How has the introduction of romance affected the fantasy genre?

[Sandra]

In my case, romance actually introduced me to the fantasy genre. There was a TV series I loved that got canceled after a short season, and I began looking for substitutes. Some fellow fans introduced me to PNR and I read some of those, joined Goodreads, and found fantasy. While I now prefer other types of fantasy I still enjoy a good romance now and then and have to admit that Sookie Stackhouse is a guilty pleasure, although I hate the TV series.

What do the rest of you think?

[Jennifer]

I think romance has always been part of the fantasy genre. I am remembering the D&D world books I read as a kid. Lots of "true love" in some of those ones!! :)

To me, I do not enjoy a fantasy when the MAIN component is the romance. You can't escape that part of it, I think, but I am thinking for some reason of the Darkfever series which is written by a romance novelist and is actually found in the romance section of my bookstore! I don't think that series belongs in the romance section. I think all of this paranormal romance crud (ack!) should have its own section.

I guess I don't mind the romance in my fantasy, as long as I would CLEARLY not file the book in the romance section! :)

[Cheryl]

I'm not a strong fan of pure romance. Oh, sure, I went through the Harlequin and Gothic romance phase back when I was younger, but, after awhile, I guess I became more jaded and cynical and found the formulaic sameness boring.

Now, I don't mind some romance in my fantasy, as long as it doesn't overshadow the fantastical elements. And, as long as it's one man and one woman...not the dreaded love triangle, which is a technique that is way overused in my opinion, especially in young adult paranormal.

[Razmatus]

I dont mind it as long as it is kept fairly complex and not just omg he loves her and she loves him and they marry lol... Erikson is doing it in a fairly nice way without being too sugarry all the way... especially the Barghast love habits are hilarious :D

[Cheryl]

Same with Jim Butcher's Codex Alera series. There are a couple of romances going on in those books, such as Amara and Bernard and Tavi and Kitai, but these relationships are definitely not the saccahrine kind nor are they overwhelming the storyline in any way.

[S.J.]

There was another thread called "sick and tired of the heroic asexual characters" which dealt with a lot of this topic too. I have to say I get disappointed when there's absolutely NO romance in a fantasy story when there could be. I don't like it when authors ignore what could happen between characters just because they're uncomfortable writing about it. Having said that, for romance to fit in a story for me, it has to fit with the plot, be well written (none of this love at first sight stuff!), and it has to add something to the story.

[Wastrel]

Jaq wrote: "It really irritates me that Romance authors are classifying their books as Fantasy. Romance has been around just as long and is a distinctive and separate genre.

When I look at something classed ..."

Sooo.... doesn't matter if the book has wombat-centaur wizards throwing fireballs while riding on the back of dragons over an abyss of demonic hordes... once two of those wizards start kissing, well, gee, that's a ROMANCE novel. Not fantasy. No, not at all...


Regarding the OP - when has romance not been part of fantasy? Even famously-reticent Tolkien included romance plots in his work.

[Hayley]

Romance in a fantasy is all well and good - as long as the fantasy aspect isn't overshadowed. If I wanted a romantic fantasy I'd go to the 'Romance' genre and pick from there. I pick a fantasy book for the fantasty storyline, romance can be involved as long as it's not too overpowering or 'in your face'.

[Traci]

When you're reading a full blown romance believe me you know. I don't see that it affects fantasy too much actually. Urban Fantasy has blurred a little though. But my mom reads romance but hates anything supernatural and she notices a difference more than I do. I have read and loved paranormal romance but my mom has complained that with it's popularity a lot of romance authors are throwing their hats in to capitalize on it.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

There has always been a romantic element in fantasy, but it tends to be handled in a far more subtle fashion, as an offshoot of the main theme(s)/plot. The characters (when written well) grow into the relationship. Romantic fantasy, which kind of bugs me a little, has become--much like paranormal--the it subgenre and with so many authors wanting to get in on it, the writing suffers greatly. Not to mention they were probably horrible romance writers to begin with, but now they throw some faeries in and a magickal quest just to cash in.

[Razmatus]

Whiskeyjack & Korlat <3 :)))

[Kris43]

Some romance is ok with me, but when it becomes the main focus and all else revolves around it then its not ok anymore. Most paranormal romances that i have read are mind-numbingly boring, with inferior plot, no development, shallow as a puddle.

Its like:
GIRL: OMG! you so beautiful and drop dead gorgeous and im gonna love you forever.
GUY: I've spent centuries in torment and nobody touched my cold vampire/werewolf/shifter/fey/demon..etc heart like you just did!
THE 3RD GUY: OMG! She's so beautiful, i have to have her! We are going to be awesome together!

[Sandra]

LOL.

[Sandra]

Still romance is incredibly popular. Nora Roberts hauls in 60 million dollars a year! I sigh and wish other kinds of writing could make even a quarter of that.

[Kris43]

I just hope it stays that way. Everything that is popular isn't necessary a good thing.

Ok, i understand that for a writer, its frustrating. And the easiest way would be to go with it and cash in on it. But a good writer can make it without contributing to a parade of bad taste. Its so much harder to make a quality fantasy piece, the sort of books that Jaq mentioned. That is fantasy!

Let lovey-dove stuff stay where is belongs. If not, then im going to spend more time with my other 'love' - horror! They stake sparkly stuff there:)

[Sandra]

Do any of you think the PNR and UF genres have cheapened the reputation of the fantasy genre?

[Hayley]

PNR? UF? Coo blimey you people sure do want to make me think today :S
I personally don't find myself reading Paranormal or Urban Fantasy books (I hope that's what you were talking about) as they don't appeal to me personally. As such I couldn't say whether they have cheapened or enriched the genre as a whole, however, the will have broadened the fanbase and one can only hope that someone brought into the fantasy section by them may chance to look around and decide to pick up an epic fantasy or something, which would lead to good things :D

[Sandra]

Well that's exactly what happened to me, but the public at large and the literary community? I wonder.

[Hayley]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Well that's exactly what happened to me, but the public at large and the literary community? I wonder."

If it can happen to one then it can happen to more... and soon, SOON WE SHALL HAVE THEM ALL!!! *cough* sorry, where was I? Oh yes, the Fantasy fans taking over the world, that's right.... Mwuahaha!

[Sandra]

lol

[Hayley]

Sorry, I should probably point out it's been a really slow day at work and when my mind gets bored it wanders onto these sort of things, my bad :S

[Wastrel]

Jaq wrote: "Wastrel wrote: "once two of those wizards start kissing, well, gee, that's a ROMANCE novel.."

Not at all. There's a romantic angle in most stories, regardless of genre. But if the romance is centr..."

Maybe, but it will also read like a fantasy novel. So I suppose what matters is whether you want to read fantasy (in which case who cares if there's also romance in it) or whether you just want to avoid reading fantasy. The latter is legitimate, but it's weird to protest that fantasy romances are in the fantasy section just because you want to be able to use 'fantasy' as a label to avoid romance with.

[Wastrel]

Kris43 wrote: "I just hope it stays that way. Everything that is popular isn't necessary a good thing.

Ok, i understand that for a writer, its frustrating. And the easiest way would be to go with it and cash in..."
Who SAYS that romance doesn't belong in the same book as dragons?

[I'd quibble over Pern, by the way - several of the books seem to primarily be romance stories, and iirc one of the short stories is nothing but a sex scene with some romance tacked on]

And yeah, you'd NEVER get romance in horror. Imagine, what teenager would read a romance novel with, like, vampires in it, or werewolves, or creepy stalkers?

[Kris43]

A teenage romance novel with like vampires in it and werewolves and creepy stalkers are called YA paranormal romance and are something completely different than horror.


As for romance belonging in the same book with dragons. Sure it can. You can put romance in the same book with what ever you want, but if its a book primary about romance then its a romance book and not a fantasy one.

You do understand a difference between a romance novel and a element of romance in a novel, right?

[Olga]

Romance in a fantasy novel is good - when done tastefully. I dislike most of PNR novels, but a story of how two lovers find each other in a fantasy world can be a fascinating one. Sharon Shinn comes to mind. Her books always include a romantic line but it's often secondary to the fantasy line.

[Jonathan]

In my opinion the prevalence of romance into the fantasy genre has become overdone. Initially I thought it was a much needed breath of air, bringing realism to one dimensional characters. Now unfortunately I feel as though a love interest is almost a required trait of a character and I think that we have gone full swing.

Romance in fantasy needs greatly to be better done. Used as a motivation love can be an extremely powerful tool. Used as a core plot device it is often predictable and a little cringeworthy.

[Elizabeth]

Razmatus wrote: "I dont mind it as long as it is kept fairly complex and not just omg he loves her and she loves him and they marry lol... Erikson is doing it in a fairly nice way without being too sugarry all the ..."

I agree. Erikson's romances are far more believable because they aren't perfect, rosy versions of love. Romance handled badly can ruin a good fantasy. Look at the WOT series. Perrin going all drippy over Faile. Mat going all drippy over Tuon. Rand going all drippy over Elaine, Min and Aveiendha. Need I go on? It turned into a soap opera!

[A.E.]

Romance and love are both epic sources of tension and are worthy additions to any genre. However, when they cross over to the majority of said tension, and graphic scenes are involved, I would like to see the book placed into Paranormal Romance. I read The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and expected, well, a plethora of royalties, and I felt I would have been far better prepared for the actual content if it were listed as a paranormal.

Kushiel's Dart is direct in what it entails: A woman whose superpower is masochism in the bedroom, but, here, I thought the book revolved around intrigue more than sex. She does fall into the honey trap of "throbbing cock," though. Blah! The Wise Man's Fear does have some sex nouns in it, which may have surprised people. I would like to point out that you can only spill the orange viscera from so many thousands of orcs before readers get numb to it. A bit of a romp in the enchanted woods is a much needed diversion for the genre.

I would say the keys are correct marketing, and verbage that does not draw the reader out of the fantasy setting. Because romance is going to happen. Couples who swing swords together, stay together.

[Michelle]

I read both genres. Also, someone in another thread I was reading said romance is like junk food fun to read with very little substance.

I think if I read a fantasy ( as opposed to a paranormal romance) I am expecting some in depth stuff. I would consider true fantasy to be roger zelazny, Brandon Sanderson, Brent weeks, Trudi Canavan etc. if I'm feeling like reading fluff I will go pick myself up a paranormal romance. And I like when I am reading any genre that I can put it firmly in a category. As long as the romance in my fantasy actually fits I don't mind.

[Kris43]

Michelle said it very well. I also like to be able to put things in certain categories, so I'll know what to expect. And when I'm in certain mood, I know what to pick up.

From fantasy I want depth and substance. There is nothing wrong with fluff, just not when i don't want it.

Paranormal's are like a contaminant. And some of their targeted audience has such low expectations. I don't want that to happen to fantasy, or horror...or any other genre. So i'm thrilled that there is a genre just for them, they should stay there.

[Bill]

Hayley wrote: "Romance in a fantasy is all well and good - as long as the fantasy aspect isn't overshadowed. If I wanted a romantic fantasy I'd go to the 'Romance' genre and pick from there. I pick a fantasy book..."

I agree with you, Hayley. In general I do not like romance, like porn it gets boring quickly. I do not mind relationships which may be romantic, but certainly do not want it to be a major part of a novel. Or if it is an important theme, I don't want mushy, but conflict that drives or is related to other themes. I think Janny Wurts did an excellent job of integrating the romance of Arithon and Elaira into her epic fantasy. But, PNR, please. I don;t even consider it Fantasy.

[S.A.]

I guess when romance and comedy enter into fantasy, it blows most people's minds. What do people consider Terry Prachett? He throws romance and comedy into the mix. Is he a rogue outlaw?

[Chris]

Though I would say in one form or another romance has always been a part of the genre, it's definitely true it's been on the upswing of importance in a lot of recent entries to fantasy.

Fluff is a problem when you get too much of it, but I would say on the whole, the way that most use it--as simple, honest to god character devices--works well. The works of Robin Hobb, for example. Romance always factors into the lives of the characters therein, but is it the driving force of the series at large? No. It does beautifully for fleshing out characters, and giving them greater depth, for connections and the drawing of the reader down deeper into the lives of what they're witnessing...but Hayley's got the right of it, it should work in conjunction with, not overshadow the primary fantasy aspect. When romance is the primary drive--oh dears, guess what, they have another genre for that.

Unfortunately, this is also a day and age where you have so many books bouncing between the genres because so many silly people don't know how to classify them, and that leads to problems in its own right...

As to Pratchett, well, he has his niche. He does it well. Would or could everyone pull it off? No. Amusing to think of him as an "outlaw," though.

[Eyehavenofilter]

Do you think that romance and fantasy are mutually exclusive?
I like a bit of romance is ok

[Sam]

Kris43 wrote: "Michelle said it very well. I also like to be able to put things in certain categories, so I'll know what to expect."

Quite the opposite with me. I like authors who know how to mix ideas into something new but harmonious. If an author starts to think his story in "certain categories", he might write predictably and maybe reproduce one single idea in various books. That's definitely not what I want. But I'm not saying every book clearly fitting a category is like this. It is maybe more relaxing to read such books.

[Traci]

S.A. wrote: "I guess when romance and comedy enter into fantasy, it blows most people's minds. What do people consider Terry Prachett? He throws romance and comedy into the mix. Is he a rogue outlaw?"

Not sure what you mean by this. I love romance and humor, its my favorite kind, but Pratchett doesn't come to mind at all. The Princess Bride. Stardust. Howl's Moving Castle. Those do.

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

I think it has gained some new fans of fantasy genre. Those who read romance with fantasy element might open their eyes to the fact that they can read straight fantasy and find some enjoyable books in that genre. I read fantasy growing up and then got out of the habit. When I read PNR romance, it rekindled my interest in straight fantasy. I probably buy as much fantasy now as I do romance.

[Isabella]

I think the genres (romance and fantasy) always were mixed when it came to fairy tales and myth and legend; so no surprise they've been happily mixing in fantasy stories today. I think it's a good thing. If done well-without neglecting fantastical elements-the romance adds to the characters' personalities, sometimes creates some funny subplots (especially if it's a romcom kind of fantasy like the ones Traci mentions above; also my favourite kind, Traci). Love the way stories are evolving:) Hope more romance readers become fantasy readers and vice versa; am a huge fan of both genres, and always thought they make good bedfellows... no pun intended:)

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I was at Barnes and Noble this weekend and browsing the stacks of the Science-Fiction/Fantasy shelves and found a great deal of the books on the shelves are clearly paranormal romance, but there they were. Just. No.

A part of me believes that placing paranormal romance in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi genre gives it some sort of "credibility" that romance--in spite of being the most recession-proof genre on the market (NYT and Forbes have done articles on the continuing popularity of romance)--finds mysteriously elusive. I can understand the idea of crossover appeal, but the problem is the stories which in my opinion, simply fail to engage what's so special about fantasy.

As I've said before, I'm not adverse to romance in fantasy, but I have certain expectations. I need for the fantasy elements to be first and foremost. I need the worldbuilding to take me somewhere fantastic, and I need for the characters to evolve. If they have a relationship, it has to feel natural. In a lot of paranormal romances, the "romance" is often due to some cliched "binding" or "the one" trope where the reader simply accepts these two characters are going to be together (whether or not they're actually compatible) because that's what sells.

BTW and this is just me, I don't view Kushiel's Dart as paranormal romance. I see it as historical fantasy with heavy sexual/romantic elements. I most certainly wouldn't shelve it with the Harlequins, LOL

[Traci]

I have to disagree, the romance genre has as much "credibility" as any other genre. And a right to be in any book store. I've run into this attitude my whole reading life. There are alot of people who believe that reading fantasy and science fiction is also a big waste of time. Instead of readers alienating other readers I think we should be more united. Not reading romance is a personal choice and doesn't make one any better than anyone else. Not to say I don't understand the frustration over wrong shelving. But to be honest alot of these "border" books don't belong in romance either.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Traci wrote: "I have to disagree, the romance genre has as much "credibility" as any other genre. And a right to be in any book store. I've run into this attitude my whole reading life. There are alot of people ..."

Thank you, Traci.


Romance needs not to be shelved with fantasy to get "credibility." Romance already has credibility. Just ask who makes the most money...it's always Romance. Romance has more lines, sub-genres, more books published per year and a larger readership than just about every genre (with the exception of religious), period.

Also, women readers are the heaviest readers who make the largest volumes of purchase.


So when you add those together...I think that the romances are being shelved with the fantasy in order to start to temp romance readers in to buying fantasy...not the other way around.

[Razmatus]

this is not regarding the quality of the genre - romance also gets so many readers because it has a wider appeal, and in many instances is easier to digest for readers, especially those who dont want to roast their brains out

why romance in fantasy? I can but guess, maybe the publishers just stereotypically think that if they cross fantasy with romance, they will get more female readers

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Razmatus wrote: "this is not regarding the quality of the genre - romance also gets so many readers because it has a wider appeal, and in many instances is easier to digest for readers, especially those who dont wa..."

Ummm...that's what I said...?

[Razmatus]

not really, as far as I read this thread and your last post, I just remember you saying that women do purchase books a lot, and that romance sells well... I dont remember you saying really why... nor anything about the publishers cramming romance into fantasy so they would squeeze more money from women

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Razmatus wrote: "not really, as far as I read this thread and your last post, I just remember you saying that women do purchase books a lot, and that romance sells well... I dont remember you saying really why... n..."

MrsJoseph wrote: "So when you add those together...I think that the romances are being shelved with the fantasy in order to start to temp romance readers in to buying fantasy...not the other way around."

[Razmatus]

I confess to my crimes... and I am so glad punishments are not carried out in Letherii way here lol ;)

well, mutual liking aside :D you are basically right... cramming romance into fantasy just for the hell of it isnt exactly the factor that turns me on to read it... I like when the romance is more subtle in fantasy, when it has to undergo hardships and all to survive in the end - the way you see it was really powerful and fuelled the characters to undergo what they had to... if I wanted romance, I would read either pure romance or a historical romance - or, for instance, classic romance like Jane Austen

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

@Traci and MsJoseph: I think you both missed the gist of my post in your zeal to "protect" romance, LOL.

I agree that romance shouldn't need credibility considering the kinds of sales the genre generates. I work in the romance industry as an editor, so why would I insult it? Trust me, I've attended enough RT and RWA functions to know how well it does and how large the readership is. But sadly, romance like sci-fi/fantasy is not considered "real" or "quality" fiction by some people. That's the problem. And the way I've heard it explained by some industry professionals, the merging of fantasy and romance is calculated to give it that cachet that romance itself just doesn't seem to have. Ironically, these folks view sci-fi/fantasy the same way, but perhaps with a little less disdain. Go figure.

[Michelle]

I think there is plenty of quality romance out there but as far as in-depth novels with all new theological and scientific structures based on complex political dynamics romances aren't generally that. I do in enjoy fantasy and paranormal romances but some days I personally just want something I really have to think about. Lots of romance follows a few similar paths. What I think it is more with romance is how the author gets you there like many of Julia Quinn's novels are excellent and Julie Garwood and Jillian Hunter are just a few of my favorites along with gena showalter Christine freehand and sherrily Kenyon but many of all of their books are almost the same it's the dialogue and quirkiness that makes me Pre-order all their work.

[Michelle]

My shelves are fairly closely split with the majority being romance and fantasy. But I still prefer them to be separate genres and sub-genres. Frankly, I just adore books. Lol

[Eyehavenofilter]

Without Romance we wouldn't be here,
But seriously.... Folks.... Romance is awesome in all genres!.... It adds spice,
tension, goals, heat, fun, a reason for all sorts of things, like oh I dunno....
WAR! Remember Helen of Troy? What about the princess of Barsoom?
Come on kids.... It's our reason for existing!
It's not rings , or power, it's ROMANCE!
Just playing devils advocate, ok?