The Sword and Laser discussion
Wanting to "Lem" the "Lem" discussions
I think those threads would still be here and just as popular without the term "Lem" being introduced. The term though, for better or worse, has to come to be part of this group almost like an insider password. As long as it stays true to the original meaning behind it I can't see it being a problem. It's something uniquely Sword & Laser.
Nick,I skip them all too, we're the silent majority. ;)
"And for my next gripe I'd like to talk about the number of posts comparing Hyperion to Canterbury Tales .... :-)"
I'm more concerned about all the posts comparing Old Man's War to Don Quixote.
:D
Isn't this another thread about Lemming though? :PGetting into some Inception stuff here, Lemming within a Lem.
Lem the lem discussions. Skip is skipping the lem discussions, too. Nick is nickel and diming the lem discussions. Kim is skimpy about it. LOL!
Joseph wrote: "Isn't this another thread about Lemming though? :P."Nick knows what pulls in eyeballs.
Also, no one's done a "Books you lemmed but wished you hadn't" thread yet. Any takers?
Al-don-neil....*shrugs* (I don't know) LOL!
Joseph wrote: "Isn't this another thread about Lemming though? :PGetting into some Inception stuff here, Lemming within a Lem."
Is that anything like planning the plan's planny plan?
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-...
Nick wrote: "It is a especially inspired term for a action that lacked a one word description."It never needed a one-word description since, "Book, meet wall," is much more fun to say.
Sean wrote: "Nick wrote: "It is a especially inspired term for a action that lacked a one word description."It never needed a one-word description since, "Book, meet wall," is much more fun to say."
And has a really memorable abbreviation: BMW
Here are a few more ideas for posts about "Lemming"-Lemmed books by Stanisław Lem that were eventually unlemmed after a friend encouraged you to give it another try which you did but ended up lemming the book again anyways
-Lemming schoolbooks. A good way not to finish college
-Lemmontology. The religion of only reading the first few pages of all books.
-Lemming discussions. Never finishing what you ....
I would argue that discussing why a book was lemmed is part of what a book club does... If you felt the book didn't speak to you, you should share that and hear the side of those who did enjoy it....Unfortunately though, my lem thread was hijacked to oblivion and even turned into a comparison to Nazis.....
Maybe my feelings about lem discussions are sentimental nonsense, but I just thought getting feedback to what parts I did not like about Hyperion might help me understand why it was so well liked...
How about a discussion on books that you un-lemmed? Ones you quit and didn't ever think you would finish only to come back someday and end up liking it. An example for me would be Illium by Dan Simmons. I slogged through about 200 pages and put it aside. A couple of years later I tried again and ended up not only liking it but then devouring its sequel quickly.
Nimrod wrote: "I would argue that discussing why a book was lemmed is part of what a book club does... If you felt the book didn't speak to you, you should share that and hear the side of those who did enjoy it....."I'm not saying don't discuss it but there just seems to be lately a ridiculous amount of "lem" posts. I'm just taking a light hearted poke at it. I'm not trying to tell people what to discuss and if it really is something I don't like I can always just ignore the post (aka the title of the post).
I was expressing a personal wish in my OP for discussions to move on. It was not a demand.
@Nick I understand, I was upset when my thread turned into a genre war then turned into a huge mess, so I share your sentiment about moving on. I know I already did!
If you are lemming the lem discussions, aren't you in fact, lemming? I think it's time you faced...Nega-Nick:
If Nick faced Nega-Nick they would probably just go for a coffee and talk about Old Man's War, although I doubt Nick will ever forgive Nega-Nick for playing a Horde character.I did "Lem" the the first "Lem" thread after it got to be about four pages; I think I only read the first page though. I haven't looked back since.
Part of my problem with these threads is the fact that I don't actually "Lem" books. I have a book on my shelf that has a bookmark in it that I haven't read in years, but I still plan on reading it eventually. On the other hand I have lemmed series, but not on purpose, mostly because of a lack of time.
Another issue I have with these threads is seeing people say they have lemmed books that I really liked. Obviously everyone has their own tastes, but I get pissed off when people trash talk a book they didn't even finish reading. I think to myself,"no wonder you didn't like it, you didn't finish reading it, you *@#%ing *#@*%."
I've had a bookmark in the middle of The Stand for 30 years.
I was going to pick up a copy of The Stand last year until I saw how tiny the typeface was. I'm really not into a thousand pages of squinting.
@Boots, wouldn't you agree though, that if you have a large list of books you want to read, spending time on a book you are not liking makes very little sense?I realize a lot of people trash talk books that others love, but I think discussing why a book did not grab you is equally as important as discussing a book that you enjoyed.
"Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to Lem" !I think what we need is a way to give royalties to Mr. Lem for the use of the new verb. At any rate, it should be included in the new dictionaries this year. I now have a way to refer to books I've "lemmed" other than "yeah that's just something I'll get back to someday." Maybe I'll even read his books just for the contribution he's made to my reading life.
Ken wrote: ""Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to Lem" !I think what we need is a way to give royalties to Mr. Lem for the use of the new verb. At any rate, it should be included in the new dictio..."
Oh, and Pingus is an OK version of the old Lemmings game.
Nimrod wrote: "@Boots, wouldn't you agree though, that if you have a large list of books you want to read, spending time on a book you are not liking makes very little sense?I realize a lot of people trash talk books that others love, but I think discussing why a book did not grab you is equally as important as discussing a book that you enjoyed."
I completely agree, there isn't enough time in the world to read all the books most of us would like to. I also enjoy it when people have and share different opinions about a novel, it makes things interesting.
My issue is when people criticize books that they never finished reading. The way I see it is, if a person didn't finish reading a book then they forfeit their right to complain about it. It reminds me of that political saying, "If you didn't vote you can't complain."
I agree with Boots. I know a lot of people give 1 star ratings to books they can't ot won't get through, I don't feel right rating a book I didn't finish. I also plan on getting through all the books I've set aside someday.
I was going to read this thread and it started out just fine, but then I ended up lemming it...I might come back and read it all through one day, but I think I've lemmed it for good now.
Ever notice 'lemming' sounds like 'lemon'? Like this book was a lemon...
@Boots, well, I used to agree with the political version of the sentiment, but, let's just say my views on the matter have, uh, evolved.....That being said, if you can't finish reading a book, the reasons are perfectly valid opinions that should be discussed with those that did finish reading said book... Maybe that way you will find an argument that will help you move on... See my Hyperion/Canterbury thread for a great example... I almost lemmed it early on and was convinced not to!
Boots wrote: "I was going to pick up a copy of The Stand last year until I saw how tiny the typeface was. I'm really not into a thousand pages of squinting."Audible version, very good narration.
Was it the most recent episode of S&L where they mentioned someone saying "if you pick up a book and it doesn't interest you, put it down, it wasn't written for you" ?
There are books I love and others dislike, and vice versa. A personal opinion doesn't necessarily mean a book is bad. My Goodreads ratings are very high, because I won't finish a book I dislike- that is the burden of professional reviewers.
There are plenty of valid reasons for not finishing a book; but generally speaking the ending is usually a pretty significant part of a novel. So judging a book while missing all of that information could be compared to judging a book by it's cover. For an example, if a person were to stop reading Animal Farm half way through because they thought it sucked, they would be missing the point of the entire story. Like Tasha said and I've seen it before as well, people rating books with one star because they couldn't finish it; that's what bothers me. I have no problem with people not finishing a book; I just don't want to hear how horrible they thought it was. "I couldn't even make it through the first chapter. This book sucks! 1 star."
So it's not that I think people shouldn't have an opinion about a book. I just think that personal opinion should be based on the entire book.
Oh, and I'm avoiding the Hyperion threads because I haven't started reading it yet.
@Boots, so if my personal opinion was that I felt like I was back in High School reading a book I had no interest in, my point is not valid because I didn't finish it? OK... So what will you say if my opinion of the book is the same if I went back and finished said book?I agree that an ending is important, but just because I formed an opinion of a book early on doesn't mean that by reading the rest of it my initial opinion will change.
I know that others might lem books earlier than I did and completely bash the book, but in my case there is nothing in the world that would have saved Hyperion in my eyes.
I have read the Hyperion threads, I ignored the spoiler ones for some time... but after I gave up on it and saw what else was to come, I still did not have my opinion change.
If I lemmed a book because I didn't like what a character said or did, you are absolutely right that the ending may have changed my opinion... but in Hyperion's case, I was bored out of my mind... literally fell asleep while reading just a few pages (and I have insomnia!). I felt that the plot was predictable and unimaginative. The ending was never going to fix that.
In the end, your opinion that I should reserve mine until I actually finish the book is just as valid as my opinion of the book without having finished it.
As for rating it a 1 star, well, maybe goodreads should have the option to rate it un-finished... until then 1 star will have to do.
@Nimrod Sorry but I agree with Boots. Your opinion of a book is not really of it as a whole but of only the section you read through. I don't feel its fair to the author to say that a whole book is bad if they just wrote a slow start to the book. I've read at least one book recently I didn't start enjoying till the second half of the book (Rule 34). If I had stopped early I would have missed out on the end.Hyperion being segmented the way it is should almost have 7 different reviews. One for the individual stories it tells and one for the overarching story and the way the smaller stories tie together. I haven't read "Fall of Hyperion" yet so I'm reserving judgement. If I were forced to review just "Hyperion" I would have rated it fairly low but not a awful book. The characters are interesting and are given interesting things to do but I felt keenly that there is a greater explanation of what was happenning on the planet that is not given in the first book. The first book definitely feels unfinished which in a way it is.
@Nick, so would I have to read the whole book to review each of the tales then? Because my feelings of the book *are* based on the tales I did read...If it makes you happy I can go ahead and read the rest of the book, maybe then you'll accept my review, but in the end, my feelings on Hyperion will not change yours and the fact that I chose to pass judgment on it early on doesn't change the fact that I will not change my opinion even if I did read the rest of it.
What exactly would you consider a "slow start"? I can see you making that argument if I had lemmed Hyperion on the first chapter as I had originally intended, but halfway through a book is not a slow start, that's a slow book...
You could argue that technically Hyperion is the first half of the story, and your "slow-start" argument would make sense... but seeing as the writing, which has nothing to do with the story is my biggest complaint, I don't see how reading the ending would give my feelings more validity...
Nimrod wrote: "@Nick, so would I have to read the whole book to review each of the tales then? Because my feelings of the book *are* based on the tales I did read...If it makes you happy I can go ahead and read..."
I accept your review for the portion of the book you read. Not for the book as a whole.
@Nick I could have lied and said I read the whole book, but then it would be about how I disliked the book and not about having lemmed the book, which I guess was your original point.I just don't see why I can't intelligently talk about not being able to finish a book but you would have no problem with me completely trashing the book if I made it to the last page.
I did like certain parts of Hyperion, just didn't have enough reason to go back to it.
If we were reading a trashy novel, and my complaint and reason for not being able to finish it was the gratuitous sex, would you feel I have no right to call it a trashy book because I was unable to finish it?
Nimrod wrote: "@Nick I could have lied and said I read the whole book, but then it would be about how I disliked the book and not about having lemmed the book, which I guess was your original point.I just don't..."
Correct. You haven't read the full book so how do you know the whole thing is trashy? You can only comment on the portion of the book you've read. Its like making a decision with only part of the facts. You can comment on the writing style in the parts you've read but you can't assume the whole book uses the same style. Even if it did maybe the story gets better. I personally don't take reviews seriously that haven't read any book in full.
This is my personal feeling on the subject and its not mandatory that we all believe the same thing.
Nick wrote: "This is my personal feeling on the subject and its not mandatory that we all believe the same thing. "No, I agree, I'm just trying to see your point, I understand it, I just can't agree with it...
Telling me I can't assume the rest of the book will be the same is like telling me that if I start reading a book that is Sci-Fi, I must read the end because it may turn out to actually be a Western...
A recent example of what I'm trying to get at is Dark Shadows (The Movie). I am a huge Tim Burton and Johnny Depp fan, but I was disappointed with Dark Shadows. Halfway through I had made that decision... If I had walked out right then and there, I would have had the same impression I had at the end of the movie. The only thing the ending did was upset me even more, because to me the last 10 minutes of the movie are the best! Had the entire movie been like that, my feelings would have been different.
I still judge Dark Shadows by the overall experience and not by the ending.
It reminds me of a rule of web design I live by in my line of work... You have 3 seconds to get someone's attention and keep them on your site, after that you may never see them again.
I guess it's just two ways of thinking.
@Nimrod seconding you on this. It takes a lot to get me to put a book down in disgust. Sometimes it's just that there is something in the plot line that really bugs or disturbs me and this is not were want to spend my time. Others it is bad character development, bad plot, or something has happened that I can no loner suspend my disbelief; any of those the book is liable to get my ire in a review, simply because I consider those hallmarks of bad writing.
As long is someone is able to articulate why they didn't like the book and they didn't put the book down within the first 15 pages, I think has a right to review a book on being bad or not their style. Requiring someone to sit through something they hate just to be able to write about I think would engender more vitriol and hyperbole about the book not enable them to change their minds.
Lemming is prefectly legitimate and discussions on why can be I think. More insightful that a bunch of 'I love this book' discussions. Makes those of us who like the book actually defend it.
@Julia, good point on the insight comment... With Hyperion a new thread popped up recently to counter the lem thread. I was happy about hat because I did want to discus the book with those who enjoyed it...I guess it's like with everything though, if you like something, you are not as likely to go and post about it than those hat absolutely disliked it... And, again taking from the lem thread, negative responses seem to Lund louder than the positive ones. I think this has to do with the fact hat most "like" threads basically say only that, vs most hate threads tear apart the sections they did not like.
On another note, anyone notice the iPad app or goodreads won't let you edit posts? Damn auto correct....
Nimrod wrote: "On another note, anyone notice the iPad app or goodreads won't let you edit posts? Damn auto correct...."That thing is universally annoying, I've just stopped using it and gone to the website due to the number of crashes, or can't access website right now errors it has.
@Julia, heh, and I just noticed another error on that second post... I like the Android app better...
FertileSpade wrote: "Then i notice towards th end a serious discussion is occurring. "I just hope that everyone can stay civil, no need to fight to have a discussion!
Leming the talk about Lem of books.So moving right along.
Have I mentioned how I feel about broccoli?
Boots wrote: "It reminds me of that political saying, "If you didn't vote you can't complain."Okay, old post I'm replying to here, but I saw a flaw in your analogy. If you tried really hard to vote, but the voting set up made it difficult for you to continue the process, I'd say there was a definite right to complain! :P
Honestly, a lem review is perfectly valid (at least, an unofficial one is - someone paid to review really ought to struggle through a book no matter how hard it is) so long as it is clear that that is what it is. To me, it suggests that the book may have had something wonderful to say right after the book was lemmed, but the reader didn't feel it was worth the struggle to get to it. Nothing at all wrong with that opinion. One of the reasons I more often than not keep reading is the hope that a book will get better soon, but there is a point where it just becomes tiresome.
For me, wherever someone got up to in a book, all thoughts are fine so long as there are reasons given. eg:
Bad review: That book sucked. What a load of rubbish!
Good review: I lemmed the book after the third chapter. For me, the story felt unoriginal, the characters far from engaging, and I didn't feel like I would gain anything from continuing.
(both reviews fictional)
Nimrod wrote: "I just hope that everyone can stay civil, no need to fight to have a discussion!"It has stayed civil.
Ruth wrote: "Boots wrote: "It reminds me of that political saying, "If you didn't vote you can't complain."Okay, old post I'm replying to here, but I saw a flaw in your analogy. If you tried really hard to vote, but the voting set up made it difficult for you to continue the process, I'd say there was a definite right to complain! :P"
Then you can complain about the process, but if you still have the ability to vote and you don't exercise that right then it's what? everybody's problem? Anyway let me see if I get what you are saying, if I'm reading a book on an ebook reader and that reader breaks halfway through the novel, "[making] it difficult for [me] to continue the process," do I have a right to complain about the book? I would say I have a right to complain about the ebook reader, not the book itself.
I used Animal Farm as an example earlier because it's an allegory. If you are reading a book that is supposed to be an allegory and you decide to stop reading before the end then you will end up missing the entire point of the book. So to write a review, or rate a book that might not be completely understood, just doesn't seem right to me. Especially when rating a book isn't mandatory, if a book can be added without being rated why give it 1 star?
It seems like most people who don't finish a book intentionally are pretty much guaranteed to give a book a bad review/rating to justify the fact that they couldn't finish it. I think it's a type of cognitive dissonance, people ask themselves; "why can I not finish this book? It can't be my fault, it must be the book's fault."
In some cases the ending of a book can be good enough to make the struggle of getting there worth the effort. (@Fertilespade Moby Dick is one of these IMHO, pick it back up)
Boots wrote: "Anyway let me see if I get what you are saying, if I'm reading a book on an ebook reader and that reader breaks halfway through the novel, "[making] it difficult for [me] to continue the process," do I have a right to complain about the book? I would say I have a right to complain about the ebook reader, not the book itself."Lol, I guess my analogy wasn't so great either! :P What I meant by 'the voting set up' was the way a novel is written, and the story set out. Sometimes the style the writers uses, for example, doesn't sit well with the reader, and they may find themselves unable to enjoy the story without great effort, and will give up. In which case, that person can of course review negatively based on the fact that the beginning was, in their opinion, poor, and prevented them from reading the book.
I know the story of Animal Farm without having read it, but if I tried to and found the writing to be so awful I gave up, that wouldn't keep me from being critical of the book as a whole - just because the ending is the point of the book doesn't mean the writing before the end cannot be judged; if that were the case, why have anything before the end in the first place - we could just read the end, agree that it was very clever and have done with it.
I think if a person is struggling with a book and chooses not to continue reading, it is only natural that they give a negative review, and as I said, I'm fine with this so long as reasons are given and it is noted that the book was lemmed. The point of reviews is to advise the potential reader, and if many people have given up due to slow pace, for example, I would take that into consideration, and be prepared for that should I still decide to try the book.
To rate a book you have not read just doesn't sit right with me. Also, when you give a lemmed book 1 star Goodreads counts it as "read" but that is a lie, you haven't read it.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Animal Farm (other topics)Old Man's War (other topics)
Don Quixote (other topics)
It is a especially inspired term for a action that lacked a one word description.
I know these threads are popular because they allow people to blow off steam about books they really don't care for but I'd like discussions to move on.
And for my next gripe I'd like to talk about the number of posts comparing Hyperion to Canterbury Tales .... :-)
Just kidding. I love the fervor of our conversations here.