The Sword and Laser discussion
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Hyperion
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Hyp: Chapter Four: On Jews in the Future
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Necessary? No. But there was a comment about the Earth being essentially destroyed as a sign of God's broken promise (of the Noahic covenant). I suspect a greater diaspora would only deteriorate faith, or at least its orthodoxy.
Peter wrote: "But there was a comment about the Earth being essentially destroyed as a sign of God's broken promise (of the Noahic covenant)."For my part, I would posit that a tragedy like the end of the earth would cause people to reaffirm their beliefs, if anything, and they'd find some way to fit the event into their worldview (as we tend to do).
Of course, as readers we're really only shown Sol's point of view of the after-effects, He calls the still-practicing pockets of Jews "nonvital, picturesque ... tourist-oriented." I doubt the people in those societies would view themselves that way.
I suspect a greater diaspora would only deteriorate faith, or at least its orthodoxy.
I can very much see the second part happening - or what was once a few orthodoxies becoming several hundred.
The Noahic Covenant was not that the earth would not be destroyed - but that it would not be destroyed by cataclysmic global flooding. The Jewish scriptures/Bible in fact makes it quite plain that Earth will in fact be discarded/destroyed."Is Earth a necessary piece of a religious viewpoint?"
Most Biblical doctrine is based on history (ie is reliant on the History as recorded in the Bible being True) and also on where history is going ie future events.
For example, the Jewish Sabbath is based on a history that states the Earth was created in 6 days and God rested/ceased on the seventh. And the concept of original sin would be meaningless unless there was a literal Adam and Eve who "fell."
Take that over to the New Testament - Christ's atonement would be meaningless if the history of Genesis was not true - ie Why did Christ die? Because Adam sinned - if there is no Adam what then? Christ's resurrection demonstrated His dominion over death - but if Christ didn't literally rise then he has not in fact demonstrated power over death and the Christian hope of resurrection is based on a false promise.
The New Testament also has a very specific future set out ie destruction by fire, the Return of Christ, The Resurrection, Heaven, Hell etc.
So if the events of Hyperion happened instead, then it would basically make the Bible out to be a lie. So yes, the Earth is and a specific Earth history is necessary to both a Jewish and Christian worldview.
Sol, in explaining why their faith is now less important, tells Rachel (pg 252 in pb), "God broke His word by destroying the Earth a second time in the way he did. And this Diaspora is ... forever."Preceding the Noahic covenant, "the Lord said in His heart, I will never again curse the ground for mans sake, although the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done" (Gen 8:21). Disregarding the precise theological implications of the covenant, Sol felt it was betrayed when the Old Earth was destroyed, resulting in the declining faith.
I agree with @David that in our real universe, Earth is a key component in Judeo-Christian faith. I am uncertain how it applies to Simmons' universe (which clearly draws on real history/faith).
@ PeterJust to be picky - The Noahic Covenant proper is in the following Chapter
Gen 9:8-11
8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth. ”
So then the phrase "as I have done" from the passage you highlighted from a few paragraphs previous in the previous chapter would refer specifically to cataclysmic flooding especially if taken contextually with the immediate following verse "As long as the Earth endures" ie the Earth enduring is a CONDITION of the promise - not the promise itself. The Earth NOT enduring is actually a Biblical theme.
@ Peter,I agree that Sol's motivation is described exactly as you have it. But here my contention is that Simmons hasn't properly got into the Jewish "headspace."
Its not the Earth being destroyed thats the problem but the Earth is supposed to be destroyed/discarded along with the rest of the Universe and then humanity is judged by God directly. So the Earth being destroyed but the Universe carrying on as if nothing happened would be a problem for a Biblical scholar.
To be fair, this identity question is one that's taken place for generations. Judaism isn't just a religion, but also a culture and ethnicity. "Old Earth" is simply the latest in a long line of reasons people find not to identify with the religion, but still consider themselves Jewish in a more cultural/secular sense. Others would obviously have trouble reconciling with the loss of Earth and abandon the identity.As for other religions, I think Simmons portrays realistic possibilities for their evolution. Religions are human inventions and evolve as perception of the universe changes. Judeo-Christian ones may have more trouble surviving without Earth as so much of the doctrine is invested in specific locations. Some, especially Eastern religions with their more cosmic view, would survive, and new ones would rise.
I find it more interesting that he created a new Israel in the form of Hebron and that it's exclusively Jewish.
@David
Not as much a problem as you would think. Initially, sure, but they'd reconcile it. "This was our judgement, and now we're exiled out into space" and the like. And probably the hope that, in the long run, there'd be some way to return & restore Earth.
William wrote: "Judaism isn't just a religion, but also a culture and ethnicity. "Old Earth" is simply the latest in a long line of reasons people find not to identify with the religion, but still consider themselves Jewish in a more cultural/secular sense. Others would obviously have trouble reconciling with the loss of Earth and abandon the identity."As a secular (atheist) Jew, I completely agree :)
Sol's comment "this Diaspora is permanent" struck a chord with me. How do you end a Seder with "Next year in Jerusalem!" if the planet Jerusalem is on no longer exists?
Nevertheless this is the first chapter that has any reality to it. He knows these people.But, interestingly, he has told Sol's story as if he is telling Sol's story - not Sol telling his own story. ???? A psychologist might make much of that.. To Zionists, the only important thing is regaining the promised land in the sense of real estate. So the loss of that forever could be the central part of being Jewish for some.
It goes to show that writers should write about what they know. This chapter was more interesting than the others so far. Not enough to justify the book yet, but better. I can see these people.
William wrote: "To be fair, this identity question is one that's taken place for generations. Judaism isn't just a religion, but also a culture and ethnicity...."For some, it's no longer even a religion at all. As the comments here demonstrate, "ethnic Judaism" these days can be completely unmoored from the issue of belief. That makes for some factionalism of course; I doubt any orthodox authority is going to accept that someone who rejects Maimonides 13 principles of "faith" can be considered consistently Jewish, even if ethnically so identified. But I doubt the schisms brought on by the passage of time would be any worse than those which occur with Christianity, or Buddhism, et. al.
Jess wrote: "Sol's comment "this Diaspora is permanent" struck a chord with me. How do you end a Seder with "Next year in Jerusalem!" if the planet Jerusalem is on no longer exists? ..."More importantly - why/how would Jewish culture survive the destruction of the Earth to the point where Sol would be having identity problems centuries later? I don't buy it.
Ethnic Judaism today is mostly Ashkenazi which is almost unrecognizable to Sephardic peoples. Samaritans almost outcasts by both.
The reaction to such a catastrophe would no doubt mirror the reaction to the Holocaust. Some felt G-d had abandoned them, some clung to faith in order to survive while others found a way of preserving their Jewish identity with new customs. Zionism is only a part of Judaism and while many ethnic Jews create their Jewish identity through Jewish values many Rabbis agree that being a religious Jew is not a theological concept but a life-style (I hate that phrase but you know what I mean)
A Jew expresses his religion through the rituals of daily life - saying blessings, keeping kosher, celebrating the Sabbath and other religious holidays, giving to charity etc. These can be replicated anywhere.
And the Diaspora was not created by the flood but by invaders - the Babylonians, the Greeks and the Romans.
Esther wrote: "The reaction to such a catastrophe would no doubt mirror the reaction to the Holocaust. Some felt G-d had abandoned them, some clung to faith in order to survive while others found a way of preserv..."And considering crucifom religions a parasite. :)
"If you want to be," said Sol. "It doesn't have the same significance with Old Earth gone."
Sol goes on to say that things are less important to those of Jewish background because "so much of the dream is dead."
A good deal of this novel deals with religion. Do you agree with Simmons's hypothesis that the Jewish faith would shift, or even wither away with a great Diaspora to other planets? What about other religions? Is Earth a necessary piece of a religious viewpoint?