Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
the consequence of dumbledore being gay
Anastasia wrote: "I kind of feel like JK only threw it in so it looked like she was being tolerant and modern, when it had no bearing on the story so people couldn't get offended by it and write her angry letters...."
Quoting myself from my last post because I'm tired of writing it again it different words:
Rowling never made a big deal of it, she announced it when prompted by a fan and made sure the 6th movie left out a fabricated lost female love. Please read her quotes in these articles. It has only ever been her opinion of the character.
Dixie wrote: "I still loved the series. I don't think Dumbledore being gay changes anything. It shouldn't at all. There shouldn't even be a discussion on it."I don't know, I think there really should be discussion of it. Having a major character in a hugely popular children's series be gay is...actually kind of a big thing, considering a lot of people still consider homosexuality an 'innapropriate' topic for children to be aware of. Which is why I'm a bit torn about holding it against JKR for not actually mentioning it in the series itself, or at least making it obvious enough that she didn't really need to tell us.
Though, yeah, within the series itself it doesn't really have huge imapct. Dumbledore being in love with Grindelwald does explain some of the stuff he does, but that's not really anything to do with his sexuality.
What is there really to discuss? We don't have a discussion about any of the heterosexual characters' orientations! It's not an issue regardless because a character's orientation has absolutely nothing to do with who they are. I'm glad it wasn't a huge deal for JKR and am surprised it's really such a big deal for some readers.
Dixie wrote: "Lily wrote: "Dixie wrote: "I still loved the series. I don't think Dumbledore being gay changes anything. It shouldn't at all. There shouldn't even be a discussion on it."I don't know, I think th..."
I do agree with most of that, actually. I didn't really mean that it would be a Big New Thing that will change children's perception of the world, if that's what it seemed like? I was saying that including gay characters in children's media helps to get rid of the idea that they shouldn't know about it, and that it's in some way unsuitable for them. It's pretty rare to see in stuff aimed at kids, which is why I was saying that it was a big deal, and that it would have been nice for it to have been more obvious within the books themselves.
I would think making no big deal about anyone's sexuality sends a bigger message than pointing it out.
Jeni wrote: "I would think making no big deal about anyone's sexuality sends a bigger message than pointing it out."I'm not totally sure you're speaking to me, but there's a difference between not making a big deal out of a character's sexuality and not referencing it at all. You could easily read the books and not have any idea Dumbledore was gay, but Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Snape, and pretty much every other major character are pretty hard to read as anything other than straight.
I think that Dumbledore being gay adds a new level to the character, as does all the new info on Pottermore. But I don't think that everyone has to love all the new things JKR has been saying. I'm torn between loving the fact that there's all this new stuff about the characters and hating it. Once the book is in the hands of the reader, it's supposed to be about how the reader sees it, how the reader interprets the characters. She knows them best, but differently, because she's never read her books the way a reader would. She can't. Anyway, that's how I feel about it.
Thank you, Caroline, but i still think that kid's literature should not have gay or lesbian people in it.
I think that to kids reading it, Dumbledore wasn't gay, he was just Dumbledore. That's why I'm not happy JKR later said he was, because what doesn't happen in the books should be up to the reader. It's their job to read between the lines. But why don't you think there shouldn't be gay or lesbian people in children's literature? They're just people.
I'm sorry but I'm a kid and was brought up being taught that that being gay is against God's will.
My religion (I'm Catholic) says that being gay is wrong. But some customs (for example, not allowing women to become priests), I think were developed just because that was expected at the time, not because it was against God's will, and that's why I think the bible says being gay is wrong. I disagree with that, and I think the bigger part is loving and accepting people. What religion are you? I'm interested to hear why you think being gay is bad. I'm a kid too (14), and I just saw on your profile that you like writing! Me too! What sort of stuff have you written? I've done some fiction and poetry.
I know you were, sorry, that part of the comment was directed towards Gabrielle, I should've said that.
Caroline wrote: "My religion (I'm Catholic) says that being gay is wrong. But some customs (for example, not allowing women to become priests), I think were developed just because that was expected at the time, not..."I'm sorry my mom says that i can't gie out religious info online. i write poetry and songs mostly but want to become an author. Having writing block, though, which i guess might be normal at my age. :) i do get top scores in writing at school all the time, not to brag.
I like that JKR had this character's orientation in mind, but chose not to highlight it. It sends the message that people are people and are not defined by who they love. It's just not a big deal. It should not be a big deal. The fact remains that it didn't matter to the story because, just like real life, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter.
Faith: That's fine, it doesn't matter. Cool that your a lit major! Gabrielle: Writer's block is the worst! I just got over my month-long block several hours ago and I feel so much better!
Jeni: I agree completely.
Jeni wrote: "The fact remains that it didn't matter to the story because, just like real life, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. "Absolutely!
Sorry but what the hell does his sexual orientation have anything to do with the story itself? The only reason Rowling revealed his homosexuality was because somebody on the movie staff wanted to put a corny plot line about how he was in love with some woman. This only affects the world of fanfiction where writers desperately hold onto the McGonagall and Dumbledore pairing.
Caroline wrote: "I think that Dumbledore being gay adds a new level to the character, as does all the new info on Pottermore. But I don't think that everyone has to love all the new things JKR has been saying. I'm ..."But this is all supplemental info that fans can go looking for if they want to. She's not running around and gathering up all the released HP books and scratching things out and writing into the margins à la George Lucas. She's officially announced many things as cannon but if it doesn't sit anywhere inside the novels why does it have to affect the way you enjoy it? Or anyone.
Dakota wrote: "I refuse to believe that. If so, that would very well ruin the story for me. It's a children's book, there is no need to be political or down right inappropriate with it."Your an idiot, there is nothing inappropriate or political about a character being gay.
Dakota wrote: "This thread breeds hate...let's just stop and be nice."Dakota wrote: "I do not believe that my comment was offensive. The title of the thread is "the CONSEQUENCE of Dumbledore being gay" if anything the title is offensive as it alludes to the fact that him being gay ..."
Shouldn't have started it, that's your consequence.
Gabrielle wrote: "Okay, that's crap. Dumbledore is wonderful and HE IS NOT GAY. YOU HAVE GOT IT WRONG. Dumbledore is a perfectly respectable normal human being. No exceptions. And I think that he + McGonnagol would..."So you are saying that gays are not respectable or normal, you are a hateful bigot.
Gabrielle wrote: "I'm sorry but I'm a kid and was brought up being taught that that being gay is against God's will."So learn to think for yourself instead of having others do it for you.
Hi all...Where have you read/seen that Dumbledore is gay?
I have just finished the ready chapters of pottermore, since I thought JKR had written it there, but there was nothing about Dumbledore...
Please inlighten me, I wanna know what JKR have said/written...
-_- if you just went through this discussion you would see that many people have stated JK Rowling said it in an interview
Yes, but people don't say which one...I would like to hear what she said, not what people are saying about what she said...
I'm sure you could Google it.
I have, and nothing from JKR came up, only a lot of threads like this one...
She said it during an interview in New York. This link has more info and some quotes from her discussing it.
Thanks, that's better than anything I have could find...
Wait. He's gay?! :O
I, for one, was not bothered by Dumbledore being gay at all. I mean, I kind of liked the image of him and Mcgonagall dancing together at the Yule Ball, but I only ever saw them as very good friends, rather than potentially in a "romance" as some of you have alluded to. In any case, it doesn't upset the story in my view, and i'm not prejudiced, so it doesn't bother me in the least.
You guys realize that in the book McGonnagal is described as having dark hair. She's not actually old in the books, in fact she's probably only in her 50s while Dumbledore is elderly in appearance and older than that besides.
According to the Master Timeline on the HP Lexicon, McGonnagal was born on October 4, 1925. That would make her a contemporary of Tom Riddle's at Hogwart's.
Jeni wrote: "According to the Master Timeline on the HP Lexicon, McGonnagal was born on October 4, 1925. That would make her a contemporary of Tom Riddle's at Hogwart's."Thanks for that, it's quite interesting! That would mean Harry's first year of Hogwarts she would have been 66, right? I checked on the same site, and that says that Dumbledore was born in 1881! That would make him 110 in Harry's first year at Hogwarts! Wow, I had no idea that wizards lived so long (unless my calculations are really off somehow :D).
Jeni wrote: "Here's the link for more fascinating facts: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/t..."Cool...
Anastasia wrote:" I kind of feel like JK only threw it in so it looked like she was being tolerant and modern, when it had no bearing on the story so people couldn't get offended by it and write her angry letters."Or, like a lot of writers, she had an extensive understanding of Albus' character history, far beyond what was ever included in the canon. And, when asked a direct question about Albus' romantic life, she answered honestly.
"If he's going to be gay, let him be gay. Show some evidence. Hell, show evidence of any other gay couple anywhere in the book. "
....What kind of evidence (other than actually having sex) would prove that any given person was gay rather than straight?
Ayesha wrote: "Anastasia wrote:" I kind of feel like JK only threw it in so it looked like she was being tolerant and modern, when it had no bearing on the story so people couldn't get offended by it and write he..."Totally agree with everything you said :). "Evidence" just wouldn't have been right in a Harry Potter book - it just wasn't the main focus of the story anywhere.
....What kind of evidence (other than actually having sex) would prove that any given person was gay rather than straight? "...There are kind of a lot of ways to show that a character isn't straight without them having sex with someone.
It doesn't really bother me much, but it would have been nice if the books made it a bit more obvious. It really wouldn't have been as much of a challenge as some people here seem to think.
Jeni wrote: "According to the Master Timeline on the HP Lexicon, McGonnagal was born on October 4, 1925. That would make her a contemporary of Tom Riddle's at Hogwart's."Thanks Jeni! I was half asleep on my way to bed so I didn't have the motivation to check my facts first lol. All I knew was that the hair was in the book mentioned at one point and I knew without a doubt that there was a significant age difference.
Not that this HAD to stand in the way of any real romance because love is not beholden to age, just that it was less the perfect fairy tale relationship most of the people mentioning it seemed to think.
Ayesha wrote: "Anastasia wrote:" I kind of feel like JK only threw it in so it looked like she was being tolerant and modern, when it had no bearing on the story so people couldn't get offended by it and write he..."I agree with you, it's baffling to me how many people in this discussion don't seem to understand an author's relationship to his or her characters. Do people really think every last thing is written on the pages of the book? I have pages upon pages of backstory and personality traits for my characters, everything from meyers/briggs personality type to what each would do in a given situation. These are not things I'll be including in the actual writing of the story, just the necessary facts to add depth to my own understanding so I can give them life more thoroughly and maintain their consistency.
Lily wrote: "...There are kind of a lot of ways to show that a character isn't straight without them having sex with someone. .... It really wouldn't have been as much of a challenge as some people here seem to think."Such as? I'm absolutely serious here. Name one way in which an author can definitely prove that a character is homosexual without that character actually engaging in homosexual sex? (Aside from announcing in dialogue that he/she is gay.)
Thank you Samantha. I get a little tired of people suggesting that JKR was trying to prove a point by acknowledging that one of her characters was gay. Not only is it insulting to people who actually are gay, it's demeaning to JKR, who put years of work into creating these characters and by her own admission cares deeply for them.
Margarita wrote: "This discussion topic should be deleted
because its stupid and a little offensive to those who are gay/lesbians. There weren't any consequences caused by Doumbledore being gay. His sexuality di..."
Easy tiger! Getting so wound up generally just attracts more harassment and homophobia. I'm gay, but I don't find this thread offensive. At the very most it's naive. For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay, especially in the later books where JKR gives more details about the interactions of the younger dumbledore and grindlewald. (Also, on a side note people do not choose who to love that kinda just happens. I'm happy in my own skin, I won't hide who I am and certainly won't try to be anyone else. Would I deliberately choose a life which leaves me vulnerable to prejudice, hate and inequality? Of course not, who would? But none the less this is who I am and if people don't like it tough. This is the way you should be defending your friends, they don't need the approval of strangers to be themselves although i'm sure they appreciate your support. Don't let people get to you in this manner it's so not worth it.)
As for how it affects the story line, it doesn't. McGonagall fell in love with a muggle (may have been muggle born) in her youth. Her parents put a stop to it and she never moved on from her broken heart :'( so a romance between the two would be out of the question (info taken from pottermore.) As for the trolls / homophobes, I'm sure JKR really doesn't care whether they do or do not approve of her characters sexuality and has several hundred million reasons not to!
Nichola wrote: "For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay, especially in the later books where JKR gives more details about the interactions of the younger dumbledore and grindlewald."I totally did not get that when I read the books. It's been a while since I've read them, but I don't remember anything that indicated more than a platonic friendship. What section are you referring to?
Ayesha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay, especially in the later books where JKR gives more details about the i..."Mostly, the hints from Rita Skeeter and his conversation with harry in book 7.
They boys spent all day together then couldn't wait to share ideas with each other until the next day so sent owls late at night. They were inseparable. Then Dumbledore - generally portrayed a decisive man unafraid to take action - put off facing grindlewald in a duel until he could no longer avoid facing it. The only motivation I know of for people spending this amount of time together, (including being unable to wait until the next day to speak after spending a whole day together) is, quite simply, love. Why else would dumbledore put off a duel with him after the way he was behaving yet act quite proptly against voldemort? (as stated on the platform when Harry 'died'.) Grindlewald was described as the second most evil wizard in history with only Voldy coming above him yet Dumbledore's actions towards the two are so different.
There is nothing set in stone in the book, but it really wasn't a shock to me when JKR announced it. It's possible my own life would lead me to consider the possibility of a gay relationship more readily but to me, it really was obvious when his interactions with Grindlewald were described in more detail.
Nichola wrote: "Ayesha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay, especially in the later books where JKR gives more deta..." Meh. I think that could be taken either way.
Ayesha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Ayesha wrote: "Nichola wrote: "For anyone who read the book and used even just an ounce of common sense, it's obvious that Dumbledore is gay, especially in the later books where JKR..."Sure it could, if one really doen't want to acknowledge the possibility of something more than a platonic relationship. Put the shoe on the other foot. If the interactions were described between a male/female couple would you think differently?
Given that JKR later acknowledged that it was indeed more than a platonic relationship, I think it's safe to assume that I took it the right way. The only thing JKR didn't clarify (to my knowledge) was Grindlewalds feelings towards Dumbledor.
Nichola wrote: "Sure it could, if one really doen't want to acknowledge the possability of something more than a platonic relationship. Put the shoe on the other foot. If the interactions were described between a male/female couple would you think differently? "You mean if a 14 or 15 year old boy spent most hours of his day with a 14 or 15 year old girl and was often alone with her or stayed up late talking to her. And if Rita Skeeter wrote an article suggesting there was more going on? All through book 4 Harry and Hermione had platonic friendship.
Nichola wrote: "Given that JKR later acknowledged that it was indeed more than a platonic relationship, I think it's safe to assume that I took it the right way."
It's not about right or wrong, but simply about reading what is written. I'm reluctant to read between the lines, or base my assumptions about characters on my own life, because that leads to people being obsessed with Harry/Hermione or convinced that Dumbledore can't be gay. If you want to do that, fine, have at it, but you can't declare that it was obvious when clearly (see this entire thread) it wasnt.
Nichola wrote: "The only thing JKR didn't clarify (to my knowledge) was Grindlewalds feelings towards Dumbledor."
I'm actually curious about that too. I'd like to know if Dumbledore ever made his feelings known to Grindlewald, or, if not, why.
I don't think there is ever a right or wrong in how one enjoys a book, Nichola and Ayesha you both liked the book didn't you? Personally I didn't read a homosexual relationship there because I was quite a bit younger and things that were commonplace to me then are drastically different from now. When I heard the announcement though I facepalmed at how much nuance I missed.Though I agree with both sides, it certainly bespeaks romantic love but Harry Potter is very much about true love in all of its forms, platonic, romantic, befuddling etc. And the love that grew between any and all characters was all kinds of different so no, I certainly don't think the things written about Dumbledore are inescapably homosexual, no more so than any other loving reltionship in the series is all black and white.
I think it would be a very great shame to read a book and not read between the lines at all though. I love to do it! When I find hints here and there that what I had previously thought seemed less likely I revamp my theory and so on. I can't imagine my reading experience lacking this extra layer.
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Mcgonagall is around 30-60 years younger than dumbledore ( the mans ancient) plus dumbledore is still just as respectable as ever even if he is gay. There's nothing wrong with it