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My Name Is Red
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My Name is Red (May'12 Group Read)
the first time a book which i suggested has won the polls and i will be off the hook for 10 days..damn..someone please keep things rolling till i come back from my tour on 11th june..i will try to finish the book before i land in bangalore...
I am in!I have found the book for half the price and so I bought it remembering that it won the poll!
I have already read 20 pages and I like it so far but I want to start it again.
Guys...this is one book which sheds a lot of light on the social mores of the Islamic society in Turkey in the middle ages....what surprises me is the degree of self determination allowed to the females. Shekure had an amazing control of her own destiny...which makes one think about the current interpretation of Islam. Also something which I found really amazing was the interpretation of world in the eyes of the miniaturists. Awesome read.
@Rajat, I'm really intrigued now. Just the kind of book I have been enjoying lately. Thank-you all for the wonderful introduction.
Rosun wrote: "@Rajat, I'm really intrigued now. Just the kind of book I have been enjoying lately. Thank-you all for the wonderful introduction."uw Rosun...looking forward to ur take on this book
Rajat wrote: "Guys...this is one book which sheds a lot of light on the social mores of the Islamic society in Turkey in the middle ages....what surprises me is the degree of self determination allowed to the fe..."This is still a work from present era, but works of that period like Alif Laila, Shahnameh, Rubbiyyat, other Omar Khayyam, Rumi works and many other creative things on painting, music, poetry, architecture, indicates astounding liberalism in social norms, that is when Europe and rest of Asia were still in Dark ages I guess. I believe it is to do with the influence of Sufism, which has now become weak against other autocratic religious thoughts.
I have re-read the first 30/40 pages in order to understand better. It is not difficult to understand but seen that every chapter is told by a different character at a first read I couldn't understand who was who and so I preferred to start again in order to get this way of writing.I needed also a little bit time to understand that I am an "unfaithful" :/ In the book, when the characters talk about the Western, these are called "unfaithful" and at the beginning I couldn't understand to whom it was referred and about whom they were talking!
Mod
I have read the first 80 pages (finished chapter 13).At the beginning I liked that each character was telling a chapter of this story but now I am finding it boring. In this way the story is not flowing, it seems written jerkily.
Also, I am getting irritating with all the details of the miniatures. Too long descriptions (about things I don't care) for my tastes.
dely wrote: "I have read the first 80 pages (finished chapter 13).At the beginning I liked that each character was telling a chapter of this story but now I am finding it boring. In this way the story is not ..."
There is even a chapter narrated by, I guess, a leaf which is part of a painting :)
Ok, got the book. When do we start discussing this? :)
Aravind wrote: "There is even a chapter narrated by, I guess, a leaf which is part of a painting :) "Till now I have found the chapter narrated by a tree. But it was nice, I liked it. The problem is that I would like if the whole book would be narrated by the same character; or there should be a main character who talks and sometimes a chapter narrated by someone else. But if the book will be in this way till the end I will get crazy! :D
dely wrote: "Aravind wrote: "There is even a chapter narrated by, I guess, a leaf which is part of a painting :) "Till now I have found the chapter narrated by a tree. But it was nice, I liked it. The problem..."
yeah, it was tree not leaf. The line "I don't want to be a tree, I want to be its meaning" is from that chapter I guess.
Regarding the narrative, that was so unique. If the narrator is a single person this novel may not have worked out that well. A single person narrative cannot dwell into the mind of another character. A single narrator can tell about another character's behaviour and other external things. If he tries to tell something from another person's mind that is a cliche, otherwise that narrative may have to be taken merely as an interpretation or assumption which often lead to ambiguity.
In this narrative, each narrators seem equally important and have a voice and story to tell.
Aravind wrote: "yeah, it was tree not leaf. The line "I don't want to be a tree, I want to be its meaning" is from that chapter I guess. Yes, it is from this chapter.
Regarding the narrative, that was so unique. If the narrator is a single person this novel may not have worked out that well. A single person narrative cannot dwell into the mind of another character. A single narrator can tell about another character's behaviour and other external things. If he tries to tell something from another person's mind that is a cliche, otherwise that narrative may have to be taken merely as an interpretation or assumption which often lead to ambiguity.
In this narrative, each narrators seem equally important and have a voice and story to tell."
I know, it is unique and it is because of this that I liked it at the beginning; but going on with the reading I am not liking it anymore. I am finding it boring and irritating, don't know why; perhaps because the story goes from one point of view to the other, from one piece of the story to another and it isn't linear. Perhaps I will like it again at the end because I will see the interweaving of the story.
Or perhaps it's only because I am not in the mood of reading in these days :(
Mod
I haven't read this book closely enough to be able to comment, but the multiple narrator device, isn't exactly new. Around ninety years ago, Akutagawa used pretty much the same thing in his story, 'In the Grove', made famous later by the legendary Kurosawa film it inspired. The narratives included, the narration from a corpse. Pamuk generally comes well recommended so I hope there's more to his book, than just this drawn-out gimmick. If there is, I might pick it up else I've had about enough of postmodernism this year. So, I'm waiting to hear more opinions.
I liked the multiple narrative. I agree with Aravind, the multiple narrative with overlapping incidents gives us multiple views on the same scene. This is the first book I am reading that has so many characters narrating.
Also, Orhan's writing is pretty nice. The concept of the characters directly telling the story to us, the readers, go well for me.
Mod
Multiple narratives are very effective to keep the characters in gray than pure good or evil. All of us have a good point to do an act. Whether it is good or bad in the eyes of others is completely irrelevant. A complete dark character is only possible in fiction in my opinion.
What do you guys think? Have you ever met a person who is in complete dark in the way most of the fictions describe the villains?
Mod
Rajat wrote: "Guys...this is one book which sheds a lot of light on the social mores of the Islamic society in Turkey in the middle ages....what surprises me is the degree of self determination allowed to the fe..."But I don't know how accurate these descriptions are.. I am not sure if it gives an authentic view as Pamuk is a contemporary author.
Aravind wrote: "Rajat wrote: "Guys...this is one book which sheds a lot of light on the social mores of the Islamic society in Turkey in the middle ages....what surprises me is the degree of self determination all..."In many characters of those books,I don't find the aspects of practising muslims. eg:- adultery and alcohol are forbidden in Islam,which appear quite regularly in some of those books.
According to Wiki "The secularization of Turkey started in the society during the last years of Ottoman Empire and it was the most prominent and most controversial feature of Atatürk's reforms. Under his leadership, the caliphate—the supreme politico-religious office of Islam, and symbol of the sultan's claim to world leadership of all Muslims—was abolished. The secular power of the religious authorities and functionaries was reduced and eventually eliminated. The religious foundations were nationalized, and religious education was restricted and for a time prohibited. The influential and popular mystical orders of the dervish brotherhoods (Tariqa) also were suppressed."
May be this book is set in that time.
Sherin wrote: "But I don't know how accurate these descriptions are.. I am not sure if it gives an authentic view as Pamuk is a contemporary author...."I guess most of the backward thinking like not-giving enough rights to women was a western thing that was bought by asians and middle easts at the later stages. Most of the ancient writings from Asia indicates equal rights to both genders.
Only thing is these guys implemented it so well that even after most of the western cultures came out of it, these guys have not.
Agree that Orhan may not be so accurate. But I think he would have definitely have some references before setting the characters.
Of course,he'd have!All I was saying was taht we can't consider it as an authentic take on taht era..
Sherin wrote: "Aravind wrote: "Rajat wrote: "Guys...this is one book which sheds a lot of light on the social mores of the Islamic society in Turkey in the middle ages....what surprises me is the degree of self d..."Yeah. I guess a society's liberalism can be measured by looking at the popular culture of that era, mainly in literature and art. Most of the stories of 1000 nights were of common people and yeah, though it doesn't necessarly have to be the way of life, these books were not banned, and have survived through centuries. As you have quoted, the Persian/Turkish monarchs may have held power above the religious leaders.
Sherin wrote: "Of course,he'd have!All I was saying was taht we can't consider it as an authentic take on taht era.."
True. I think the fiction genre gives the freedom of changing some of the facts to suit the story flow. While the fiction may not be taken as an authentic one, for some people - like me - who doesn't know much about the 16th century middle east, they could be a starter. :)..
Mod
Mod
I've read this book sometime back and it is one of my favourite books of all time. This book has used multiple literary techniques, some old some new.
Multiple narratives is the one that is striking and hence can be compared. But not just the narratives of the story, the characters reveal themselves as you go ahead. They tell you the beliefs, their doubts, their hatreds and gives you a sweet mystery of who dunnit! :D
The Islamic references on art are the multiple schools of thought that are currently prevailing in Islamic nations. Overlapping perspectives and the conflicts leads an uninformed reader to be hte judge of which is right while the 2 ppl make their case. I found this really interesting.
I found it similar in State of Fear by Crichton in whihc he presents the 2 sides of Global warming.
Any other book which presents conflict between multiple schools of thought?
Mod
Mod
Mod
I've read this book sometime back and it is one of my favourite books of all time. This book has used multiple literary techniques, some old some new.
Multiple narratives is the one that ..."
As I Lay Dying
Smitha wrote: "is the theme harboring upon a clash between the various islamic sects and thoughts? those who totally ban idols and pictures and those who are a bit more lenient, so on and so forth?"Not really. It is about aesthetics of art. Of how some people consider art with more divinity. Isn't it something like King asks the painters to make a picture for him which some some people doesn't like. The killer consider that as western influence.
Turkish carpet makers always leave some interesting bloopers in their carpet. Like, a horse with 5 legs or a leaf blue in colour etc, because they believe perfect art should only be for godly purpose. (This info I got from some other source)
Aravind wrote: "Turkish carpet makers always leave some interesting bloopers in their carpet. Like, a horse with 5 legs or a leaf blue in colour etc, because they believe perfect art should only be for godly purpose...."Even in India, we have the same belief. The sculptures and all the other things will always have some minute defect that was intentionally done as people believed the perfect one is for the God or a perfect sculpture is more dangerous or something like that.
Smitha wrote: "the character names (all the Elendis and Effendis ) are very confusing though."Yes, true. Only for curiosity, how are the names in English? I have the corpse who is Raffinato Effendi and then Olive (Oliva), Stork (Cicogna) and Butterfly (Farfalla). These are the easiest but with the Turkish names I have some problems to remember them all, they are all so similar to each other.
Very interesting your messages about the believes in art though for me it is really annoying to read in the book all the details about Turkish art from the past. I had never heard about it and it is not a topic that interests me.
I am stuck with the reading. First because it is not an easy moment for me, I am very busy and so I have less time to read; but also because I don't like a lot this book and so I don't pick it up as soon as I have a little bit time.
"Any other book which presents conflict between multiple schools of thought?"Several. 'Five Little Pigs' (1942, Agatha Christie) and 'Raat Bhore Brishti' (1967, Buddhadeva Bose) for example, to name a few of my favorites. Am sure others here can point out other titles that make use of this very literary device.
Actually I'm at a loss to understand why multiple POVs would be used at all, if not to bring in internal conflict within the novel's paradigm, build a layer and an artificial plot driver and get readers out of their alpha state, etc. etc.
What is POV? The multiple narration?
Kunal wrote: "point of view"You mean the points of view of the characters with the multiple narration?
If it is so, I agree with you (though I don't know who the reader with the alpha state is!). It is confusing and not at all interesting, at least for me. Perhaps the author wanted to keep the reader's attention but it doesn't work with me. I am not at all curious to know who the murder is and I am not focused on the plot; I easily lose concentration.
For who is reading the book: don't you think the book is full of homosexuality and pedophilia? Men who fall in love with kids; men who abuse of other men... :/
Aravind wrote: "Smitha wrote: "is the theme harboring upon a clash between the various islamic sects and thoughts? those who totally ban idols and pictures and those who are a bit more lenient, so on and so forth?..."Islam doesn't really promote pictures and sculptures of people, to dissuade idol worship.
The concept is if there's a picture/idol of a holy/mighty person, people tend to worship it in some way in later years.
eg:- Prophet Mohamed(pbuh) is considered as the 'messenger of God' and not as God in Islam.
But if there was a picture/portrait of him available now,some people would have certainly wanted to worship it,which is against the monotheistic view of the religion.
So,orthodox muslims wouldn't want to create sculptures of Kings because in certain cases,power-intoxicated Kings tend to declare themselves as God and such.
Mod
You mean the points of view of the characters with the multiple narration?
If it is so, I agree with you (though I don't know who the reader with the alpha state is!)...."
Haha.. this is exactly what this discussion is turning out to be.. Same topic discussed by ppl with different POV :D
Mod
Several. 'Five Little Pigs' (1942, Agatha Christie) and 'Raat Bhore Brishti' (1967, Buddhadeva Bose) for example, to n..."
I haven't read these books. Will have to take a look. Although a far shot - Reluctant Fundamentalist by Mohsin Ahmed gives the ideological differences.
@Sherin - Nice gist! that is something that the book talks in detail about - narrated by believers.
Girish wrote: "Kunal wrote: ""Any other book which presents conflict between multiple schools of thought?"Several. 'Five Little Pigs' (1942, Agatha Christie) and 'Raat Bhore Brishti' (1967, Buddhadeva Bose) for..."
'Name of the Rose' has conflicts and debates on various Christian school of thoughts of middle ages.
I give it up.After reading chapter 26 (with big dicks and nipples) I have enough of this book; I don't like vulgarities.
I can't stand the characters (above all Sekure) and I don't want to lose time reading a book I don't like. I am sorry.
I will continue to follow the discussion so I will know who the murder is and why (though I am not very curious).
Mod
I too wasn't crazy about it ,Dely.I finished the boook,though :)
It was goood in certain parts.
Smitha wrote: "Poor dely, LOL! I am on page 100 and its not as exciting as I imagined first, but still I am plodding on as I have not found it too boring either."When you will read chapter 26 you must absolutely let me know what you think about it! :D
@Sherin: I don't want to continue this torture :/ Perhaps one day I will finish it; I left the bookmark inside the book so I know where to continue.
Hehe.. If you don't find one book appealing,you can of course close it and move on to another.Why waste precious time ?! :)My motivation was mainly the murder mystery ;)
Dely- Your comment about the content made me laugh!, but I understand what you mean about vulgarities in reading sometimes especially when you think they do not need to be there!:0(.I have just started the book briefly this morning.
All your comments are now making me think it may not be as good as I thought it would be, just like Smitha has mentioned.
Its fine so far but I am not that far in to it yet!.
I'll keep looking and posting on here! :0)
There are some people who loved the book,Furny.It depends on personal taste,that's all.
Indian Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
As I Lay Dying (other topics)My Name Is Red (other topics)
Let's discuss the middle east viewed from Orhan Pamuk's pen and also his writing style as I am sure for most of us this would be the first book of him that we read..
Vinoth, looks like you got the knack of winning the polls from Sherin (though you couldn't successfully do that with 'the God of small things'), the stage is set for yet another group read to be lead by you..
Happy reading guys.. Hope the book would meet our expectations.. :)