Books & Discussion on the Holocaust Showing 301-350 of 1,027

[Colin]

I know Die Zeit well.

[Lilo]

Colin wrote: "I know Die Zeit well."

What do you think of this article in Die Zeit? What do you think of this exhibit? And what do you think of the success of this book "Er ist wieder da" and, especially, of the 1,200+ great reviews of this book on Amazon.de?

[Lilo]

Re the exhibit "Fascination and Terror": I would like to share what one of my GR friends said in an e-mail to me, yesterday. He wrote:

"I would call it Deceit, Hate, and Terror. And those are nice words to describe it."

[Colin]

Lilo wrote: "Colin wrote: "I know Die Zeit well."

What do you think of this article in Die Zeit? What do you think of this exhibit? And what do you think of the success of this book "Er ist wieder da" and, esp..."

I think the exhibit is important, the article was well done in my opinion. To their credit, the Germans have come to terms with the crimes of the Third Reich, more so than most nations, such as japan (their crimes were just as horrific), and Russia (which does not even mention their genocide programs).

[Lilo]

@ Colin

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I do NOT have the impression that the Germans have come to terms with the crimes of the Third Reich. I rather have the impression that they have swept these horrific crimes under the carpet. They did this by not teaching about the Third Reich in schools. They did this by not displaying related books in bookstores. And they did this by treating the whole era and especially the Holocaust as a conversation tabu. The only time I heard the topic mentioned was when someone made a derogatory remark about Germany having to pay reparations to Israel.

I don't quite understand what you say about the exhibit. Are you saying that the exhibit was well done? I certainly would not agree on that.

I agree that the newspaper article in ZEIT ONLINE was well done. But this did not relate to the exhibit.

I do not know how the Japanese have come to terms with their war crimes. (I am not knowledgeable on this issue.) And you cannot really compare the Russians. Surely, they, too, have committed horrible crimes. But let's not forget: They were attacked by Hitler, and it was Hitler's goal to starve 70 mio of them, apart from those who were killed by direct warfare.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

As an outsider I think Germany have done more than many other nations to acept their guilt over the actions of their state during the war. Much more than countries like Japan or Russia (against people within it's empire) have to date. But not being a German or living in that country I cannot comment on what they think.

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "As an outsider I think Germany have done more than many other nations to acept their guilt over the actions of their state during the war. Much more than countries like Japan or Russia (against peo..."

I think you're right, AR. I have lived in Russia and Japan. In both countries they do nothing but try to sweep the unsavory aspects of their pasts under the rug.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Hi Manray9, I have an issue that every year in Australia during August sections of my country wants us to apologise to Japan for the atomic bomb being used. I can understand some parts of their argument but I don't see Japan apologising to China, America, Britain, Holland, Australia, Singapore, etc for the actions of their nation during WW2. And I have issues with the history they teach in their schools on WW2 but I suppose that happens in various degrees in all countries including my own when it comes to certain aspects of our history.

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Manray9, I have an issue that every year in Australia during August sections of my country wants us to apologise to Japan for the atomic bomb being used. I can understand some parts of their arg..."

We have the same here regarding the atomic bombings. We have nothing to apologize for. We didn't start it. We weren't engaged in a national policy of imperialist aggression. It was war and it was ugly. People died and not necessarily those who deserved it. The Japanese have many sins to atone for.

[Robert]

Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Manray9, I have an issue that every year in Australia during August sections of my country wants us to apologise to Japan for the atomic bomb being used. I can understand s..."

A Chinese friend told me that the Japanese might have faced little resistance in much of China (where there was little nationalism) in the 1930s had they not been so unspeakably cruel. So far as I know, Japan has never allowed publication of books like "The Rape of Nanking" in their country.

[Lilo]

@ Manray9:

Believe you me, as long as I have full-time or part-time lived in Germany (that is, until 2006), Germany has also done "nothing but try to sweep the unsavory aspects of their pasts under the rug".

I don't know what happened after 2006, but from what I heard second-hand, I have no reason to believe that much has changed since. (I think they have to teach about the Holocaust in schools now. But I'll bet that will be a minimum and won't give the whole picture.)

[Lilo]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "As an outsider I think Germany have done more than many other nations to acept their guilt over the actions of their state during the war. Much more than countries like Japan or Russia (against peo..."

If Germany has done more (which I haven't seen any of), then it would be only right so because Germany had started it all.

[Lilo]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Manray9, I have an issue that every year in Australia during August sections of my country wants us to apologise to Japan for the atomic bomb being used. I can understand some parts of their arg..."

I don't think that any of the allies have any reason to apologize for the atomic bombs. In my opinion, they have shortened the war. And again, the Allies didn't start the war.

Besides, what does apologizing help even when there is a reason to apologize? Where there IS a reason, I would rather see deeds than words.

Apologizing for crimes reminds me of a sentence in the ancient classic German etiquette book, written by Freiherr von Knigge. There it says: "Wenn ein Herr einer Dame mit seiner Schirmspitze ein Auge ausstoesst, hat er sich zu entschuldigen." ("If a gentleman kicks out an eye of a lady with the tip of his umbrella, he has to apologize.") Doesn't this sound ridiculous?

[Lewis]

My wife and I visited the Nazi Documentation Center in Nuremberg on June 28, 2012. We walked through the exhibit called “Fascination and Terror” and each of us concluded the exhibit was a glorification of the rise and accomplishments of Adolf Hitler, presented without clarifying comment or criticism. We were appalled.

I am trying to get attention paid to this exhibit in Germany, to see if other visitors share our impression and to stimulate changing the exhibit.

See my letter to ZEIT at http://lewweinsteinauthorblog.com/201...

If any of you have seen this exhibit, I would appreciate your comments.

[Lewis]

Jim wrote: "Lilo wrote: "There is an exhibit, titled "Fascination and Terror" in Nuremberg. My GR friend Lewis Weinstein has visited this exhibit with his wife, in 2012. Both Weinsteins were shocked. This exhi..."

I have written to ZEIT and there is some possibility they will do a story on the exhibit. See ... http://lewweinsteinauthorblog.com/201...

[Lewis]

Lilo wrote: "Jim wrote: "Lilo wrote: "There is an exhibit, titled "Fascination and Terror" in Nuremberg. My GR friend Lewis Weinstein has visited this exhibit with his wife, in 2012. Both Weinsteins were shocke..."

Great analysis.

[Lewis]

Lilo wrote: "My GR friend Erwin has read the conversation between Lewis Weinstein and the museum director who hosts the exhibit "Fascination and Terror". He has written me a private message as response and has ..."

The more people who see the exhibit with open eyes the more likely it will be changed. Thank you.

[Manray9]

Lewis wrote: "Lilo wrote: "My GR friend Erwin has read the conversation between Lewis Weinstein and the museum director who hosts the exhibit "Fascination and Terror". He has written me a private message as resp..."

Agreed. I took my children to Yad Vashem in Israel just so their eyes would always be open to racism and injustice.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Robert wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Manray9, I have an issue that every year in Australia during August sections of my country wants us to apologise to Japan for the atomic bomb being used. I ..."

Robert it's an interesting projection (in terms of how history would have turned and changed) and I have read similar for the Ukraine in respect of Germany's advance into the country and its occupation.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "As an outsider I think Germany have done more than many other nations to acept their guilt over the actions of their state during the war. Much more than countries like Japan or Russia (against peo..."

I agree - although I understand Lilo's view - but having lived there in the 80s when serving in the Army and seen their approaches and actions since leaving I believe they have accepted their history and the damage done to humanity through that.
We should never forget the history of WWII - its causes, its events & happenings and the ending and aftermath - but we must also be accepting that the majority (and growing daily) of Germans are not to blame for their forefathers or their country's conduct and beliefs. Recognising this and all people accepting Germany's journey since 1945 and the things it has tried to do is as big a step in ensuring Nazism never rears its head again as is banning the swastika and neo-nazi political groups.

[Lilo]

@ Geevee:

When two different people visit (or live in) a country at different places and meet different people, they are likely to come away with quite different impressions. So I do not doubt that your personal impressions are right, Geevee.

However, the German attitude (towards this subject) I have experienced over all the years I lived in Germany (all added up, half a century) is utterly frustrating and abominable.

There is one circumstance you might also consider: Germans who befriend Americans in Germany might not be the average Germans. And Germans who randomly talk to Americans may not say the same to them as they say to other Germans.

I have heard many Americans mention that Germans are so very friendly. Let me tell you, most Germans are not. They are so very friendly when they talk to a foreigner they find interesting. And they might also tell him what he wants to hear.

Mind you, there are very nice Germans, and we have German friends that we cherish, but sadly, I am afraid that these very nice Germans are not the majority.

The majority has been sweeping all of Hitler's crimes, including the Holocaust, under the carpet for decades. I have said it many times before, and I will repeat it here again: During all my school/college life, teachers never touched the subject of the Third Reich or the Holocaust. They started 3-times with the old Greeks and stopped before WWI. My husband's teachers reached WWII, but the info about the Third Reich and the Holocaust was miniscule. I just recently heard on GR (I can't think of in what discussion but might remember again) that someone else who went to school/college in Germany had the same experience as I had. History stopped before WWI and started again with the old Greeks

Then, also, why would I never see any Third Reich or Holocast related books in bookstores? I did visit bookstores. I did visit the local library. These books must have been hidden, if they were there at all.

And there was no way to talk about the Third Reich with anyone. I only succeeded once -- once! -- to talk with someone about it. And she shared my opinion. At all other instances, people would only make derogatory remarks about Germany having to pay reparations to Israel, and if I reminded them of the Holocaust, they changed the subject, usually after one last sneering remark.

The young generations of Germans are certainly not to blame for their forefathers beliefs and actions. But I don't see them having the attitude I would like them to have, and which I would consider appropriate to have. And if you read this article in ZEIT ONLINE, the highlights of which I posted in this group a little while ago (being stationed in Germany, I suppose that you can read German), you will see evidence that anti-Semitism is rising again all over Europe. I find this rather disturbing.

And I am sure if the attitude of today's Germans were as it should be, this exhibit in Nuremberg would be different and would also have a different title.

My dear Geevee, I surely appreciate your nice attitude and forgiveness towards Germans. And I wish you were right. But I am afraid that as an American in Germany you did not get the whole picture.

Believe you me, being a German myself, I would like to say nice things about Germans in general, but I don't find myself able to.

I will defend Germans where I find it to be appropriate. Thus, I always insist that the general German population did NOT know about the mass-murder of Jews during the war. But when it comes to the attitude of the general German population after the war, I cannot possibly say something to their defense, as I find it just simply rotten.

How can you sweep 6 mio brutally murdered Jews under the carpet? This is beyond me.

And I don't want to compare with what Japan or Russia has sweeped under the carpet. One wrong doesn't make another wrong right. And as we all know, Germany had started this whole inferno.

I really wish that today's Germans, while not responsible for the crimes of their forefathers, had a different attitude.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Lilo I can't argue with your view but will offer one correction, one difference and one challenge.

The correction, I am not American but British so my connections with Germany are closer geographically and saw me live in NW Germany and W Berlin.
The difference in my views to yours is that whilst not unique either it does offer me some insight, is that many of my friends who served alongside me in the army are married to Germans and have been for many years now.
And my challenge in that I don't believe Germany has ignored the 6 million Jews as one only needs visit Belsen or the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin (and the name surely suggests this).

However, as I say this is not to argue nor to lessen your views, which are based on your experiences both as a young German and one with relations and the understanding of one's own people. It also worth me restating that what has been done cannot be undone and the deeds done under the Hitlerian regime will taint Germany always.

I also appreciate reading your views and willingness to discuss this difficult and emotive subject with people born of a different age to yourself.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Good points raised by both Lilo and Geevee and a very interesting discussions indeed. I don't think either is wrong, just a different perspective and a different point of view, both correct in their own way.

[Lilo]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Good points raised by both Lilo and Geevee and a very interesting discussions indeed. I don't think either is wrong, just a different perspective and a different point of view, both correct in thei..."

I absolutely agree with you, Rick. I can only judge from what I have experienced, seen, and read, while Geeve can only do the same from his viewpoint.

And maybe I should add that Pfaffenhofen, where I grew up and later lived, was a particular "Nazi-nest", as I learned about a year ago.

Yet I went to Gymnasium (high school and college combined) in Munich. The fact that we didn't learn a thing about this era in school/college could not have had anything to do with my Nazi-nest hometown. Since we had different teachers every year, and different teachers again for History and German classes, I assume the guidelines came from the Bavarian Ministry of Education.

[Lilo]

Geevee wrote: "Lilo I can't argue with your view but will offer one correction, one difference and one challenge.

The correction, I am not American but British so my connections with Germany are closer geograph..."

Sorry, Geevee. I forgot that you are British.

I am sure your experiences and impressions are genuine. And as I said, there are many good people in Germany. What you might want to consider: Friends and spouses of British (or Americans) are unlikely to be descendants of Nazis, and if they are, they are unlikely to cling to the views of their forefathers. So you may not have been meeting too many of the "average" Germans. Or maybe I didn't. Who knows?

About the memorials: Well, I think the German government had to do something like that in order to gain some international respect.

[Colin]

Lilo wrote: "@ Colin

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I do NOT have the impression that the Germans have come to terms with the crimes of the Third Reich. I rather have the impression that they have swept t..."

Sorry I must have been more clear, I was referring to the Die Zeit material, not the rest as I have not seen it personally. My opinion regarding the "coming to terms" with Nazism, was the banning of all images and Swastikas, hate groups and organized neo-Nazi organizations. I was not referring to the education system, as I was never a part of it. I agree on the memorials and respect factor.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

And in regards to the education system has anyone read this as it looks very interesting:
Education in Nazi Germany by Lisa Pine

[Lilo]

Thank you, Colin, for clearing this up.

I don't think that banning the swastika, banning Nazi-images, and banning neo-Nazi parties suffices as "coming to terms" with the crimes of the Third Reich. (And organized neo-Nazi groups still exist, as far as I know. They are just not allowed as parties that can take part in elections. But here I may not be up-to-date.)

Btw, I have not seen this exhibit in Nuremberg either, but the title as well as the statements of Dr. Taeubrich, the museum director, have already told me enough.

To be honest, when I first read Lewis Weinstein's letter to the editor of "DIE ZEIT", I thought that, being Jewish, Lewis might have overreacted. Yet then I read his correspondence with Dr. Taeubrich, and it was mainly Dr. Taeubrich's responses that convinced me that Lewis's take of the exhibit was right.

[Lilo]

Geevee wrote: "And in regards to the education system has anyone read this as it looks very interesting:
Education in Nazi Germany by [author:Lisa ..."

I haven't read this book. I think it would be very interesting for anybody who doesn't know about this topic. Yet, Heinz Kohler's book "My Name Was Five" also provides a lot of insight about the brainwash of children in schools during the Third Reich.

I myself am sufficiently informed. A friend of ours was a school teacher, and she was always on the verge of landing in Dachau for not following guidelines.

What I would like to find is a book about education in schools about the Third Reich, WWII, and the Holocaust AFTER the war, but I don't think there is one. And if there was one, it would probably be rather thin, as there wouldn't be much to report, unless the book reported about what was going on in the Ministries of Education to prevent teachers from teaching about this era in history classes and prevent German language teachers to discuss contemporary books written about the Third Reich, WWII, or the Holocaust. The only book that was ever mentioned in my and my husband's German classes was "The Diary of Anne Frank". Yet I don't remember any discussion about the book, and I am rather sure it wasn't a mandatory read.

[Lewis]

Lilo wrote: "Thank you, Colin, for clearing this up.

I don't think that banning the swastika, banning Nazi-images, and banning neo-Nazi parties suffices as "coming to terms" with the crimes of the Third Reich...."

Thank you. I agree that Dr. Taubrich made my case even stronger by his responses. I don't think the exhibit can be defended. It needs to be changed. But first it needs objective historians and politicians to look at it and form their own conclusions. I am hopeful that ZEIT will get that process started.

If readers of this thread have not already done so, I recommend going to ... http://lewweinsteinauthorblog.com/201... ... which in turn leads to the complete dialogue between Dr. Taubrich and me.

[Lilo]

I am presently reading a real eye-opener book. It is out-of-print and written in German. The title is "Pfaffenhofen unterm Hakenkreuz" ("Pfaffenhofen under the Swastika"). It was written by a local historian. And I have been hunting for this book for a year until my husband was finally able to obtain a used copy from the internet.

This book shows how the "Third Reich" and the barbarism of the Holocaust could happen in the 20th century, in a so-called civilized country.

I am discussing this book on Jim Snowden's GR author blog. Anyone interested in how Hitler and his henchmen were able to seize a small town (and likewise the whole nation), please go to Jim's blog "The real history of the Third Reich in the 1930s" and follow the discussion. Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I can assure you: While the marode Weimar Republic and the bad economy had been a factor, the main reasons lay elsewhere. (I had suspected this all along, and this book proves it.)

[Jim]

Lilo wrote: "I am presently reading a real eye-opener book. It is out-of-print and written in German. The title is "Pfaffenhofen unterm Hakenkreuz" ("Pfaffenhofen under the Swastika"). It was written by a local..." Lilo tells me the link she gave needs correction. Here's the proper link.

[Lewis]

I have just completed a book titled ... No Way Out: The Politics of Polish Jewry, 1935-1939

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Sounds like an interesting book Lewis:


by Emanuel Melzer

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Lewis,
Would this be on interest?
Polish-Jewish Relations During the Second World War by Emmanuel Ringelblum

[Lewis]

Geevee wrote: "Lewis,
Would this be on interest?
Polish-Jewish Relations During the Second World War by [author:Emmanuel Ring..."

Yes. Very much so. Thanks. Have you read it?

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

No...(LOL), I have far too many books on my TBR Lewis but it is a book amongst a number on this subject that I would like to explore. I find the social, behavioural and indeed mental (as in mindset/thoughts/fears) to be a fascinating area. With the research you are doing for your fictional account that'll be another too.

[Lewis]

Geevee wrote: "No...(LOL), I have far too many books on my TBR Lewis but it is a book amongst a number on this subject that I would like to explore. I find the social, behavioural and indeed mental (as in mindse..."

I am currently writing in 1931, so the book in question is quite a ways out there. ... LEW ... http://lewweinsteinauthorblog.com/

[Manray9]

Travelin wrote: "There should be a kind of risk pool of TBRs, where those books rated most important are read by those enjoying inverse magnitudes of free time. Therein everyone in the pool "reads" and adjudges boo..."

Interesting idea. I have some TBRs which have languished on the list for years. Others make a brief stop on the list and are consumed. I feel a book has to be read at the right time. I just finished

The Bantams by Sidney Allinson

which was on my shelf for ten years or so before the time seemed right to read it.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Length and depth of TBR also helps me read or sees me defer on a book as I have added many at different times following a read on a specific subject, discussion or recommendation but the biggest problem for me is that within my TBR I have many, many books I own but the pesky library just keeps making me reserve and borrow books too...

[A.L.]

Geevee wrote: "within my TBR I have many, many books I own but the pesky library just keeps making me reserve and borrow books too... "

pesky library. imagine, making you check out all those books and then expecting you to read and return them within a deadline.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Terrible people A.L., terrible people!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

No morals at all eh Geevee!

[Robert]

Geevee wrote: "Length and depth of TBR also helps me read or sees me defer on a book as I have added many at different times following a read on a specific subject, discussion or recommendation but the biggest pr..."

Didn't your mother warn you to stay away from libraries?

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

No only pubs :)

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Just realised pubs may not mean much to some members: public houses = drinks bar.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Good ole pub's, a dying thing over here in Australia, more bars and lounges now, a new generation!

[Robert]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Good ole pub's, a dying thing over here in Australia, more bars and lounges now, a new generation!"

In my day they were taverns. Bars now--much more respectable.

[Lilo]

I am also drowning in TBRs. My latest course of action is to have about half a dozen of books lined up to be read as absolute priorities and pick other books at random to be read in between.

And don't you guys spend so much time in pubs, bars, and lounges.

Btw, be careful to use the expression "public house" in Germany. There it might be mistaken for something else. In Germany, at least in older times, this was a synonym for "brothel". ("Pub" is o.k.)

Special warning to Geevee, who knowing that not everyone might understand "pub", might ask for a "public house" in Germany. LOL.

[Lilo]

Correction: I gave the wrong link to this discussion about that "Pfaffenhofen under the Swastika" book. Jim Snowden has already given the correct link. In case you have overlooked it, the correct link is:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also please note: The discussion is not on Jim Snowden's GR author page blog but on his group "Jim Snowden Q&A group about Summer of Long Knives", discussion "The Real History of the Third Reich in the 1930s"

Would be nice if some of you joined this discussion or just went there to read the comments. Jim has done a lot of research. All his info is very interesting. And this discussion of the book "Pfaffenhofen under the Swastika" provides info you will hardly find elsewhere.