many ways like caps lock and swear words but, again, not quite like that. It's an excellent point and just like the obnoxious adage about assumptions it really does cause you to put your foot in your mouth when you assume something about a person.
It's unfair and it's how bigotry and steriotypes are formed.
But like Becca said (and I've already said with a few people in the topic) I'm proud to say that pretty much all the characters were, on my first reading at least, sexless. Although the first book is almost entirely populated with children and senior citizens so I suppose that should be a given lol. (not that seniors don't have sex, I've heard that STDs are extemely problematic in old folks' homes but I didn't really think about anyone having sex when I was 13 and first read the books)
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Harry and hermione didn't spend every waking minute thinking of each other and sending owls in the dead of night because they couldn't wait until the next day to see each other did they? If that had been the story line I suspect more people would have questioned the motive behind it.
Please read carefully, I said it was obvious to me, and also point out that my lifestyle may lead me to question it more easily that someone whose life is not entwined with homosexual friends or family or colleagues. Half the joy of a book is that it means different things to different people. The same book can be a completely unique experience to each reader because of their interpretation of the storyline, the way they imagine the characters. I'm not sure how this leads you to a potential obsession with a character? From what I've read of this thread, the only people who care either way about Dumbledore's sexuality are the one's who have a problem with homosexuality.
RE: Grindlewalds feelings, Maybe this could be book 8 :p It's the only informaton I haven't stumbled across, although I have to admit I don't actively seek background information on the characters.
The discussion we're having (from my perspective) is definitely not about right or wrong. I got a definite gay vibe in book 7. You didn't. That's just the way books work. What I'm trying to point out is that if Dumbedore is the only one I questioned in the book, until it was confirmed, then there must have been something in the book to suggest it in the first place? It's generally not something I attribute to a character because gay characters are rarely introduced in mainstream books unless the storyline is specifically linked to sexuality.