How has the introduction of romance affected the fantasy genre?

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I just turned 46, so that makes me a middle-aged nerd chick, LOL.

A lot of fantasy authors have written "magical school" type stories--Carolyn Stevermer, Diane Duane, Diana Wynne Jones, Patricia C. Wrede--are a few I can name who were doing this before HP. Nothing against Rowling because I like her.

[Snarktastic Sonja]

Bev wrote: "No one suggests reading the likes of Mercedes Lackey, Kate Elliot or janny Wurts anymore. Are they sooooo passee???? "

MrsJoseph wrote: "In my experience, most readers ignore my suggestions of Mercedes and Andre Norton. I assume its because they just don't want that type of fantasy.
"

Nope. I, personally, ignore them for a much more practical reason. Ok, I don't ignore them, I just don't pursue them. Ok, I actually pursue them, I just don't . . . catch? . . . them. It is simple. I can't find them on ebook. :( I would really like to read Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series. No ebook. I do have the The Curse of the Mistwraith queued up in my Nook app. I really enjoyed the The Elvenbane series by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. As it was written. I have contemplated going back and re-reading the series. I have found that I enjoy both Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton as paired authors - I like what they write with others, but not always what they write by themselves. (I am pretty sure that sentence is grammatically wrong but I will be dog-goned if I can figure out how to correct it.)

[Bev]

Sonja wrote: "Bev wrote: "No one suggests reading the likes of Mercedes Lackey, Kate Elliot or janny Wurts anymore. Are they sooooo passee???? "

MrsJoseph wrote: "In my experience, most readers ignore my sugges..."

Sonja I hadnt thought of the ebook side of things - very good point. I read most of them in DTB because thats all there was then. I still own them all too although some live in boxes in the garage. Now I have a kindle and would love to see some stuff put on ebook format.

@Vixene I am 42 so maybe its an age thing too!!

[Stephanie]

I've never heard of the others, but I can tell you why I don't read Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce. I read at least two books from each of them, as I recall, and they insisted on writing in a lot of adult content--even if wasn't as explicit as it could have been--that I wasn't comfortable with. Sex may be normal and healthy, but as far as I'm concerned it's private and intimate and the details, especially, aren't for others--or readers.

But I'm no romance fan to begin with...at least the way it's usually portrayed. I understand that not everybody has a real, true romance and intimacy and that some people go on lust and infatuation, but anything less than real love and lasting, complex relationships just leaves me cold. Far too many times, I can't even see why in the world one character is even interested in another character, much less how their lives intersect. The characters just aren't that well-developed. And it doesn't help that...well...I absolutely detest adolescent tripe like Bella and Edward and so many times I just can't get over the tunnel vision and the lack of responsibility and foresight so many characters show in their romance.

So I guess it's not the romance I have a problem with so much as counterfeits and people mistaking sex for romance and oversharing.

[Bev]

Stephanie wrote: "I've never heard of the others, but I can tell you why I don't read Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce. I read at least two books from each of them, as I recall, and they insisted on writing in a lot..."

Steph I see your point but not all of Lackeys books are full of rumpy pumpy. Try a different series of hers. It is hard to get away from sex in todays books.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

Maybe I missed something, but there wasn't a lot of "rumpy pumpy" (I love that phrase and as any good author does will steal it to use somewhere, LOL). in Misty Lackey's books, especially the Tarma/Kethry series. Besides, "rumpy pumpy" doesn't bother me as long as the overall relationship makes sense and that the author isn't trying to outkink their competition.

Ellen Kushner wrote what I consider to be one of the most erotic scenes ever penned in Swordspoint. It wasn't what you saw, but what she purposely left out for you as the reader to fill in the blanks as it were. Not to mention, her language was just amazing!

[Bev]

Vixenne wrote: "Maybe I missed something, but there wasn't a lot of "rumpy pumpy" (I love that phrase and as any good author does will steal it to use somewhere, LOL). in Misty Lackey's books, especially the Tarma..."

Vix to be honest I dont mind a bit of physical stuff in books but I know its not for everyone. Please do feel free to use the phrase! :)

[Bill]

MrsJoseph wrote: "...In my experience, most readers ignore my suggestions of Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton. I assume its because they just don't want that type of fantasy..."

IME, many, many readers concentrate on new stuff which I don't really understand and the younger the more likely.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Vixenne wrote: "I just turned 46, so that makes me a middle-aged nerd chick, LOL.

A lot of fantasy authors have written "magical school" type stories--Carolyn Stevermer, Diane Duane, Diana Wynne Jones, Patricia C..."

Agreed. I have nothing against her at all. I was a little underwhelmed by the subject matter in comparison to the hype.

[Bill]

Stephanie wrote: "I've never heard of the others, but I can tell you why I don't read Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce. I read at least two books from each of them, as I recall, and they insisted on writing in a lot of adult content..."

Indeed. I get tired of YA SFF. It's one reason I like Samuel R. Delany so much.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Sonja wrote: "Nope. I, personally, ignore them for a much more practical reason. Ok, I don't ignore them, I just don't pursue them. Ok, I actually pursue them, I just don't . . . catch? . . . them. It is simple. I can't find them on ebook. :( I would really like to read Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series. No ebook. I do have the The Curse of the Mistwraith queued up in my Nook app. I really enjoyed the The Elvenbane series by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. As it was written. I have contemplated going back and re-reading the series. I have found that I enjoy both Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton as paired authors - I like what they write with others, but not always what they write by themselves. (I am pretty sure that sentence is grammatically wrong but I will be dog-goned if I can figure out how to correct it.) "

:-D

Some of Andre Norton's works are slowly being converted to ebook. Some people are starting to recognize her contributions. http://www.andrenorton.com/

They are doing a tribute to her soon. Yaaay!


I think a lot (if not most) of Mercedes Lackey's stuff are in ebook format.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Stephanie wrote: "I've never heard of the others, but I can tell you why I don't read Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce. I read at least two books from each of them, as I recall, and they insisted on writing in a lot of adult content--even if wasn't as explicit as it could have been--that I wasn't comfortable with. Sex may be normal and healthy, but as far as I'm concerned it's private and intimate and the details, especially, aren't for others--or readers.

But I'm no romance fan to begin with...at least the way it's usually portrayed. I understand that not everybody has a real, true romance and intimacy and that some people go on lust and infatuation, but anything less than real love and lasting, complex relationships just leaves me cold. Far too many times, I can't even see why in the world one character is even interested in another character, much less how their lives intersect. The characters just aren't that well-developed. And it doesn't help that...well...I absolutely detest adolescent tripe like Bella and Edward and so many times I just can't get over the tunnel vision and the lack of responsibility and foresight so many characters show in their romance.

So I guess it's not the romance I have a problem with so much as counterfeits and people mistaking sex for romance and oversharing. "

I haven't read any Tamora Pierce lately but Mercedes Lackey doesn't do gratuitous sex. I would say that 99% of the people who have (off page) sex in Lackey's books end up married or "life-bonded." I can not think of any who were not.

But re: sex in general. It's hard to get away from.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Kernos wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "I've never heard of the others, but I can tell you why I don't read Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce. I read at least two books from each of them, as I recall, and they insisted o..."

I'm not sure I would consider Lackey YA. She has a lot of young MCs but they grow over the course of the story arcs. I would say she handles a bit of adult content in her books in a rather gentile way. I think she may slowly become YA-like as the genre slowly goes farther and farther into the "heavy content" and "dark and gritty" that has become popular. She was rather adult feeling to me when I started reading her quite a few years ago.

[Will]

One issue with the subject is that a lot of the fantasy writers are blokes. And you girls all know how good we are with relationships....

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Martin wrote: "I don't like heavy/central romance in my fantasy. For me, fantasy is about epic themes and settings and larger-than-life characters on quests, be they personal or with far-reaching consequences.

M..."

Love is essential to who we are. I think this was mentioned earlier but... Helen of Troy? For love of Helen thousands of people died and a city destroyed.

I get a little annoyed with thrown in romances, too. Why should I believe this romance is real/true when the characters put no focus there. IRL I have to work just as hard at my marriage as anything else I do. It's not something that "comes after."

[Bill]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Kernos wrote: "...I'm not sure I would consider Lackey YA. She has a lot of young MCs but they grow over the course of the story arcs.."

I didn't mean Lackey was YA, but that if one wanted to avoid adult themes including sex, YA and younger gets boring.

[Jonathan]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Martin wrote: "I don't like heavy/central romance in my fantasy. For me, fantasy is about epic themes and settings and larger-than-life characters on quests, be they personal or with far-reaching c..."

Are you suggesting that you wouldn't enjoy a fantasy story where the romance arc was not the central plot line?

I'm with Martin on this one. I read and write fantasy for tales of fantastical places and wondrous events. Romance can be there if it is organic to the characters and I expect there to be some drama and strife to that but I just can't take many stories seriously that offer just the romance.

In fact I'll go so far as to suggest that I've never once read a compelling fantasy book where romance is front and centre. If anyone can suggest a decent one I'll add it to my list, read it and if you are proven right I will come back here and publicly refute my own opinion (well, for some of the time at least).

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

Will wrote: "One issue with the subject is that a lot of the fantasy writers are blokes. And you girls all know how good we are with relationships...."

I beg to differ here. Nicholas Sparks (not a fantasy writer) is a "bloke" and even though his books aren't my cuppa, he seems to have little problem writing those "heart-tugging, kleenex-inducing" romances and a lot of women love him.

[ShyNight]

With respect to all opinions but the driving force behind a lot of great fantasy novels is romance.. And the romance has to be good.. By good I mean convincing.. Motivators for heros in fantasy stories are numbered: saving the world.. Preventing a war or massacre.. Saving lives.. And yes.. Love..
For me to believe a hero will battle dragons and slay armies to be with his one.. Or save her.. I should be convinced of his feelings and of the strength of.. Dare I say it again.. The romance..

[Will]

Vixenne wrote: "Will wrote: "One issue with the subject is that a lot of the fantasy writers are blokes. And you girls all know how good we are with relationships...."

I beg to differ here. Nicholas Sparks (not..."

Then I envy him. I'm great at writing the intimate relationships between dwarfs, beer, pizza and jazz. More meaningful relationships are, as in real life, less easy...

[Jonathan]

ShyNight wrote: "With respect to all opinions but the driving force behind a lot of great fantasy novels is romance.. And the romance has to be good.. By good I mean convincing.. Motivators for heros in fantasy sto..."

Again - would you care to point out some examples because I've just gone through the last five fantasy novels that I've read and couldn't put romantic interest or love as the central motivator for the protagonist in any of them.

Revenge? Yep.

Revenge again? Yep.

Save the world? Standard.

Save your valley from invasion and avert a war (possibly love but platonic)? Check that.

Being true to yourself and becoming the hero that you need to be? All riiiiiight.

Each of these stories have romance arcs (Name of the Wind has the best of the lot IMO), yet they are not the driving force of the book.

I'm railing too hard against Romance here and it's something that I genuinely do like to see well done but I hate that it's become a prerequisite in fantasy literature and with the way its going in terms of Twilight/50SoG(not fantasy really but give it time) mainstream popularity I fear for the longevity of the purity and quality of my favourite genre.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

@Jon: I agree!

I like romance elements as well, but when I'm trying to find fantasy and end up wading through an endlesss sea of TWU WUV disguised as fantasy, it's disheartening.

[ShyNight]

Jon wrote: "ShyNight wrote: "With respect to all opinions but the driving force behind a lot of great fantasy novels is romance.. And the romance has to be good.. By good I mean convincing.. Motivators for her..."

Believe it or not we are on the same page.. I meant romance is a motivator, like many, and if/when a writer decides to use it that it should be convincing.. Not lengthy or elaborative or even detailed.. Love is a familiar feeling and just like revenge can easily be related to.. 'The sword of truth' book series uses love as a driver.. Not the focal point of the story.. As should be when one chooses romance in his fantasy-fiction..
And again I agree with you.. Love shouldnt be a prerequisite to fantasy.. I too hate how it's popping up in popular mainstream fantasy and being associated with it .. As if a fantasy story isn't complete without romance..

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Jon wrote: "Are you suggesting that you wouldn't enjoy a fantasy story where the romance arc was not the central plot line?

I'm with Martin on this one. I read and write fantasy for tales of fantastical places and wondrous events. Romance can be there if it is organic to the characters and I expect there to be some drama and strife to that but I just can't take many stories seriously that offer just the romance.

In fact I'll go so far as to suggest that I've never once read a compelling fantasy book where romance is front and centre. If anyone can suggest a decent one I'll add it to my list, read it and if you are proven right I will come back here and publicly refute my own opinion (well, for some of the time at least). "

I'm suggesting that the idea of romance in a fantasy needs to be as real as any other part of the book. The same care taken in writing battle/fight scenes needs to be given to the romance. Otherwise you get what you're getting now: Ham-fisted, poorly written romances with bad characterizations.

I'm reading Belgarath the Sorcerer right now. Time and again the author points out that all the world & life saving is done "in the name of love." Also, the relationship that Belgarath has with his wife is one of the central motivators in his life. This book is no where near a romance...but the romantic elements were done a lot better than what we typically get today.

[Bev]

I think that modern fantasy has a problem with romance or relationships. It is billed as the most important part of the story which oldtimers like myself object to.

This could be because lots of modern so called fantasy is aimed at young adults aka teenagers. If I recall correctly, all you think about at that age is relationships or sex/romance. Hence it would seem to be a ploy by authors or publishers to push that angle to promote sales. We have seen this formula work in such books as Twilight and The Hunger Games. However I truly believe that real fantasy/scifi fans care more for other elements within their reads.
This fad will fade and the public will cotton on and get bored with all the repetition.

[Joe]

I think romance has been not only a part of Fantasy but a part of other genre's too. Even from a man's perspective I think it's safe to say that we want our favorite character to get his lady!

Say some other people mention romance in Tolkien's novels but they seemed more of an undertone than an actual part of the plot to me.

[Bill]

Joe wrote: "...some other people mention romance in Tolkien's novels but they seemed more of an undertone than an actual part of the plot to me. ..."

I agree. I think the movies ruined this aspect of Tolkien, esp the Arwen/Aragorn conflict. For me the book was much more about Arwen giving up Elvish ways and lifespan than about her love of Aragorn, though that is there.

OTOH, I thought the Faramir/Éowyn developing love during their healing downplayed by the movies.

[Will]

Kernos wrote: "Joe wrote: "...some other people mention romance in Tolkien's novels but they seemed more of an undertone than an actual part of the plot to me. ..."

I agree. I think the movies ruined this aspect..."

I suspect that running time had a factor there, kernos, or we might have seen more of that part of the books. I wonder if such scenes were shot, but ended on the cutting room floor?

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Will wrote: "Kernos wrote: "Joe wrote: "...some other people mention romance in Tolkien's novels but they seemed more of an undertone than an actual part of the plot to me. ..."

I agree. I think the movies rui..."

According to [one of] the Tolkien class I took, the movie versions had a major problem certain parts of the books. They cut a lot of stuff that would have been difficult to translate into film.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Joe wrote: "I think romance has been not only a part of Fantasy but a part of other genre's too. Even from a man's perspective I think it's safe to say that we want our favorite character to get his lady!

Sa..."


^This.

I think that - as a romance reader - the major issue is not the inclusion of romance but the way the romance is handled.

As a romance reader...I tell you that the things you guys are complaining about are the basically same things romance readers are complaining about right now.

It's not the romance...it's the poor writing. And as long as we continue to buy books with poor writing...we will continue to get more of the same.

Don't blame the romance, blame the authors and the publishers.

[Snarktastic Sonja]

I think - as a fantasy reader - that most do not mind a good fantasy which includes a romance. What we mind is a romance which includes a bit of fantasy. While there IS a VERY fine line often between the two, the proliferation of paranormal romance makes it much harder to find the first.

Note: In no way to I object to the publication of PNR, I am HIGHLY in favor of ANYthing that encourages others to read. I just wish their was a better way to classify books so that I didn't have to weed through pages and pages of PNR recommendations to arrive at ONE book that might actually sound interesting to me.

[Bev]

Sonja wrote: "I think - as a fantasy reader - that most do not mind a good fantasy which includes a romance. What we mind is a romance which includes a bit of fantasy. While there IS a VERY fine line often betwe..."

Sonja totally agree with you. Seems to be a lack of ( for want of a better term)ordinary fantasy.

[A.L.]

I think it depends (says the writer of fantasy/fantasy romance.) If the book is more about the relationship between Bob the Wizard and Jane the Rogue and overshadows all else then I would say that is romance in a fantasy setting.
However if during the course of the adventures Bob and Jane decide to get down to it then it still counts as fantasy.

Surely it is unrealistic for characters moving and working closely together not to get "friendly."

[Olga]

Alexandra wrote: "Surely it is unrealistic for characters moving and working closely together not to get "friendly."

I think this is what good romance is all about: two people meet, maybe don't like each other at first, then in the process of working together they discover that they really like each other a lot. Sex is just a side effect, which the romance writers (and publishers) of today seem to have forgotten. The founder of romance as a genre, Georgette Heyer, didn't have any sex in her novels, but they are still the best romances I've read.
Romance is a good addition to any genre - be it fantasy, sci-fi, mystery or western - when done tastefully. But often writers just toss it in their novel to make it seem 'deep'. In reality, they make it feel shallow more often than not.

[Jonathan]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Jon wrote: "Are you suggesting that you wouldn't enjoy a fantasy story where the romance arc was not the central plot line?

I'm with Martin on this one. I read and write fantasy for tales of fanta..."

Ok. This I can certainly get behind.

I see as many poorly done combat scenes as I do romance but at least bad combat doesn't leave me cringing and despairing for the fate of humanity :P

Oh and I will take a look at Belgarath. Thanks for the recommendation.

[A.L.]

Sonja wrote: "I agree with others that romance has been, and likely always will be, a part of fantasy. That being said, I do believe that the introduction of Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy have definitely ..."
Best avoid mine then it has lots of sex in;)
It is nice sometimes to have a fantasy without it though or at least alluded too.

[Karen]

Vixenne wrote: "Maybe I missed something, but there wasn't a lot of "rumpy pumpy" (I love that phrase and as any good author does will steal it to use somewhere, LOL). in Misty Lackey's books, especially the Tarma..."

I thought the phrase was "rumpy bumpy" not "rumpy pumpy"! First time I heard that in a British movie it really cracked me up! :)

[Karen]

Alexandra wrote: "Sonja wrote: "I agree with others that romance has been, and likely always will be, a part of fantasy. That being said, I do believe that the introduction of Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy ha..."
I write and read medieval fantasy and I like the added spice of romance and sex in my books. It is not the focal point of my books, but I think it adds an extra dimension that modern readers enjoy.

[Bev]

Karen wrote: "Vixenne wrote: "Maybe I missed something, but there wasn't a lot of "rumpy pumpy" (I love that phrase and as any good author does will steal it to use somewhere, LOL). in Misty Lackey's books, espe..."

Trust me its definately rumpy pumpy.

[Karen]

LOL! :)

[Michael]

I prefer more "romance" than "hot-steamy-sex" in all my reading, and it seems like a lot of the recent fantasy releases are really just "hot books" set in fantasy worlds or with paranormal aspects.

I know a lot of people loved Stardust, but it hit one of my pet-peeves which is to put a male and female "together" for a trip and then they suddenly fall in love.

[Snarktastic Sonja]

Michael wrote: "I prefer more "romance" than "hot-steamy-sex" in all my reading, and it seems like a lot of the recent fantasy releases are really just "hot books" set in fantasy worlds or with paranormal aspects...."

Yep. Romance is about a relationship. The 2nd behinds behind closed doors. At least in my opinion. (OMG, I have just aged myself. ;))

[Maggie]

I know a lot of people loved Stardust, but it hit one of my pet-peeves which is to put a male and female "together" for a trip and then they suddenly fall in love. "

Remember, Stardust is a fairy tale. People fall in love in fairy tales for no reason at all all the time. But I don't think that's really the case here. They don't fall in love suddenly. For half their time together all he can talk about is the vapid Victoria, and Star thinks he's just stupid and boorish, and wants to get away from him--which she does with terrible consequences.