Group Read: The Catcher In The Rye

[Tiffany, Administrator]

Donna wrote: "If I recall correctly - it's been a few decades - one of the reasons this is considered ground breaking is the way Holden and his contemporaries were portrayed. In the days of "Ozzie and Harriet" a..."

Donna, that is so well-written. I think I'd never put the book in the context of its television contemporaries. I knew that it was from a different time, and I didn't think that there were many books for teens that showed a "real" teen (i.e. Holden acting like a punk), but I don't think I'd compared it to *Ozzie and Harriet* and *Father Knows Best*. Yeah, that's completely different.

And yes, definitely, about the psychiatrist. Nowadays, you're different if you *don't* go to therapy, but that wasn't something that was done or talked about openly back then.

[Tiffany, Administrator]

Now that I'm halfway-ish through the book, and still liking it, I started to wonder why I didn't like it much the second time I read it. I think maybe I let Holden get on my nerves. His affectations (the way he seems to repeat things, as if the reader didn't believe him the first time, or says something or someone "really was" a certain way or "really did" something. Did I question you? Why are you looking at me like I don't believe you? Geez. Plus the swearing -- I don't mind swearing, but do you really need to call it the "****** infirmary"? Do ya need to use that word as an adjective every other sentence? You're angry. Or maybe just showing off. And the way he talks about some things, like the suitcases in chapter 15 -- it's as if his words are saying, "No, no, I'm no better than someone else," but his *tone* is saying "Damn right I am.") get annoying and maybe made me dislike his tone and his thinking (or seeming to think) that he was so much better than the people he went to school with and his family and the random people he met in his adventures... But this time, I'm just sitting back and enjoying the character and Salinger's writing. Even if I don't like Holden (like I didn't last time), he's still *well-written*. He may be annoying, but he's so *true* in his annoyingness, like Salinger is just writing down what he's heard a real-life annoying person saying.

[Mimi V]

Tim wrote: "...The question I wanted to ask and discuss for the first week is:
How relevant do you guys feel this work is after 60 plus years? Is this still a "great book" or has it been relegated to being a period piece?..."

Salinger's work remains relevant today and probably will for years to come. and the writing is timeless. the thing that i find interesting is that schools still (try to) ban this book. i don't find anything in it at all shocking now. i'm sure it was when it was published; but, really? in the 21st century? with everything that kids are exposed to today, i'm amazed when i hear that people still try to keep it out of schools.

i read this book first when i was a teenager/young adult but i don't at all remember how i felt about Holden. now i find him annoying.

[Tim]

I keep seeing Jay Baruchel as Holden as I read the book...Heheh

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0059431/

[Figen]

Tim wrote: "Good morning and happy Saturday all!

Well I'm sure we've all struggled through the lightning pace needed to get through the first seven chapters ;).

The question I wanted to ask and discuss for t..."

I am in chapter 3. I liked the book and the writing style of Salinger. It's very early for me to comment on Tim's question, but people always like " molding boys(/girls) into splendid, clear-thinking young men."

[Kate]

Hi everyone . . . I'm in! I just read the first 7 chapters and get to continue because I started late. Aspberger's vibe, anyone? Poor Holden can't fit in anywhere, can he?
Kate/Western Massachusetts.

[Faye]

Just finished Chapter 15 and I feel sorry for old Holden. I really do.

I still feel this book is well-written, but given Donna's insights about the other available entertainment at the time of first publishing, I now understand that the shock value that would have been extra-exciting back then has certainly worn off.

[Donna]

Damn that James Spader-Judd Nelson-Robert Downey Jr.!!

[Alex]

I agree with Donna and Faye - I don't think the book would have been banned today. It would take something extremely graphic and violent for it to be banned, but even then it won't be banned.

Can you imagine what society was like back then? I constantly disobeyed my parents in the 90s and 2000s!

[Kate]

I understand questions about whether Catcher would still be a classic. Even if the character is less racy than a modern protagonist, though; even if I would be more familiar with an ipad-totin', baggy-jeaned, angst-ridden recycler -- isn't Holden's voice what makes him eternal? Isn't it how well you come to know him despite the decades that makes the impression? Best re-read EVER.

[Donna]

Alexia wrote: "I agree with Donna and Faye - I don't think the book would have been banned today. It would take something extremely graphic and violent for it to be banned, but even then it won't be banned.

Ca..."

No, graphic and violent doesn't get you banned. Sex, that's what'll get you on the burn it list.

And yes, Kate, it is Holden's voice that makes him eternal and readable, but written today? It might make him popular, but probably not iconic. And here's the circular argument: If it weren't for Holden's appearance in 1951, would the disassociated youth be a trope today?

[Sue :)]

I started late but I'm about chapter 10.
I do think it is holding up. It's not contemporary but a period piece now.
I think my real question is, how are the other generations responding to it?
I'll be 60 in a few weeks and actually remember kids who acted like Holden in the 50's. We became more rebelious in the 60's.
Anxious to finish the book.

[Tim]

Susie wrote: "Tim, this is susie from the blue grass st. I have had a sm. prob. w/an on going health prob. I haven,t been home for awhile so i haven't started our book. I will start asap & try to cathch up w/ ev..."

No problem Susie! I had a crushed optic nerve around Christmas time, and I wasn't sure reading was going to be in the cards anymore...sometimes life slows you down from what you'd like to get done! :) Catch up when you can and nice to have you in the group.

[Tim]

Donna wrote: "Alexia wrote: "I agree with Donna and Faye - I don't think the book would have been banned today. It would take something extremely graphic and violent for it to be banned, but even then it won't..."

I think to translate the voice into today Catcher would have had to have been written by Palahniuk or Bukowski. I have to say after having read Catcher and Franny and Zooey this month I am not a Salinger fan.

[Tim]

Second Saturday and halfway through the book!

We've moved on to the city and we have Holden getting into some bad situations, and missing his sister.

In the first section it was dead brother that was on his mind. In this section the sister.

My question for this week is:

Holden seems to have a singular ability to not fit in anywhere. How much of this is just who he is? How much of it is family and upbringing?

If you base your answers on the first half of the book we're not given a ton of information, but I would like to see what people feel about this character. How is his hopelessness expressing itself to you?

[Faye]

Hmm. Good question, Tim. Even though a couple of people have mentioned Holden's inability to fit in, I didn't really take note of that aspect of the book. His relationship with others seemed pretty natural and normal to me - I was thinking this was just part of the teen experience and didn't attribute it to family problems or personality traits. Maybe that says more about me than Holden! :) I am curious as to where this book is going to go from here.

[Carol]

Holden is unable to cope with his brother's death and is a prime candidate for an intervetion. Unfortunately, there is no one there to help: his mother has withdrawn, his father goes on business trips, his older brother moved to California. Phoebe seems to be the person he is reaching out to - at least in his thoughts. But will he live through the book? I've finished the book so I know the answer to that, but he's just put himself into a very dangerous situation with the prostitute and her pimp that could have ended very differently. Is he unconsciously wanting to die? Most likely because that will end the pain he feels about his brother. Today there are many ways to get help for the way Holden is feeling and to prevent the ways that he deals with it. Not so in the period of this book. Today, hopefully, this whole family would be in counseling. They certainly need it.

[Donna]

This is what I meant about the exploration of Holden's psyche. Salinger does it in a show not tell way. Holden seems to have been, to all intents and purposes, a fairly normal kid until Allie's death. Having been in Holden's shoes, losing someone at a young age, I can tell you that there are all sorts of trust issues that arise that can effect your ability to connect with people. Fear of loss is a powerful inhibitor when it comes to realtionship building. Add in that Holden's family fracturing when they most needs to support each other, and he is left floundering with nowhere to connect. His sister really is all he has left, and that's fraught with conflicting emotions.

And then there's the whole survior guilt thing added to the common self esteem issues of adolescence.

As I've been reading I've been noticing things that today we have common terms: survivor guilt, disassociation, date rape, dysfunctional family.

[Figen]

Carol wrote: "Holden is unable to cope with his brother's death and is a prime candidate for an intervetion. Unfortunately, there is no one there to help: his mother has withdrawn, his father goes on business tr..."

I am in chapter 17. His brother's death is the key point in Holden's problems. He met the death and everything changed. I thought of "Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera while I was reading the book.
Maybe it will seem you strange but I could not see Holden as a teenager. He is different from the rest of the society. He is very sensitive. Remember "the suitcase" in chapter 15. He sees every detail in his life and the people around him and the devil hides in details. He is very depressed.

[Carol]

I also see Holden as older than he is. I'm not sure the book puts an age on him, but he should probably only be 16 or 17. I didn't think about that until reading a commentary on the book. This piece also said that the book was written for an adult audience but became popular with teens because of the teen issues it deals with. I don't think this was ever required reading in any of my high school lit classes, and I can see why. Is there any teacher equipped for the class discussion of this novel?

[Sue :)]

Carol wrote: "I also see Holden as older than he is. I'm not sure the book puts an age on him, but he should probably only be 16 or 17. I didn't think about that until reading a commentary on the book. This piec..."

It was required in my daughters high school AP English class.

[Carol]

I am guessing that your daughter is much younger than I am. I graduated from high school 45 years ago, less than 20 years after The Catcher in the Rye was published. So I'm thinking that at that time, this book had perhaps not made the classic list yet. Teenagers at that time did not encounter such tortured lifestyles as we (they) have today (especially in the midwest where I grew up) although we were not without our problems - which makes me ask "Where did Salinger get his character Holden?" Did he base him on someone he knew, on himself, or did he foresee into the future that today's young people would travel this path of rebellion, insecurities, broken families, etc.?

[Mimi V]

Donna wrote: "And here's the circular argument: If it weren't for Holden's appearance in 1951, would the disassociated youth be a trope today?..."

it's a good question. did this book influence, for instance, The Wild Bunch or Rebel Without a Cause? or would they have been written and produced with Holden Caulfield? i think that, in general, every generation thinks that the next generation is unfathomable (and going to hell)

[Figen]

Carol wrote: "I am guessing that your daughter is much younger than I am. I graduated from high school 45 years ago, less than 20 years after The Catcher in the Rye was published. So I'm thinking that at that ti..."

I think he based on himself while writing the book. he is also a secluded person.

[Tiffany, Administrator]

Carol wrote: "I also see Holden as older than he is. I'm not sure the book puts an age on him, but he should probably only be 16 or 17. I didn't think about that until reading a commentary on the book. This piece also said that the book was written for an adult audience but became popular with teens because of the teen issues it deals with. I don't think this was ever required reading in any of my high school lit classes, and I can see why. Is there any teacher equipped for the class discussion of this novel?"

There's something (or some things) in the book that I think places his age at around 16 or 17, but I always think of him as being in college. And I keep having to remind myself as I read that no, he's only a Junior in *high school*, not college. Maybe it's the whole going-off-to-school-somewhere thing that catches me -- I'm not used to private/boarding schools in my own experience, so since he's talking about being away at school and going home from school and others returning home from school, I *feel* like it must be college, because college is when you *go away* to school, not just drive down the street to your high school.

As for the book being required reading in high school, I *think* it was required in my Honors English class in the 90s. But for the life of me, I can't even think of *one* thing we talked about, so maybe it was extra credit, and not required. It's pretty crazy that I can't think of *anything* we talked about for this book.

[Sofia]

I JUST purchased this book, so I am excited to get started on it -- I will contribute then. Thanks for your patience :)

[Tiffany, Administrator]

May I ask a really (perhaps) stupid question? What does everything think is the symbolism of the title? (I'm adding a spoiler alert here just in case ... I don't really think it's spoilery, though.) (view spoiler)[Towards the end of the book (chapter 22), Holden is talking to Phoebe about the Robert Burns poem with the line "If a body catch a body" in a rye field, and he says he'd like to be the catcher ("I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all."). ... So, is the title alluding to him catching people before they go over the edge (of sanity?), or is someone else catching him before he goes over? Or am I making more of this than there is? (hide spoiler)]

[Tiffany, Administrator]

And for two quick comments--

In chapter 24, when Holden is talking to his former teacher, I think it's funny/ironic that Holden says 1) he doesn't like people who "always [say] things like 'So you and Pencey are no longer one.'" (You mean the way you say "I really did," and "It really was," and all that?) and 2) that he likes when people digress when they're talking. hehe... like he does.

[Faye]

I'm not sure what to make of the title symbolism, Tiffany, but since it made the title, I'm curious, too.

I had to read ahead; I'm done - my library copy is due Tuesday.

[Tim]

That's a great question for this week!

What do people think the meaning of the title is?

No cheating and looking it up ;)

[Tim]

Well I broke my own rules and finished the book.

(view spoiler)[To answer the question about the title, I think it becomes obvious that Holden wants to be a saviour, or catcher, so no one else in his life dies. He fantasizes about catching the little kids before they run over the cliffs...a complete symbol for those he's already lost in their falls. I was actually glad that Holden ended up in therapy at the end of the book. The kid was a mess! You can't blame him though. (hide spoiler)]

[Crystal]

As for the question of the week about the title: (view spoiler)[I think it symbolizes his wanting to keep the kids safe so they play and can continue to be innocent. He doesn't want kids to suffer or see things that would make them grow up too fast. (hide spoiler)] Spoiler for later in the book, in conclusion to what I was saying:
(view spoiler)[Like when he is desperately trying to scribble the "fuck you"'s off the wall in the school so no children, especially his sister, will have to see it. He is saddened when he realizes that he will never be able to get rid of all the f-you's. He realizes eventually a child will read it. Eventually, they will loose their innocence (hide spoiler)]

[Alex]

I'm not going to spoil it for those who followed the rules. I thought the title was absolutely PERFECT for this book.

[Alex]

I agree 100% with Crystal and Tim.

[Tiffany, Administrator]

Crystal wrote: "As for the question of the week about the title:..."

Tim and Crystal, I think I agree with what you both said. Crystal, I think your view was very insightful -- I also picked up on what you mentioned, but didn't make the connection between that particular instance (or the two, since it happens twice, right?) you cited and the title. You're good! :)

[Figen]

Crystal wrote: "As for the question of the week about the title: [spoilers removed] Spoiler for later in the book, in conclusion to what I was saying:
[spoilers removed]"

I also finished the book. Dear Crystal I pertectly agree with you. I may also add that (view spoiler)[ because of the fall of James Castle in his old school he wants to be a catcher. It was very tragic and unfair. (hide spoiler)]

[Faye]

Thank you, Tim, for moderating and thanks to everyone else for the discussions. Cheers.

[Crystal]

Yes thanks for moderating Tim - Ill try to not read ahead in the next group read :)