THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Books & Discussion on the Holocaust
I am not sure that letting myself get sucked into the specifics of "Collective Guilt" is the most productive path to understanding. As a Lawyer, your profession is one of the specifics of specific guilt. I understand that approach.
The inescapable facts are that:
1. Hitler nor his party nor his politics invented antisemitism.
2. The People of Germany knew what they wanted to know. The mere fact of knowing what is not to be spoken, means that you know.
The holocaust was the logical,if extreme, result of existing hatreds. Did the exact same degree of hatred seethe in every breast? This is not a necessary condition. Nor much of a cover for those who may have been other wise Innocent.
This being a good time to mention that there were some number who did, or tried to say "No". If there has not yet been a discussion of the lamed-vavniks, there should be.
For too many; there was enough willingness to, at worst, participate, at best pretend, that the net result was a society that was deeply complicit. Some threshold number of Germans, and not just Germans had long been socialized to accept that it was allowed to do these things to these people.
"I simply cannot or will not assume universal guilt." By all means stand by this. It is a legitimate case.
It does not answer any of my questions. It does not speak to the answers that might help to disallow the next holocaust.
Assuredly, understanding of antisemitism, and the long list of other despised peoples, is critical. I don't begin to know how to prevent recurrences. But, perhaps naively, I find two events instructive.An estimated 13% of the Greek population died because of the explicit German-Italian policy of starvation. Far more would have died had not the Turks intervened to convince the Brits to lift the blockade and the Germans to allow distribution of foods transshipped through Turkey by Greek-Americans. Then in 1999, the so-called Greek-Turkish earthquake diplomacy was born when Greece was the first country to come to Turkey's aid after a devastating earthquake.
Ancient hatreds may be overcome sometimes with decency.
Rees makes the point that Germany was a deeply anti-Semitic nation before Hitler came to power; he also makes the point that, confusingly, for a part of the population it's an abstract sort of hated ('we hate those guys, not you, you're a good Jew' pops up early on on a number of occasions). If you've already one foot in the circle...
Liz wrote: "I was 18 when I saw the Holocaust Museum at Dachau and have spent the ensuing 50 plus years reading, trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of the how, why and who. That reading, together with 40 of those years spent as a lawyer, has created an aversion to labelling, to collective guilt by association or age and place of birth rather than individual culpability. I offer no excuses for the guilty and am appalled at the numbers who faced no consequences. I simply cannot or will not assume universal guilt. "I know that as a youngster watching the episode of The World at War that covered Genocide had an effect on me and that I have spent the next 50 odd years, to quote you "trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of the how, why and who." (The effects of the loss in the Great War haunt my thinking somewhat.)
On this I do not hold the German people guilty by collective association. I think I understand the pressures of those times. Lets be honest in certain circles we tend clam up given the circumstances even when living in open societies such as ours.
Jonny wrote: "Rees makes the point that Germany was a deeply anti-Semitic nation before Hitler came to power; he also makes the point that, confusingly, for a part of the population it's an abstract dirty of hated ('we hate those guys, not you, you're a good Jew' pops up early on on a number of occasions). If you've already one foot in the circle... "You raise a good point that Germany was a deeply anti-Semitic nation before Hitler came to power. In a sense we should say the same for all of Europe but just maybe the culmination of that pan European anti-Semitism came to its conclusion during WW2 as the actions of Nazis forced nations under their control to do "the dirty work" as it were. Collusion with the Nazis is well known in occupied areas. Looking back to the deep past we had deep anti-Semitism in most nations.
I do need to read Rees.
I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for the manner in which they have calmly and rationally discussed such a divisive and horrible subject. I have found all the recent posts very interesting and providing much food for thought.And yes 4ZZZ I do think you will find Rees a compelling read.
Facts that I can't let go of: The persecution of the Jews well ahead of the establishment of extermination camps; the destruction of ALL synagogues with firefighters standing by to protect the nearby buildings; the mass firing of Jews from jobs, of Jewish children being banned from schools; of the widespread pillage of Jewish assets, companies and even children's toys (one survivor's memoir talks of a non-Jewish neighbor coming into her home to take out the piano when the family was arrested) ... well maybe the average German didn't know about the gas chambers, but the average German certainly knew of the steps that occurred beforehand.
When considering the collective knowledge of societies regarding the Holocaust, I know of the secrecy issue, but there is no doubt that even above the Germans, the Austrians were far more active, knowledgeable and participatory in the Final Solution, for many reasons. It seems that Hitler, and perhaps even Himmler trusted the Austrian senior officer corps more than the Germans on the payroll. I do not know why, but I can only assume that was because Austria was always far more openly anti Jewish throughout its history than Germany. For this I have no explanation.
Jonny wrote: "Rees makes the point that Germany was a deeply anti-Semitic nation before Hitler came to power; he also makes the point that, confusingly, for a part of the population it's an abstract sort of hate ('we hate those guys, not you, you're a good Jew' pops up early on on a number of occasions). If you've already one foot in the circle..."Does Rees subscribe to the Goldhagen thesis then ? :o
"Camp SS Leaders frequently reprimanded their men for slovenly dress and poor posture, for chatting with inmates, for stealing from SS stores, and for reading, or worse still for falling asleep on duty" Reading!!!!
4triplezed wrote: ""Camp SS Leaders frequently reprimanded their men for slovenly dress and poor posture, for chatting with inmates, for stealing from SS stores, and for reading, or worse still for falling asleep on ..."Dangerous things these books, might cause you to question the morality of your actions...
Dimitri wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Rees makes the point that Germany was a deeply anti-Semitic nation before Hitler came to power; he also makes the point that, confusingly, for a part of the population it's an abstrac..."
From the wiki, it looks like...thanks for expanding the to but list mate.
I like a book that gives me a different perspective. I'm half way through Auschwitz: The Nazis & the 'Final Solution' by Laurence Rees. It's excellent and although it obviously focuses on Auschwitz it covers a lot more. Rees says that 'ordinary Germans', whether they knew the exact details or not, knew that terrible things were happening to Jews, that their property was being taken, that they were being taken away and not returning. They knew enough.
I wasn't expecting to read about the people and authorities of the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey), which are a bit closer to home for me. While the authorities strongly resisted sanctions against their Freemasons, they barely lifted a finger to help their Jewish inhabitants, and mostly "cooperated promptly" with the Nazis, imposing restrictions and eventually deporting them.
“We can't know for certain what would have happened if Guernsey authorities had protested vehemently at the deportation of Auguste Spitz, Marianne Grunfeld and Therese Steiner*. Probably it would have made little practical difference - though it would remain to this day a proud moment in the history of Guernsey - but there still remains the possibility that speaking out at the time might have saved the lives of these three women who had sought sanctuary in the United Kingdom. That fact on its own is enough to make this incident an indelible stain on the island's past.”
*all ended up in Auschwitz, none survived.
And the Channel Islanders (or at least the population of Jersey) will wring their hands over Russian PoWs, and the camp on Alderney, but that issue is very efficiently airbrushed..
Similarly, outrage among the clergy in Germany was enough to halt the (highly secret that everyone knew about) euthanasia program targeting the disabled. No such level of outrage over the (highly secret but everyone knew about it) persecution of the Jews, however.
I remember in reading in one book of a Jewish woman or girl who managed to escape to France prior to the war breaking out and then across to the Channel islands once the Germans invaded France only to be later arrested by a Bobby and handed to the German occupational forces once the Germans hand landed. The Bobby had been ordered by the Germans to arrest the Jewish woman and bring her in, very sad story.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I remember in reading in one book of a Jewish woman or girl who managed to escape to France prior to the war breaking out and then across to the Channel islands once the Germans invaded France only..."According to Wikipedia, most of the 30-50 Jews not evacuated from the islands lived relatively unmolested, some with forged documents. The Germans were "alerted to" the three women mentioned above as deported to Auschswitz by one of the women, Steiner, citing The British Channel Islands Under German Occupation, 1940-1945 by Paul Sanders, which I've not read.
Liz wrote: "According to Wikipedia, most of the 30-50 Jews not evacuated from the islands lived relatively unmolested..."Interesting. Laurence Rees makes no mention of any Jews remaining on the islands. He says “The remaining Jews on the Channel Islands were deported the following year... together with others taken from a broad spectrum of Channel Islanders, including ‘Freemasons’, ‘former officers of the armed forces’ and ‘suspected Communists’. ” Aside from one, another Jew, they were sent to internment camps in France and their treatment “though extremely unpleasant, was not comparable with the suffering imposed on the inmates of Buchenwald or Auschwitz.”
On a more uplifting note, I’ve just been reading about Denmark where 95% of the Jews in the country escaped, with help from locals - and one or two Germans.
My "knowledge" of the Channel Islands is just about limited to the novel The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Ann Shaffer, which I believe has a plot line similar to that mentioned by Aussie Rick, so I checked Wikipedia.Denmark's stats are impressive. As I recall, the king's firm resistance and geographical closeness to Sweden played a part.
This one's quite (brutally) knowledgable on the foreign forced labour experience on Jersey:
Model Occupation: The Channel Islands Under German Rule, 1940-1945 by Madeleine Bunting
Liz wrote: "My "knowledge" of the Channel Islands is just about limited to the novel The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Ann Shaffer, which I believe has a..."Rees’ main source is
Jews in the Channel Islands During the German Occupation 1940-1945 by Frederick Cohen. I haven’t read it but I have it (and Dimitri’s suggestion) on my to read list. One day...
Need to read The Model Occupation: The Channel Islands Under German Rule 1940-1945, as well as Charles Cruickshank's German Occupation of the Channel Islands. Sigh. TBR list just keeps growing.
Looks like that list is growing Liz... the curse of the WW2 group!
One short month and my list has doubled.
Liz wrote: "One short month and my list has doubled."I’m afraid there’s no hope for you now... :-)
Liz wrote: "My "knowledge" of the Channel Islands is just about limited to the novel The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Ann Shaffer, which I believe has a..."As regards Denmark the policy of reluctant co-operation sort-of worked until August 1943 when gradually the deteriorating relationship came to a head. The Germans declared martial law, the Danish government ceased functioning but refused to resign, and the Danish Navy scuttled 32 of its ships while another 13 managed to escape to Sweden.
A month or so later the planned round-up of the country's Jews was frustrated when a disillutioned German maritime attache, Georg Duckwitz, leaked the plan. Most were hidden in time by Danish civilians and later smuggled out of the country.
Rees suggests that the Danish miracle may actually have been part of Nazi design - the Danes and Swedes riff an entire country of Jews without any need for deportation. It's an interesting thesis.
I’ve finished and “reviewed” Auschwitz: The Nazis & the 'Final Solution' by Laurence Rees. It’s an interesting book and an interesting concept - Rees tries to tell the story of the wider Holocaust through the history of Auschwitz, and mostly succeeds. Includes some very frank material from interviews with camp guards. It would probably be a good place to start for someone wanting to learn about the Holocaust, while still being interesting for those with more knowledge.
Jonny wrote: "Rees suggests that the Danish miracle may actually have been part of Nazi design - the Danes and Swedes riff an entire country of Jews without any need for deportation. It's an interesting thesis."I'm inclined to be sceptical, since by that time they were well into mass murder everywhere else. But willing to be corrected.
I agree with Derek. And this is why I'm not a fan of the Rees book. I think he works too hard to come up with fresh analyses. By the time of the Danish rescue, the plan was no longer to kick Jews out of Germany (the Jews were allowed to exit the country at least until 1939 -- the voyage of the MS St. Louis being one example) but to murder them everywhere. The Final Solution was formalized as policy in January 1942. Hitler ordered the arrest of Danish Jews in 1943. Their rescue took place shortly thereafter.
Hi all, I've just finished a great book, The Tattooist of Auschwitz by Heather Morris. I cant find it mentioned in this thread already, but I apologise if it has already been shared.
It's a horrible story as this whole topic is, but through it comes a love story and a tale of hope and strength.
Well worth a read!
The Tattooist of Auschwitz
Steve wrote: "Hi all, I've just finished a great book, The Tattooist of Auschwitz by Heather Morris. I cant find it mentioned in this thread already, but I apologise if it has already been shared.
It's a horri..."
I've heard only good things about that book Steve, glad to hear it was worth the read.
This story popped up this morning; thought it could be if interest to somehttps://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/...
Jonny wrote: "This story popped up this morning; thought it could be if interest to somehttps://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/......"
I am unsure but I think Treasures from the Attic: the Extraordinary Story of Anne Frank's Family by Mirjam Pressler detailed how in 1933 Frank's mother and brother went to Switzerland, but Frank opted for Holland because his mother-in-law was there and subsequently refused to go to Switzerland.
While the article says as early as 1938, that was late. Frank had worked in the US twice, and an application in 1933 might have been more timely.
Frank never had a chance. He was not a medical doctor, nuclear physicist, etc. Most people do not realize that when the liberals in America laud over the great leadership if President FDR, they do not know or fail to acknowledge that he was a true Demcocrat. That means that he was different from today's mindless, liberal and hypocritical Democrats.
The Dems back then were the party of Jim Crow, the leftovers of the Confederacy, the KKK, and "Separate but Equal" and FDR was their champion. he was not going to allow anyone into the country unless he could be persuaded that they could benefit the military in some way. he wanted to be reelected, so why abandon his base? Even in 1936 FDR knew there would be a war, due to stirrings in Europe and China.
FDR was of the same mind as Henry Ford and the KKK, although to his credit he did oppose outright violence against anyone. He still believed in the segregated nation and military, he believed in keeping Jews out of the country (he and Henry Morgenthau came to several disagreements and see SS St. Louis incident).
Those who laud over FDR's domestic programs such as the TVA fail to realize that WW II was what eventually brought the USA out of the Great Depression and started the great prosperity period, despite the high cost of the war.
I recently had the opportunity to read The Crate: A Story Of War, A Murder, And Justice by Deborah Vadas LevisonThis book can quite readily fit into a number of different genres including a discussion of the Holocaust in particular as it affected Hungarian Jews.
You can read my review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I just finished reading the book Auschwitz Lullaby by Mario Escobar which I received courtesy of Thomas Nelson through #NetGalley. It was a fascinating novelization of the life of Helene Hannemann, A German woman married to a Romani and transferred with her family to Auschwitz Birkenau. You can read my book here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...The English version of this book is being officially released on August 7th, 2018.
Two great reviews Bev, thanks for posting the details of the books and your reviews for other group members.
I recently finished reading the novel The Dutch Wife by Ellen Keith which tells the story of a young Dutch woman captured by the Germans who in order to survive agrees to work in a brothel in Buchenwald. Her story is intertwined with the story of a German Camp officer and also the story of a young man in 1970's Argentina who is imprisoned in circumstances similar to a concentration camp. You can read my review here. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Some people may be interested in this story:http://www.marinamaral.com/blog/2016/..."
Thank you for sharing the link.
I have finished KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps by Nikolaus Wachsmann and have posted a review for those of you that are interested. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...I know a few who are members of our group have read, made comment or "liked" the review and I thank you all sincerely. BUT! I am not sure I gave this book as much justice as it deserved. With that in mind I am only a lay reader and not a professional reviewer by any stretch of the imagination. That's my excuse anyway.
I had had plans of posting interesting points from the book but as time went on I found myself having to take a break from the book, the subject can be heart rending and in truth I was getting rather angry at times. I also had a bit going on that got in the way of regular reading. With that I thought it best to take a breath and just get on with it when time allowed or I was in the "mood" as it were.
I will read The Holocaust: A New History by Lawrence Rees eventually but not too soon. I may even make that my last ever reading of a specific book on the subject. I make the ripe old age of 60 next year and think it is time to move on from the subject. But *sigh* one never knows do they. A good book is a good book after all.
I have just come across mention of Under Fire: Women and World War II by Eveline Buchheim in an obituary for one of the Dutch resistance fighters, Freddie Oversteegen, whose story is recounted and who died this month.
4triplezed wrote: "I have finished KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps by Nikolaus Wachsmann and have posted a review for those of you that are interested. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show......"I find I have to balance the reading about dark heavy topics with something lighter.
4triplezed wrote: "I have finished KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps by Nikolaus Wachsmann and have posted a review for those of you that are interested. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show......"I thought it was an excellent review Zed, and more importantly good for you, persevering with what must have been a difficult (and long) read. I've promised myself I'll read it soon, although it's unlikely to be this year.
I'm with what Tony said :)
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World (other topics)The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World (other topics)
The Unspeakable: Breaking my Family's Silence surrounding the Holocaust (other topics)
Something Beautiful Happened: A Story of Survival and Courage in the Face of Evil (other topics)
If This is a Woman: Inside Ravensbrück: Hitler's Concentration Camp for Women (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jonathan Freedland (other topics)Nicola Hanefeld (other topics)
Yvette Manessis Corporon (other topics)
Sarah Helm (other topics)
Sarah Helm (other topics)
More...
Everyone knew of shops violently closed, houses emptied synagogues ransacked pillaged and burned.
Everyone knew some one who with their entire family disa..."
I have contributed to this discussion devolving into opinions. My apologies.
I was 18 when I saw the Holocaust Museum at Dachau and have spent the ensuing 50 plus years reading, trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of the how, why and who. That reading, together with 40 of those years spent as a lawyer, has created an aversion to labelling, to collective guilt by association or age and place of birth rather than individual culpability. I offer no excuses for the guilty and am appalled at the numbers who faced no consequences. I simply cannot or will not assume universal guilt.