1. DR ZHIVAGO - HF - INTRODUCTION AND CHAPTER 1 (xi - 20) ~ June 4th - June 10th; No Spoilers, Please

[Christian]

Becky wrote: "Chapter 1:1

The first two paragraphs of the book:

On they went, singing "Rest Eternal," and whenever they stopped, their feet, the horses, and the gusts of wind seemed to carry on their singin..."


I'm currently reading the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation, which to me seems more poetic. I'll quote the same scene:

"They walked and walked and sang 'Memory Eternal,' and whenever they stopped, the singing seemed to be carried on by their feet, the horses, the gusts of wind.
Passersby made way for the cortege, counted the wreaths, crossed themselves. The curious joined the procession, asked: 'Who's being buried?' 'Zhivago,' came the answer. 'So that's it. Now I see.' 'Not him. Her.' 'It's all the same. God rest her soul. A rich funeral.'

It should be remembered that Pasternak was mainly a poet. If memory serves Doctor Zhivago was his only major foray into the novel.



by

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks, "regarding citations", remember we must always add the book cover (when available), the author's photo when available and always the author's link which is the author's name in linkable text.

The one book where you do not have to do a citation is for the book being discussed (Dr Zhivago). However, if other books by Boris Pasternak are mentioned then you have to cite those.

For example,

by Boris Pasternak

[Joanne]

Becky wrote: "Perhaps - I'd have to think about that - I do think that in a way, Pasternak was taking the story from where Tolstoy left off. Tolstoy was fine for 19th century but now is a new age. ???

I w..."

In general, I tend to be cautious about mining too deeply for symbolism, particularly in discrete examples. Consider the train as a social milieu. Perhaps a microcosm. Or, conversely, as a separate world, where people mix and mingle, not subject to the strict hierarchy of Russian society.

[Becky]

Christian wrote: "I'm currently reading the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation, which to me seems more poetic. I'll quote the same scene:
..."

Thank you, Christian - your example is great. Pevear might be more poetic. I understand it's really hard to translate poetry - do you go for literal or "the sense of" plus rhythm?

And Hayward and Harai did their translation very quickly to get a copy out and then it was another 50 years before the Pevear translation was published. I have both and have read both.

[Becky]

Bentley wrote: "Folks, "regarding citations", remember we must always add the book cover (when available), the author's photo when available and always the author's link which is the author's name in linkable text..."

Thank you, Bentley - I'll try to keep my eye out.

[Becky]

Joanne wrote: "In general, I tend to be cautious about mining too deeply for symbolism, particularly in discrete examples. Consider the train as a social milieu. Perhaps a microcosm. Or, conversely, as a separate world, where people mix and mingle, not subject to the strict hierarchy of Russian society. "

Thanks Joanne! That is really interesting and reading the train scene as a social milieu works very well. So far in the book, Pasternak seems to have tried to cover the general social spectrum in terms of the characters and their economic stations so it would be natural to continue to do that on the train.

[Becky]

And in checking out some other resources I came across a few other possibilities for themes - there's loneliness, individuality and the corrupted and misguided revolution.

We see some severe loneliness already in the case of Yura, and his uncle certainly seems to encourage independent thinking. We've yet to find out anything about the revolution.

[FrankH]

Becky wrote: "Yes, I agree - I think the movie rekindled the universal themes for awhile - and now we have the new translation by Pevear. But neither of those events has resulted in putting Doctor Zhivago on ..."

I'm not sure how today's scholars rate the book but I suspect there's a vast group of serious readers out there which rank Zhivago very highly as literature, myself included. (It is included in various lists of 1001 books to read before you die). The book no doubt had a special topical impact when it was first published in the fifties, but I think we read it today for it's soulfulness and its impressionistic, poetic rendering of the intersection of individual yearning and titanic social upheaval. I loved the Lean movie, but there are significant deviations from the book. From an historical perspective, it will be interesting to see what historical events and themes of the Revolution are referenced directly by Pasternak, as well as those which are covered only tangentially or not at all. I had asked Becky for a history of the RR as a supplement to the Zhivago read and she cited 'A People's Tragedy' by Orlando Figes. Though history is not my strong suit and Figes has his detractors, I found reading this volume provided a greater understanding of the events, the stratified society, and ideas bearing on the October Revolution, as well as the extraordinary chaos of the Civil War that followed. The scope of the writing simply amazes. And per the search for 'coincidences' in Russian literature, I will say the impersonal commentary on the death of Yura's father (in the first chapter) reminds me somehow of the mourners depicted in Tolstoy's great story "The Death of Ivan Ilych". They all want to respect the solemnity of death but take a secret satisfaction in knowing, this time around, it's someone else and not them.

Orlando Figes

Leo Tolstoy

[Becky]

FrankH wrote: "The book no doubt had a special topical impact when it was first published in the fifties, but I think we read it today for it's soulfulness and its impressionistic, poetic rendering of the intersection of individual yearning and titanic social upheaval. I loved the Lean movie, but there are significant deviations from the book. From an historical perspective, it will be interesting to see what historical events and themes of the Revolution are referenced directly by Pasternak, as well as those which are covered only tangentially or not at all. ."

Great post, Frank! Thanks - I didn't rate Doctor Zhivago so highly the first time I read it many years ago but this time I found much, much more there than I ever got the first time round. (And I've never seen the movie.)

This time the book made internal sense in ways it hadn't prior (my fault, I'm sure). And this time the history reverberated with what I knew from history books - Pasternak didn't use the Revolution as mere setting - it was the world the characters lived in, that so deeply affected their lives and hearts and minds.

Now that you mention it, I think I may dig out The People's Tragedy. It's worth a reread - or rechecking anyway. And I'm wondering what another book by Figes, Natasha's Dance, has in it that I've forgot - (note - both books have had some fairly serious criticism).

& by Orlando Figes

[Becky]

"Christian wrote: "I'm currently reading the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation, which to me seems more poetic. I'll quote the same scene:
..."

Actually, I just now remembered, I read War and Peace in the Pevear translation and they (he and his wife, Larissa Volokhonsky) are tremendous translators. I think this might be a personal preference based on having read the Hayward translation first - years ago.

by Leo Tolstoy

[Joanne]

Becky wrote: "Toward the end of Chapter 1, Section 7 we find that it is a man named Zhivago who has committed suicide:

Misha's father described him as a well-known millionaire, Zhivago, a good-natured proflig..."

Another thought concerning how Pasternak might be specifically commenting on Tolstoy. . . . Let's consider the motivation for the two suicides. What motivates Anna Karenina? What does the gesture of suicide mean in her world? By contrast, what does a suicide mean on the eve of Revolution, War, Civil War, etc. The loss of a personal world is trivial. The loss of an entire society/culture/economy is epic.

by Leo Tolstoy

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Joanne, remember to cite Tolstoy. Good comments.

Leo Tolstoy

[G]

Interestingly, wikipedia has a section on suicide in Russian literature during the golden age.

I had read Crime and Punishment

by Dostoyevsky

a while ago, but remembered the suicide as something perceived as nobel. So I looked it up and found the wiki article (link below).

Especially interesting is the dichotomy between men and women suicides, and then, after the Revolution, the use of suicide in terms of political ideology. Based on this article, it appears Pasternak was continuing a long tradition in Russian literature. Putting it at the start of the novel might show the beginning of a cultural transition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_...

I also found several abstracts that looked interesting, but was unable to access the full articles. I've included this link for those who might have access.

http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/content...

[Becky]

That is fascinating, G! Oh my! I also read Crime and Punishment but it's been years ago. Good on you to look it up and share it. Thank you! I did a little Googling myself and found a whole book about it. I had no idea suicide was a "cultural institution" in 19th century Russia and yet - Suicide as a Cultural Institution in Dostoevsky's Russia - by Irina Papernp. Actually, there are a couple books and many articles (stashed away from non-subscribing eyes) out there.


by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

by Irina Papernp (no photo)


Yes, and I think that Pasternak absolutely knew he was continuing in this tradition. And the tradition of Russian literature (and religion and philosophical dichotomies - etc) were terribly important. So perhaps within the book he is not only saying something, but trying to do something as well about the loss of Mother Russia and her cultural treasures.

In Natasha's Dance: Figes says (p. 510)
"...it is no coincidence that the novel's central theme is the importance of preserving the old intelligentsia, represented by Zhivago."

by Orlando Figes

Mr. Zhivago's suicide is no "accident," or convenience for the story. He could have been removed from the narrative in any of a number of ways - stabbed in a bar fight, alcoholic poisoning - whatever. But Pasternak has him throw himself from a train right near the farm where is son is visiting.

I'll have to continue to look for these lost cultural and societal traditions which Pasternak alludes to and sometimes uses. I think this may be an overarching theme in some way. He didn't finish the book until after 40 years of Communist rule so by that time much was lost - or appeared to be.

[Joanne]

Becky wrote: "That is fascinating, G! Oh my! I also read Crime and Punishment but it's been years ago. Good on you to look it up and share it. Thank you! I did a little Googling myself and found a whole b..."

I grappling with the fact that in the Pevear/Volokhonsk the suicide on the train is NOT identified as Zhivago. Does anyone know if this reflects the original text? Could this be an oversight? An intentional omission? Or have other translations added the detail to "help" the reader? I have no doubt that many things will happen in the course of the novel that are gradually clarified or amplified. That said, not to have this rather significant detail very much changes the impact of that scene.

[Joanne]

Along with suicide as a cultural/social tradition in Russia, we might want to consider Fatalism and the Eastern mind. How does Pasternak feel about the notion of free will and/or choice, especially when individuals are swept up in the march of overwhelming historical events?

[Becky]

Joanne wrote: "I grappling with the fact that in the Pevear/Volokhonsk the suicide on the train is NOT identified as Zhivago. Does anyone know if this reflects the original text? Could this be an oversight? An intentional omission? ."

I also wondered about this. I don't know of any other translations into English. I wonder what translations in other languages do with those lines. I was thinking perhaps Pasternak used the language in such a way that although Zhivago's name is never specifically mentioned, the wording makes it clear who it is.

[Becky]

Joanne wrote: "Along with suicide as a cultural/social tradition in Russia, we might want to consider Fatalism and the Eastern mind. How does Pasternak feel about the notion of free will and/or choice, especially..."

Absolutely - the idea of fate/fatalism might give a philosophical underpinning (of some sort) to the coincidences and perhaps other plot elements. And the idea of fate or fatalism feels very Russian to me. Looking for how free will is expressed in Doctor Zhivago could be very interesting, multi-faceted, visible (or not), in many aspects. I'll have to keep my eye out.

I'm not sure how to approach the "Eastern mind." Do you mean Orthodox Christianity or something else?

[Joanne]

Becky wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Along with suicide as a cultural/social tradition in Russia, we might want to consider Fatalism and the Eastern mind. How does Pasternak feel about the notion of free will and/or cho..."

We tend to think of the European influences on Russia, but consider less the Asian influences on Russia. By Eastern mind, I mean the Asian mindset -- philosophical and religious. Also, how might the book informed by the Jewish outlook on life, death, choice and fate?

[Becky]

Ah - I have no idea about the Asian influences - Maybe in Siberia? Or when Uncle Nikolai discusses major thinkers? We'll have to keep a watch. Thank you!

About the Jewish influence - we know that Pasternak was born Jewish and in the book that Misha is Jewish. Checking on Misha when he thinks about being Jewish, I just came across a passage which seems to address several themes.

Chap 1.7:

At big stations passengers jumped out and ran to the buffet; the sun setting behind the station garden lit their feet and shone under the wheels of the train.

Every motion in the world taken separately was calculated and purposeful, but, taken together, they were spontaneously intoxicated with the general stream of life which united them all. People worked and struggled, each set in motion by the mechanism of his own cares. But the mechanisms would not have worked properly had they not been regulated and governed by a higher sense of an ultimate freedom from care. This freedom came from the feeling that all human lives were interrelated, a certainty that they flowed into each other — a happy feeling that all events took place not only on the earth, in which the dead are buried, but also in some other region which some called the Kingdom of God, others history, and still others by some other name.

To this general rule Misha was an unhappy, bitter exception. A feeling of care remained his ultimate mainspring and was not relieved and ennobled by a sense of security. He knew this hereditary trait in himself and watched morbidly and self-consciously for symptoms of it in himself. It distressed him. Its presence humiliated him.

For as long as he could remember he had never ceased to wonder why, having arms and legs like everyone else, and a language and way of life common to all, one could be different from the others, liked only by few and, moreover, loved by no one. He could not understand a situation in which if you were worse than other people you could not make an effort to improve yourself. What did it mean to be a Jew? What was the purpose of it? What was the reward or the justification of this impotent challenge, which brought nothing but grief?

To me, that sounds like it's expressing the ideas of individuality, fate (coincidence), and how being different sets a person apart and powerless to change. I'd say these are themes to remain aware of - not just for Jews, but for all the individual characters who are different in some way.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Becky, the link in message 65 does not work; you might have done a copy and paste and it clearly did not bring over the entire link. Also, links that are ancillary and not directly to the reading and lines in the book must clearly be placed in the glossary. Any potential spoilers of any type whatsoever at no time can be on these weekly non spoiler threads. There are other threads where spoilers can be added including the introduction thread, the bibliography thread and of course the primary thread for these kinds of things - the glossary thread. Please when you fix the link delete it from that post and place this information in the glossary thread.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I think so Joanne, thanks.

[Autumn]

Becky wrote: "Perhaps - I'd have to think about that - I do think that in a way, Pasternak was taking the story from where Tolstoy left off. Tolstoy was fine for 19th century but now is a new age. ???

I w..."
Interesting!! While reading the comments about religion and Russian literature-- I couldn't help but think that maybe the symbolism of the train (progress) represents western civilization and the suicide/and the moral shortcomings of the characters that commit suicide symbolizes that western civilization leads people astray?? This isn't my personal opinion /feelings but seems to be found in Russian Lit? I also while reading this chapter could not help but think about free will and freedom in a very general sense? What makes a person truly free? What does not? And in what ways does culture play a role in the freedom of an individual?

[Autumn]

Becky wrote: "From page 12:

Yura felt more and more lonely. He wanted to cry. He slumped to his knees and burst into tears.
“Angel of God, my holy guardian,” he prayed, “keep me firmly on the path of trut..."

I'm not sure, but he won me over :). A boy and his mother. I'm always a sucker for that--and I couldn't help but be a little perturbed at whoever left them at that point.

[Becky]

Autumn wrote: "I couldn't help but think that maybe the symbolism of the train (progress) represents western civilization and the suicide/and the moral shortcomings of the characters that commit suicide symbolizes that western civilization leads people astray?"

I tend to think that Zhivago's suicide by train is Pasternak's link to the past - Tolstoy. And in Doctor Zhivago, it certainly connects people with other people and places - Misha with Komakovsky and the Zhivagos (father and son). We'll have to watch for how trains are used in the upcoming chapters - it might work into something - might not.

Leo Tolstoy

[Becky]

Autumn wrote: "I'm not sure, but he won me over :). A boy and his mother. I'm always a sucker for that--and I couldn't help but be a little perturbed at whoever left them at that point. ."

Indeed - and I loved the way that NIkolai took Yura under his wing - gently and firmly.

[Autumn]

Becky wrote: "Autumn wrote: "I couldn't help but think that maybe the symbolism of the train (progress) represents western civilization and the suicide/and the moral shortcomings of the characters that commit su..."

It's been a very long time since I read

by Leo Tolstoy but comparing the two very generally off the top of my head the use of trains is very similar. Suicides also. It also seems like there is a struggle for the characters (in both books) between showing emotion and keeping things in altogether or keeping their feelings reigned in; a struggle between what they want to do and what they feel they ought to do ( almost between the rules of their faith in country and faith personally- and their internal desire for a personal absolute freedom ). Just some thoughts...not sure I agree with any of these thoughts but something I was thinking about when I was thinking about the author and the times in which they lived.

[Becky]

Autumn wrote: "It also seems like there is a struggle for the characters (in both books) between showing emotion and keeping things in altogether or keeping their feelings reigned in; a struggle between what they want to do and what they feel they ought to do..."

Not political, but I'm sure this "keeping things in" is a huge part of Lara's problem from the time she first goes dancing with Komarovsky. I think Yura is far better able to communicate his feelings - mostly - maybe not about his attraction to Lara. Misha seems quieter.

[Becky]

Hi Autumn, you got the book title rather than the author's photo and name in the citation. Could you fix that please? It should look like this:

by Leo Tolstoy

Thanks -

[Autumn]

Becky wrote: "Autumn wrote: "It also seems like there is a struggle for the characters (in both books) between showing emotion and keeping things in altogether or keeping their feelings reigned in; a struggle be..."

I agree, not poltical, but more in personal relationships like you suggested. I don't really know what to think of Komarovsky.

Oh shoot!!! Sorry about the citation. I have fixed it.

[Susan]

I am coming in late--nearly 10 days--but hope to catch up. Thank you Becky for some thoughtful guidance in this discussion. I loved the Vechnaya Pamyat. Also thank you for the glossary. I had a question concerning the image of a train representing progress. Mishna's father stops the train--what was his philosophy? Does Pasternak see that as an obstacle to progress?

In the same scene, the widow Tiverzina views the body and seems to say, "Each according to his fate. . . Some die by the Lord's will--and look what's happened to him--to die of rich living and mental illness." This seems to encompass 3 separate philosophies: 1. Fate, 2. the will of God, and 3. natural consequences. Do these ideas get developed in the book?

[Becky]

Susan wrote: "I am coming in late--nearly 10 days--but hope to catch up. Thank you Becky for some thoughtful guidance in this discussion. I loved the Vechnaya Pamyat. Also thank you for the glossary. I had a que..."

Welcome, Susan! You ask some good questions, too! :-)

The train as a symbol seems to be an ongoing topic of this discussion - I don't think we've reached a conclusion - but the idea of the train as a symbol of progress doesn't seem to hold up terribly well considering the oncoming Revolution (which the reader knows will happen). Actually, a conclusion about the train, or any other theme, might have to wait until we finish because these are "No Spoilers" threads and you never know what's coming. That said, it's a very interesting element in the book. Doctor Zhivago is a complex and multilayered novel with a variety of interwoven plots and themes from beginning to end.

All I can say about your last paragraph is that the book does have a rich philosophical component and that death is certainly a theme.

[Autumn]

Becky wrote: "Susan wrote: "I am coming in late--nearly 10 days--but hope to catch up. Thank you Becky for some thoughtful guidance in this discussion. I loved the Vechnaya Pamyat. Also thank you for the glossar..."

For me or to me maybe progress wasn't the right word I wanted to use. It being an oncoming revolution I looked at it as the old ways vs. the new ways--where do people stand--and the train represents the link between the two?? But I suppose this is progress so maybe not. I look forward to the further chapters to see what really the train means!
Yes, and can't wait to discuss the elements of fate like Susan was suggesting. Very interesting indeed. I can see the train utilized as a life cycle also but will wait to discuss it in the finished thread.

[Becky]

Autumn wrote: "Yes, and can't wait to discuss the elements of fate like Susan was suggesting. Very interesting indeed. I can see the train utilized as a life cycle also but will wait to discuss it in the finished thread. "

I think there are certainly cycles involved in the book - especially natural ones - check out the passing seasons.

[Joanne]

Becky wrote: "Autumn wrote: "Yes, and can't wait to discuss the elements of fate like Susan was suggesting. Very interesting indeed. I can see the train utilized as a life cycle also but will wait to discuss it ..."
Let's also consider trains from a practical and historical point of view. Clearly, Pasternak is using the train in a richly metaphoric/symbolic way and during his lifetime both Imperial Russia and the USSR changed the face of Eurasia with the building of trains, connecting remote areas and moving vast numbers of people and materials. This resulted in an unprecedented technological and cultural impact -- even "changing" the people's experience of time and space. See the glossary for more.