Group Re-Read (SPOILERS) of Voyager! Topic question #130 on page 3

[Diane]

Her character reminds me of many characters Maureen O'Hara has played (the parent trap, the quietr man etc.) not the appearence but the feistiness. (although her looks could have been a sister to Jamie with the large build and red hair if Jenny looked differently)

[Lisa]

That's a really good comparison and now I'll picture a mini-O'Hara as Jenny :)

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

I don't think that he could be honest about what Claire was and where she was from. It was hard for Claire to tell Frank and look how he treated her. There's no way that Loaghaire would have even remotely believed that. It was better to just say that she had 'gone'. Jamie never said she was dead, just that she was gone and not coming back. He thought this was the truth.

I think that Loaghaire knew exactly how much Jamie still loved Claire. I think she just thought that as time went on it would fade and Jamie would start to love her more. (view spoiler)[I think at some point in the series she even admits this. (hide spoiler)] I'm not blaming Loaghaire. I think she did as most women who are in love with a man would do. She tried to change his mind. I'm probably on the side who doesn't hate Loaghaire. I actually feel really sorry for her. She fell in love with a man who loved someone else. He married someone else and she found herself in a disgusting marraige with a disgusting abusive man. Finally after years she gets a chance with Jamie and her own abuse and his love of a woman that both of them thought was out of the picture shattered the idea that she could be happy with him. She had a hard life, and she did what she could to keep her land and provide for her daughters, not to mention how much she loved her girls. She made mistakes, she wasn't perfect, but I felt for her.

I just don't think that Jamie hid anything from her, except the supernatural part, and that was probably for the best.

For me, while I think that Claire overreacted a bit, I don't blame any of them. Well, that's not true, haha. Jamie should have been honest with Claire. Claire shouldn't have run off, Jenny shouldn't have interfered wither with the original marraige to Loaghaire or with convincing Claire to leave, and Loaghaire shouldn't have shot Jamie in the rearend, hahaha. BUT, I think that they are all 'human' (the result of an amazing writer) and sometimes emotions cause us to act irrationally. Jamie was scared, Claire was hurt, and Loaghaire was pissed, lmao. I can think of many times I overreacted, lied because of fear, and lost my temper. That's what makes the story so amazing.

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

Definitely, I totally agree.

[Fawn]

I agree with Wendy and gerrt, but the one thing I never understood was if Loughaire wanted Jamie so bad, why did she cringe when Jamie touched her? I get the feeling she never really loved Jamie. She seemed pretty loose with her affections at Leoch which is why she was going to be beaten in the first place. I just always got the impression that she was the kind of girl that needed men to be attracted to her. I don't know. I think Old Alec was right she just will always be a "girl" and not a mature woman. The things she calls Jamie to Brianna, uncalled for and she knows untrue. She acts like if she can't have what she wants, well then nor can anybody else.

[Kathy]

I couldn't have said it better Fawn. I do think she cringed when Jamie touched her because she knew he was always thinking of Claire.

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

Well, Someone alluded to Loaghaire's previous husband being abusive, sexually. The way he said she acted sounded like a victim of abuse. She was scared of him. And because of that fear she was always dry and tight and it hurt. She wasn't the same girl she was at Leoch. Perhaps if Claire had never showed up in the past and Loaghaire and Jamie had been a match, she may have been very different.

[Fawn]

Thanks Wendy I didn't remember that. I didn't even think of her cringing because she had been abused. She must have never told Jamie that, he seemed to think it was him she was cringing at.


I have forgotten how to hide a spoiler can you tell me again please?

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

< spoiler>put the spoiler here< /spoiler>, you just have to remove the spaces in both the spoiler codes.

I can't remember who it was that said she had an abusive husband. I think they worded it like 'he was too hard' or something. And maybe Jamie did know, but he also had a hard time with why someone might not want him. He kept saying that he would try to get her to let him be gentle. He kept saying he thought he was a good lover but she would just scream. He also admitted in a later book that (view spoiler)[it's hard for his pride to imagine that she wouldn't want to be with him (hide spoiler)].

[Lori]

It might have been me to mention the possible abuse... I don't know that L ever said it - it seemed to be more of a working theory that Claire had from what Marsali told her about how her mom reacted to Jamie and sex. Joan and Marsali wondered if Jamie was too rough with her in the bedroom; but that didn't jive with the man they knew Jamie to be. So I think they thought it was either that L feared childbirth (and possibly dying or had really bad experiences with childbirth) or that their own father might have been too rough - not seeing to L's pleasure, but only his own.

I don't think Jamie ever quite figured it out, either, which is why that part of their relationship was so tough for him. And IMO, why he couldn't let that wondering/thinking go in his head.

In the last book, (view spoiler)[DG seemed to have L say that she never thought Jamie needed her. I don't know how much that "need" played into L's head and spilled into the bedroom. After all, so much of sex is more than the body - if the big brain's not involved, too, then it's just sex. And that can mean a bad experience. (hide spoiler)]

Just my own speculations...

[SandyC]

I agree that Claire over-reacted, but I do believe Jamie should have told her the truth right away. Even though he and L were separated, they were "legally" married (since Claire was presumably dead), which is a big deal! Of course J was afraid to tell her, but he had to have known the longer he waited the worse Claire's reaction would be.

I don't blame Jenny at all for wanting to see her brother settled down with a wife. She knew he was miserable, and she truly believed that marriage would help him.

This was a very difficult situation, and I'm glad Diana wove the marriage to L into the plot. It was very unexpected, and, I think, a brave thing for DG to do since it angered many readers. (Plus we get the additional character of Marsali, who I grew to really like as the books continued.)

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

I really like Marsali too.

We're heading to the end of our reread. Let's touch on young Ian. We're just introduced to him in Voyager. I know for many of us, he grows to be up there in our top 3 favorite characters. What did you think of him? How about his relationship with his parents? His kidnapping... bring all the Young Ian talk on!

[Lisa]

Ah...young Ian...what an entrance he made and bonding with his uncle Jamie hiding in the wardrobe. He causes as much grief with his parents as perhaps Jamie did with his own? In ways, reminds me of my own son. I feel that his parents try to shield him too much, a little overprotective and it makes young Ian rebel even more. Try as they might, they won't be able to keep such a tight leash on their adventurous son, no matter how many times papa Ian has to take his belt to him. One of my fav scenes was when Ian made Jamie punish young Ian with the belt and then Jamie had young Ian do the same to him. Wow. Now that definitely made an impact on Ian.

The kidnapping - oh man! I was sitting on pins and needles, waiting for Jamie and Claire to rescue him. It looks like Ian does take after his uncle Jamie in more ways than one - his knack for falling into dangerous situations. Hmmm...that also describes his auntie Claire. What a trio!

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

I think Ian definitely got Jamie's spirit from his Fraser DNA. William (view spoiler)[looks like Jamie, and has his temper and stubborness. Ian got Jamie's sense of adventure and, yep, falling into dangerous situations, but he got his Da's quiet sweetness (hide spoiler)].

[Lori]

Young Ian won my heart right away... and I almost couldn't stand to wait all that time to find out if they were ever going to find him or get him back.

I see Jenny and his father in him, but as Wendy and Lisa said, Young Ian belongs to Jamie as much as any of the others. I loved it when Jamie told Claire that Young Ian reminded him of her - the way they always seemed to bring trouble.

It did almost break my heart when it was obvious that Young Ian would rather be with Jamie than his own father. But IMO, had Jamie raised Willie, he would have been more like Ian - not quite so willing to allow Young Ian into his adventures. And I think that's part of Jamie's angst and fears when Young Ian is kidnapped.

I didn't think I could love a character as much as Jamie and Claire, but Young Ian definitely won my heart. It's been a pleasure watching him grow through Voyager and beyond.

[Fawn]

Thanks Wendy for th spoiler code! The thing that gets me and what confused Jamie is she seemed into him before they were married (view spoiler)[and she didn't seem to have any issues with humm humm with the help (Joey?) in fact shacking up with him instead of marrying him because that would release Jamie from sending her money (hide spoiler)] gert, that is an interesting theory of Loaghaire being afraid of Claire's spirit. Hmmm I hadn't thought of anything like that. I have to think on that.
Ian Ian Ian, I just love Ian! It seems Ian has a little bit of everyone in him. It seemed that he and his uncle Jamie were one in that wardrobe on the day he was born. It was torturous reading on so many levels when he was kidnapped. (I never understood how that boat could have been in that spot at that time to kidnap Ian) Ian is such a great story there is every emotion when you read about him.

[Lotte]

Hi Ladies, due to some problems with internet I missed the discussion on the relationship between Jamie and Loaghaire. I just read the previous week's comments and would like to come back to messages #117+118 by Wendy and Lori. Reading how you comment on L's repulsive reaction to having sex with Jamie or he even just touching her, I wondered whether we just have a 20th/21st century view (of course, what else should we have!). Though DG let Claire make the statement that the 18th century was not a prudish one, didn't they think that only "bad" women (=prostitutes) would enjoy sex. Did it change so much within one century? While I'm writing this the Victorian quotation "lay back, close your eyes and think of England" comes to my mind. And the relationship beween Claire and Jamie is such a perfect one, also due to how Claire responds.

Furgus's upbringing definitely had influence on his own marriage and on Young Ian's as well!

[Peggyzbooksnmusic]

Hi all, I apologize for not keeping up with the re-read; have gotten somewhat derailed onto a different path of reading books from my TBR list; plus our local library started their yearly summer reading program so have been reading more books from the library.

But as Young Ian is one of my fav characters just wanted to add my comments here before you go on to Drums of Autumn.

From the moment that Young Ian is introduced in Voyager he stole my heart (and if I had been alive back then I would be old enough to be his grandmother! lol!) As much as his father loved him you could see that Young Ian was more like his Uncle Jamie. Would love for DG to write a new series about Young Ian and hope that he has more of a story in book #8.

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

We're nearing the end of the Voyager reread and Lotte had a good idea in that we should discuss the Fraser Prophesy that is mentioned. Does anyone have any ideas or insite into this? In what way do you think this impacts the story?

[Diane]

That part has always confused me, I have nothing.

[Lori]

Wendy F wrote: "We're nearing the end of the Voyager reread and Lotte had a good idea in that we should discuss the Fraser Prophesy that is mentioned. Does anyone have any ideas or insite into this? In what way ..."

It's tough, because I'm not sure how to talk more about this without possible spoilers for the latter books... Should I just put everything in spoiler tags and go for it?

[Brunhilde]

Lori wrote: "Wendy F wrote: "We're nearing the end of the Voyager reread and Lotte had a good idea in that we should discuss the Fraser Prophesy that is mentioned. Does anyone have any ideas or insite into thi..."

I just assumed it has yet to be fully revealed.

[Lori]

Let's start here. The prophecy was given by the Brahan Seer, a 16th century prophet considered a Scottish Nostradamus.

Here's the prophecy: (Chapter 61 of "Voyager")

(Rev Campbell speaking) "The prophecy states that a new ruler of Scotland will spring from Lovat's lineage. This is to come to pass following the eclipse of 'the kings of the white rose'--a clear reference to the Papist Stuarts, of course...."

(Still Rev Campbell)"There are somewhat more cryptic references included in the prophecy, of course; the time in which this ruler will appear, and whether it is to be a king or a queen--there is some difficulty in interpretation, owing to mishandling of the original..."

At that point, Claire is off and wondering about Geilie. Then Mr. Willoughby shows up, and the prophecy isn't mentioned again.

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

Only things that are big spoilers should be marked. You can mention Jamie and Willie and Bree... I guess I just ask that you just do your best to keep it safe.

[Lotte]

Thank you Wendy for raising this subject! Either the others are similarly stunned by this prophesy or they do not think it important. Having followed DG's train of thought through +8 books I think it has to be, though.
Alas, I cannot imagine in which way.

Lori, with your splendid hints and suggestions, what did you mean with "revealing no spoilers", are there any with this matter? There are (so far) 5 more books to follow, but I cannot remember another hint of the prophesy in any of them.

It had to take pains for Geilie to find and contact someone knowing about this prophesy, this one also having access to the Frasers' genealogy chart and bringing these to her "around the world" in the 18th century. What difference could it mean for Geillie to know the Frasers, i.e. Brianna, still lived in the 20th century? Just before being killed by Claire she tells her: "What luck ye should have come to see me, aye? I'd never ha' kent it, other wise. I thought they'd all died out before 1900." She told her something else: "A life for a life. ... I'm sory I shall have to take the girl, but I'll leave ye the man." All this implies for me that Geillie not only wanted to use Brianna as "her anchor" to get back to her own time, but, having arrived there, also to kill her. All other persons having saved as anchors were not harmed. She was a person with many obsessions, but why here, what's the use in preventing the linage to go on?

That's part of another discussion as well: I think, however, we're rid of Geillie for once and for all. You can never tell with DG, we thought so in Outlander as well, in Voyager we "were there" when she was killed and also when her remains were examined after they had been found in a cave in the Caribbean.

[Diane]

I don't think she wanted to stop the Fraser lineage and kill Bree. She was obsessed with Scotland having their own king/queen and since it was said that somebody from the Fraser line would rule Scotland I believe she was going to go to the future( her time) and use Bree to further this obsession either getting her or her future children involved to take the throne. But we know ( as if it all were real) that Scotland still does not have its own rule even in 2012, so either the prophesy is wrong or it has not happened yet. Since DG makes her books historically accurate she probably let this thread go because it could not fit into historical reality.

[Susan]

Diane wrote: "But we know ( as if it all were real) that Scotland still does not have its own rule even in 2012, so either the prophesy is wrong or it has not happened yet. Since DG makes her books historically accurate she probably let this thread go because it could not fit into historical reality."

I think that it may be just an interesting side note that DG came across in her research that she chose to use to emphasize how obsessed Geilie was with freeing Scotland. Thankfully she was unaware of William’s heritage or she would have been after him instead of Bree.

[Lotte]

Diane wrote: "I don't think she wanted to stop the Fraser lineage and kill Bree. She was obsessed with Scotland having their own king/queen and since it was said that somebody from the Fraser line would rule Sco..."

Thank you for your different aspect on this matter. I got this in a completly different way. I'd like to point out what made me think Geillie planned to kill Brianna: When the women have their arguments, Geillie tells Claire "a life for a life ... I saved you from the witch-trial ... I shall have to take the girl, but I'll lieve ye the man". All this reminded Claire of a (minor) car crash of long ago, in which Brianna had been endangered, but which also left her unharmed. Therefore I assumed Briannas life to be threatened by Geillie's returning to her own time. Would she be so by being made queen of Scotland? Many people around the world still think it well worth achievable to be made/elected head of state and no danger at all; one is rather born to be king or queen.

[Brunhilde]

I totally forgot that William can be figured into that prophecy. That is so fascinating and wonderful. Oh the possibilities! And I think it is safe to assume that Gellie knew nothing of him.
Personally, the William aspect of Jamie's life disturbed me a little. I just demand a certain perfection, I think, which I am working on. But I did keep telling myself, "This will be used for good, this will be used for good."
I wish I could be more like Claire.

[Lori]

OK, I haven't commented about this... I was gathering my thoughts. And I'll have to do the spoilers thing, because some of my suppositions are based on info from books beyond Voyager.

First, let me say, I'm not sure of anything where this prophecy is concerned. I think DG is deliberately leaving it open, but as Diane said, she might have simply dropped it? I don't think so. Here's why: (view spoiler)[While Rob in Book 8 wants Jem to show him the location of the gold, Rob was also a co-hort of Geillie's when she was Gillian and in 1968 before her trip back in time. I wonder if Rob knew about the prophecy and might be after Jem for more than one reason? (hide spoiler)]

Yes, Geillie said she'd take the girl and leave Claire the man. IMO, that meant that Geillie was headed back to get Brianna, to use Bree to free Scotland. Remember, Geillie is more than twisted at this time, she's sick; most likely with syphilis, which erodes the mind. Leaving Claire the man meant that she was leaving Jamie. Geillie only shot him when he tried to rush her; I don't think Geillie figured that either Claire or Jamie would risk Ian's life to stop her, and she meant to take Ian's life for the blood part of her ceremony.

No, Geillie didn't know about William. And that's another avenue to the prophecy. The prophecy doesn't say King or Queen, simply "a new ruler" and from the Lovat line. It's still possible, IMO, for DG to work with that in the future tense. OR to work with it for William in some form or fashion as some type of ruler for Scotland. The prophecy never says that Scotland will be free.

Also something to consider is how Jenny's kids fit into this prophecy. She's also from Lovat's lineage, and she's got a bushel full of kids and grandkids. Again, the prophecy only indicates a ruler will come from their line, not a royal.

[Brunhilde]

Lori wrote: "OK, I haven't commented about this... I was gathering my thoughts. And I'll have to do the spoilers thing, because some of my suppositions are based on info from books beyond Voyager.

First, let ..."

Such excellent points, Lori! I totally agree. I think DG isn't done with it and I am sure it going to weave and twist her magic!

[Gwennie, biblioholic]

This concludes our group read of Voyager. Thanks to all who took part. If you would like to continue discussing this book, please see here.