Books & Discussion on the Holocaust Showing 201-250 of 1,027

[Lilo]

Cate wrote: "Will do."

I'll read your review. That is probably all I'll be able to stomach.

[Lilo]

Helen wrote: "I feel the same way too. Still, it's a subject that I return to again and again. How can any human being lose his--or her--humanity to the point that they can commit such crimes to another human be..."

I also feel the same way. I intend to read as many Holocaust memoir as possible. Yet, for some reason, I cannot get myself yet to read about these "furies". Just picturing them turns my stomach.

[Lilo]

@ Helen:

Neither my classmate nor her older sister (who I also ran into occasionally) ever talked about it. We rarely talked anything other than necessities. Their mother owned a specialty store. She, btw., was a nice and friendly person, who lived to almost 100 years old and worked in her store almost up to her death. I didn't understand how such a nice woman could have been married to such a man. (There is more of this in my memoir, which will hopefully hit the market at some time. I am presently battling with the final edit.)

As you probably know, the subject of the Third Reich and the Holocaust was (and probably still is) a tabu in Germany.

However, I still have an acquaintance, daughter of "Mitlaeufer"(=run with the crowd)-Nazis. I am still in loose contact with her as I had played with her in the sand, when she was 2-3 and I was 4-5 years old, and I also had some contact with her in later years as she and her (then) husband belonged to the same club as I did. She keeps phoning me from time to time. Then, 2 mos ago, I learned that she was a close relative of the aforementioned war criminal. I dared to mention his crimes, and she said that she knew nothing about it. Actually, I was not sure if I could believe her.

Today, she called me again, and I once more touched the subject. The outcome was very interesting, and I will report about it asap. (Not tonight, as it is already 1.30 a.m.)

I spent all evening to write a loooooong comment answering a long comment of Travelin, which was posted on the "Introduce Yourself" thread of this group. Since this subject actually belongs in this thread here (LAND, AIR & SEA ... Holocaust), I will copy my answer onto this thread here.

[Lilo]

@ Travelin:

You don't sound ungrateful, and I am not the least bit touchy. I think it is important to discuss these issues, and discussing means voicing different opinions and stating how they had been built.

I personally had not heard any rumors. I only heard my family members, the widow downstairs, and family friends mention that there had been some rumors about mass killings, but nobody had believed them for being so utterly unbelievable.

These conversations took place RIGHT AFTER the war, when the radio had informed about the mass killings, the widow downstairs had come running upstairs, and everybody was totally shocked and shattered by the horrific news. I somewhat later heard these rumors also mentioned when my family, still very upset, discussed the topic with friends, who were equally upset. These friends said the same thing. They (a lawyer and his family) had more friends and contacts than we had. So when these lawyer-family friends were saying that there had been some rumors but nobody had believed them, they were talking about a larger group of people -- all non-Nazis, of course, as non-Nazis would have known better than to mention any such rumors to Nazis, and Nazis (who may or may not have heard the same rumors) would have never mentioned them to non-Nazis.

Any (usually unwanted by non-Nazis) conversation between Nazis and non-Nazis was either unrelated to politics, or it was some bragging by the Nazis about Hitler's accomplishments or expression of faith that Hitler was going to win the war. Non-Nazis had to be careful not to contradict the Nazis in any way, or they would be in trouble. Even showing any signs of disdain could be highly dangerous. So, for instance, could my mother not let on that she had to throw up when two SS-brothers (relatives of our landlady) bragged to her about throwing Jewish children onto the pavement from 4th-floor windows. She could only hope that her hasty excuse to depart from the (unwanted and one-sided) conversation (that took place on the street, next to the duplex where we lived) would not have any repercussions. (Luckily, it hadn't.)

I do not have the slightest idea what these rumors were and if they were related to Dachau. I just know that they were related to mass-killings. Yet I do not know to what extension of mass-killings. The adults just said that there had been some rumors and that nobody had believed them because they had been totally unbelievable. They did not specify.

I only briefly saw "Mein Kampf" when my family had been forced to buy it. They made a negative comment about it and put it away. I am rather sure nobody of our family ever read it. They were overfed with Hitler's and Goebbels's speeches and felt nauseated by them. I remember that they were always eager to listen to the beginning of such speeches for in case there was some important news, but they rarely listened to them until the end. I especially remember my family members "shutting up" Goebbels whom they found intolerable to listen to. Yet they were also very annoyed with Hitler's speeches, which they may or may not have listened to until the end. (Hitler did not talk as often als Goebbels.)

My family members kept saying that Hitler's and Goebbels's speeches were all "propaganda". The word "brainwash" did not exist at the time.

I very faintly remember the expression "final solution", and I equally very faintly remember that my family discussed where Hitler wanted to send all the Jews, how horrible it must be for them to be sent to a strange, in all probability, not very desirable place. If they word "deportation" had been used (which I do not remember), I probably would have asked the meaning of the word and would have been told. This issue is only very faint in my memory. All I have in my brain is the vision of Hitler intending to send Jews to undesirable, barren areas somewhere in the east where it wasn't nice to live and where they didn't want to be.

As I said before, there were no Jews (left???) in my hometown. But I "knew what they looked like", because there was a poster-drawing of a Jew not too far from where we lived. He looked very ugly with a crooked nose. But I, nevertheless, felt sorry for this "unknown Jew". This was probably because my family members sympathized with Jews, but I do not remember any related remarks or conversations.

Towards the end of the war, our family members (like everybody in our area -- according to Wikipedia NOT all over Germany) had to obtain a document of "Aryan Lineage". It was difficult to prove that one was "purebred". My family members were all able to obtain the necessary birth certificates and other documents. Nevertheless, my mother was suspected to have Jewish ancestry (which she hadn't) because of her curved nose. So she had to produce additional documents, and the whole family was terribly upset. This is when I first realized what catastrophe it would be if you were (partly) Jewish. You were an outcast, would lose your food ration stamps, and if bad came to worse, you might end up being sent to Dachau, which was a terrible place to be and where old and fragile people might even die.

I do not know if the average German would have (or even could have) heard what was said in the Reichstag. However, I believe that Hitler and Goebbles might have said similar in other speeches on the radio. The "annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe" would definitely not have been understood as "mass killings". Hitler as well as Goebbels were forever ranting against the Jews. They were forever exaggerating anything that had to do with Jews. They were forever exaggrating ANYTHING. I am sure nobody who had a few working brain cells took anything they said at face value. This was "propaganda", that is, "hot air". And since nobody knew about any plan to build gas chambers, I don't think that people even took any of this annihilation-talk seriously, if only for the simple reason that it does not appear very practicable to annihilate millions of people within a country (without having a regular war front).

If you have a chance (maybe on youtube), listen to a few of Hitler's and Goebbels's speeches. Don't just read them. Listen to them. Then imagine you did not know the outcome. And then ask yourself if you were inclined to take all this ranting verbally.

Continued in next comment. (I had trouble with copying.)

[Lilo]

Previous comment continued:
---------------------------

As you say, by 1939 there were comparatively few Jews in Germany. This means, many must have left the country by then. Most Germans assumed most Jews to be rich, or at least, well to do. So I assume that many Germans

might have thought that Jews were free to leave Germany and, thus, could take care of their problem with Hitler. Yet this is only my assumption. I never heard anything of the like. Maybe the average German thought: 'If the Jews are not wanted here, why don't they leave?' I don't think that the average German was aware of the fact that other countries had immigration-quotas that were full. Maybe this contributed to the complacency of many Germans towards the ranting against the Jews. I don't know. It's just a thought.

How many Germans chose consciously to keep on fighting for a genocidal madman? Well, first of all, as I keep telling, most did not know about the genocide. Secondly, the numbers were dwindling when the war got nasty. Yet they had no real choice. Deserters did not have good chances. If caught, they were hanged, if not caught, chances were they starved or froze to death. The only ones who would have had a fair chance were the generals. They could have defected with a whole battallion (or whatever their units were called). Yet generals were quite often from an officer dynasty. And these people were rigid. They were brainwashed by their ancestors to be true to their fatherland, whoever ruled it.

The anti-Nazi military commander of my hometown, for instance (whose wife was acquainted with my mother), ... I just decided I won't tell you. Can't give away everything that's in my memoir. :-)

And don't forget: Germans have a certain trait to be rigid, obey rules and commands, and follow a leader. Besides, there is a huge percentage of stupid people in any population, and they tend to believe anything an accepted leader tells them, especially when he says it loud enough and often enough, and makes them feel important.

I am always glad to discuss these issues. This is why I originally joined our group, before I even knew what nice people I would find here to hang out with.

[Lilo]

I had trouble copying my long comment from the "Introduction Thread" to this "Holocaust Discussion" thread. Had to split in in two.

Anybody interested, please read Travelin's comment on the "Introduction Thread", to which my loooooong comment is the reply.

[Helen]

Dear Lilo,
I am incredibly grateful to you for publishing these riveting comments. I only know a little bit about what it must have been like to be a German in those times--things I have learned about from reading Gunter Grass, and Hans Fallada. I look forward to reading your memoir.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Lilo wrote: "I had trouble copying my long comment from the "Introduction Thread" to this "Holocaust Discussion" thread. Had to split in in two.

Anybody interested, please read Travelin's comment on the "Intro..."

Thanks Lilo - we appreciate the views and insight.

[Lilo]

Thank you, Helen and Geevee, for your comments.

Today I have something to tell, which I am sure will interest all of you.

While I never had any friendship with children of "bad Nazis", in the neighborhood where I grew up, I had a friendship with two girls, both daughters of so-called "Mitlaeufer"-Nazis (= run-with-the-crowd-Nazis). The one girl, who was my age, I lost out of sight, once I grew older. Found her again, more than half a century later, was invited for coffee, met her husband (who must have been 10 years older than her), and found him making remarks about Americans and other non-Germans that let me assume that he was a die-hard Nazi (probably a member of the Hitler-Youth while he was a teenager). We have since exchanged a couple of Christmas cards, and that was it. I no longer have contact.

The other girl, 2 years younger than I am, had been too young for a real pre-school friendship, but I had played with her in the sand, for her family had a sandbox, and we hadn't. Grown up, I met her again as we were were both members in the same social club. I didn't have too much in common with her, but she obviously liked me. I was acquainted with her and her husband, and we occasionally met at social events. Then at some time, about 30 years ago, I ran into her, and she was a mess. Her husband had left her for another woman, and she couldn't cope with it. To make a long story short: She hasn't been able to cope with it to this day, and she calls me every few months from Germany. The talk is usually about her ex-husband. Needless to say that we never talked about the Third Reich.

Then, last July, when she called again, I asked her the name of somebody who had lived in our street, as I had not been able to recall the name. (I needed the name for my memoir.) So while talking about the neighborhood, I learned that she and her family had not just been neighbors, but had been close relatives of the SS-war criminals mentioned in my memoir. I had not known this before.

And then I did what no "normal" German does. I asked her if she had been aware of her relatives committing these horrible crimes. She seemed surprised and said no, she had not known. I did not know what to think.

Then yesterday, she called me again. And again I did what no "normal" German does. I brought the subject up again and asked her if her parents had ever talked about the Third Reich, WWII, and the Holocaust. She said that they had rarely said anything about it. Then I asked her again what she actually knew about her relatives' war crimes, and she replied that she had known that the one (non-blood) relative had been executed by the Allies, but she had not known anything about the other one (or the other two). The other one (I had learned from a local historian) had shot himself in April 1945, somewhere away from home, but then I found in the internet that a Polish court had looked for him until the 1990s, when he was assumed dead. (His brother, who I am not 100% sure if involved in these crimes, had lived to a ripe old age as a successful business owner.)

She then mentioned that she had told her son about our phone conversation of July, and he had said that this was awful (referring to that these brothers had bragged to my mother about throwing Jewish children onto the pavement from 4th-floor windows).

I then asked her if she had seen the TV-series Holocaust, and she replied "no". I then asked her if she had read any books about the Holocaust or WWII or the Third Reich. She again replied "no".

I then asked her to get some books from the local library (suggesting a few titles) and inform herself, but she declined. Said she was too old to wish to burden herself with such things. I asked her again, said I would like to discuss these books with her, but her answer remained "no".

I then asked her if it was o.k. to keep talking with her about this issue, and she said "yes". However, I assume that she only said this out of politeness.

In the end, I said that I think that we owe it to the victims of the Holocaust to inform ourselves about this infamous part of German history, and that, at least, her son should inform himself if she didn't feel up to it because of her age. (She is 71.)

I then kept talking about that it was inconceivable what people can do to other people, and she agreed. She also agreed that something like the Holocaust could happen again because there was so much evil in the human race. And then I told her that I was eager to find out what percentage of the German population was capable of committing such crimes (a rough guess would be the percentage of SS of the German population, which I haven't found out yet), and I was also eager to find out if this percentage was higher than in other nationalities, and if so, if this was in the genes or in the upbringing.

Finally, I told her that the Holocaust had started with hatemongering, and that hatemongering could be found all over the internet, and that people would have to stand up against it, because "Wehret den Anfaengen!" (Nip things in the bud.)

She then mentioned North Korea, and we both agreed that this was similar to the Third Reich. And this was, more or less, the end of our conversation.

I would say that the only surprising fact about this conversation is that it took place. And it only took place because I had forced it, disregarding all social conventions.

I would like to mention that this person's ignorance about the Third Reich, WWII, and the Holocaust is nothing unusual.

With history teachers avoiding the subject like the plague, bookstores failing to display related books, and the topic being a conversation tabu, my first comprehensive education about the Holocaust was the TV-series (which, btw, my non-Nazi mother refused to watch, because she no longer wanted to hear about this horrible time), which was broadcast in the 1980s (or 1990s?). I eventually saw some movies and documentaries (most of them in the U.S.), but I never knew that there were any related books until I happened to come across some, here in the U.S.

I joined Goodreads in April 2013 and learned how to search and buy books on Amazon. Ever since, I have been purchasing huge numbers of related books and am trying to catch up with educating myself about the subject as much as I can. I just read the Holocaust memoir "In the Face of Evil", by (my Goodreads friend) Tema Merback and her (Holocaust survivor) mother Dina Frydman Balbien. It had me in tears, and I realized that the reality of the Holocaust was even much worse than shown in the TV-series as it would be impossible to show the worst (but common) atrocities on television. I will be reviewing and recommending this book soon.

[Lilo]

Please go to the Introduction thread and read Comments 1215 and 1216. They will, most likely, interest you, and actually belong in this thread here.

[Lilo]

I just finished writing a review on the Holocaust memoir "In the Face of Evil", by Tema Merback and her mother (Holocaust survivor), Dina Frydman Balbien.

I posted the review on Goodreads and on Amazon.

This book is well written, and I recommend it to everyone in Readers of WWII group.

[Bob]

Lilo wrote: "Thank you, Helen and Geevee, for your comments.

Today I have something to tell, which I am sure will interest all of you.

While I never had any friendship with children of "bad Nazis", in the nei..."

Oh Lilo, at last I have found one of your long interesting posts. I have never before "known" a German who lived in those days. .the older German man I knew was here before the war started. It is so great to hear how your family and friends felt about the whole matter. I can understand how many of those people try to think things weren't as bad as they actually were. I feel bad that America was so hard on the Japanese Americans, but at the time I thought it was necessary. Looking back it looks like such a mistake. And of course the slavery in this country is not good to think of our countrymen doing. Luckily all of my ancestors were from the north and did not own saves. I am sure you are glad that your people were not Nazis. I guess I thought all Germans were Nazis and find your testimony shows me how wrong I was. I look forward to reading more of your writing about WWII

[Lilo]

@ Trinette: I surely am glad that none of my family (or even remote relatives) were Nazis. Yet none of them were heroes either, except, maybe, my Catholic priest granduncle who kept ranting against Hitler from the pulpit, risking to be arrested and sent to a concentration camp. His bishop, finally, had him early-retired by force, before the Gestapo would take action. (I think he had already been reported, but I am not quite sure.)

I would say that roughly (wild guess) half of the German population was against Hitler. Yet Hitler's police state was bomb-tight, and any opposition equaled suicide.

Re internment of Japanese (and Germans?) in the U.S.:
While it brought great hardship to innocent people, I think it was a necessary safety measure. If I had been Pres. Roosevelt, I would have probably done the same.

Slavery is a different subject. It was bad, really bad, but I assume not nearly as bad as the Holocaust.

Getting back to Germany. While Holocaust memoirs like "In the Face of Evil", by Tema Merback, are extremely important, I think memoirs of Germans, like "My Name was Five", by Heinz Kohler, are also very important, and even my memoir (which is of minor importance compared with the former two) will add to give a wider picture of what went on in Germany during WWII. In order to get an idea of the effect of WWII on civilians worldwide, one also needs to read memoirs of people of other countries around the world, including your memoir "From Shaniko to Pearl Harbor", which is an eye-witness account of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

As much as I like to read different genres, my TBRs for the near future are almust exclusively non-fiction books about the Third Reich and WWII, and especially Holocaust memoirs.

[Helen]

Hi, Lilo--
Your information is invaluable. So many of us want to know, "What did the average German know?" So thank you so much for opening up and writing about it!

[Bob]

Gosh Lilo, everything you know about life in Germany for a non Nazi family is of great interest. As to your memoir, it will be a valuable piece of history.

[Colin]

Trinette wrote: "Lilo wrote: "Thank you, Helen and Geevee, for your comments.

Today I have something to tell, which I am sure will interest all of you.

While I never had any friendship with children of "bad Nazis..."

Read my book The Star of Africa for a unique perspective. Also my older book, Occupation and Insurgency.

[Lilo]

I just had a thought.

It has been said so often that the Germans must have guessed what the "final solution" was meant to be. And I have kept saying that they didn't. Aside of everything that I have already said before, it just occurred to me that the correct German translation for "final solution" is actually "endgueltige Loesung". The term used by Hitler and Goebbels (and other henchmen of Hitler) was, however, "Endloesung". While "Endloesung" actually means nothing different, the "final" in "Endloesung" has no emphasis at all. "Endloesung" is more or less an adundancy of "Loesung" (solution). In order to emphasize the "final" and draw attention to it, one would have to say "endgueltige Loesung", which neither Hitler, nor Goebbels, nor any of the other upper Nazis said, as far as I know. Thus, the "End" befoere "Loesung" was not likely to draw much attention.

Assuming the Holocaust had not happened, and the term "Endloesung" would not be preoccupied, and I had to translate a text, containing the word "Endloesung" from German to English, I would probably opt for translating it into "solution" only, while I would translate "endgueltige Loesung" into "final solution". Vice versa, if I had to translate "final solution" into German, I would opt for "endgueltige Loesung", because "Endloesung" (if not preoccupied with the Holocaust) would not sound right to me. If I was a German language teacher, I probably would have critisized the word "Endloesung" in an essay as an adundancy for the word "Loesung" and would have suggested to replace it with the word "Problemloesung" ("problem solution" or "solution of the problem").

[Lilo]

I would be interested to learn how Heinz Kohler would translate the term "Endloesung" if he set aside what it had turned out to be.

[Matt]

As a German I have to say that "Endlösung" doesn't sound like a right German word to me.
The Nazis fancied acronyms and abbreviations as a part of their propaganda. Maybe the original intention was to say "endgültige Lösung" (final solution) and they shortened it to "Endlösung", similar to "geheime Staats-Polizei" (secret state police) which became "Gestapo". They could have picked "Endlös" instead, but that probably sounded too nice fro them, too innocent for German ears.
If I were to translate "Endlösung" I wouldn't bother to translate it at all. This word had been used in one context, and one context only, and it's sad enough this word even exists.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Thanks for the information Matt and your final sentence is quite right.

[Dj]

Lilo wrote: "I just had a thought.

It has been said so often that the Germans must have guessed what the "final solution" was meant to be. And I have kept saying that they didn't. Aside of everything that I h..."


I believe that it is the nature of humans to ignore or take for granted things that they are told. Sort of like in the US where we believe that socialized medicine is an absolute evil. This belief comes about because we are told this over and over again, in spite of evidence to the contrary in other nations. Nations that in general are as democratic as we are if not more so.

So in the case of Germany and the Final Solution, I am sure that there were those that knew, those that suspected by considered it not their problem, and those that believed what they were told and didn't look to deeply into it. The same as any other Nation and it's day to day issues are handled.

[Lilo]

Travelin wrote: "I have to say that many Germans I meet are very language-centric. If I begin to discuss some topic (neighborhoods for example), they will quickly tell me the German expression "we" use for that, as..."

I do not know if Germans knew about the killings of the "mentally unfit". I would not rule this out. I heard it mentioned in our family, but I do not recall if this was before or after the end of the war. And I did not hear that these killings were in any huge numbers. I heard only the fact mentioned that Hitler had "Schwachsinnige" (mentally deficient people) euthanized. And when I asked what "euthanized" meant, I was told that it meant "put to death with an injection". I do not recall any reaction of my family members. Maybe it was after the war, when they already knew about the mass killings of Jews. Or maybe I had just butted into the conversation and had missed most of the discussion.

What I remember clearly is that the mass killings of Jews only became known AFTER the end of the war. I remember this from the reactions of my family and also from the widow who lived below us. I also remember it from discussions my family members had with several of their friends, soon after these mass killings had first been announced on the radio. And if nobody in our circle of friends knew, it can be assumed that it just simply wasn't known in the general German population. There is no reason that our circle of friends should have been an exception. We were not living in a remote village. We lived in a small town, 20 miles north of Dachau, and -- as I only learned last December -- our town was a particular "Nazi-nest".

[Lilo]

Matt wrote: "As a German I have to say that "Endlösung" doesn't sound like a right German word to me.
The Nazis fancied acronyms and abbreviations as a part of their propaganda. Maybe the original intention wa..."

I am just trying to say that with "Endloesung" the "End" is less emphasized than the "final" is with "final solution". Thus it would not ring a bell with Germans as the "final" of "final solution" rings a bell now with everyone who hears it.

[Lilo]

Dj wrote: "Lilo wrote: "I just had a thought.

It has been said so often that the Germans must have guessed what the "final solution" was meant to be. And I have kept saying that they didn't. Aside of everyt..."

I agree with you, DJ. Yet I would like to add something: "didn't look too deeply into it" alleges that "looking deeply into it" one might have guessed. I don't think that one might have guessed because a genocide of this dimension has never before happened in history. Thus, halfways decent people would not get the idea that "Endloesung" (part of the never-ending blah-blah of Hitler and Goebbels) could possibly mean the murder of the Jewish population of Europe. This would have been just too far off.

Normal (halfways decent) people cannot think as bad as evil people will act.

"Those that didn't consider it their problem" definitely applies to the mistreatment and occasional murder of Jews. The general public definitely knew that Jews were being terribly mistreated and some of them murdered (beaten to death by SA thugs on the street), and many people must have disapproved but not considered it their problem. Yet what could they have done against it? Not too much!

I am sure that most non-Nazis (and some Nazis) would have been terribly upset had they known about the mass killings of Jews (as they were upset after the war). Yet again, what could they have done against it? This was a police state. Any opposition or only critisizm would have the Gestapo after them.

There was no way that dissidents could have organized themselves. The only things that Hitler had to fear was that his generals would break away and take the military with them, or that some death-defying hero would "throw a snowball" that might become an avalanche. Yet this "snowball" would have to get huge very fast, otherwise the Gestapo could handle it.

As far as the Nazis were concerned, I am not sure how they would have reacted to the extermination of Jews. Not every Nazi was a murderous criminal. Many Nazis, had they known, might have disapproved, but I don't think they would have done anything about it. They also would have been afraid of the Gestapo. Besides, their loyalty to Hitler might have been stronger than their compassion for Jews.

And there were, of course, millions of Nazis who followed their "Fuehrer" blindly and would have approved of whatever he wanted to do.

The SS were absolutely devoted to Hitler (and teir careers!), and Hitler had no reason to fear that they would turn against him. Their members were already selected for certain physical and character traits. They had to depict the German "master race", and they were proud of it. And they had to be "true men", i.e. they had to be bare of emotions and compassion. So they wouldn't have much problem with the Jews being exterminated. Many of them would even enjoy to participate in these actions themselves. Thus, they could show off how "manly" they were.

I assume that many of the SS-men knew what the "final solution" was. Yet I am sure they were to keep it a secret because Hitler did not want the general population to know. (He did have to fear his generals and possibly emerging death-defying heroes.)

Hitler and his henchmen had also kept hatemongering against the Jews for years. (Just look up the cartoons of the "Simplizissimus", which you can find in the internet.) Thus, even otherwise compassionate people viewed Jews as despicable and inferior. This brainwash worked.

Just compare it to the way people look at rats. Many people who have compassion or even love for cats and dogs have no qualms to brutally kill rats (who are intelligent animals and can be very loving as pets). They won't even bother to buy the somewhat more expensive rat poison that provides a less painful death. And there is little uproar against torturous animal experiments, when there are "only" rats involved.

Same with factory farming. Anybody should know by now that factory farming is cruel, but how many people buy the more expensive animal products that are produced humanely? And there isn't even any hatemongering against chickens, pigs, and cows. Everybody buys meat and other animal products in the supermarket, and few people care enough about the suffering of the animals, so not to buy these products. Why? Herd instinct! And not bothering "to look deeply into it".

The Germans may have been especially predestined to follow a leader and condone his crimes, or even carry them out themselves, but other nationalities are also guilty of "not considering things their problem" or "not looking deeply into things". And I do believe that whatever people do to animals they would also do to humans if these humans were labled as "inferior" and were not protected by the law.

[Lilo]

Re-reading my comment I found tons of mistakes and ugly sentence structures, but it is 3.45 a.m. and I am dead tired. So I'll leave it as it is. Grammar police, please don't arrest me.

[Dj]

Lilo wrote: "Dj wrote: "Lilo wrote: "I just had a thought.

It has been said so often that the Germans must have guessed what the "final solution" was meant to be. And I have kept saying that they didn't. Asid..."

I am going to have to disagree with your statement about genocide on that scale never happening before in History. Unless maybe you tack on by a Modern Nation. I am quite sure that the Carthaginian's and perhaps a number of the opponents of the Mongols might disagree with the assessment.

[Lilo]

@ Travelin and Dj:

I believe you. I had been wondering about it myself, but I had read it somewhere.

So, let's agree that a genocide of this dimension had never happened in a "civilized" nation, in modern times, and thus, would not have been expected to happen.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

In regards to modern genocide these books may interest some member currently discussing the Holocaust:

by David Olusoga

by Jeremy Sarkin

And leats not forget the Armenian Genocide by Turkey during WWI:

by Peter Balakian

by Grigoris Balakian

[Lilo]

Thank you, Rick for recommending these books. I just checked out the first and read all its reviews. I had no idea that the Holocaust had a German forerunner. I am shocked.

I'll check out the other books later as I have to do some cooking.

[Lilo]

I just glanced over the other books. I can only say: He who knows people, loves animals.

[Colin]

Regarding a Holocaust, read our new book, Four War Boer, and the creation of the concentartion camps in South Africa, and the extermination of civilians thorugh starvation in 1899-1903.

[Betty]

I agree that not everyone in Germany knew what was going on with all the different people groups that were "taken away". We also need to remember that Hitler also killed 5 million that weren't Jews. In the biography about a woman who lived in Berlin through the whole war, she was arrested by the Russians when they took the city. If I remember right, she was in a Russian prison for 9 yrs. She was a regular house wife, and when she asked what she was charged with, they told her "for the genocide all the Jews". She was shocked and didn't believe them. She knew that all the Jews had been put in work camps, but had no idea that they were being murdered.
Then in the autobiography, about a Jewish woman who survived with false I.D. and even married a soldier. Her family was deported, but she thought they were going to a work camp in Poland. What really happened was that they were shipped to the Warsaw Ghetto and later sent to a concentration camp and killed. She had no idea till after the war. The family went, believing what they were told: Germany needed workers for the war, the Jews fit the bill, they would be released after the war was over. Lies are powerful. If they hadn't believed the lies, maybe more of them would have resisted.
About Genocide in history before WW2: In my opinion, a lot of civilians in history were victims of their time, and the wars of their time. Sieges resulted in starvation and death for thousands at a time. Sacking armies would slaughter people for no reason. The rest would be taken as slaves back to the homeland. Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is a perfect example of this. I don't consider this as genocide. I call it war. A lot of dictators have committed the genocide of millions of people. But, genocide cannot be applied to victims of war. Just my two cents. :)

[Lilo]

Thank you all for your contributions. You might not hear from me for a while. I am about to dive into the final edit of my memoir.

[Helen]

Good luck, Lilo!

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Pop back when you are done Lilo :)

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Good luck with your final editing, I hope it all goes well.

[Lilo]

Thank you, Helen, Gevee, and Rick. I am about to go into hiding.

[Alan]

Hello all - I am looking for my next good read on the topic of the holocaust. I have so far been reading accounts / memoirs of the various camps for example: escape from sobibor, survivor (Sam pivnik), treblinka (chil rajchman), auschwitz and the final solution, if this is a man / the truce (primo Levi). The last being my favourite so far - can anyone recommend similar books to the above? Non-fiction obviously. Thanks, all recommendations gratefully received.

Ps if anyone can recommend books that are available on iBooks then even better (very limited from what I can see).. Cheers.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Alan I posted one for you on your original post but it I don't think it is electronically available so I wonder if this would appeal to you. It has had some very good reviews from both from GR members and outside:

by Thomas Harding

Also at the top of this page on the right hand side you can see all the books people have mentioned on this thread. Here is in full too: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/menti...
Let me know if this helps. If you have any trouble with the links please ask. Cheers.

[Lilo]

Alan wrote: "Hello all - I am looking for my next good read on the topic of the holocaust. I have so far been reading accounts / memoirs of the various camps for example: escape from sobibor, survivor (Sam pivn..."

I recommend



"In the Face of Evil", by Tema Merback

[Helen]

Alan wrote: "Hello all - I am looking for my next good read on the topic of the holocaust."

Alan,
Here is a short list of some of the best nonfiction Holocaust books. But just so you know, there are some outstanding Holocaust fiction books as well. One of my all-time favorites is The Last of the Just, fiction, but written by a survivor.

Night, Elie Wiesel
Schindler's List, Thomas Keneally
Maus, Art Spiegelman
Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account by Miklós Nyiszli
The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945 by Lucy Dawidowizc
The Pianist by Władysław Szpilman
Isaac's Army: The Jewish Resistance in Occupied Poland by Matthew Brzezinski
Mila 18 by Leon Uris (fiction)
The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosiński (fiction by Holocaust survivor)
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland by Christopher R. Browning (This is about the Einsatzgruppen and is VERY disturbing reading)
The Holocaust by Bullets: A Priest's Journey to Uncover the Truth Behind the Murder of 1.5 Million Jews by Patrick Desbois (Beware. Also extremely disturbing to read.)

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Thanks for your recommendations Helen, I'm sure Alan will find a few there of value.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Thanks Helen for taking the trouble to post these, and to Lilo for her recommendation.

[Lilo]

You are welcome, Geevee.

[Lilo]

@ Helen: Thanks for all the recommendations. I'd like to read them all. I'll check them out tomorrow. And knowing myself, I'll buy a bunch of them. Just don't know when I will be able to read them. I wish the day had more than 24 hours. Yet Holocaust memoirs are on my priority TBR-list.

[Helen]

You're welcome, I hope it's helpful. They make for some very powerful reading.

I should have also added The Bielski Brothers: The True Story of Three Men Who Defied the Nazis, Built a Village in the Forest, and Saved 1,200 Jews, by Peter Duffy.

[Colin]

Alan wrote: "Hello all - I am looking for my next good read on the topic of the holocaust. I have so far been reading accounts / memoirs of the various camps for example: escape from sobibor, survivor (Sam pivn..."

Try my book Occupation and Insurgency, it has interviews.

[Anne]

Alan wrote: "Hello all - I am looking for my next good read on the topic of the holocaust. I have so far been reading accounts / memoirs of the various camps for example: escape from sobibor, survivor (Sam pivn..."

The book "The Remnant" is free on Kindle today. Here is the link.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001...

[Betty]

My favorite one is ! She doesn't go to a concentration camp, but it is a great story about survival! Another one is .

[Lilo]

Betty wrote: "My favorite one is ! She doesn't go to a concentration camp, but it is a great story about survival! Another one is ."

@ Betty: Thanks for the recommendation. I just bought both books.