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Helen in Egypt
Helen in Egypt - BP Poetry
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Discussion - Week One - Helen In Egypt - Pallinode pp. 1 - 108
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Jim
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May 05, 2012 11:17AM
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Belatedly starting in on Helen in Egypt - I'm finding the descriptive bits before each piece more distracting than helpful. I'm skipping them to read the poetry straight through, and only going back to them if I'm unclear on what happened.Anyone else have first thoughts.
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The prose descriptions do seem to affect the flow. Do you consider the prose to not be a part of the poem? Or are you not reading it because it seems like she is commenting on her work as she goes? I've been reading them together under the assumption that they are meant to be a unit, even though they seem disconnected. It's awkward to read the prose/poetry together, but maybe that awkwardness is intended.
I wonder how H.D. would have staged a reading of the play? Different or same voice/style for the prose? I'd love to listen to a reading of this if anyone comes across one in their travels.
Yes. I'm finding the prose does affect the flow. But I'm also not really liking the poetry that much. I don't dislike it. I just don't find it compelling. don't know I'll get through this. I don't know I like it enough. But I'll make another try.
I've found that i mostly skim over the prose aswell but might go back to it every now and then if I'm looking for clarification on something.Most of the way through the Pallinode ive been wondering about the sense of time/timelessness through the poem. Are they in Egypt in some sort of Limbo following Achilles transport on the death ship. Is this Helen the illusion as opposed to the one on the Ramparts he saw.
This may have already been answered in a part im not up to yet
I started by reading it out loud and found it fun to do. I like the spirit and tenor of it. Still, I am not enough of a poetry buff but to suspect it may get drowned out by other prose reading. Can't really answer your question yet, Travis, but my understanding at the moment is the possibility that Helen was never in Troy.
That's what I assumed going into the poem but the last few books of the Pallinode have sort of changed my perception a few times. I'll finish it off today and come back with something more concrete in what I'm thinking. Confusing myself trying to think off the top of my head.
I've also found it much more digestible reading out loud. I'm a poetry novice but I'm assuming this is the case with most poetry.
Jim wrote: "Do you consider the prose to not be part of the poem?"I really don't - it seems like an explanation of what I'm about to read in the poetry, and I'd much rather form my own opinion and puzzle out the meaning on my own. I do go back afterwards just to be sure I get it...
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I really don't - it seems like an explanation of what I'm about to read in the poetry, and I'd much rather form my own opinion an..."
That makes sense. I suppose H.D. had a reason for her explanations. Maybe an editor suggested them.
Not to beat this into the ground, but maybe the "commentary" could be read separately - I'm reminded of Cambodia: A Book for People Who Find Television Too Slow by Brian Fawcett (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/73...), which combined imaginative short stories with a book-length essay running concurrently on the same pages. I remember being blown away by this book when I read it years ago.
Jt wrote: "Not to beat this into the ground, but maybe the "commentary" could be read separately - I'm reminded of Cambodia: A Book for People Who Find Television Too Slow by Brian Fawcett (http://www.goodrea..."Jt -- it is your book, or one you have borrowed for your use, or.... I hope you can read it any way you want to, that serves you best.
Personally, I am fine with the commentaries. They are giving me a second way of thinking about a text that still isn't always comprehensible to me. (Or a preliminary way of anticipating the text.)
Your analogy with Cambodia is intriguing, however. I'd not seen or heard of it.
Interesting - I only brought up Cambodia by Brian Fawcett as a comparison to the format of the book, but maybe a greater comparison of Troy to Vietnam/Cambodia could be made.
Jt wrote: "Interesting - I only brought up Cambodia by Brian Fawcett as a comparison to the format of the book, but maybe a greater comparison of Troy to Vietnam/Cambodia could be made."I had presumed your comparison was of the formats!? And of the impact of such kinds of formats and the reading thereof on one's thought processes.
Lily - Exactly, I only referenced that book because of the format of the storytelling; but taking off from there, can The Greeks and the Trojan War be compared to America and the Vietnam War? This had never occurred to me, but there are similarities.
The prose seems to be on a different plane of reality to me separate from the world of the poetry, like the branes of a multi-verse (pun intended) occupying the same space! Also the words of this poetry are 'crispy' in the mouth, tongue and ear. The words 'smack', 'click', 'pop'. The word sounds are fun to say out loud. That said (pun intended again), can't say I like the poem much. There is no DRAMA! It's 100 pages of 'am I alive?' 'are you alive?' 'am I my sister?'am I my niece?' plus a lot of 'I love Achilles, this I know,' and Achilles saying 'is this where I'm supposed to be?' for dozens and dozens of pages.Keep in mind I'm a complete novice at this poetry stuff.
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How would you say that lack of drama and droning on about the same topic affects you as a reader? I always wonder about the slower pace of poems, fiction, and movies from earlier eras and how we, as products of the nano-speed digital era are put off by the speed of the information delivery. Would we respond differently to this poem if we were reading it in 1943?
Another member was scheduled to lead the discussion of this poem, but she has been beamed-up by aliens so unfortunately I don't know much about this poem. I did do an exhaustive ten minute perusal of wikipedia and what caught my eye was H.D.'s bisexuality and her participation in a three-way marriage. One thing I found in the poem is Helen pleading her case that should she not be judged so harshly as she is by the Greeks for following her heart when she went off with Paris. It might be a stretch, but I can imagine that H.D. may have found herself unfairly judged for her own sexuality and choice of lovers during her lifetime.
Jim wrote: "April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "The prose seems to be on a different plane of reality to me separate from the world of the poetry, like the branes of a multi-verse (pun intended) occupying the same..."I think that this is intentional. HD based Helen in Egypt on a play by Euripides and from what I recall from Greek Drama, the Greek plays included both commentary by the Chorus to set the scene and move the story along and, in some cases, written set directions. The narrative could be read as the words of the Chorus or a separate Narrator.
Also, HD was known for her experimentation with forms, both in prose and poetry. This poem was published towards the end of her life and it contains a combination of experimental prose providing one version of the myth and poetry providing another, or maybe more than one.
Since she is imitating an ancient Greek style -- Stesichorus and Homer -- which contains an enormous amount of repetition common to oral storytelling traditions, it is not surprising that the same story is repeated. But did you notice that in HD's version, the story changes when it is repeated? We see different facts, different points of view and different questions as we proceed.
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That's a good observation. H.D. does examine the questions from different angles, like a detective trying to arrive at a truth - or maybe a reasonable conclusion. Many Greek writers wrote about Helen and the ancient Gods and heroes, and each had a different spin/flavor/perspective on the stories.
