Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion
Practical Pagan
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The World of Dreams, Sleep Paralysis (SP) and Lucid Dreaming
I think it sounds amazing, Nell! :):)
Wow! What an inspiring story. I wouldn't mind one of those experiences, as I'm currently burning the candle at both ends, and I suspect such a sensation, would be an excellent soporific.
Just remembered this little verse by Edna St. Vincent Millay...:)My candle burns at both ends
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh my friends -
It gives a lovely light!
I also had a dream after my own journey Nell. I was standing on a pinnacle in a futuristic world. It was like a sort of finger of stone, and there were two other people with me, (also meditators). Suddenly one of them said to me, "Aaron, look at the sky, they've changed the colours of it. When I looked I saw an entirely new starscape, projected on the dome of the sky. I felt vertigo, and had to lie down on the platform, but the man who had spoken took my hand, and said, "lets fly", and I was like, "No I don't want to fly, I have vertigo, and I don't know how," But he kept pulling my hand, and said, "No, it's okay, they've turned off the gravity." and dragged me off the pinnacle. Floating down, down down, to the earth, we reached the valleys below. This part of my dream became strange because I started to hear a sort of narrative voice which was explaining what was happening to civilization on earth. The act of meddling with gravity had actually made everything perversely heavier, and people had started to live in giant tanks, and tractors, and begun to quarrel amongst each other. I saw tractor and tanks sort of dueling. There were mounds and mounds of rubble in all directions, and the tanks were getting bigger and bigger, to adjust for the levels of gravity which were increasing. Finally the narrative voice explained that it was the end of days, and I saw the last giant yellow tank fold in on itself.
But there were survivors. The lighter people wanted to make for the sky again. They were mostly children and teenagers, and began chanting, "To the sky forever, to the sky forever." A giant nozzle came down from the sky, and the children started running towards it and being sucked up to the heavens.
My friend, (not a real friend, but a dream friend) grabbed my arm and said, "wait, I'm not ready to go yet, there's a relic around here somewhere that I need." I knew he was talking about a weapon, but I agreed to stay with him. In this part of the dream I was a girl. I also new that there was a bad man from the older society who also wanted the weapon, and we were going to be in danger. It would be the task of the girl to defeat him.
The "relic" was a giant stone lance, which my friend had managed to obtain, and we were running from the bad man. There was a chamber with a vertical sliding stone door which we had to get through. My friend hit the floor and rolled under the portal. I knew myself, that I would have to be clever, and not go in too fast. I had to defeat the bad man, so I feigned weakness. I slowed down, and as I slipped under the door, I allowed the bad man to grab my ankle. As he grabbed it, I yanked it suddenly under the door, trapping his wrist as the door shut forever, and I heard him scream.
Then I emerged into a new courtyard. This was part of the house where I'm staying now, but it looked considerably different. There were gardens with rambling roses and ruined stone structures (which are sadly not available at my current place). I once again made an attempt to reach the upper levels. My landlord had constructed a strange brick tower, like a sort of pointless chimney in the center of the garden. I developed a desire to climb this, and at first it looked quite sturdy. I thought I was being clever, avoiding the rickety bits, but I soon realised that the whole thing was wobbly. When I reached the top, the whole thing started snaking. I was terrified of falling, just as I had been terrified of flying before. But suddenly I became tired of the terror, and decided to embrace the fall. I wrapped my arms around the bricks and went down with it. I made a conscious effort to control the fall so that the ridiculous structure would not damage the main house. I didn't want to anger my landlords. I succeeded in going down with the tower, with minor injury to myself, and without the bricks touching anything else in the garden. When the landlords heard the commotion, they came outside, and I was worried they'd come to reprimand me, but the daughter had brought healing herbs for my scrapes and cuts, and told me to rub them on the abrasions.
Whew, that was a long post. I'll come back to give some of my understanding of this dream in a while, but I'd love to hear you guys' input first.
Aaron that's an amazing dream, and miraculous that you're able to remember so much detail and the order of events. Thanks for posting. The first thing that strikes me is that this is either the seed of a fantasy novel or a short story - you're relating events as they happened, and now you've recorded them you're free to concentrate on wonderful atmospheric descriptions. I think it would be very rewarding and well worth doing, and I'd love to read the result.
As for the meaning of the dream, I'm at a loss for the moment - it's all so overwhelming - but I'll peruse and return later with thoughts (if any...!)
Aaron, back after reading your dream a couple more times, but apart from the obvious interpretation (a deep-seated concern about the future of the planet and a desire to be the hero/heroine who overcomes fears to save it) I've no other insights - certainly nothing nicely mystical, unfortunately.
Well my own sense of the dream was that any kind of ascension has to do with the desire to reach the divine, in other words, spiritual evolution. The density and gravity of the tractors and tanks (and there was also a lot of earth being turned over in these sequences), seemed to me to have something to do with devolution. It could even refer to a descent into sensuality, or ego. My sense is that the more one gets involved with material concerns, the more ego is required, thus the tanks musts needs increase their size, but overindulgence in ego is self defeating.
Once again, the only recourse is a return to innocence, and spiritual nourishment. "To the sky forever", but as usual, the ego wants to cheat, and retain some vestige of power. We mustn't leave without the stone lance. The female intuitive power has the sense that this is not totally useful, and that the boy hero is not being totally forthright, but she uses her knowledge to outwit the predator, without even revealing her plan to the hero. What a gal!
The brick tower reminds me of the Sixteenth trump in the tarot deck. That tower also must fall, and is usually described as an intellectual ideal, or some sort of mental construct of principals and morals. The challenge is how to disassemble it, (when it has become redundant) without causing harm. We often use morals and ideals to try and reach the divine, but at a certain point, they show their limitations.
I'd like to have a better notion of what the first symbol meant. The projected image on the sky. When I saw it I actually knew it was another solar system, which was being broadcast from somewhere else, seemingly for the sheer purpose of entertainment, which I remember struck me as frivolous in the dream.
Note: in traditional Jungian psychology, it it the girl who knows how to defeat the psychic predator, but the boy who must defeat him, if he can be bothered to listen to her. In this dream she took it upon herself.
'To the sky forever' is rather beautiful, but sadly reminiscent of the cult that believed the world would end and they'd depart on a comet. Rather than the tarot tower, yours reminded me of the Jumpta Minara or shaking minarets (there were two, somewhere in India, I can't remember where). We were taken up to the top, whereupon our Indian guides stamped until the tower shook crazily. It was fairly scary. later we learned that one had fallen down - hopefully with no one on it.
Returning to your dream though, your thoughts all fit very well, and you know yourself and your concerns better than anyone else but it all seems almost too neat.
The projected image could be a message telling the people below that there were other worlds now they'd made theirs uninhabitable. 'To the sky forever...'
An amazing dream, Aaron! Sounds like the end of an era on earth, and the beginning of a new one.
The projected image could be a message telling the people below that there were other worlds now they'd made theirs uninhabitable."Ooh yes, I like that Nell. I actually had never heard about the Jumpta Minaras. That's really fascinating. I'll have to research them.
My interpretation seemed too neat to me too Nell. That's why I like to have you guys' input. They say you shouldn't read the cards for yourself either, because when you're very practiced at it, you tend to box it up too quickly, not to mention the danger of subconsciously bending the interpretation to your will.
Nell, I have to tell you that my roommate was so impressed with your knowledge of the minaras, that he's asked me to ask you about his dream of last night, which just happens to fall on the equinox. (This is the guy who refers to you as "The Grand High Witch")He was carrying the palanquin of his goddess on his back on the path to his old school. It was daytime. His Goddess is a Yogini, an unmarried sort of sorceress Goddess. The unmarried Goddesses are considered more powerful, and wilder. On the path he encountered a ghost, who began troubling him. In the interests of saving his Goddess, from the taint of the ghost, he split open his chest, and concealed three idols inside. The image of his Goddess, the image of Lord Shiva, and the image of his village deity. He doesn't remember what happened with the ghost, but he does remember that he reached his destination safely with all the idols.
Georgina wrote: "An amazing dream, Aaron! Sounds like the end of an era on earth, and the beginning of a new one."Thank you Gina. Yes, the narrative voice was basically saying as much, and I had that feeling as well. I suppose you've all heard about the theory that in forty thousand years, this solar system will close down, and new life will start in the system of Andromeda. That's a topic for another thread though.
I like the sound of that new thread! Please feel free to start a new topic posting for it, Aaron. :D
Aaron, I only knew about the Jumpta Minaras because we travelled through India for a couple of months on our way home from Africa. We were heading for Nepal, but Pakistan were planning to close their borders so we had to cut short the trip and make a dash for it (in an ancient Kombi). Goodness knows how we made it back to the UK relatively unscathed - many adventures on the way though.I like your roommate's dream - will think about it while walking the terrier this morning.
And I still can't get over his title for me :)
Well he really believes in you. He might have gotten confused when I was trying to explain the particularities of a moderator, and also a pagan priestess, or a witch. But I think it's a fateful event that he has dubbed you the Grand High Witch!
Perhaps he shouldn't put too much faith in my abilities Aaron, but these are my thoughts for what they're worth.I think the Goddess represents all that he is at the deepest levels of his heart, his psyche and instinct (or maybe ego). He's carrying her palanquin on his back because in a way she (and what she represents) can sometimes be difficult - maybe even a burden. Yet she is in the palanquin, indicating that he is bearing her with ceremony and pride back to his old school, which is likely to represent his youth and the influences that were brought to bear on him as a child and a younger person. It may be that your roommate intends to reveal his true self to those who exerted some influence on him in his childhood and youth, perhaps even judged him.
The ghost obviously (to me, anyway...!) represents a threat - a fear of criticism by someone or others in his past (someone perhaps he'd left behind and almost forgotten) of what the goddess represents, a doubt that he can carry though his plan of revealing himself to them without damage to his heart, psyche and possibly ego too.
So he splits open his chest and conceals three idols inside - heart, psyche and ego? - but in any case three is a magical and significant number as I expect he knows.
He continues his journey and reaches his destination with all that he is hidden once more - completely concealed and safe from judgement and criticism inside himself.
The dream may be a warning not to reveal all to older relatives or influences, but if he can relate to any of the above he'll know what to do.
Wow! You ARE the Grand High Witch. No, seriously. I understand why you don't want to own the title, but that interpretation is extremely brilliant. I don't think he's so aware of the power of three, as we are, but he can quickly grasp it. It's quite insightful, what you said. I'd supposed that the ghost might represent the past, but I'd not thought of the notion of criticism, and as he did leave school when he was young, he's probably quite afraid of it. If the word "witch" symbolises compassion and wisdom, then I believe you are it Nell, and Gina too. Big hugs, and happy Equinox. Your Aaron.
Happy Equinox, Aaron, the glorious Sun is returning. I'm happy to help, even if only a little.
Oh dear, I'm so slack. Missing lovely posts and all. Happy belated Autumn Equinox (from Australia) too. Winter's coming and I kind of like that too. When it's cold it's good to have the excuse to come inside earlier. Best to you both and I think the GHW title suits Nell well too. :)
Georgina wrote: "and I think the GHW title suits Nell well too. :) "Eek...!
Spring or no Spring it's damned cold here - North/East Winds and the thin snow today gave way to sleet. We need some warmth soon!
Re. chamomile and its banishment of nightmares, I've been drinking a cup before bed since my chamomile post and it does seem to be true, but there may be an unexpected side-effect. I became lucid in a dream the other night and tried to fly, but couldn't get off the ground....
Nell, I suspect that if you do a meditation, in which you visualise yourself flying, before you go to bed, you'll be able to fly in the dream. No guarantees, but it's a thought.
I'll try the visualization, Aaron. This has never happened to me before - I've always been able to fly if I realize I'm dreaming, which is why I'm blaming the chamomile.
That's so frustrating. It happens to me when I question that I'm flying. I lose my confidence and fall. I was far better at it as a child. I love the sensation of flying. I suspect I'll be able to do it again, and well, on my death bed. The pre visualisation idea is good though, I may have to try that too.
I had nightmares all night and woke up crabby. Think I'll try the chamomile tonight.
I had nightmares all night and woke up crabby. Think I'll try the chamomile tonight.
There must be quite a lot happening in your subconscious to be getting so many nightmares Gina. Personally I'd be curious to see what would happen if you dragged the pond, (wrote them all down). It's a lot of work though. You might find there'd be less of them if you externalised though. There are a number of interpretations about flying. Some people see it as a sexual thing, but I think that only counts if it's in an airplane. Since humans don't actually have the ability to fly, I've always seen unassisted flying in dreams as a kind of spiritual symbol. The attempt to go beyond one's physical limitations. The attempt to reach the sky, the divine.
Fingers crossed you'll be nightmare free tonight, Gina. Aaron wrote: The attempt to go beyond one's physical limitations. The attempt to reach the sky, the divine.
If you're right about this, it strikes me that it's not only an attempt to go beyond one's physical limitations, but an amazingly (if not miraculously) realistic way to imagine and bring to (seeming?) reality the physical sensations of flying exactly. It seems almost too real to have been imagined. I often wonder how we can do this.
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before (apologies if so), but I once flew (hurtled would be a better description) down an unknown city alley at night, misjudged slightly and brushed my left ankle against the wall...! How ever did I imagine that one, let alone the physical sensations...
I'm not sure about reaching the divine either - I often fly low with no attempt to rise.
Re. the sexual interpretation, surely each dream experience (or those of different dreamers) will originate from different parts of the psyche - if indeed, that is where they originate...
Well it's interesting that you say that Nell, because indeed the skill of flying always seems instinctual to me in dreams. But then so does the sensation of running on all fours. If you believe in reincarnation, it's possible that we still remember being different animals in former lives on a subconscious level, and those skills rise to the surface when we dream.
I do believe in reincarnation, Aaron, and wondered about past lives in a different form too. But I've never dreamed of running on all fours, or even considered it. How odd. Food for thought...
I always end up on all fours when I'm running in dreams. I also dreamt that I was a dog, and was amazed by my ability to wag my tail. :D
As a child I had recurring dreams of living in a shell in a warm, shallow sea. Could have been womb memories. I tend to have very weird dreams.
As a child I had recurring dreams of living in a shell in a warm, shallow sea. Could have been womb memories. I tend to have very weird dreams.
I haven't specifically dreamt of running on all fours, but I remember one time when I was almost asleep, I was between states, and I had the sensation of running like a cheetah, and I remember being surprised that it didn't feel strange not to have fingers. The sensation of paws on soil, was actually very satisfying.
Georgina wrote: "I always end up on all fours when I'm running in dreams. I also dreamt that I was a dog, and was amazed by my ability to wag my tail. :DAs a child I had recurring dreams of living in a shell in a warm, shallow sea. Could have been womb memories. "
Warmth, protection and security - sounds blissful.
I've just remembered some advice from one of Nick Barrett's books - maybe Dreamscape How to Lucid Dream with ease Vol.1, in which he says that to ask yourself if you're awake or dreaming when you think of it is a good habit to encourage lucidity, because after a while you'll be asking it in dreams too, and that will mean the end of nightmares.
Aaron wrote: "I haven't specifically dreamt of running on all fours, but I remember one time when I was almost asleep, I was between states, and I had the sensation of running like a cheetah, and I remember bein..."Those in between states are so precious.
Here's one that proved true. Three nights ago: I was given a bouquet of flowers, sealed at the top. When I opened it a mass of bull ants scurried out. I realised that the person who had given it to me had intended it this way. It was disguised as a gift, but was in fact dangerous. I confronted the giver, who merely looked at me with a vague, slightly mad smile.
I woke up. Checked my emails. Found the ant ridden flowers in among them. However I was forewarned by my dream, and saw the inherent dangers.
I am now avoiding suspicious gifts. :)
Nell wrote: "I must share this now I've time to write a decent post. I awoke in the night on Saturday and lay listening to the radio, which was still on very low. After a little while and (as far as I can tel..."
I've just finished reading DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and think I now have the answer to my post above and to other odd experiences that have occurred just on the cusp of wakefulness and sleep.
DMT is made naturally in the body, usually at times of great stress, and the author (a doctor who conducted a DMT research programme on 60 volunteers), believes it's responsible for Out-of-Body and Near-Death Experiences. Many of the volunteers described having 'vibrations' just as the drug began to take effect. Since I've never taken a psychedelic drug (or even used any other non-medically), 're-experience' (as I've been told can sometimes happen with LSD) can't be to blame.
Interesting...
The book doesn't really investigate or mention (as far as I can remember) the possibility that DMT may be responsible for dreams, only that the experiences of the subjects were 'realer than real'. Dreams can feel real too, but there's definitely a different quality to the odd happenings and lucid dreams I've experienced.
I shall have to find a copy of this one. Looks fascinating Nell. Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind spoke of the Amazonian brew from which DMT is derived. The author quaffed it down. Brave or foolhardy, not sure which. :)
Both, I'd say. Apparently the brew has to be made with the addition of other plants that override the stomach's ability to stop the hallucinogenic reaching the brain - I wonder how they worked that out? Some time ago I saw a BBC programme with the adventurer/presenter undergoing an ayahuasca experience with a tribe in the Amazon - he was incredibly sick during the process.
Both, I'd say. Apparently the brew has to be made with the addition of other plants that override the stomach's ability to stop the hallucinogenic reaching the brain - I wonder how they worked that out? Some time ago I saw a BBC programme with the adventurer/presenter undergoing an ayahuasca experience in the Amazon - he was incredibly sick during the process.
Just found a clip from another programme with the same guy - Bruce Parry. Once was clearly not enough...
Just found the original programme - Amazon with Bruce Parry. The relevant part begins at 27.32.
An interesting BBC Horizon about dreams. The bit about the experiment on animals early on is thankfully short. I honestly don't know how they can do such things.
Nell wrote: "Both, I'd say. Apparently the brew has to be made with the addition of other plants that override the stomach's ability to stop the hallucinogenic reaching the brain - I wonder how they worked that..."I felt that the author Graham Hancock was walking an extremely fine line between a NDE type experience and the real thing. He kept pushing the limit, going back for more brew in order to travel deeper and longer. I thought he was forcing it, and somehow it seemed a little disrespectful to me. I'm still reading it mind you, it's a bloody big book.
Okay I just watched that Bruce Parry clip and I must say it was disgusting. Gah. :) I'll admit I have had similar experiences, enough to give me an idea of what's going on in his head. And his stomach. :0
Haven't watched the BBC one yet, must go and settle my own stomach and take a few deep breathes...
Interestingly, the addition of other plants to enable the stomach to accept the active ingredients of the ayahuasca wasn't mentioned in the BBC documentary - I read that in the Rick Straussman book. Maybe that's why he was sooooooooooooooooo sick. The tribe he was with also drink a tea each morning that makes them vomit. Yikes...
Hancock talked about the vomiting too. It sounded like a reflex action to the poisons. Paintings of the visions seen while under the influence of the brew, are pretty amazing:http://www.google.com.au/search?q=pai...
Little wrote: "I'm still reading it mind you, it's a bloody big book."I couldn't get through it. I put it down thinking I'd return to it but never did.
Hancock strikes me as a pretty "push my way through it" kind of guy. I've read other books by him and my impression, which is mine (ahem) and only that, is that he's very focused on achieving what he wants to achieve, rather than letting an experience unfold and show him what...it wants. If you get my drift.
I could be very wrong about that, of course.
Minsma wrote: "Little wrote: "I'm still reading it mind you, it's a bloody big book."I couldn't get through it. I put it down thinking I'd return to it but never did.
Hancock strikes me as a pretty "push my w..."
Yes, I put my copy down about six months ago, keep meaning to go back...
I think you have it in a nutshell about Hancock, Minsma, he pushes. He doesn't seem to approach it with the care and reverence of a shaman, nor one who undergoes the process in order to progress spirituality, or reconnect with ancestors. Pushy is definitely the word for it.
Amazing images, Gina. Apart from the strangeness, the common denominators seem to be vibrant colour and incredibly intricate detail.
Nell wrote: "Amazing images, Gina. Apart from the strangeness, the common denominators seem to be vibrant colour and incredibly intricate detail."Serpents, jaguars, celestial winged beings and other less friendly entities seem to abound too. They are amazing aren't they?
More vision art, this time by Robert Venosa: Ayahuasca Vision: http://solpurpose.com/wp-content/uplo...
Hi! I'm new here! I've read lots of posts, found some "to-read" books and I noticed lots of sharing with great comments. So I will share as well.Although I suffer from sleep paralysis for 8 years now, the searching for information is quite new, so I don't know yet much about it. I will keep reading, specially on the "lucid dreams" you guys are talking about.
My SP were very "classic", I mean... The evil presence, the touching, the fear... Many people had exactly the same hallucinations I did.
But since I started reading more, the evil presence seemed to have disapeared, and yet, I can't help feeling panic, go figure...
The strongest SP wasn't the scariest, but it went like this: I was really sleeping and dreaming. I was in a house full of dogs and I saw my mother's and mine (both dead now). As I saw my dog I said to myself "Alecrim!" (her name), and immediately I said, "of course you can see her, you are dreaming".
As I went out I looked at the sky and saw sattelites very close, I wanted to take a picture of it and came back to the house to grab a camera.
Then I was sucked down back to my body and the SP began. No evil presence, but I panic as I couldn't move. I grabbed the telephone with the one single move I was able to do, but it was invisible. I could feel all the buttons with my fingers. (I always call my partner for rescue when having an attack).
I knew was awake, because my partner wasn't at home and I knew it. The telephone was really by my side, I was totally aware of my surroundings and the real world. I just couldn't move.
Eventually the SP finished, but I spent the whole day with my sense of reality lost. It felt like the world is an illusion, that this is not the real life. Also it hurt being with Alecrim and not having made the most of it: I want to tell her how much I miss her, how much she gave me more than I gave her. And I cried for the whole day.
That was one I will never forget.
It's good that reading has helped with the presence - knowledge is power - and interesting that you were lucid (you knew you were dreaming) in the first part of the SP experience. I know I'm dreaming when I'm flying or feel as if I can fly - it seems likely that you knew you were dreaming because you remembered that your dog had moved on to another plane.As for the world being an illusion, I guess there may be truth in that it may simply be one sort of reality. Being able to see other kinds of (possible) reality while awake could be considered a gift if one could exercise a measure of control.
I'm sure Alecrim knows how much you miss her - she may be closer to you than you think. And a little relaxation and auto-suggestion before you fall asleep: Tonight when I dream, I will spend some time with Alecrim, (repeated until you become drowsy) may just work - stranger things have happened.
Thanks for sharing :)
Heathens, Pagans and Witches
Books mentioned in this topic
The Secret History of the World (other topics)The Secret History of the World (other topics)
Dark Intrusions: An Investigation into the Paranormal Nature of Sleep Paralysis Experiences (other topics)
Dark Intrusions: An Investigation into the Paranormal Nature of Sleep Paralysis Experiences (other topics)
Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Mark Booth (other topics)Jonathan Black (other topics)
Graham Hancock (other topics)
Lindsay Clarke (other topics)
I awoke in the night on Saturday and lay listening to the radio, which was still on very low. After a little while and (as far as I can tell) somewhere near the point of sleep I became aware of an amazing sensation - a beautiful vibration distributed evenly all over and throughout my body. It wasn't anything like I've experienced before, and bore no resemblance to trembling, shaking or shivering - I felt perfectly comfortable. I immediately recognized the sensation as the one Robert Monroe experienced and described in his book Journeys Out of the Body, (mentioned earlier in this thread) although it was some time ago that I read it and I hadn't been thinking of it.
I believe I'd have known that it opened up a possibility for astral travel, even without having ever read the book - the feeling of getting ready to leave was very powerful. But - and this is disappointing - I'd forgotten that Monroe had discovered that the most effective way to travel is to think of a person, and I was just waiting to see where I'd be taken. I may have been too excited and thinking too much, because after a very short while the vibration stopped. I must have fallen asleep immediately - I'm sure the vibration was not a dream, as although Monroe's description matched my experience, I could never have imagined what that amazing sensation actually felt like. The only tiny doubt in my mind (that I was still awake when it happened) is that I didn't remember the experience until meditation after an early cuppa at 6.30.
But I'm so glad I did - days later the whole experience still feels like a gift - and if there is a next time (I won't try to achieve that state), I'll be ready.