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Group Re-Read (SPOILERS) of Voyager! Topic question #130 on page 3
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Gwennie, biblioholic
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May 19, 2012 10:59AM
They're perfect together. They have the relationship that I think as real people crave.
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How about when Jamie And Claire were in the cellar cleaning up after the shooting of the exciseman, Jamie said to Claire "I had forgotten ." "Forgotten what?" His back was warm through the thin shirt.
"Everything." He spoke very softly, mouth against her hair. "Joy. Fear. Fear most of all. I havena been afraid for a very long time, Sassenach," he whispered. "But now I think I am. For there is something to be lost, now"
I love that scene too! Man, you guys are finding some really great ones.
Lisa wrote: "I agree, Dawn, DG is genius :)Reading on, I found a couple more aspects of Jamie/Claire/Frank's love:
Claire saying to Jamie "Frank loved me, but there were pieces of me, that he didn't know wha..."
I think that second conversation was between Claire and Lord John. I will have to go look it up. But I am pretty sure It was Lord John asking Claire if she knew what it was to love someone and never--never! be able to give them peace, or joy, or happiness?
It was Jamie. LJ didn't know anything about Frank.
That particular conversation wasn't about Frank. It's in Chapter 59 "In Which Much Is Revealed" A woman was killed, Jamie was taken for questioning,Claire was in the Governor's sitting room with Lord John and he is explaining his relationship with Jamie to her. He tells her he should have recognized her on the ship and explains he was the young boy who tried to save her at Carryarrick. He tells her hers were the first woman's breasts he had ever seen. On Page 935 (Dell mass market edition paperback)"Do you know," he said again, softly, addressing his hands, "what it is to love someone, and never--never!--be able to give them peace, or joy, or happiness"? He looked up then, eyes filled with pain. "to know that you cannot give them happiness, not through any fault of yours or theirs, but only because you were not born the right person for them?" I sat quiet. seeing not his, but another handsome face; dark not fair. Not feeling the warm breath of the tropical night, but the icy hand of a Boston winter. Seeing the pulse of light like heart's blood, spilling across the cold snow of hospital linens......only because you were not born the right person for them. "I know," I whispered hands clenched in my lap. I had told Frank--leave me. But he could not no more than I could love him rightly, having found my match elsewhere. Oh, Frank, I said silently forgive me.
John was talking about Jamie, and with that question Claire was thinking about Frank.
Whoops! Thank you Fawn for correcting my mistake :) It certainly makes more sense coming from Lord John (thinking of his love for Jamie), doesn't it? I have so many post-its marking pages in my pb that when I was thumbing thru them trying to find that conversation I heard on my ipod, I failed to notice that it was Lord John saying it and not Jamie. I was thinking it was Jamie saying it while thinking of his marriage to Laoghaire. So many triangles and Claire is in nearly all of them LOL!
I have the same thing Lisa!Sometimes I am reading from my kindle,sometimes I am reading from the book and sometimes I am listening to the audio. My notes are not as organised as I need them to be! I had just listened to that scene on the way home the day before I read your post so it was fresh in my mind. And I do believe there was a scene where Jamie was telling (I think Claire) that he couldn't no matter how hard he tried to, make Laoghaire happy. I haven't found where that is yet. lol Anyway... no matter if it was Jamie or John it is still very deep, loving and heart wrenching. Diana is a master at melting ones heart aye!
We were introduced to Bree and Roger a bit in DIA, but the start of their relationship really happens in Voyager. What did you think about these characters? I know some people struggle with them. What do you like about them as a couple, or as individuals? What do you dislike?
Fawn, I was thinking that conversation was between LJ and Claire. And even on the first reading, when I was anything but a Lord John fan, I FELT for him... that almost tore my heart out, and for a moment, I liked the man and realized how much he really did love Jamie. What a beautiful set of lines... and how poignant that Claire could so relate to them!
OK, on to Wendy's question....I loved Roger from the beginning. I don't know why, but there was something about him that was welcoming and warming. I felt that he was a little too attracted to Bree, and I didn't quite get his almost visceral attraction to her. She was quite young, and from the first descriptions, I wasn't sure she was all that pretty. Striking, maybe. Obviously Jamie's daughter; but the features that others find so beautiful on a man don't always translate onto a woman so exactly. For quite some time, I pictured Bree as ... striking, partly because she was so large and her hair was so red, but not necessarily pretty or beautiful.
Bree... I know that she was "coming of age" during DIA and even Voyager. She was still quite young, and her whole world was turned upside down by her mother's truth. I didn't dislike Bree, exactly; I understood her reticence and her conflicts of not wanting to accept Jamie as her father because that might null and void all that Frank was to her. And Jamie was still a stranger to her in DIA.
IMO, through Roger's eyes, Bree was able to see and accept her mother's secret and the truth. After witnessing Gillian/Geillie's "trip" to the past through the stones, Bree could no longer completely ignore or pass off the story. I think she started to see her mother's love for this man, Jamie. And it intrigued her enough to put her back into her "historical research" mode, trying to find Jamie. Her hunger and excitement to find him was driven as much by her need to know and try to understand this man who was really her father as much as her want to please her mother. Somewhere in all of that, I started to like Bree for herself, and not just because she was Jamie's daughter. She will never be one of my most favorite characters, because there's just something about her that tends to rub me the wrong way. Perhaps she seems a bit too much like Jenny to me at times; as much as I love Jenny, she can really irritate me, especially when she thinks that she can "manage" everyone around her into what she thinks is best. Bree has some of that. But Bree also finds a strength within her that serves her well throughout the rest of the story (past Voyager).
The moment when Margaret Campbell "channels" Bree at that creepy fire voodoo thing gives me chills every time. But it's also such a sweet moment! The way she talks to Jamie and calls him "Daddy", and tells him to protect Claire. Very memorable, and so Bree. She's such a contrast of softness and hardness. And she's definitely her own woman - not her mother and not her father.
For me, Bree became clearer after Voyager. Although her helping her mother prepare was priceless, as was their goodbye.
I struggle with Bree's and Roger's relationship. She seems too prickly, and yet, I can see why. Bree is concerned about not making the same mistake she thinks her mother made: making a promise to Frank and then breaking it when she met the true love of her life, Jamie. I guess I just related to and liked Roger so much from the beginning, that sometimes I tend to think that Bree isn't good enough for him - LOL! And that, for me, continued past Voyager.
Lori wrote: "For quite some time, I pictured Bree as ... striking, partly because she was so large and her hair was so red, but not necessarily pretty or beautiful."That is exactly how Roger describes her in the book.
I, also liked Roger from the very start, possibly due to his easy-going manner. He's sweet. Bree took me a bit longer to like but I think that started to change when she first tasted whisky in DIA and made what I call "the Bree face", scrunched up, which I do (and my daughter) when tasting strong Scotch whisky LOL. I think why I didn't like Bree so much at the beginning was because of her harsh reaction to finding out about Jamie being her father. Even though it was perfectly understandable, I felt protective of Claire's feelings because I've become so attached to her. But in Voyager, we see Bree come around in some wonderful heart touching scenes like the ones Lori mentioned, including that creepy voodoo one.I loved how Bree got excited in the research of finding Jamie and discovered the legend of the Dunbonnet and guessed that it was Jamie. She's the one to convince Claire and Roger that it was him. Roger told her "good job" and I believe that was the first time Bree referred to Jamie as "my father"...ahhhhh!!
Roger and Bree as a couple - Roger was trying to picture how Jamie must've looked by looking at Bree - the striking height and the Viking red hair along with the "same sheer physical presence". Roger had thought that Bree had it in spades - that she didn't have to do or say anything to attract attention, she just drew people to her, like a magnet. And it drew him. I doubt that Roger could say exactly what it is about Bree that draws him to her, she just does. I think they compliment each other. Roger's easy-going personality smooths Bree's rough edges while Bree adds the fire and passion.
I love Roger and Bree as a couple. They take this Historical Romance and definately add a bit of modernization to the storyline. Bree is a typical 20 year old girl with an atypical life as is Roger. They are very different from others around but find much likeness within each other. Their personalities are very different but very complimenting in the same. Bree is strong headed, and stubborn, while Roger is very passive and giving. Through Bree and Roger we get to experience the everyday problems facing young couples. The doubt, the jealously, the fear the anguish, the expectation, it is all there. Although we first meet Jamie and Claire in their 20's there were so many other events going on around them that we weren't really given an opportunity to see them struggle with a lot of the basic problems that young couple face, in past and/or present times. However through Roger and Bree we can see them more clearly.
They say that opposites attract and it couldn't have been more true than Roger and Bree. I think from the beginning, there was this "chemistry" between them and it just blossomed over time.Roger is Bree's sounding board. He's understands her outbursts most of the time and most likely attributes it to her 20th century upbringing. She's very headstrong (gee, I wonder where she gets that from?!) and while Jamie may not understand all of it, Roger does, which gives him an advantage over Jamie.
They both adapted well (somewhat) to the 18th century way of living, but deep down inside I think they missed not only the conveniences of the 20th century, but the way people thought. Most people in the 18th century saw things in black and white. In the 20th century, and beyond, I think they see things more in the gray area, a place where compromise takes place.
Bree saw both sides of a marriage. One that didn't really work and one that worked. She was scared she'd end up like Claire and Frank and didn't want any part of that. Marriage of "convenience" was not for her. She wanted the whole magilla and with Roger's understanding and love she achieved it, albeit with some ups and downs.
The best thing that happened to Bree was Roger.
I have always liked Bree. I appreciate that she is interested in doing all kinds of things in her free time. She is always looking for ways to improve and fix things. This also why I dislike her a little in the later books. She is always trying to bring the future into the past instead of just living like other people.Rodger has always impressed me as a good guy. Because I am a Librarian appreciate his research skills and the satisfaction he gets from finding each little bit. I love how he seems to be able to talk to any age group and slip through sticky situations. I bet he learned this skill from the Reverend because my husband is also a pastor's kid and he has this same skill.
Okay, I am new but I've always wondered and never saw this point addressed: Could have marriage with Frank been affected by his resemblance to Black Jack Randall and Claire's deep hatred for BJR.
I've wondered that also, Denise. How could she not think of BJR when she gazed at Frank and keep from shuddering?
I would feel like it would definitely not help! I mean, she had the impulse to trust BJR when she would think about how much he looked like Frank. I would then imagine that the opposite was true, it would be easy to see Frank as a villain because he looks like BJR.
I like how Roger and Bree are intellectual matches as well. She is an intelligent girl with the Fraser stubborness, and her mother's willingness to follow her passion (as in her future career choice). I think it was intellectual curiosity that fired her initial investigations into the history of Jamie. She was solving a puzzle first, connecting to her father secondRoger is a romantic character with his kilt, accent, and guitar, but he is an Oxford professor, too: smart, focused, analytical. However. Roger MUST learn to hold back his kisses toward other men's wives. This is just a ridiculous character flaw! You just know it's going to cause trouble.
I have also thought many times about how freaky it would have been for Claire with Frank/BJR. I wonder if she called him the wrong name, or swore at him in her dreams?
I think that Claire was able to separate Frank from BJR, especially after her encounters with him - when she'd start to treat him as she would Frank, and then realize he wasn't.But I can see her being hesitant towards Frank: 1. Maybe a shock at seeing BJR when she saw Frank - maybe upon waking or when she wasn't expecting him to be there or during an argument. 2. Because BJR was part of his ancestry, she might have looked for his traits in Frank. Then again, his actual ancestor, Alex, was a wonderful guy, so it's almost black-and-white.
Wonder if DG will expound on whether Claire ever confused Frank with BJR or what effect it all had on her when she was "back to the present"?
The reunion! I've heard mixed feelings on this moment in Voyager. Some were disappointed that it wasn't as passionate as it could of been, and others thought it was absolutely perfect. Where do you fall and why?
Lori wrote: "Then again, his actual ancestor, Alex, was a wonderful guy, so it's almost black-and-white."
In Dragonfly in Amber when Jamie and Claire met Alex at the palace they were both sure that it was Jack. I think that the strong resemblance between the brothers would have made it easier for her not to see Frank as a villain. She spent quite a bit of time helping Alex.
She also dealt with Jack at that same time as he passed information about the English army to her in payment for helping Alex. I think this period of time gave her a chance to see Jack as more than just an evil man. He did after all love his brother, join in matrimony with Mary and promise to care for her and the child.
Great question Denise!
Wendy F wrote: "The reunion! I've heard mixed feelings on this moment in Voyager. Some were disappointed that it wasn't as passionate as it could of been, and others thought it was absolutely perfect. Where do ..."I loved it! I was laughing and crying... absolutely on the edge of my seat all the way through their going to the brothel. I loved how he fainted... how he spilled the ink and had to pull off his pants... how tender and almost afraid of one another they were. I loved the scene with Jamie and the pictures of Bree. I loved how he challenged her with "can you love me for the man I am now?" without answering all her questions.
I loved it.
I really can't think of a better way than the way it was written.
I loved it too, I thought it was perfect. I do remember we had some members who were disappointed. They didn't think that it was... passionate enough or something.
I agree, and I think the realism of the emotion is what sets this book apart from average Historical Romances.
This was absolutely perfect. "can you love me for the man I am now?" I loved this whole scene and I have it booked marked on my kndle. It's wonderful and it makes me happy.
The reunion scene and well, the entire book, was perfection. I loved how Jamie fainted and couldn't believe Claire was real, that he thought he was dreaming again, because she came to him so often in his dreams. I loved how they clutched at each other and didn't want to let go. I loved how awkward they felt after being apart for 20 years and how DG painted their reunion in realistic colors. Because after being separated for that long, you're bound to be insecure about how you look to your loved one. Also, if the other had moved on and loved somebody else, or not. It took some time for Jamie and Claire to regain that closeness they shared 20 years earlier - to gain that trust. Oh man! There is never a dull moment between those two :D
Sorry I'm late guys. Though conversation has been slow? Do we still have people taking part in the reread?
I'm still in and have started the Voyager challenge :) Perhaps things might slow a bit on the boards with the end of school, start of summer vacations and all activities?
Perhaps! Okay, new topic question...Loaghaire! Everyones favorite character! We find out some pretty shocking news about Jamie and Loaghaire in Voyager. What did you think about everyone's reactions. Did you think Claire over reacted? Did you understand why Jamie made the choices he made? What about Loaghaire herself, or Jenny?
it might get my butt beat, but I do think Claire over-reacted - but at the same time, I can see why she did...its kind of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other...I think she had more of a reaction that Jamie, because he assumed that she was going to go back to Frank
I think she over-reacted too. He should have told her the truth right away, and I can understand why she was mad that she found out the way she did. But really? I mean, that was a tad bit of overkill. I suppose I feel that way, though, because I could understand why Jamie was afraid to tell her too. He should have, absolutely, but he was afraid he'd lose her again.
i guess I just expected her to be more mature about it, i mean heck she was a woman in her late 40's...did she really expect that he hadn't moved on in 20 years...or was she just being a hypocritical bitch, since she had had frank for most of those 20 years (even if their relationship sucked)
Exactly! And granted I understand that it's sensitive because it's Loaghaire, but still.
do you think her reaction would have been different if it was someone other than Laoghaire would her reaction have been different?
Yeah, I do. I think if she had come back and found he'd married Mary, or some random woman, she wouldn't have been quite so angry. Still hurt that he lied, but I don't think it would have been as violent as it was. I mean, Loaghaire tried to kill her.
Claire's overreaction was due to how she found out, the timing (how rude!), the who (UGH, Loaghaire! Claire's arch enemy) married to Jamie!!!, her insecurity with Jamie after being separated for 20 years and being older and not as attractive (in her eyes perhaps)...so many emotions swirling, oh, and hormones. I agree, if it hadn't been Loaghaire but anybody else, it wouldn't have been so bad.I felt it was unfair of Claire to had expected Jamie to remain single and not gone on with his life during her absence. How was he to know that she'd ever return, thinking him dead? I wonder, did Jamie ever think that Claire might discover thru historical documents that he survived Culloden? I can't remember if DG addressed that.
I don't think she did. It's a good question though. I honestly think that Jamie doesn't think much about what Claire would discover because to him it's just now happening.
Did Claire over-react? Hmmm... well, let me just say that I had a bad feeling all along my 1st read through. And when the EVENT happened, I was pretty much right there with Claire, UNTIL she & Jamie were fighting so hard and so desperately that Jennie poured a bucket of water on them both. In later reads, my thoughts were more like Lisa's - the way that Claire found out, thinking that Jamie had fathered at least one other daughter (and with Leoghaire!)... Claire had been afraid all along that Jamie had another woman in his life; the very last person she expected it to ever be would be Leoghaire! It felt like a double betrayal - Jamie didn't tell her he was married, and then he was married to the very woman who tried to have her burned as a witch! (Of course, Claire forgot she hadn't told him this.)
I was really angry with Jamie the first read. I knew something was up, and I suspected there was another woman somehow. But I honestly expected it was likely Mary McNab, too - wasn't there something about Mary's behavior towards Jamie? It was rather shocking that of all women, it was Leoghaire. But once we got the real story, I understood it better. Jamie needed to be needed. Leoghaire needed a man. And Leoghaire was someone from the time when Jamie and Claire were together; in some weird way, I think that was comforting to Jamie - reminded him of the early days of their marriage at Castle Leoch. Jamie had some affection for the girl back then, and he's got such a tender heart.
JENNY - I was furious with her. That, too, seemed like a betrayal, but of both Jamie and Claire. Jenny just always thinks she knows what's best for everyone, especially Jamie. And IMO, she thought she was doing them all a favor, because it was obvious Jamie was going to take his sweet time telling Claire. Jenny was afraid to lose Jamie, and probably angry at Claire for leaving Jamie - for no word from her - for all those years.
Leoghaire? I know I should feel sorry for her, but I just can't. Her own insecurities prevented her from having a real, loving relationship with Jamie. I felt like she didn't even try. I'm sure she had a lot to get past with experiences from her first 2 husbands - it seemed as though she either had really bad sexual experiences or was just really afraid of childbirth. Leoghaire always felt the ghost of Claire - she could never get past that bitterness, that envy, the thoughts that Claire took Jamie from her. She couldn't trust Jamie or give her heart to him; how did she expect him to give any more than he did?
Of course, had Leoghaire and Jamie ever had found a way to have a good relationship, that would have made Claire's return that much more complicated.
DG did such a brilliant job of leading up to that moment - that reveal - that I was pretty much on Claire's wavelength. And so when Claire calmed down and realized that she'd had time to prepare for this reunion and Jamie hadn't... well, I think that put things into better perspective for her. And in their fight, DG said that both of them took out their bitterness and misery on one another - Jamie on Claire for being with Frank all those years, and Claire on Jamie for being married to Leoghaire.
Had it been anyone other than L Jamie married, I think that Claire would still have had a violent reaction, but not nearly as big or as volatile as knowing it was Leoghaire.
That's my two cents, anyway.
I was more furious with Jenny. I mean, why would she do it like that? Why couldn't she take Jamie aside and tell him that he should tell Claire? Jenny was way out of line this time! She didn't know why Jamie didn't live wiht Leohaire (or maybe she did). It still didn't give her the right to butt in the way she did. I think deep down she was mad at Claire for leaving Jamie in the first place. Maybe she was hoping that Claire would leave for good.I was mad at Jamie,too. I know he was afraid that Claire would leave him again, but he didn't give her the chance. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there.
Did Claire over-react? Maybe, just a tad. But given the circumstances, I'd probably react the same way. Maybe not so violent, but angry just the same.
I'm not saying Jamie made the right choice, just that I could understand the fear and how easy it would be to give into it. And at the same time how you'd know it was all just going to blow up in your face. I think DG did a good job with how human that was.
Lisa wrote: "Claire's overreaction was due to how she found out, the timing (how rude!), the who (UGH, Loaghaire! Claire's arch enemy) married to Jamie!!!, her insecurity with Jamie after being separated for 20..."I don't think Claire expected Jamie to be single, I read it as she was afraid that he was with someone else. And when he didn't tell her that he was with another women she was relieved. Although he never did tell her yes or no his actions told her he was free. (In Claire's eyes) So Claire's reaction, maybe over-reaction, to Jamie was well deserved. Especially to who he was married too!
I agree with everything you said, except that Jamie wasn't honest with Loaghaire. I think he was always honest with her about Claire. It was part of the reason she hated Claire so much, she said she knew that he always loved and missed her.
I used to like Jenny, before Voyager and how she meddled in Jamie's life. Because of her, Jamie was pushed into marrying Laoghaire. Then, because of Jenny, Claire found out about it. And then! she encouraged Claire to leave! Uggghhhh!! Sure, I know, Jenny was all about helping Jamie because she loves him so much but geez. She seems so controlling to me, doing what SHE thinks is best for everybody, like Lori mentioned and I agree. Because of that, Jenny is not my fav character.As for Laoghaire, I never did like her - manipulative little witch :D and agree with everything Lori said about her. She seems to make life miserable for everyone around her, to be as miserable as herself. I'm glad her daughter, Marsali got away and left with Fergus. One of my fav scenes was when Marsali asked Claire about sex because of her preconceived ideas due to what she saw at home.
Lisa wrote: "I used to like Jenny, before Voyager and how she meddled in Jamie's life. Because of her, Jamie was pushed into marrying Laoghaire. Then, because of Jenny, Claire found out about it. And then! she ..."I totally agree with everything you said! I hope Jenny redeems herself n the end.
Me too, Diane. It's only because Jenny loves her brother so much and his love for her, that I'm hoping for redemption. I do love her feisty spirit, just not the controlling part.
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